Why can't people accept that I have lost my faith??

evil-monkey

Hi all,

Kinda feel a bit of a baffoon posting this, but anyway...

I was raised in a Catholic family, whom are all still very Catholic. Thing is, about maybe two or so years ago I really just lost my faith in the church...sort of the whole religion thing in general...

It's not that I myself miss it. It's just that, whenever you say to someone you're an atheist, they kinda look at you with shock as if I'm Devil reincarnate or something...

I dunno, it's like, they say "how could you not go to mass even at Christmas?" I'm like, because I don't believe bla bla bla and they just shut down...the minute I start asking awkward questions about the church it's end of discussion, even though they started it. I'm not a religion basher!! All my family go to mass etc etc and good luck to them. I will never say a bad word against the church unless I'm asked why I lost my faith. If you're asked a question surely you answer truthfully...

What ye guys think??

Thanks in advance

jaffa20

Well it's your choice so it doesn't matter what other people think. If you respect them, then they should respect you. Why did you lose your faith out of curiosity

evil-monkey

jaffa20 wrote: »

Well it's your choice so it doesn't matter what other people think. If you respect them, then they should respect you. Why did you lose your faith out of curiosity

I don't want to sound like the usual broken record...but there is just so much wrong with the church...

I mean, firstly, you've got the whole God in general. I mean, with so much pain and suffering in the world, I find it hard to believe him giving us free will is a cop out...

And then you've got the Catholic Church as an organisation. People living on the streets in some part of the world and priests lighting candles in solid gold candle holders!! Ever seen the wealth in the Vatican?? Surely that could be spread around just a lil...

i dunno, it all just seems a bit swiss-cheesy...the church and religion always just seemed so hypocritical to me. i mean, i do miss it, i had really strong faith...i used spend a good bit at night, not praying, just sorta having a heart to heart with the man upstairs. now the thought of that just makes me think....hmmmm...

lugha

I generally don’t bring up my lack of faith with too many people. I never did feel a need to make a principled stand and refrain from participating in religious ceremonies and wouldn’t be at all adverse to going to a Christmas eve mass but there would be nothing spiritual in it for me.

robindch

evil-monkey wrote: »

Thing is, about maybe two or so years ago I really just lost my faith in the church

It's just a small pixel in the big picture, but the phrase "to lose one's faith" never quite seems to convey the triviality of what's really happened.

Religion has twisted the language to its own ends, so that the idea of "losing faith" inevitably suggests that one is ant-socially faithless without the discarded belief. While the use of the verb "lose" implies clearly enough that, at least to start with, one actually had any desire to keep whatever it was that one had acquired.

I'd imagine that "Rejecting an implanted belief" is a lot closer to what most atheists think than the dishonorable "losing one's faith".

studiorat

Well you were born an atheist...
Most normal people won't have a problem with it. I remember telling a catholic priest back in school I didn't believe in a god, don't suppose I ever have. He was fine with it, offered me a blessing which I figured it would be rude to refuse, and off I went.

I think it's people who have issues with their own faith who find it unacceptable.

Quick question though is it in Catholicisim or Christianity in general?

PDN

So, let's get this straight, you start a thread here in the Christianity forum, share your criticisms against the Church and Christian belief, but you lament that others won't accept your lack of belief?

That sounds like you want the freedom to question and criticise others, but expect Christians to leave you alone without questioning or criticising your beliefs. Do you see why others might find that hypocritical?

PDN

studiorat wrote: »

Well you were born an atheist...
Most normal people won't have a problem with it. I remember telling a catholic priest back in school I didn't believe in a god, don't suppose I ever have. He was fine with it, offered me a blessing which I figured it would be rude to refuse, and off I went.

I think it's people who have issues with their own faith who find it unacceptable.

Quick question though is it in Catholicisim or Christianity in general?

So would the same apply to atheists who have such a problem with others' beliefs that they keep coming to a Christianity forum to argue about it? Would that indicate they have issues with their atheism?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight, you start a thread here in the Christianity forum, share your criticisms against the Church and Christian belief, but you lament that others won't accept your lack of belief?

That sounds like you want the freedom to question and criticise others, but expect Christians to leave you alone without questioning or criticising your beliefs. Do you see why others might find that hypocritical?

Did you actually read any of his post at all PDN?

He isn't bringing the topic up with his family, his family are asking him why he isn't going to things like mass, when he explains that he doesn't believe in the religion any more because of reason X,Y,Z they look at him like he just said he likes raping babies and shun him.

This is a quite common response when someone dares say they don't believe any more.

He was then asked in this thread why he lost faith and he answer the question, only to have you, the mod no less, appear to criticise him for answering the question as if he is stirring up trouble and saying that he is looking to critizise but doesn't what people criticising him Where did you get that from?

