Would any of you support Sharia law in Ireland?

Shinji Ikari

O.K. First let me say two things. I am an atheist. Secondly I genuinely am not starting this thread to attack Islam. I just want to see what are the opinions of Irish Muslims in regards to Sharia law.
Now, I find it repugnant to see people being publically caned and jeered at by vicious mobs for transgressions which would not even constitute an offence in Ireland.

Now there is a desire among some British Muslims to introduce Sharia law into the U.K. Would you think it would be a good idea to introduce Sharia law or even certain aspects of Sharia law into Ireland. Again I must stress I'm not attacking Islam. In fact I may end up agreeing with you on some issues.

Notatoxford

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

Would you think it would be a good idea to introduce Sharia law or even certain aspects of Sharia law into Ireland.

No

PDN

I would have no problem with some aspects of Sharia law applying in Ireland (eg in property disputes) providing that all parties concerned freely agreed to be governed by such regulations.

Legally or morally I don't see that would be any different to footballers agreeing to be bound by the rules of the game, or pool players mutually agreeing beforehand whether the black ball can be potted into any pocket or a designated pocket on the pool table, or parties in industrial arbitration agreeing to be bound by the results of the arbitration process.

Providing it is a mutual arrangement, and there is no attempt to usurp irish law, such an arrangement seems eminently sensible. I think it is a shame the Archbishop of Canterbury was vilified by the gutter press for advocating something similar in the UK.

wes

Nope, not really. The current laws fine (more or less).

If people want to settle civil disputes via it, then I see no reason why they can't.

FriarMo

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

O.K. First let me say two things. I am an atheist. Secondly I genuinely am not starting this thread to attack Islam. I just want to see what are the opinions of Irish Muslims in regards to Sharia law.
Now, I find it repugnant to see people being publically caned and jeered at by vicious mobs for transgressions which would not even constitute an offence in Ireland.

Now there is a desire among some British Muslims to introduce Sharia law into the U.K. Would you think it would be a good idea to introduce Sharia law or even certain aspects of Sharia law into Ireland. Again I must stress I'm not attacking Islam. In fact I may end up agreeing with you on some issues.

[.....The rule of civil law, the democratic system of representation in government, the protection of the rights of women and minorities and the freedom of thought and belief - under all of which we live here in Ireland - are not only compatible with Islamic values but are closer to the ethos and spirit of tolerance, pluralism and peace in Islam and better serve the Irish Muslim community than the undemocratic regimes and the Draconian judicial systems found in some predominately Muslim countries today]

The above was a letter sent to the Irish Times back in feb 2007 in response to an article regarding the very subject you're discussing- calls for the introduction of so called "Sharia Law" in Britain. In my mind "Sharia Law" as its practiced today particularly the penal code in no way represents the ethos of Islam and are relics of a more violent era. I completely agree with wes the laws as they stand in Ireland are generally fine and any "tweaking" should be carried out within the constitutional framework and the mechanisms in place.

wasper

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

O.K. First let me say two things. I am an atheist. Secondly I genuinely am not starting this thread to attack Islam. I just want to see what are the opinions of Irish Muslims in regards to Sharia law.
Now, I find it repugnant to see people being publically caned and jeered at by vicious mobs for transgressions which would not even constitute an offence in Ireland.

Now there is a desire among some British Muslims to introduce Sharia law into the U.K. Would you think it would be a good idea to introduce Sharia law or even certain aspects of Sharia law into Ireland. Again I must stress I'm not attacking Islam. In fact I may end up agreeing with you on some issues.

The aspects of the law that they are advocating is in regards to marriage, divorce & inheritance.
I don't think even the most fanatical ones really believe that they introduce the rest of the law in the British Isles.

hivizman

Interesting article in yesterday's Sunday Times, pointing out that some "Shari'ah courts" in Britain are using the Arbitration Act to establish that their findings can be enforced by British courts. There are many bodies that are recognised as involved in "alternative dispute resolution", including sports organisations, professional and industry bodies, and the article points out the the Jewish Beth Din has been recognised for around 100 years. So there are many precedents for "Shari'ah courts" having limited powers to resolve disputes.

merrionsq

hivizman wrote: »

There are many bodies that are recognised as involved in "alternative dispute resolution", including sports organisations, professional and industry bodies, and the article points out the the Jewish Beth Din has been recognised for around 100 years. So there are many precedents for "Shari'ah courts" having limited powers to resolve disputes.

