Spa

Running Bing

Can we race there every week please:D

FedFrank2

ive said it before and i'll say it again, every track should have sprinkler systems all the way round and they turn on at random times :P

rua1972

There is no need for new circuits, the old ones will do. Especially with some drops of rain. I jumped with joy when Hamilton went off, but bursted into tears when Raikonnen spun and was out of the race. Maybe even out of the championship ,but that is what we thought last year and he made up 17 points to win. So who knows. It's turning out into a nice season although i'm afraid for the outcome, specially after this race.

doubledown

Hamilton has been given a 25 second penalty and has been demoted to third.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70401

Awful decision. For Christ's sake - LET THEM RACE! There is now way he deserved that. The rulings and punishments are far too inconsistent from race to race.

What a joke, I hope Lewis wins the title just to spite them all.

:mad:

amacachi

AHAHHAHAHHAHAAHHAHHAHA

Unfair punishment, glad he got it though

25/1 Raikkonen for the title is looking like its worth a coupla quid.

ongarite

F*cking terrible decision. It was a racing incident. The FIA (Ferrari Defense Force) still have it in for McLaren.

FedFrank2

What a shocking decision. Hamilton gave back the lead and with all the ducking and diving Raikkonen did he make a good move at La Source. Sure theye were both off the road the following lap before Raikkonen ultimately retired.

For Massa not to get a panalty in Valencia and Hamilton to get a penalty here seems stupid.

For shame the FIA!

Firewalkwithme

Just a disgraceful decision. I can't believe the lengths the FIA will go to in order to help Ferrari out. This just makes a mockery of the sport. I hope McLaren appeal this verdict as Charlie Whiting has already said that he saw nothing wrong with what happened. If any of you blinkered Ferrari fans can explain why Hamilton deserved this penalty then good luck to you because for the life of me I can't see what he did wrong.

Rattlehead_ie

TBH I'm delighted as I don't like Hamilton at all, but it is a unfair decision to have made by FIA. Im not sure how it works but does every course have different officials and stewards? If so this should be looked at to maybe get the same ppl making the decisions wk in wk out as the level of inconsistency is increasing.

Firewalkwithme

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

TBH I'm delighted as I don't like Hamilton at all, but it is a unfair decision to have made by FIA. Im not sure how it works but does every course have different officials and stewards? If so this should be looked at to maybe get the same ppl making the decisions wk in wk out as the level of inconsistency is increasing.

There used to be different steward for every circuit but I thought that they had brought in a permanent head steward (or something along those lines) so that things would be more consistant. Clearly it's not working very well.

Running Bing

rua1972 wrote: »

There is no need for new circuits, the old ones will do. Especially with some drops of rain. I jumped with joy when Hamilton went off, but bursted into tears when Raikonnen spun and was out of the race. Maybe even out of the championship ,but that is what we thought last year and he made up 17 points to win. So who knows. It's turning out into a nice season although i'm afraid for the outcome, specially after this race.

Im all for new circuits...as long as they produce exciting races.


FFS how hard can it be if you designing a track from scratch to get it right. Just look at the parts of other tracks that promote overtaking and incorporate them in the design, its not rocket science.


As for the older tracks personally I would love to see Kyalami and Paul Ricard back. I think Spa really is the shining jewel in F1's crown as far as exciting racing goes and there is no reason why F1 should not race on other tracks that would produce just as good races.


I think F1 is dangerously close to becoming unmatchable, its just a snore fest and something needs to be done. For me its very simple it falls down to two things:

1.Aerodynamics
2.Tracks

Get rid of all the star wars ****e off the cars and make it possible for a car to get within one second of the other and focus on good circuits that promote exciting races and things would be much more exciting.

rua1972

I don't like Hamilton, but this is stupid. A penalty should be given during the race or make it a grid penalty for the next race. Not change the outcome of the race after the race has finished.

Devilman

Its not just an unfair decision, its an untterly disgraceful decision, I'm no fan of any particular team/driver, I just want to see good racing and when I finally get a race that holds my interest from start to finish this happens. How do the F1 powerbrokers expect people to watch or have their interest held when the result on the track (which seemed perfectly OK to my eyes) is decided behind closed doors?