The mistake he made of course was coming to this forum looking for support.

evil-monkey I recommend you take your query to the Atheists and Agnostics forum, you ain't going to get any help around these parts.

studiorat

I'm here for the reading lists, particularly yours PDN. I won't argue that religion has been a major force in history, and is of particular interest to me, not just Christianity.

I did think it was a strange place to post as first, but I suppose thinking about there's not many other places to do it. The OP has lost his Christian faith so I maybe it is relevant.

What would be the point of a forum on a subject where everybody was in agreement?

dlofnep

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight, you start a thread here in the Christianity forum, share your criticisms against the Church and Christian belief, but you lament that others won't accept your lack of belief?

ER.. He was ASKED why and he responded. Did you not read the thread? He did not come here to share criticisms of the church, he came to ask why people won't accept his lack of belief.

PDN wrote: »

That sounds like you want the freedom to question and criticise others, but expect Christians to leave you alone without questioning or criticising your beliefs. Do you see why others might find that hypocritical?

No, it sounds like he doesn't get why people won't accept his beliefs. And afterwards, he was asked why and explained why.

philologos

I personally think they might be dealing with it the wrong way, expressing shock is only going to turn people off even more. I hope one day they will be able to listen to your questions and provide a respectful answer. As for leaving Catholicism, I would be open to trying out other forms of Christianity such as Anglicanism, or other forms of churches. I can only say I hope you will reconsider but I understand your decision at the same time. Good luck

studiorat wrote: »

Well you were born an atheist...
Most normal people won't have a problem with it. I remember telling a catholic priest back in school I didn't believe in a god, don't suppose I ever have. He was fine with it, offered me a blessing which I figured it would be rude to refuse, and off I went.

I think it's people who have issues with their own faith who find it unacceptable.

Quick question though is it in Catholicisim or Christianity in general?

I personally think people are more likely to be agnostics from birth. Atheism takes just as much faith and zeal as Christianity, it takes faith to outright deny any form of existence of God being possible.

Dave147

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight, you start a thread here in the Christianity forum, share your criticisms against the Church and Christian belief, but you lament that others won't accept your lack of belief?

That sounds like you want the freedom to question and criticise others, but expect Christians to leave you alone without questioning or criticising your beliefs. Do you see why others might find that hypocritical?

Uh let's get THIS straight, he is validly criticising the church (because he was asked a question), what's gone on is a disgrace, do you deny the church's guilt of any wrong-doing? He didn't come in to 'criticise' your beliefs, he came in to show disillusionment and he wanted opinions from Christians, he was also very friendly and genuine. Stop being so defensive.

jaffa20

The OP is entitled to post in the Christianity forum if he wishes. I think the topic is aimed at Christians who do not respect Atheists. I don't see how he is being hypocritial. He only told us why he lost his faith and not arguing with Christians and their belief. I don't think that is a problem. Or is this forum only for those who which to praise the church and not lament Where is the discussion to be had there

As a Christian, you should respect those who do not share your belief.
As an Atheist, you should respect those who do not share your disbelief.

I think the OP has a problem with the former but he does not show any disrespect with the latter. He only shows how he has lost his faith and his disappointment with the Vatican. He does not show any disrespect for Christians as it is their choice to believe.

philologos

Dave147 wrote: »

Uh let's get THIS straight, he is validly criticising the church, what's gone on is a disgrace, do you deny the church's guilt of any wrong-doing? He didn't come in to 'criticise' your beliefs, he came in to show disillusionment and he wanted opinions from Christians, he was also very friendly and genuine. Stop being so defensive.

Which church do you speak of?

Yes he is validly criticising the Church, but often people in the Church unfortunately do not represent true Christianity. True Christianity's source is the Bible, the meeting place of Christians is the Church. One can be a Christian and remain appauled by the way Christians have acted in the past. I find the Crusades, Inquisition, and the priests scandal to be abhorrent. I however feel it best to wish that the Catholic Church can get through this, as the Anglican Church needs to get through it's own trials at the moment.

Dave147

evil-monkey wrote: »

Hi all,

Kinda feel a bit of a baffoon posting this, but anyway...

I was raised in a Catholic family, whom are all still very Catholic. Thing is, about maybe two or so years ago I really just lost my faith in the church...sort of the whole religion thing in general...

It's not that I myself miss it. It's just that, whenever you say to someone you're an atheist, they kinda look at you with shock as if I'm Devil reincarnate or something...

