Whats that coming over the hill, is it a BAILOUT?

ZYX

faceman wrote: »

I dont think thats a fair comment. Whether people are buying houses or buying electronics goods, it is all generated revenue for the government. However the economic gain of buying a house is larger than buying say a new car. After all, buying a house doesnt just involving pay builders. It involves a number of different companies and industries, from bathroom suppliers, to waste disposal, crane hire, etc etc etc. Most if not all of these companies/suppliers are based in Ireland and create employment.

Also tax on housing is higher than on other products. You have to pay VAT and Stamp Duty. Then Stamp Duty again every time house is resold. Imagine if you had to pay stamp duty when you bought a second hand car!

ZYX

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Said buyers only bought because they thought they would make out like bandits, not out of some altruistic desire to support the government. They are owed nothing, full stop, especially not a bailout that will transfer the debt from private to public hands, in particular because Ireland is constrained to keep borrowing to a certain level in order to be compliant with EU standards.

Also you need to look at where the taxes are being spent. If social and affordable housing is to a great extent no longer needed, because houses have become cheaper all by themselves, that takes a huge strain off the system. If the public sector gets chopped down to size, another huge strain is gone. You don't need to replace taxation sources if your expenses reduce by measurable amounts.

Finally, if the government was to focus on export based industries in Ireland, we could more than make up for whatever damage the construction folly has done to the country. Odds of them having the foresight to do that however?

I think you missed my point. I am not saying relying on a property boom is a good thing to do. However that is the situation we are in. We are not going to trade our way out, or get by with cutbacks, unless government gets really serious which they won't. Taxes are going to be raised.

SimpleSam06

faceman wrote: »

I dont think thats a fair comment. Whether people are buying houses or buying electronics goods, it is all generated revenue for the government. However the economic gain of buying a house is larger than buying say a new car. After all, buying a house doesnt just involving pay builders. It involves a number of different companies and industries, from bathroom suppliers, to waste disposal, crane hire, etc etc etc. Most if not all of these companies/suppliers are based in Ireland and create employment.

Look up the "broken window fallacy" there, like a good man.

SimpleSam06

ZYX wrote: »

We are not going to trade our way out, or get by with cutbacks, unless government gets really serious which they won't. Taxes are going to be raised.

You must give me the number of your psychic, I wish I had that much certainty about the future. In any case, what are you trying to say, we'll rue the day the property developers went under? They were raping the population as a whole to line their own pockets, ultimately leaving us in an untenable situation. May they never return.

ZYX

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

You must give me the number of your psychic, I wish I had that much certainty about the future.

We are facing a large budget deficit. Costs are rising rapidly. Income is falling even more rapidly. I don't need to see the future. I see the present. We need income now, or certainly in next 12 months. There is no possible way our trade can increase enough in the next 12 months to make up the shortfall. It is simply not going to happen.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

In any case, what are you trying to say, we'll rue the day the property developers went under? They were raping the population as a whole to line their own pockets, ultimately leaving us in an untenable situation. May they never return.

Well for the third time I am saying taxes are going to go up. I never said anything about supporting property developers

faceman

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Look up the "broken window fallacy" there, like a good man.

Makes sense Sam, make sense! We're not talking about bakers and spoilt buns dude!

DonJose

I think the government should cease collecting stamp duty and introduce a annual property tax of 1% for principal place of residence properties and 1.5%for investment property. Those who paid stamp duty could claim relief, for example if you bought a property last year and paid €30k stamp duty and your annual property tax is €3k, then you would be exempt from paying property tax for 10 years.

mathie

subway wrote: »

you can earn more money in interest in the bank, plus your money wont devalue at massive rates.

That is until the Government increases DIRT to 40%

ast

DonJose wrote: »

I think the government should cease collecting stamp duty and introduce a annual property tax of 1% for principal place of residence properties and 1.5%for investment property.

There is no way the government will do that, it’s far to radical, besides it’s better to "hide" the tax in the price of a house and then people can spread the payments over 40 years.

bangersandmash

DonJose wrote: »

I think the government should cease collecting stamp duty and introduce a annual property tax of 1% for principal place of residence properties and 1.5%for investment property. .

And suddenly you punish the cash-poor elderly people who didn't choose to cash in on their family homes during the boom, and may be entirely unable to sell now. Should those people suffer to make life easier for FTBs? Tax on investment properties is one thing, but tax on a PPR has much wider ramifications.

ast

I think the good people that run the country know full well that any FTB grant will easily be covered by the tax take on the sale of the property (this is especially true if the FTB allows others to trade up). I think that’s all they know; I doubt there is any consideration to anything else.

Sounds a bit like the SSIA where rather than just lower taxes the government "gave" us "free" money.

Calina

faceman wrote: »

I dont think thats a fair comment. Whether people are buying houses or buying electronics goods, it is all generated revenue for the government. However the economic gain of buying a house is larger than buying say a new car. After all, buying a house doesnt just involving pay builders. It involves a number of different companies and industries, from bathroom suppliers, to waste disposal, crane hire, etc etc etc. Most if not all of these companies/suppliers are based in Ireland and create employment.