HalloweenJack

It was the most exciting end to a race I remember for donkey's but the post-race decision kind of overshadows it. I didn't see any problem with what Hamilton did. Farily certain, other racers tried similar things and got away with it.

You have to feel for Hamilton. He did incredibly to win the race and has had it stripped from him.

KhanTheMan

HalloweenJack wrote: »

It was the most exciting end to a race I remember for donkey's but the post-race decision kind of overshadows it. I didn't see any problem with what Hamilton did. Farily certain, other racers tried similar things and got away with it.

You have to feel for Hamilton. He did incredibly to win the race and has had it stripped from him.

I actually fell asleep watching it. I only woke up when the action was happening after the rain.

Might as well have stayed asleep now as it all meant nothing.

They have just got too boring. Been like that for years and now i sleep through most of a race. But thats it now, Thats the last Grand Prix for me.

zeris

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

There used to be different steward for every circuit but I thought that they had brought in a permanent head steward (or something along those lines) so that things would be more consistant. Clearly it's not working very well.

There are three stewards at each race. One is permanent and chosen by the FIA for the season and the other two are from the local motorsport organisation.

zeris

rua1972 wrote: »

I don't like Hamilton, but this is stupid. A penalty should be given during the race or make it a grid penalty for the next race. Not change the outcome of the race after the race has finished.

It is not always possible to give penalties during the race and it is not always fair for the other competitors to give a penalty in the next race. An example of this would be cars infringing the rules only discovered in scrutineering.

RayM

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

If any of you blinkered Ferrari fans can explain why Hamilton deserved this penalty then good luck to you because for the life of me I can't see what he did wrong.

I'm a Ferrari fan. I find Lewis Hamilton to be extremely irritating and arrogant. I hate the way he continually speaks of his own potential 'greatness' - and to be honest, I think there are at least four or five better drivers out there (Alonso, Raikkonen, Kubica, Vettel and Massa on a good day). I don't want Hamilton to win the Championship. If he does, there's a real risk that he could actually sneer his entire face off on the podium. I don't think I could handle listening to James Allen blow his load all over the commentary box. Plus, after enduring eleven years of their ineptitude, I want ITV's Formula One coverage to end in the massively anticlimactical disappointment that they deserve.

However, there can be no possible justification for that penalty. Not one jot. You can't give Ferrari a tiny, tiny, meaningless fine for nearly causing a catastrophic pitlane accident, and then, two weeks later, take a win away from McLaren for an incident which wasn't even against the rules. Hamilton gave back that position that he gained by jumping the chicane. That should have been the end of it. If Hamilton's car was red, it undoubtedly would have been. As an F1 fan, first and foremost, the FIA's blatant anti-McLaren witch-hunt disgusts me. I've spent years defending F1 among football-supporting friends who don't believe it's 'a proper sport'. Again and again, the sport has let me down, and today - well, it would be easier to defend American foreign policy, to be honest...

Devilman

It is not always possible to give penalties during the race and it is not always fair for the other competitors to give a penalty in the next race. An example of this would be cars infringing the rules only discovered in scrutineering

Thats a different set of circumstances altogether, in instances like that the team has cheated/purposely broken the rules and can be easily proven. With a racing incident its about interpretation, and with this particular one I see nothing but anti-McLaren bias. Why can't the FIA let drivers drive and not turn them into mindless robots behind a steering wheel !

zeris

FedFrank2 wrote: »

What a shocking decision. Hamilton gave back the lead and with all the ducking and diving Raikkonen did he make a good move at La Source. Sure theye were both off the road the following lap before Raikkonen ultimately retired.

Without being privy to the cars telemetry we don't know if Hamilton gave back the lead or was simply overtaken by Kimi. Besides, I believe the rule is about gaining an advantage, not necessarily about gaining a place. For example, if you cut a chicane to avoid being overtaken you could also expect a penalty.