I dunno, it's like, they say "how could you not go to mass even at Christmas?" I'm like, because I don't believe bla bla bla and they just shut down...the minute I start asking awkward questions about the church it's end of discussion, even though they started it. I'm not a religion basher!! All my family go to mass etc etc and good luck to them. I will never say a bad word against the church unless I'm asked why I lost my faith. If you're asked a question surely you answer truthfully...

What ye guys think??

Thanks in advance

I just love the 'not going to mass at xmas' debate, I explained to my friends that I had no beliefs and I don't go to mass, only to funerals out of respect for who died. They then demanded to know why I didn't go at xmas.. I just blankly stared at them, I actually can't believe how many people ask this.. ARGHHH!

evil-monkey

studiorat wrote: »

Quick question though is it in Catholicisim or Christianity in general?

kind of a bit of both...i suppose the Catholic Church annoys me, and I don't believe in a God...still a bit undecided about Jesus, not that I believe if there was a Jesus that he was infact the son of God...

evil-monkey

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight, you start a thread here in the Christianity forum, share your criticisms against the Church and Christian belief, but you lament that others won't accept your lack of belief?

That sounds like you want the freedom to question and criticise others, but expect Christians to leave you alone without questioning or criticising your beliefs. Do you see why others might find that hypocritical?

ok ya see now this is exactly what i was talking about!!

i just wanted to ask people for a lil bit of guidance and I get flamed!! i have absolutely no problem with people who have remained devot Catholics, damn, I live with enough of them!!

I only mentioned why I had lost my faith because I was asked!!

if I'm not welcome in the Christian forum that's fine...at least now i know the moderators view..."if you'd don't believe you're not welcome"

what you said about me was COMPLETELY unfounded as I doubt you even read my OP at all!! at all at all!!

the rest of you, thanks for your kind words. i hope that you all keep ye're faith. i always liked mine cos it was that one thing no one could take from you. something that isn't material, that can't be burned in the fire so to speak...

all the best

PDN

evil-monkey wrote: »

ok ya see now this is exactly what i was talking about!!

i just wanted to ask people for a lil bit of guidance and I get flamed!! i have absolutely no problem with people who have remained devot Catholics, damn, I live with enough of them!!

Hardly flamed - I simply pointed out what I understood as an inconsistency in your post. Apologies if I misunderstood your intent.

if I'm not welcome in the Christian forum that's fine...at least now i know the moderators view..."if you'd don't believe you're not welcome"

what you said about me was COMPLETELY unfounded as I doubt you even read my OP at all!! at all at all!!

I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that you're not welcome. I think you're reading my post as poorly as I appear to have read yours.

People with different views are welcome to post in this forum.

evil-monkey

PDN wrote: »

Hardly flamed - I simply pointed out what I understood as an inconsistency in your post. Apologies if I misunderstood your intent.


I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that you're not welcome. I think you're reading my post as poorly as I appear to have read yours.

People with different views are welcome to post in this forum.

there was no inconsistency. i never said a word about the church until i was asked. the OP was about my loosing faith. the same post in which i said i had nothing against catholics or their beliefs. but you clearly just ignored that.

philologos

I don't understand how churches could turn me off Christianity. Sure there have been the abuses of man throughout history, however I don't see how that should affect my understanding of God, or the Son Jesus who came to die for my sins? Separating man from God is always key in religious faith of any sort I find. Again, to the OP and to anyone who has ever had difficulty with church life, look to Jesus not to the failings of man.

brianthebard

evil-monkey wrote: »

kind of a bit of both...i suppose the Catholic Church annoys me, and I don't believe in a God...still a bit undecided about Jesus, not that I believe if there was a Jesus that he was infact the son of God...

i think you need to consider what you do and don't believe and why before you tell people what you are(n't).You have a problem with the catholic church which i understand,but there are other churches,other interpretations that might be in your interest to understand.

wolfsbane

evil-monkey wrote: »

Hi all,

Kinda feel a bit of a baffoon posting this, but anyway...

I was raised in a Catholic family, whom are all still very Catholic. Thing is, about maybe two or so years ago I really just lost my faith in the church...sort of the whole religion thing in general...

It's not that I myself miss it. It's just that, whenever you say to someone you're an atheist, they kinda look at you with shock as if I'm Devil reincarnate or something...

I dunno, it's like, they say "how could you not go to mass even at Christmas?" I'm like, because I don't believe bla bla bla and they just shut down...the minute I start asking awkward questions about the church it's end of discussion, even though they started it. I'm not a religion basher!! All my family go to mass etc etc and good luck to them. I will never say a bad word against the church unless I'm asked why I lost my faith. If you're asked a question surely you answer truthfully...

What ye guys think??

Thanks in advance

Yes, an honest answer is best.