Not quite as simple as that. Alternative dispute resolution will have to work within the existing framework of UK laws. So Sharia, as interpreted in many countries, is not an option.

E.g. that's why duelling has not been permitted for a long time.

"I don't think even the most fanatical ones really believe that they introduce the rest of the law in the British Isles."
I'd disagree with this to some extent. Most countries with a majority Muslim population have an authoritarian govt., and don't tolerate dissent as much as in the UK. Especially attempts to undermine existing law and order. In my experience I read more of Muslims in "Western" countries advocating various Sharia schemes.

hivizman

merrionsq wrote: »

Not quite as simple as that. Alternative dispute resolution will have to work within the existing framework of UK laws. So Sharia, as interpreted in many countries, is not an option.

Yes, it depends what you mean by Sharia. I guess that a lot of people think of the hudud - the extreme penalties for various offences such as adultery and theft. But there's no way that a Western court would enforce a sentence of stoning or amputation. The sorts of dispute that seem to be covered in practice in the UK's so-called sharia courts are family and inheritance issues, and some domestic problems.

merrionsq wrote: »

"I don't think even the most fanatical ones really believe that they introduce the rest of the law in the British Isles."
I'd disagree with this to some extent. Most countries with a majority Muslim population have an authoritarian govt., and don't tolerate dissent as much as in the UK. Especially attempts to undermine existing law and order. In my experience I read more of Muslims in "Western" countries advocating various Sharia schemes.

I read somewhere, but haven't got a reference to hand, that some sharia scholars would say that you can't have a full system of sharia law in a country unless the society is fully Islamic (that's not to argue that those countries that claim to apply sharia are Islamic or that the version of sharia they apply is "correct" - I just can't make that sort of judgement).

AbuBakr

hivizman wrote: »

I read somewhere, but haven't got a reference to hand, that some sharia scholars would say that you can't have a full system of sharia law in a country unless the society is fully Islamic (that's not to argue that those countries that claim to apply sharia are Islamic or that the version of sharia they apply is "correct" - I just can't make that sort of judgement).

Alhamdulillah, Islam's the fastest growing religion in Ireland. Where are all the Catholics going? Last year, 160 priests died and there were only 9 new priests. 2 new nuns to replace over 200 nuns who died. In a few years, inshallah, Ireland will be a fully Islamic country and we'll have the Sharia.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Good luck with that.

ChocolateSauce

If any part of Sharia law were ever applied to me, I would take up arms against the authority that tried.

wes

AbuBakr wrote: »

Alhamdulillah, Islam's the fastest growing religion in Ireland. Where are all the Catholics going? Last year, 160 priests died and there were only 9 new priests. 2 new nuns to replace over 200 nuns who died. In a few years, inshallah, Ireland will be a fully Islamic country and we'll have the Sharia.

Sorry, what your saying make no sense at all. In fact its nonsense. Ireland is becoming more secular, hence why there are so few new Priests etc.

Shinji Ikari

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

If any part of Sharia law were ever applied to me, I would take up arms against the authority that tried.

Agreed.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

who's coming for a pint on good friday so lads? christmas day maybe?

god bless our secular republic.

taibhse

Why are countries today bending over backwards to accomodate newcomers to societies, be they British, Irish, whatever.
Why should a country adopt certain laws from another country or religion just because people from that population migrate here.

If you go to live in another country, you abide by that country's laws and rules, simple as that.

Do you really think if an Irish people went to live in a muslim country they could start calling for Irish laws to be brought in and it would be tolerated?

Sorry but if they don't like it they don't have to stay there.

Hobbes

taibhse wrote: »

Why should a country adopt certain laws from another country or religion just because people from that population migrate here.

What about those that don't migrate here?

Shinji Ikari

taibhse wrote: »

Why are countries today bending over backwards to accomodate newcomers to societies, be they British, Irish, whatever.
Why should a country adopt certain laws from another country or religion just because people from that population migrate here.