Also, there is no rule against using the outside of a corner and rejoining the circuit.

thegoth

Guys, when I saw this on TV, I knew that Lewis had to get a penalty. I will tell you why. He did gain an advantage by cutting the corner. The bottom line is had he not cut that corner, he would not have overtaken Kimi at the next. The fact he gave back the lead for a split second on the straight does not matter. Had he gave Kimi back the lead and not challenged into the next corner that would have been fine, but he gained momentum by cutting the corner and overtook Kimi because of that, therefore he deserves a penalty.

I feel sorry for him as I think he would have won anyway, but its a hard lesson that I'm sure he will learn from, like Fugi and his tyre last year.

Excellent race. No need to for trach designs. Just have 18 Belgium grand prixs a year from Spa :-)

cheridere

RayM wrote: »

However, there can be no possible justification for that penalty. Not one jot. You can't give Ferrari a tiny, tiny, meaningless fine for nearly causing a catastrophic pitlane accident, and then, two weeks later, take a win away from McLaren for an incident which wasn't even against the rules. Hamilton gave back that position that he gained by jumping the chicane. That should have been the end of it. If Hamilton's car was red, it undoubtedly would have been. As an F1 fan, first and foremost, the FIA's blatant anti-McLaren witch-hunt disgusts me. I've spent years defending F1 among football-supporting friends who don't believe it's 'a proper sport'. Again and again, the sport has let me down, and today - well, it would be easier to defend American foreign policy, to be honest...

Exactly what I wanted to say.

Get your money on one of the ferraris as it seems the FIA have already decided the championship will go to the Reds (even if neither of the drivers deserve it)

Firewalkwithme

zeris wrote: »

Without being privy to the cars telemetry we don't know if Hamilton gave back the lead or was simply overtaken by Kimi.

It was blatantly obvious that he gave the place back as he didn't accelerate out of the chicance and did not try to block Kimi at all.

zeris wrote: »

Besides, I believe the rule is about gaining an advantage, not necessarily about gaining a place.

For example, if you cut a chicane to avoid being overtaken you could also expect a penalty.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but what advantage did he gain? Did he save some fuel or by cutting the chicane perhaps he avoided a tiny bit of tyre wear? Those fractions really count in F1 after all don't they?

zeris wrote: »

For example, if you cut a chicane to avoid being overtaken you could also expect a penalty.

Yes and you would doubtless receive one but what has this got to do with todays incident? Hamilton let Raikonnen retake the position - his entire car was ahead of Hamiltons while in the chicane they were side by side. If anything, Hamilton has a better argument for having lost position after being bumped off line by Raikonnen.

zeris wrote: »

Also, there is no rule against using the outside of a corner and rejoining the circuit.

Who said there was?

Firewalkwithme

thegoth wrote: »

Guys, when I saw this on TV, I knew that Lewis had to get a penalty. I will tell you why. He did gain an advantage by cutting the corner. The bottom line is had he not cut that corner, he would not have overtaken Kimi at the next. The fact he gave back the lead for a split second on the straight does not matter. Had he gave Kimi back the lead and not challenged into the next corner that would have been fine, but he gained momentum by cutting the corner and overtook Kimi because of that, therefore he deserves a penalty.

I feel sorry for him as I think he would have won anyway, but its a hard lesson that I'm sure he will learn from, like Fugi and his tyre last year.

Excellent race. No need to for trach designs. Just have 18 Belgium grand prixs a year from Spa :-)

Sorry but that is just rubbish - he gained an advantage but he gave it back as per the rules of the sport. How long is he supposed to serve his penance by staying behind Raikonen before inevitably overtaking him again?

Ghost Train

i don't really see any reason for a penalty like this

maybe he gained a better track position by cutting the corner, but he fecking undertook kimi switched from kimis right to left before overtaking again. There was no extra momentum or advantage over what kimi had, and kimi then bumped into the back of him... kimi was strugleing more with conditions

feel bad for lewis (and kimi) as you could really see how hard he was fighting with kimi for the win

cheridere

Like Liverpool fans will never admit Ronaldo is the best player in the world, Ferrari fans will never give Lewis any credit even though he was clearly the best driver today and didnt deserve the time reduction.