But don't be surprised at the shock coming from folk who assume being Irish is being Catholic, or being Catholic is evidently the supreme good of any person. If they have not been used to the idea that religion can be a consciously adopted belief system, your conscious rejection of Catholicism must challenge their view of the world.

I'm guessing, as I don't come from the Irish Catholic community. But it would account for their surprise and unwillingness to engage in debate.

boringteetotal

Point 1. No priest can forgive sin, only God.

Point 2. In relation to Catholic statues:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Point 3. In relation to Mary as 'divine':

Jeremiah 44:19
And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her,........to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Point 4. And finally in relation to priest and "Father O Reilly" etc etc:

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

jaffa20

boringteetotal wrote: »

Point 1. No priest can forgive sin, only God.

Point 2. In relation to Catholic statues:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Point 3. In relation to Mary as 'divine':

Jeremiah 44:19
And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her,........to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Point 4. And finally in relation to priest and "Father O Reilly" etc etc:

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

What has this got to do with the OP's question I think you stumbled upon the wrong thread.

MrPudding

evil-monkey wrote: »

if I'm not welcome in the Christian forum that's fine...

Small point. It is a christianity forum not christian forum.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't understand how churches could turn me off Christianity.

This is how it kind of worked with me. I was raised as a catholic. For various reasons I started to question a lot of the stuff I had been told.

I then fully went of the catholic church. Too much of the priests breaking
their own rules and raping kids for my liking. When you dismiss an entire church like I did, it raises some fundamental questions about what they were teaching. This led me down the path I am currently on, and very very happy about.

I understand that you will argue that they were wrong and what they were teaching was wrong, but it still raises questions. If they are so wrong why would god allow them to continue their untruth? Why would god allow an organisation that supposedly represents him on earth behave so badly? So in this way a church not only turned me off christianity but made me question the existence of god.

MrP

MrPudding

jaffa20 wrote: »

What has this got to do with the OP's question I think you stumbled upon the wrong thread.

Standard church of Rome is evil post FTW.

MrP

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't understand how churches could turn me off Christianity.

Well, the churches make their living by catering to the needs of people who believe the bible and who accept the message of Jesus that it contains. It's not unreasonable to assume therefore, that generally, the various christian churches should be the institutions which represent most closely the best possible implementations of the message of Jesus.

However, I think it's fair to say that churches, as social institutions, are generally far from perfect and as a rule, seem to suffer at least as much, and sometimes far more, from human frailties of one kind or another.

It's for this reason that some people conclude that the message of Jesus is not quite the perfect thing that christians make out.

anti-venom

evil-monkey wrote: »

Hi all,

Kinda feel a bit of a baffoon posting this, but anyway...

I was raised in a Catholic family, whom are all still very Catholic. Thing is, about maybe two or so years ago I really just lost my faith in the church...sort of the whole religion thing in general...

It's not that I myself miss it. It's just that, whenever you say to someone you're an atheist, they kinda look at you with shock as if I'm Devil reincarnate or something...

I dunno, it's like, they say "how could you not go to mass even at Christmas?" I'm like, because I don't believe bla bla bla and they just shut down...the minute I start asking awkward questions about the church it's end of discussion, even though they started it. I'm not a religion basher!! All my family go to mass etc etc and good luck to them. I will never say a bad word against the church unless I'm asked why I lost my faith. If you're asked a question surely you answer truthfully...

What ye guys think??

Thanks in advance

It's just that you've broken group solidarity and you are now seen as a threat to the security of the dominant group. In order to nullify the percieved threat you will have to be reabsorbed back into the group to cancel out the 'danger' to group cohesiveness that you represent.

Biro

Dave147 wrote: »

I just love the 'not going to mass at xmas' debate, I explained to my friends that I had no beliefs and I don't go to mass, only to funerals out of respect for who died. They then demanded to know why I didn't go at xmas.. I just blankly stared at them, I actually can't believe how many people ask this.. ARGHHH!

That actually bothers me too. "You don't go even at Christmas?" they'll gasp... but somehow they think it's fine to ignore their faith for 364.25 days of the year and go to mass at Christmas and claim to be able to criticise the likes of yourself.
(Not that any level allows anyone to criticise!)
You should demand to know in reply why they wait until Christmas to go to mass!

Biro

MrPudding wrote: »

I then fully went of the catholic church. Too much of the priests breaking
their own rules and raping kids for my liking.

Thats what some call throwing the baby out with the bath water. Of all the reasons to go off something, that annoys me the most.

Malari

Biro wrote: »

Thats what some call throwing the baby out with the bath water. Of all the reasons to go off something, that annoys me the most.

As The Onion once said, you're not supposed to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but no-one has yet suggested an alternative way of disposing of the baby...