If you go to live in another country, you abide by that country's laws and rules, simple as that.

Do you really think if an Irish people went to live in a muslim country they could start calling for Irish laws to be brought in and it would be tolerated?

Sorry but if they don't like it they don't have to stay there.

One word;Fear. People are afraid of Muslim extremists so they are bending over backwards to accommodate them. The E.U. are a bunch of pussies. The Japanese have the right idea. In Japan the guest conforms to Japanese social norms. However, the Eurocrats and British polititicians are spineless.

ChocolateSauce

MistressMord wrote: »

who's coming for a pint on good friday so lads? christmas day maybe?

god bless our secular republic.

Indeed. Now, off to Catholic-run state schools with our children!

taibhse

What about those that don't migrate here?

well if they dont migrate and are born here that makes them Irish doesn't it?
therefore they are expected to follow Irish law

ChocolateSauce

taibhse wrote: »

well if they dont migrate and are born here that makes them Irish doesn't it?
therefore they are expected to follow Irish law

I'd expect anyone in Ireland to follow Irish law.

taibhse

exactly thats the point

Agent Smith

If this Happens, Could the last Person to leave Ireland please turn out the light?

wes

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

One word;Fear. People are afraid of Muslim extremists so they are bending over backwards to accommodate them. The E.U. are a bunch of pussies.

Sorry this is nonsense. Europe is not bending over backwards for Muslims. Take this for example:

French Muslims face job discrimination

Care to explain how this fits into the whole Europe is "bending over backwards" for Muslims? Seems to me that at least in France, that certainly isn't the case.

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

The Japanese have the right idea. In Japan the guest conforms to Japanese social norms. However, the Eurocrats and British polititicians are spineless.

Japan racism 'deep and profound'

I don't think Japan is the best example personally.

As for the Brits being spinless, invading a country looking for imaginary WMDs, isn't spineless. Sure its a war crime, but it would think it would take one hell of a spine to do something like that.

Also, could please explain how the current situation with Hicham Yezza and the arrest of Rizwaan Sabir is "bending over backwards".

For all the "bending over backwards", I can easily find examples that show the opposite. Are some accomodations being made, yes they are, not all are good idea's, but to call this "bending over backwards", is at best an exageration, when there are plenty of examples that tell a different story.

Now the examples, I gave are extreme and I doubt your average Muslim will experience anything like that. I am sure the average Muslims get on fine in most of Europe. I know, have no real issues.

Still I think they show that this "bending over backwards" people are talking about doesn't exist as some are saying it does.

Sesshoumaru

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

One word;Fear. People are afraid of Muslim extremists so they are bending over backwards to accommodate them. The E.U. are a bunch of pussies. The Japanese have the right idea. In Japan the guest conforms to Japanese social norms. However, the Eurocrats and British polititicians are spineless.

I have a friend who came back from Japan recently and witnessed guys in vehicles with loud speakers shouting "foreigners out" etc while marching through a shopping district in Tokyo. From a personal perspective thats not something I'd like to see in Ireland. On the other hand I'm sure there are many decent ordinary Japanese who just feel very strongly about protecting their cultural identity. I can emphatise with those people.

I'd agree though that the E.U. is full of pussies. Too many extreme left elites in Brussels and at home telling us how we need to think. I don't care what they think of me, I won't ever accept Sharia law in Ireland

CDfm

You are going to get loads of its anti-woman comments simply because people dont understand the sharia system.

Certain principles of Sharia civil law especially its attitude towards arbitration are common sense- lawyers would hate that -lower fees.

Certainly there are aspects of family law and divorce that are more equitable.Feminists would hate that.

Compensation for victims or harsh punishment - that would kind of really get the liberal do gooders backs up. Prison or apply the ........

You must have some examples in mind that you would like to see applied - why dont you post them?

Shinji Ikari

wes wrote: »

Sorry this is nonsense. Europe is not bending over backwards for Muslims. Take this for example:

French Muslims face job discrimination

Care to explain how this fits into the whole Europe is "bending over backwards" for Muslims? Seems to me that at least in France, that certainly isn't the case.