This one could run and run so I wont add anything more but on a good note

Did ye see Heidfeld coming through the on the last lap for third. Magnificent piece of driving.

thegoth

Guys,

Two things

1) The main reason that Ferrari were not penalised in the last race is because the pit lane in Valencia was not the FIA specification. It was too narrow. The accerlation lane did not exisit. Its that simple

2) Ignore the fact that Lewis let Kimi past. The fact is that he "Gained and advantage" as after it cut the corner he was ahead of Lewis. Instead of letting Kimi past, as he did, he should have fallen about .9 seconds behind him as well, as that is how far back he was BEFORE he cut the corner. Its that simple

Firewalkwithme

thegoth wrote: »

Guys,

Two things

1) The main reason that Ferrari were not penalised in the last race is because the pit lane in Valencia was not the FIA specification. It was too narrow. The accerlation lane did not exisit. Its that simple

2) Ignore the fact that Lewis let Kimi past. The fact is that he "Gained and advantage" as after it cut the corner he was ahead of Lewis. Instead of letting Kimi past, as he did, he should have fallen about .9 seconds behind him as well, as that is how far back he was BEFORE he cut the corner. Its that simple

No - take another look at the video - before Kimi bumped him off line he was in fact BESIDE him not 0.9 seconds behind him.

thegoth

I am a Ferrari fan. I think Lewis is better than both Ferrari drivers by some way.

I would like to see Alonso and Lewis as teammates at a team like Reanult and see how things work out

thegoth

Under braking he was beside him, but he overshot his braking, so that doesnt count.

zeris

zeris wrote: »

It is not always possible to give penalties during the race and it is not always fair for the other competitors to give a penalty in the next race. An example of this would be cars infringing the rules only discovered in scrutineering.

Devilman wrote: »

Thats a different set of circumstances altogether, in instances like that the team has cheated/purposely broken the rules and can be easily proven. With a racing incident its about interpretation, and with this particular one I see nothing but anti-McLaren bias. Why can't the FIA let drivers drive and not turn them into mindless robots behind a steering wheel !

I picked the car failing scrutineering as an example. Without Hamilton gaining an advantage the result of the race could have been very different.

Are you suggesting that Max Mosley spoke to one of the two local stewards (assuming the FIA steward is already voting against McLaren) and told them to penalise Hamilton?

Remember of course that the Belgium motorsport organisation was part of the group that asked Mosley to resign when his "Hookers and Bondage in a Chelsea basement"-gate broke.

Devilman

In any case is Raikonnen going to be penalised in the next race for making 2 movements to stop Hamilton overtake him at La Source, I thought this was outlawed to avoid accidents ?

If Hamilton had received an advatage from the chicane I would accept the decsion, however it was obvious that Hamilton slowed down and let Raikonnen retake his position (afaik there is nothing in the rules that dictate there must be more than 1 car length between the cars).

Over the years I've kept with F1 -right through the Schumacer/Barichello disaster, the years of it being so boring as to have pit-stops as the only moment of excitement (imagine hoping for fuel rig operators to catch fire/get caught under wheels!!).

Well done FIA for killing F1 off. :mad:

ednwireland

dreadful decision dont particularly like Hamilton's personality but think he is a great driver put your money on ferrari looks like f1 want to punish maclaren again for last year they definitely dont want mclaren to win the championship

hope they go to court over it - this happens all the time in races what the point of run off areas if your not allowed to use them put a wall there instead

RayM

thegoth wrote: »

He did gain an advantage by cutting the corner. The bottom line is had he not cut that corner, he would not have overtaken Kimi at the next. The fact he gave back the lead for a split second on the straight does not matter. Had he gave Kimi back the lead and not challenged into the next corner that would have been fine, but he gained momentum by cutting the corner and overtook Kimi because of that, therefore he deserves a penalty.

Declare your interests - which team do you generally tend to favour - McLaren or Ferrari?

The idea that giving back the lead 'does not matter' is frankly ridiculous. The rules declare that, if you cut a corner, you give back the position that you gained. Hamilton did just that, and whatever happens going into the next corner is irrelevant. Do you honestly believe that Ferrari (taking into account the meaningless fine they received for causing a potentially life-threatening incident in Valencia) would have received the same treatment? Seriously...