I think leaving the catholic church because of the hypocrasies and horrible crimes that were committed within its protective walls, is only the start of faith-questioning for many people in Ireland. But once you reject one organised religion it is not unusual to reject them all and then the idea of a god altogether.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

Atheism takes just as much faith and zeal as Christianity, it takes faith to outright deny any form of existence of God being possible.

To counter that. No it doesn't. I'm zealously anti religious but atheism is effortless no zeal or faith required. To address the OP I think the ease and honesty of the atheist position scares christians to death especially IRC's. I appreciate the rest of the post though. I hate catholicism.

MrPudding

Biro wrote: »

Thats what some call throwing the baby out with the bath water. Of all the reasons to go off something, that annoys me the most.

Really? I think it is actually quite a reasonable way to do things. Here we have an organisation that is supposed to tell me how to live a moral and good life, yet they can’t get their own house in order. Why should I continue to listen to them? And yes, you can roll out the old “every organisation has a few bad apples” excuse but every organisation is not telling millions of people how they are supposed to live. Add to this the head of this organisation is telling me things about other people that I don’t like and telling lots of people things that they can’t do, none of which makes sense. Actually “that I don’t like” is not strictly accurate. “Just does not seem right” is probably more accurate. The more I listened to them and read about them the more I personally thought that even if there was a merciful & compassionate god, and I was having serious doubts about this as well, surely he would not be spouting this rubbish.

Malari wrote: »

I think leaving the catholic church because of the hypocrasies and horrible crimes that were committed within its protective walls, is only the start of faith-questioning for many people in Ireland. But once you reject one organised religion it is not unusual to reject them all and then the idea of a god altogether.

Exactly.

MrP

philologos

Malari wrote: »

I think leaving the catholic church because of the hypocrasies and horrible crimes that were committed within its protective walls, is only the start of faith-questioning for many people in Ireland. But once you reject one organised religion it is not unusual to reject them all and then the idea of a god altogether.

Unfortunately people haven't opened their eyes to the fact that Catholicism doesn't represent the whole of Christianity, there are plenty of Christian communities in Ireland. However I do recognise that there has been a lot of renewal and moving forward in the Catholic Church in recent decades, and I'm really encouraged by that. We all have our own struggles with keeping to the true message of the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles. We honestly try our best, sometimes the Church needs a kick in the backside to look at Biblical truth once more. We've been looking to our roots several times in our Christian history, for example The German Reformation, the English Reformation, the French Reformation, the Methodist Movement from Anglicanism. We never argue the Church is perfect, I personally think though we need people behind us instead of against us to take this chance to look at what we could do better.

Biro

MrPudding wrote: »

Really? I think it is actually quite a reasonable way to do things. Here we have an organisation that is supposed to tell me how to live a moral and good life, yet they can’t get their own house in order. Why should I continue to listen to them? And yes, you can roll out the old “every organisation has a few bad apples” excuse but every organisation is not telling millions of people how they are supposed to live. Add to this the head of this organisation is telling me things about other people that I don’t like and telling lots of people things that they can’t do, none of which makes sense. Actually “that I don’t like” is not strictly accurate. “Just does not seem right” is probably more accurate. The more I listened to them and read about them the more I personally thought that even if there was a merciful & compassionate god, and I was having serious doubts about this as well, surely he would not be spouting this rubbish.

Exactly.

MrP

What about the justice system? Full of corruption, look at lenient sentences given by judges to peadiophiles etc... Care to ditch that too? Human race - why not reject that and join a new super Pudding race cause humans are just too scummy. If one is that bad, obviously they're ALL that bad.

MrPudding

Jakkass wrote: »

Unfortunately people haven't opened their eyes to the fact that Catholicism doesn't represent the whole of Christianity, there are plenty of Christian communities in Ireland.

You seem to be missing what I think Malari was saying, and certainly what I was definitely saying. My thought process was not, catholic church bad therefore no god. It was a little more complicated than that. I had a small prayer mishap when I was 7 or 8 that started the doubts in my mind. Then the behaviour of the catholic church put me off that church. The more I read and saw the more I realised that christianity was not something I was interested in at all, it did not make sense to me. I then came to the realisation that I believed god did not exist. The behaviour of the catholic church did not put me off christianity, it put me off the catholic church. Reading and observation put me off christianity and subsequently made me agnostic.

MrP

MrPudding

Biro wrote: »

What about the justice system? Full of corruption, look at lenient sentences given by judges to peadiophiles etc... Care to ditch that too? Human race - why not reject that and join a new super Pudding race cause humans are just too scummy. If one is that bad, obviously they're ALL that bad.

The government isn't trying to sell me a fairy tale at the same time, so I will cut them a little more slack.