Japan racism 'deep and profound'

I don't think Japan is the best example personally.

As for the Brits being spinless, invading a country looking for imaginary WMDs, isn't spineless. Sure its a war crime, but it would think it would take one hell of a spine to do something like that.

Also, could please explain how the current situation with Hicham Yezza and the arrest of Rizwaan Sabir is "bending over backwards".

For all the "bending over backwards", I can easily find examples that show the opposite. Are some accomodations being made, yes they are, not all are good idea's, but to call this "bending over backwards", is at best an exageration, when there are plenty of examples that tell a different story.

Now the examples, I gave are extreme and I doubt your average Muslim will experience anything like that. I am sure the average Muslims get on fine in most of Europe. I know, have no real issues.

Still I think they show that this "bending over backwards" people are talking about doesn't exist as some are saying it does.

Sorry man I disagree strongly in regards to you saying Europe is not bending over backward for Muslims. This guy says it better then I could.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIq7tsVvEoY

Shinji Ikari

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I have a friend who came back from Japan recently and witnessed guys in vehicles with loud speakers shouting "foreigners out" etc while marching through a shopping district in Tokyo. From a personal perspective thats not something I'd like to see in Ireland. On the other hand I'm sure there are many decent ordinary Japanese who just feel very strongly about protecting their cultural identity. I can emphatise with those people.

I'd agree though that the E.U. is full of pussies. Too many extreme left elites in Brussels and at home telling us how we need to think. I don't care what they think of me, I won't ever accept Sharia law in Ireland

Glad to hear someone agrees with me that the E.U. is bending over backwards for them and I hope you enjoy the video from Pat Condell who verbalises my opinion with more dry wit then anyone could.

In regards to racism in Japan....I should have pre-empted that misinterpretation. Yes, some Japanese can be very racist and I would'nt like to see that in Ireland either. However,as you said, I think most Japanese just want to preserve there culture and I respect them for that as you said yourself.

Galvasean

MistressMord wrote: »

who's coming for a pint on good friday so lads? christmas day maybe?

god bless our secular republic.

Won't be long now. A few restaurants served alcohol last good Friday and a court case against them was thrown out by a judge.

wes

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

Sorry man I disagree strongly in regards to you saying Europe is not bending over backward for Muslims. This guy says it better then I could.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIq7tsVvEoY

I disagree with you both. There a plenty of examples of Europe not bending over backwards, which would have to magically disappear for what your saying to be correct. So unless that video magically makes them go away, I fail to see how it changes a single one of the points I have made above.

Just, because some guy put a video on Youtube, how does this change the fact, that French Muslims can't get jobs due to there names? How about the 2 students being arrested for researching terrorism? How does this go with the whole "bending over backwards" business? Seems to me that these facts are being conveniently dismissed. The French example, certainly doesn't seem like anyone is "bending over backwards", care to explain how that fits in with this concept? Its certainly doesn't seem that way to me.

Of course, accomdations are being made for Muslims, I don't agree with all of them, but to take them alone in a vacuum and call it bending over backwards, simply makes no sense to me. These things are not happening in a vacuum, there is a lot of other stuff, which tell a different story altogether.

If Europe were bending over backwards for Muslims, there would be no EU nation involved with the Iraq war, and the architects would be have been tried for war crimes by now, at least (this should happen in anyway as its the right thing to do). Sorry, the Iraq war alone makes this whole "bending over backwards" things an exageration and thats being kind as far as I am concerned. I always laugh, when people talk about "bending over backwards" business, when the war criminals behind the Iraq war are walking around scot free. Hell, the fact the war even happened at all alone, is enough make this "bending over backwards" business to look dodgy to me.

I wait with baited breath, for all these things to disappear, seeing as that everyone in Europe is bending over backwards for Muslims. Any day now Tony Blair will be tried for war crimes at the Hague.

**EDIT**
Forgot to mention your video, doesn't address a single point I have made at all. Can't say I am surprised at all really.

Also, to address what Pat mentions in the video, the resolutions that was passed in the UN, acutally has not effect at all on any nations laws btw. I also agree with him on free speech, but I think he is exagerating the power that the OCI has, which is frankly very little.