Firewalkwithme

thegoth wrote: »

Under braking he was beside him, but he overshot his braking, so that doesnt count.

He didn't overshoot - Kimi hit him.

muckwarrior

I think Smarmy Cυnt Lewis Hamilton did deserve a penalty but certainly not one that strips him of his win. I used to laugh at the FIA bias claims but this actually makes me wonder.

thegoth

Guys, your wrong. The regulations, state if you gain an advantage. For example, if you skip a corner once or twice in a race, you will be fine, but if you do it 5 or 6 times, you will get a penalty if the stewards deem you to be gaining an advantage. Race positions are simply not mentioned.

I am a Ferrari fan, but not a crazy one. I own BMW, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and Renault T shirts. I love F1, not really a team.

All I am saying is that Lewis did gain an advantage which the rules say he shouldnt, therefore he gains a penalty.

Look up article 30.3 and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) here http://www.jaf.or.jp/msports/rules/image/2007f1_sport_reg_e.pdf

Rules are rule

thegoth

Cartoon_Head, Lewis was about .9 seconds behind Kimi BEFORE he ran wide. You are talking about after he overtook him

RayM

thegoth wrote: »

Guys, your wrong. The regulations, state if you gain an advantage. For example, if you skip a corner once or twice in a race, you will be fine, but if you do it 5 or 6 times, you will get a penalty if the stewards deem you to be gaining an advantage. Race positions are simply not mentioned.

You're absolutely, completely and utterly, profoundly wrong. Even Charlie Whiting has gone on record as saying that Hamilton acted within the rules. Are you disputing the opinion of the FIA's own safety delegate? In this instance, the specific advantage which was gained by Lewis Hamilton swerving off the track to avoid a collision was positional. By allowing Raikkonen to gain that position back, Hamilton forfeited any advantage which he had gained. What happened going into the next corner was irrelevant, as Hamilton would possibly have been on Raikkonen's gearbox anyway, regardless of what had happened in the previous corner.

I think you're looking at this entire incident through decidedly red-tinted spectacles. Do you honestly (seriously... be honest now) believe that, had it been Raikkonen, rather than Hamilton in that situation, that very same penalty would have been given? If your answer to that question is 'yes', please proceed to slap yourself firmly in the face several times.

zeris

McLaren has lodged an appeal.

Sabre0001

Haven't seen it so can't comment myself...McLaren have appealed however

Autosport.com wrote:

There are some doubts about whether McLaren are allowed to appeal against a drive-through penalty, which means the Court of Appeal may first have to decide at its hearing whether or not the appeal is admissible.

zeris

Video clip is here before Mr. E gets it taken down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4TZww5f6ko

Inquitus

I am pretty ambivalent to LH, he's prob the best driver out there but he has a bad temprament. Had he had some patience today he would have passed Raikonen and won the race without the drama, he is undoubtedly a better driver in the wet, and the Ferrari seems treacherous once the rain starts to pour.

Thats aside he clearly didn't break the rules today and this penalty is farcical. The FIA have a history of this sort of contrived result bull**** all aimed at tightening the race for the WDC to supposedly increase press / punter hype.

Someone on the BBC board said feck this I am off to watch the WWF, at least they are honest there about their intentions.....he's not far off the mark!

FrostyJack

Initially I was shocked by the decision (but delighted). but I just watched the above video about 20 times and I think the stewards were spot on.
Lewis was about a width of the front wing ahead as they got into the chicane, under braking, with a left hander straight after it, Kimi had the inside line so what else was he to do, stop dead and let lewis go by? Hamilton just tried an impossible move and it failed, so all the Hamyy fanboys can give that up for a start.

When Hamilton rejoins the track they are side by side (which wouldn't have happened if he had of taken the chicane properly ie behide Kimi)then Kimi goes ahead for a second only for Hamilton to out brake him (the move starting right on his gear box which would not have happened if he had of taken the chicane properly). It was a cock up my Lewis again, he could have taken him at any corner after that as the Ferrari is muck in the wet, but inpatience strikes again.