MrP

Malari

Jakkass wrote: »

Unfortunately people haven't opened their eyes to the fact that Catholicism doesn't represent the whole of Christianity, there are plenty of Christian communities in Ireland. However I do recognise that there has been a lot of renewal and moving forward in the Catholic Church in recent decades, and I'm really encouraged by that. We all have our own struggles with keeping to the true message of the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles. We honestly try our best, sometimes the Church needs a kick in the backside to look at Biblical truth once more. We've been looking to our roots several times in our Christian history, for example The German Reformation, the English Reformation, the French Reformation, the Methodist Movement from Anglicanism. We never argue the Church is perfect, I personally think though we need people behind us instead of against us to take this chance to look at what we could do better.

As MrP suggested, there was considerable thinking done between my rejection (almost teenage rebellion-like) of the catholic church and my rejection of gods in general. It started my critical thinking and reading around the subject. When I went to university the course I took encouraged critical and objective thinking and to make your own mind up about all things by educating yourself. At first, I did look at other religions and what they believed and eventually came to the conclusion that they were all wrong. If I had been raised in a different religion I would have rejected that dogma too.

Malari

Biro wrote: »

What about the justice system? Full of corruption, look at lenient sentences given by judges to peadiophiles etc... Care to ditch that too? Human race - why not reject that and join a new super Pudding race cause humans are just too scummy. If one is that bad, obviously they're ALL that bad.

The justice system is not something you can choose to ignore and expect to continue living your life. Anyone can reject a religion personally without retribution.

Biro

Malari wrote: »

The justice system is not something you can choose to ignore and expect to continue living your life.

I've known of some members of the travelling community (I stress, only some that I've known) could tell you differently. No fixed abode can help no end, that's why I use that ethnic group as an example, not because I have anything against them.

Biro

MrPudding wrote: »

The government isn't trying to sell me a fairy tale at the same time, so I will cut them a little more slack.

MrP

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Malari

Biro wrote: »

I've known of some members of the travelling community (I stress, only some that I've known) could tell you differently. No fixed abode can help no end, that's why I use that ethnic group as an example, not because I have anything against them.

Touche!! But apart from those miscreants, society in general has to tow the line.

philologos

Malari wrote: »

The justice system is not something you can choose to ignore and expect to continue living your life. Anyone can reject a religion personally without retribution.

So what are you saying here? If there was retribution like say in Saudi Arabia you would accept religion? That's a bit absurd don't you think?

Malari

Jakkass wrote: »

So what are you saying here? If there was retribution like say in Saudi Arabia you would accept religion? That's a bit absurd don't you think?

No, the opposite! I was contradicting the poster who said that you can't just reject religion because you don't like one facet. He likened it to rejecting the justice system because of corrupt judges.

I could go through all the rigmarole in Saudi Arabia and still be an atheist.

kelly1

I'd like to make a few points...

evil-monkey wrote: »

Hi all,

Kinda feel a bit of a baffoon posting this, but anyway...

I was raised in a Catholic family, whom are all still very Catholic. Thing is, about maybe two or so years ago I really just lost my faith in the church...sort of the whole religion thing in general...

People very often mix up the Church as a body/hierarchy and individual members in the Church. While I would never condone the sins of individual members, the sins of individuals does not make the whole Church bad. The Church is still growing in maturity until it is ready to become the bride of Christ as described in the book of Revelation. I definitely believe we are entering a new era under the papacy of Pope Benedict and I have great admiration for him.

IMO, people often use the sins of the clergy to justify leaving the Church. I sometimes wonder how many of these people continue to worship God privately or in another church?

People often wonder how some of the clergy can be so sinful if they are supposed to be priests of God's true Church. I can certainly understand this view but it must be kept in mind that Christ never promised that being a priest or a Christian automatically makes you impeccable. e.g. Judas betrayed Christ and Peter denied Him three times.

Despite the sins of the clergy, they still have the God-given autority to teach and administer the sacraments in the name of Jesus. If the power of the sacraments relied on the personal holiness of priests, Jesus would have made a big mistake.

MrPudding

kelly1 wrote: »

I'd like to make a few points...

People very often mix up the Church as a body/hierarchy and individual members in the Church. While I would never condone the sins of individual members, the sins of individuals does not make the whole Church bad.

You are right, and that is certainly not what I was saying. What it can do, and did in my case, is cause me to question the whole shooting match.

kelly1 wrote: »

The Church is still growing in maturity until it is ready to become the bride of Christ as described in the book of Revelation. I definitely believe we are entering a new era under the papacy of Pope Benedict and I have great admiration for him.