So while it may be stupid, it has no effect and I would like to point out that the sanctions against Iraq, passed by the UN, which resulted in countless Iraqi civilian deaths, did have a real effect and that was something supported by the civilised world and to point out is what people in the ME etc would see of the West. As I said earlier, things aren't quite a straight forward, as some would have us believe. Still nice try to avoid addressing a single point, I have brought up btw.

CDfm

wes wrote: »

I disagree with you both. There a plenty of examples of Europe not bending over backwards, which would have to magically disappear for what your saying to be correct. So unless that video magically makes them go away, I fail to see how it changes a single one of the points I have made above.

Just, because some guy put a video on Youtube, how does this change the fact, that French Muslims can't get jobs due to there names? How about the 2 students being arrested for researching terrorism? How does this go with the whole "bending over backwards" business? Seems to me that these facts are being conveniently dismissed. The French example, certainly doesn't seem like anyone is "bending over backwards", care to explain how that fits in with this concept? Its certainly doesn't seem that way to me.

Of course, accomdations are being made for Muslims, I don't agree with all of them, but to take them alone in a vacuum and call it bending over backwards, simply makes no sense to me. These things are not happening in a vacuum, there is a lot of other stuff, which tell a different story altogether.

If Europe were bending over backwards for Muslims, there would be no EU nation involved with the Iraq war, and the architects would be have been tried for war crimes by now, at least (this should happen in anyway as its the right thing to do). Sorry, the Iraq war alone makes this whole "bending over backwards" things an exageration and thats being kind as far as I am concerned. I always laugh, when people talk about "bending over backwards" business, when the war criminals behind the Iraq war are walking around scot free. Hell, the fact the war even happened at all alone, is enough make this "bending over backwards" business to look dodgy to me.

I wait with baited breath, for all these things to disappear, seeing as that everyone in Europe is bending over backwards for Muslims. Any day now Tony Blair will be tried for war crimes at the Hague.

I heard that the Mosque in the Mosney Illegal Immigrant Camp is located in the old Butlins bar. LOL

wes

CDfm wrote: »

I heard that the Mosque in the Mosney Illegal Immigrant Camp is located in the old Butlins bar. LOL

Alright that is pretty funny.

hivizman

CDfm wrote: »

I heard that the Mosque in the Mosney Illegal Immigrant Camp is located in the old Butlins bar. LOL

Actually my mum first met my dad in the bar at Mosney back in the Butlins days. Presumably the bar's been deconsecrated, or whatever you do with bars?

FX Meister

what would be the point? Sharia law is backwards, outdated, sexist and racist. It has no place in any modern society. FACT

CDfm

hivizman wrote: »

Actually my mum first met my dad in the bar at Mosney back in the Butlins days. Presumably the bar's been deconsecrated, or whatever you do with bars?

if they want to go back your mum will have to wear a scarf and long sleeves etc

and they will have to leave their shoes outside.

wonder does it still have a bar licence cos they have to open the bar at least once a year-that would be very funny

maybe someone should post on BGRF and ask

FX Meister

I'm sure the bar license was sold and transfered somewhere else

CDfm

FX Meister wrote: »

I'm sure the bar license was sold and transfered somewhere else

it wouldnt be worth much and would have been more value keeping

Jack Sheehan

Absolutely not. Ireland is a secular republic and Religion of any kind should have no place within it's laws.

JWAD

AbuBakr wrote: »

In a few years, inshallah, Ireland will be a fully Islamic country and we'll have the Sharia

:rolleyes:
Have fun in the 'Waddya say? Sharia or not?' referendum.

CDfm

Many legal systems are outdated and adapt to modern circumstances - i have asked the OP what parts he would adopt and why but he has kept quiet.

Most people see the criminal codes and religious & moral aspects etc of sharia systems and assume that thats all there all there is to the legal system -not so.Copyright law has its origans in Irish Brehon law and we dont discount that.

There is a Rabbinic court in London that civil cases can be transfered to and at contract law you could have cases where a jurat clause could be inserted making a contract subject to sharia law in a certain jurisdiction or to an alternative dispute resolution there.