Ferrari should have called Kimi in for inters on the 2nd last lap, it was obvious he was going to go off and or be over taken by Lewis.

It was great listening to Lewis talk his usual crap before the race,"I rarely get overtaken", "I'll never be overtaken from the outside again", hilarious it only took till lap 2! So full of BS.
Keeps the championship close which is a good thing, Kimi surely must be rear gunner now?

RayM

FrostyJack wrote: »

Hamilton just tried an impossible move and it failed, so all the Hamyy fanboys can give that up for a start.

Have you actually read any of this thread? The majority of people here who disagree with the punishment (i.e. the majority of people) aren't Hamilton fans. I personally can't stand the guy, and I really would like to see the championship going down to the wire - preferably being won by Massa. Is it beyond your comprehension that, perhaps those who believe Hamilton was unfairly punished simply don't like seeing races being rigged, regardless of whether or not the corrupt outcome happens to suit us?

FrostyJack

The majority of people here who disagree with the punishment (i.e. the majority of people) aren't Hamilton fans.

The Hammy fans I was refering to were the likes of ITV, Ron Dennis and at least one guy on this thread that said that kimi was in the wrong as hamilton was ahead going into the corner, which was not the case as the video above shows.

The minute anything goes in Ferrari's way there has to be a conspiracy, doesn't there? I just showed you why he was punished hence there was no conspiracy. Some referenced the Valencia incident 2 weeks ago, which was a totally different senario, and I challenged someone who thought that, to show me where some else got peanlised for the same thing (nearly hitting someone) no takers yet. McClaren admitted to cheating last year yet were still allowed compete even though they could have gained advantage ie won races, is this a conspiracy to help McClaren? What about Hamilton being lifted by onto the track, did the NWO organise this too?

Swings and roundabouts, if it seems Ferrari get away with everything and McClaren get called on everything, it just seems that.

itarumaa

Räikkönen really showed us today why he is the champion, all or nothing attitude was something I was hoping Kimi to do, think about how passive Räikkönen has been before, now he was really a number one.

Too bad he crashed though, the biggest irony of all this is of course that Massa, who had no speed to race Räikkönen & Hamilton actually won.

And for the Hamilton's punishment, I think it was a joke, Räikkönen went really wide in that corner and if Hamilton would push his car inside, they would definitely have crashed.

KamiKazi

What an absolutely ridiculous ruling, honestly can't believe they've penalised him for that.

Raikkonen's own fault for getting overtaken, what was he doing swerving around like that? Hamilton out drove him and Ferrari went crying to the FIA no doubt.

Terrontress

KamiKazi wrote: »

What an absolutely ridiculous ruling, honestly can't believe they've penalised him for that.

Raikkonen's own fault for getting overtaken, what was he doing swerving around like that? Hamilton out drove him and Ferrari went crying to the FIA no doubt.

Ferrari have stated publicly that they did not instigate any contact with the FIA over the matter.

Just because Hamilton gave back the place does not mean that he did not gain an advantage. If Raikonnen closed the door on him he should have dropped back and tried again later.

If McLaren's appeal is successful it will set a dangerous precedent for the sport. Every chicane with a run off area will be missed, then a driver will let the person he leapfrogged by but be right up on the exhaust of the driver in front, which they would not have been if they had taken the corner properly.

Hamilton should either have made his move count on the track or else brake and let Raikonnen continue through the corner safely and follow him through.

FrostyJack

Hamilton out drove him

2 laps out of 44? Out driven?

Hamilton should either have made his move count on the track or else brake and let Raikonnen continue through the corner safely and follow him through.

Good to see other people understand the sport here and not the sensational hype sorrounding such incidents.

OSiriS

Yes Hamilton gained an advangate, and so was under an obligation to give the place back. Hamilton didn't just let Raikkonen get a nose infront, he let him drive by and drove around the back of him, so the momentum was clearly with Raikkonen at that stage. Hamilton is being penalised for finding better grip and drive after he completed his obligation for cutting the chicane.