How long are we supposed to give them? How many popes who are supposed to know the will of god does it take? Surely if the popes word is infallible the first one should have got it right? Why are we still waiting?

kelly1 wrote: »

IMO, people often use the sins of the clergy to justify leaving the Church.

I am sure some do, but in a lot of cases (that I know personally) it first causes people to question the church. When the answers are found lacking, then they leave.

kelly1 wrote: »

I sometimes wonder how many of these people continue to worship God privately or in another church?

I am sure there are some, but I hope that many continue to question everything.

kelly1 wrote: »

People often wonder how some of the clergy can be so sinful if they are supposed to be priests of God's true Church.

The answer is simply that regardless of what they do for a living they are human. I take issue with the individual behaviour and the abhorrant abuses of trust that happened, but I take issue more with the organisation that they worked for that systematically hid their crimes. And no offense Kelly1, no rc apologist will everchange my opinion of that.

kelly1 wrote: »

I can certainly understand this view but it must be kept in mind that Christ never promised that being a priest or a Christian automatically makes you impeccable. e.g. Judas betrayed Christ and Peter denied Him three times.

If you children were in a school and you discovered that one of the teachers raped the children and instead of reporting the crime to the police moved the teacher to another class where be raped more kids, how would you feel about that teacher and the school? I would be very angry with the teacher for the heinous crimes he commited, but I would probably be more angry with the school that allowed him to continue to commit the crime and indeed supply him with fresh victims. That is how I feel about the rc church.

kelly1 wrote: »

Despite the sins of the clergy, they still have the God-given autority to teach and administer the sacraments in the name of Jesus. If the power of the sacraments relied on the personal holiness of priests, Jesus would have made a big mistake.

I am sorry but not in my book. As I told my mother parish priest, I will not take moral guidance from and organisation that systematically hid and protected child rapists.

MrP

Biro

MrPudding wrote: »

You are right, and that is certainly not what I was saying. What it can do, and did in my case, is cause me to question the whole shooting match.

In my opinion, these people would have left anyway, and are just happy to pin point a starting "reason", so I don't consider it a real reason.

MrPudding wrote: »

The answer is simply that regardless of what they do for a living they are human. I take issue with the individual behaviour and the abhorrant abuses of trust that happened, but I take issue more with the organisation that they worked for that systematically hid their crimes. And no offense Kelly1, no rc apologist will everchange my opinion of that.

An organisation can't do anything, the people part of it can. Anyone who did such acts, and anyone who protected them are guilty and aren't men of God.

MrPudding wrote: »

If you children were in a school and you discovered that one of the teachers raped the children and instead of reporting the crime to the police moved the teacher to another class where be raped more kids, how would you feel about that teacher and the school? I would be very angry with the teacher for the heinous crimes he commited, but I would probably be more angry with the school that allowed him to continue to commit the crime and indeed supply him with fresh victims. That is how I feel about the rc church.

That has happened too. But not too many people rejected school as a method of education.

MrPudding wrote: »

I am sorry but not in my book. As I told my mother parish priest, I will not take moral guidance from and organisation that systematically hid and protected child rapists.

I wouldn't take moral guidance from any person involved in those crimes either. But I'm not petty enough to blame everyone in the whole Catholic church for the crimes of the few.

MrPudding

Biro wrote: »

In my opinion, these people would have left anyway, and are just happy to pin point a starting "reason", so I don't consider it a real reason.

Oh thank you Biro. All these years I have been wrong about my starting reason for begining to question the question of gods existence. :rolleyes:

Biro wrote: »

An organisation can't do anything, the people part of it can. Anyone who did such acts, and anyone who protected them are guilty and aren't men of God.

An organisation can do plenty. It can put procedures in place that prevent individuals from from doing things that go against the law of the law or the ethos or even simply the rules of the company. There comes a point where you have to realise that, whilst the individual is certainly to blame, the organisation around and above him has to take some of the blame for the behavior of it's members.

Biro wrote: »

That has happened too. But not too many people rejected school as a method of education.

Perhaps not, but I think they may have rejected that particular school and / or it's management.

Biro wrote: »

I wouldn't take moral guidance from any person involved in those crimes either. But I'm not petty enough to blame everyone in the whole Catholic church for the crimes of the few.

I am not petty either, as I have said it simply caused me to question the church in general and then the existence of god, though I think I have already said that a few times and you just don't seem to get it.

MrP

kelly1

MrPudding wrote: »

You are right, and that is certainly not what I was saying. What it can do, and did in my case, is cause me to question the whole shooting match.

I think it basically boils down to the question of whether you believe the CC is the same Church founded by Christ and the nature of that Church. Some believe the Church is merely the entire body of Christian believers under Christ. Catholics believe Christ founded an institution to whom He gave the authority to speak in His name and forgiven sins and administer other sacraments. If the apostles were given the authority to forgive sins, why not bishops and priests?