So its not that far fetched at all.

wes

JWAD wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Have fun in the 'Waddya say? Sharia or not?' referendum.

I doubt you will get a reply. That poster hasn't bothered to reply to anyone.

CDfm

wes wrote: »

I doubt you will get a reply. That poster hasn't bothered to reply to anyone.

this could become a fun thread

wes

CDfm wrote: »

this could become a fun thread

I know what your getting at, but the guy just registered and said one thing and hasn't replied since. I honestly doubt we will see any reply from the guy is all.

CDfm

wes wrote: »

I know what your getting at, but the guy just registered and said one thing and hasn't replied since. I honestly doubt we will see any reply from the guy is all.

he replied to me on one a thread on the pope -atheist v christan thread.

a pity -cos I would have been interested to hear his views

maybe he is anti his old culture and religion

JWAD

CDfm wrote: »

There is a Rabbinic court in London that civil cases can be transfered to and at contract law you could have cases where a jurat clause could be inserted making a contract subject to sharia law in a certain jurisdiction or to an alternative dispute resolution there.

So its not that far fetched at all.

This is not the UK and unless I'm much mistaken there have never been any provisions in the law here allowing pockets of judicial application. religious or otherwise, be it any form of halakhah (Jewish law), Sharia or anything else.

I just made a comment about that fella's claim that this country will be fully Islamic.
I put this down to wishful delusion. Either that or he's reading too much Steyn, Daily Mail or listening to too much O'Reilly/Littlejohn/AnyNutjobOutThere

Still, never mind. We all carry on.

FX Meister

CDfm wrote: »

it wouldnt be worth much and would have been more value keeping

Keep a license for a muslim mosque or sell the license to someone who wants to use it to open a pub. You really think the first option holds the most profit? Are you on drugs?

wes

CDfm wrote: »

he replied to me on one a thread on the pope -atheist v christan thread.

I am a little confused, the guy AbuBakr, only has a single post.

CDfm

I was talking about ##### Ikari who posed the question

CDfm

FX Meister wrote: »

Keep a license for a muslim mosque or sell the license to someone who wants to use it to open a pub. You really think the first option holds the most profit? Are you on drugs?

What I am saying is that if you own a property that is built for the purpose of a holiday comlplex ,resort or whatever you want to call it. Giving up or selling your licence for a few yoyos may not be the brightest thing.

Especially if you are relying on the existance of the aforementioned licences as part of any future redevolpment of the site or complex -given the nature of Irish Planning and licencing laws.

So it would be very ironic if the Mosque had a licence and .........see what I mean.

Sorry you didnt grasp the juxtaposition together with the humour element.

Shinji Ikari

wes wrote: »

I know what your getting at, but the guy just registered and said one thing and hasn't replied since. I honestly doubt we will see any reply from the guy is all.

Oh ye of little faith:D Anyway. C.D.F.M. I'm certainly not anti Old Culture.
I am anti bigotry and barbarism however. There are many aspects of sharia law which are barbaric I defy any decent person to argue against this. I certainly would not want any aspect of Sharia law being applied to any non muslim nor any person under 18.
There might be a case for certain civil matters being dealt with within the Muslim community.i.e. trade disputes, sort of like an alternative small claims court. It would de-congest the waiting list for the national courts. However, the problem with this is that its like having a state within a state. Its the same stategy employed by the first Dail during the Irish war of independence, totally different context I know. Another problem is that if you allow a different judicial system for muslims where does it end? A different judicial system for Prysbytarians, Anglicans, Buddhists, Sikhs, devout Catholics ect. No, it would dilute the authority of the state. We all benefit from the protection of the state, guards, hospitals ect. The state protects us from anarchy and in return we surrender a part of our natural freedom for this protection from anarchy. Thats the argument Hobbes made in the Leviathan for the existence of government and its a valid argument. Sharia Law would dilute the Irish state. So my opinion is if you want to live in Ireland you must adhere to her laws. These laws must be applicable to all Irish citizens with no discrimination, positive or negative.

FX Meister

CDfm wrote: »

Sorry you didnt grasp the juxtaposition together with the humour element.

I'm sorry it wasn't very funny. Really, I'm sorry.