Sorry. You've lost me. Are you suggesting that I should pay an overinflated price for my house because you think it's better economically for the country? What about my interests? I get screwed over on a daily basis because the tax I am paying pays my idiot local reps 100K a year to do sweet shagall about providing me with a functional public service, transport system, school, water supply and you expect me to feed even more money into that when I'd prefer to be spending less money on a badly manufactured breadbox of an apartment and more money on the nice things in life like people in other countries can do?

In other words, I resent the implication that it would be patriotic of me to lie down and have my ass whipped financially in buying a house. We are screwing over the working people in this country by implying that spending excess money on houses we can't afford is somehow good.

DonJose wrote: »

I think the government should cease collecting stamp duty and introduce a annual property tax of 1% for principal place of residence properties and 1.5%for investment property. Those who paid stamp duty could claim relief, for example if you bought a property last year and paid €30k stamp duty and your annual property tax is €3k, then you would be exempt from paying property tax for 10 years.

I strongly disagree. I believe stamp duty should be flatrated and there should be a punitive tax on unused second properties but because valuations, sale prices and all that are the stuff of Stephen King novels in this country I want no annual taxes on primary residences. We will get ripped off.

Supercell

Indeed if the government wants to do whats right for the vast majority of people and raise tax income - tax non PPR's.
End result - more revenue, houses become cheaper..the economy gets back on its feet and the pigs at the developer trough get a little leaner.

subway

Supercell wrote: »

Indeed if the government wants to do whats right for the vast majority of people and raise tax income - tax non PPR's.
End result - more revenue, houses become cheaper..the economy gets back on its feet and the pigs at the developer trough get a little leaner.

but as calina pointed out, before that happens we absolutely need transparency in house sale prices.
without that we cant "value" anything.

Supercell

subway wrote: »

but as calina pointed out, before that happens we absolutely need transparency in house sale prices.
without that we cant "value" anything.

Yep we definitely need that as well, without transparency all that happens is this gets dragged out and out as people are deluded into thinking that houses in their neighbourhood are "worth" more than they are actually selling for in reality.
Just look at the crash in the North compared to the south. Similar houses with similar people to us yet house prices are plummeting there and they'll be back on their feet way before our long long drawn out crash finally unwinds.

Will it happen?, not while FF or FG are at the helm..in other words forget it.

gamer

They should provide extra tax allownces for landlords who rent,to single people,students and people on disability allowance,subject to strict criteria ,each unit should be energy effecient ,and be at least a certain size.This might stimulate the building industry.

faceman

Calina wrote: »

Sorry. You've lost me. Are you suggesting that I should pay an overinflated price for my house because you think it's better economically for the country? What about my interests? I get screwed over on a daily basis because the tax I am paying pays my idiot local reps 100K a year to do sweet shagall about providing me with a functional public service, transport system, school, water supply and you expect me to feed even more money into that when I'd prefer to be spending less money on a badly manufactured breadbox of an apartment and more money on the nice things in life like people in other countries can do?

Jaysus Calina, now where in my post did i say that people should do that? I pointed out a incorrect comment made by a previous punter.

SimpleSam06

ZYX wrote: »

We are facing a large budget deficit. Costs are rising rapidly. Income is falling even more rapidly. I don't need to see the future. I see the present. We need income now, or certainly in next 12 months. There is no possible way our trade can increase enough in the next 12 months to make up the shortfall. It is simply not going to happen.

True enough, I've said it myself in the past, taxes most likely are going to go up, mostly due to ongoing costs set up during the boom. So basically, taxes will probably be going up because of the boom, yet another thing to lay at the feet of those responsible. Although with that said, the government is seeking an urgent meeting with the EU to expand the amount Ireland is allowed to borrow (exceeded by a billion this year and even more next year). If those mitigating steps are taken, the damage might not be as bad.

faceman wrote: »

Makes sense Sam, make sense! We're not talking about bakers and spoilt buns dude!

Funnily enough, neither is the broken window fallacy. Ease back on the oul' speed reading, ha?

SimpleSam06

gamer wrote: »

They should provide extra tax allownces for landlords who rent,to single people,students and people on disability allowance,subject to strict criteria ,each unit should be energy effecient ,and be at least a certain size.This might stimulate the building industry.

Why? With the tragic rental returns available in most of the country, you'd would be insane to buy a property for rental in this environment, regardless of tax shenanigans.

faceman

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Funnily enough, neither is the broken window fallacy. Ease back on the oul' speed reading, ha?

I know what the Broken Window analogy is, but i just dont think its fits correctly with the property market at present.

SimpleSam06

faceman wrote: »

I know what the Broken Window analogy is, but i just dont think its fits correctly with the property market at present.

Indeed, the property market is worse. Instead of the economy simply having to replace something that was lost, at the cost of further growth and expansion, its out multiples of the GDP pissed away on overpriced properties we don't need, which need to be repaid with enormous interest over the next thirty or forty years, at the cost of healthy growth and expansion.

At least the baker didn't need a loan to replace his window, or buy dozens of windows in the hope that they would somehow be worth more in a few years.