MrPudding wrote: »

How long are we supposed to give them? How many popes who are supposed to know the will of god does it take? Surely if the popes word is infallible the first one should have got it right? Why are we still waiting?

It's not for us to judge others! I think you're confusing infallibility with impeccability. As I've said numerous times on other threads, Jesus promised the the Church would teach the truth infallibly. He never said that being a Christian makes one free from sin. We all have free will and we're all prone to sin. It's an effect of original sin.

MrPudding wrote: »

I am sure some do, but in a lot of cases (that I know personally) it first causes people to question the church. When the answers are found lacking, then they leave.

I was that soldier. I stopped practicing my faith for about 15 years and had no respect for the Church. I used to believe that the Church didn't have the answers to life's biggest questions and that it was only scratching the surface. That's when I turned to eastern philosophies. Big mistake!

MrPudding wrote: »

The answer is simply that regardless of what they do for a living they are human. I take issue with the individual behaviour and the abhorrant abuses of trust that happened, but I take issue more with the organisation that they worked for that systematically hid their crimes. And no offense Kelly1, no rc apologist will everchange my opinion of that.

Believe me, I find it very hard to fathom too and it puts me as a faithful Catholic in an embarrasing situation.

MrPudding wrote: »

If you children were in a school and you discovered that one of the teachers raped the children and instead of reporting the crime to the police moved the teacher to another class where be raped more kids, how would you feel about that teacher and the school? I would be very angry with the teacher for the heinous crimes he commited, but I would probably be more angry with the school that allowed him to continue to commit the crime and indeed supply him with fresh victims. That is how I feel about the rc church.

I am sorry but not in my book. As I told my mother parish priest, I will not take moral guidance from and organisation that systematically hid and protected child rapists.

Your view is understandable but either you accept that the CC is the same Church founded by Jesus with God-given authority or you don't. Terrible crimes have happended but that does not diminish God's power to operate through His ministers.

MrPudding

kelly1 wrote: »

I think it basically boils down to the question of whether you believe the CC is the same Church founded by Christ and the nature of that Church.

I think you are still missing my point. I am way way beyond worrying about the church now. The behaviour of the church and the individuals within it caused me to question not only that church but also christianity in general and then the existence of god. It was a kind of gradual process where questioning one thing led me to question the next and so on.

kelly1 wrote: »

Some believe the Church is merely the entire body of Christian believers under Christ. Catholics believe Christ founded an institution to whom He gave the authority to speak in His name and forgiven sins and administer other sacraments.

News flash Kelly1, in case you missed the clues, I am not a catholic.

kelly1 wrote: »

If the apostles were given the authority to forgive sins, why not bishops and priests?

That would be a valid question for some but not for me. You might as well ask me if I think Santa has the right to commit hundreds of thousands of acts of breaking and entry every year.

kelly1 wrote: »

It's not for us to judge others!

Is that so? If no one judged others priest would still be raping kids with impunity and there would be no, or at least less, law and order in society in general. We do have the right to judge. In fact I think we have a responsibility to judge. When a pope decides that condoms should not be made available to people in AIDS ridden third world countries I will jusdge that as wrong, as would any right thinking person. He might be called the pope but he is a human and he can be wrong.

kelly1 wrote: »

I think you're confusing infallibility with impeccability. As I've said numerous times on other threads, Jesus promised the the Church would teach the truth infallibly.

The truth that people should die of AIDS and have children they can’t keep rather than use contraception?

kelly1 wrote: »

He never said that being a Christian makes one free from sin. We all have free will and we're all prone to sin. It's an effect of original sin.

Nor would I expect them to be free of sin, but the hypocrisy stinks.

kelly1 wrote: »

I was that soldier. I stopped practicing my faith for about 15 years and had no respect for the Church.

It deserves no respect.

kelly1 wrote: »

I used to believe that the Church didn't have the answers to life's biggest questions and that it was only scratching the surface. That's when I turned to eastern philosophies. Big mistake!

Each to their own. My discovery, covered by point 3 in the charter, has made my life so much happier. It now makes sense. Everything.

kelly1 wrote: »

Believe me, I find it very hard to fathom too and it puts me as a faithful Catholic in an embarrasing situation.

As it should. I feel sorry for you that you have so much faith in an organisation that seems to do so much to make it hard for people to continue to follow it.

kelly1 wrote: »

Your view is understandable but either you accept that the CC is the same Church founded by Jesus with God-given authority or you don't. Terrible crimes have happended but that does not diminish God's power to operate through His ministers.

I don’t, so it’s nice and simple.


MrP