Discussion of John Cage's 4'33"

Talliesin

John Cage's 4′33″. The three-movement composition from 1952 that decades later he still said he considers the most important of his own work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E

funky penguin

Talliesin wrote: »

John Cage's 4′33″. The three-movement composition from 1952 that decades later he still said he considers the most important of his own work.

Personally, I think its the most egotistical piece of writing in music.

It's from the head, not the heart.

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

Personally, I think its the most egotistical piece of writing in music.

It's from the head, not the heart.

Don't see why that makes it bad, though. I think good composers need both in equal measure.

funky penguin

Oh I agree. But there's no heart in that piece.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I like to listen to music.

It has no where near the emotional effect on me that say, a Bach cello suite or a Brahms piano work might have on me.

I never feel the need to listen pieces like this again (and yes, I get the whole 'its never the same piece' thing with 4 33. You could argue that with any piece of music).

On the flip-side, I'd gladly listen to Rachmaninov's Prelude in B Minor everyday for the rest of my life.

Anyway...I'm rambling! I know what I likes and that ain't it.

Norrdeth

What kind of Lazy composer do you have to be to write this piece, come on i'm lazy and i'd never write a no note work! I really hope he wasnt entirely serious, if so i hope this isn't the future of music!

tSubh Dearg

Moved posts into a seperate thread, as I think the discussion could be interesting.

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

Oh I agree. But there's no heart in that piece.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I like to listen to music.

Cage's whole point is that you should listen to 4'33". His comment after the premiere was something to the effect of 'Well, there was music - people just weren't listening properly. In the first movement there was the sound of wind. In the second movement, some rain fell on the roof, and the audience made all kinds of interesting noises during the third movement as they walked out.

I think there's a lot more beauty contained in silence (or, more to the point, near-silence) than in a lot of 'actual' music.

It has no where near the emotional effect on me that say, a Bach cello suite or a Brahms piano work might have on me.

Here we can agree. But I could say that also about any piece by Chopin or Schumann.

I never feel the need to listen pieces like this again (and yes, I get the whole 'its never the same piece' thing with 4 33. You could argue that with any piece of music).

Again, that's true, but a major issue I have with 'classical' music is that almost clone-copies are required when reproducing a piece. I think it's far better to have music that can be something completely different the second time you listen to it.

I'm not usually into the whole Cage school - aleatoricism and all that - but I do often find the music they make fascinating. I think it's possible to listen to anything if you approach it with an open mind.

That said, everyone's got tastes, and everyone is narrow-minded about one thing or another. (Absolutely no offence is meant there, by the way, and I'm glad that you did at least listen to the piece before deciding you didn't like it.)

I think the kind of people who enjoy Cage's music most are into 'timbrel' music. I think this kind of music has a lot to be said for it, partly because it's a completely new invention for the twentieth century.

If you're interested in some Cage that's a little bit less experimental, I'd recommend some of the prepared piano pieces. You get to hear the piano as though it were a primitive percussion instrument, and it really is something completely unique.

Two final lines of defence of the piece: firstly, I find it invariably to be the best piece to play first when I'm practising. Concentrated listening - especially to 'silence' - I find very much improves my musical reception while I practise, and puts me in the right mindset to begin; and secondly, kids love it. I've done the piece a few times with theory classes, and it's one of the few pieces that my classes actively engage with. Just a discussion of the piece is fascinating in itself.

Edit: Norrdeth, Cage was many things, but he was not lazy.

funky penguin

I know what Cage was trying to do with the piece, and that's what I dislike. It's noise, as he said. While some may compare this to music, I think there's a huge chasm of difference between people walking and a Beethoven piano sonata. I've been thinking about this for the past year or so (since I first heard 4'33'') and I think its to do with my need to see effort in music.

It has to do a little bit with what Norrdeth said. I know he's not lazy, but he can come across so in this piece. It feels empty (no pun intended) and soulless. Compared to Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto (just for an example) which brings me through a roller coaster of emotions from sorrow to joy to sadness to triumph in a piece which has huge compositional and performance effort in it....for me, there's no contest

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I want my music to be music, not art.

Thats the best way I can put it!


I respect what Cage did. It was new, daring and took courage. I've listened to some of the prepared piano pieces (and was also surprised by some of his early tonal work! :eek: )and have tried putting everything from paper to guitar slides to my hands in my piano since. He's an influence...I just don't like 4'33"...as music. There! I think thats the best way I can put it.

By the way, have you ever seen it performed live? Is it a regular piece on the international calender? I'd love to go to a performance of it.

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

I know what Cage was trying to do with the piece, and that's what I dislike. It's noise, as he said. While some may compare this to music, I think there's a huge chasm of difference between people walking and a Beethoven piano sonata. I've been thinking about this for the past year or so (since I first heard 4'33'') and I think its to do with my need to see effort in music.

It has to do a little bit with what Norrdeth said. I know he's not lazy, but he can come across so in this piece. It feels empty (no pun intended) and soulless. Compared to Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto (just for an example) which brings me through a roller coaster of emotions from sorrow to joy to sadness to triumph in a piece which has huge compositional and performance effort in it....for me, there's no contest

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I want my music to be music, not art.

Thats the best way I can put it!

And it's very well put. But I support his view that we're far too precise with our definitions of what art or music should be. What I do find amusing is the number of people who'll seriously listen to this, or Ligeti's Poème Symphonique, but refuse to sit through a track by The Beatles.

I respect what Cage did. It was new, daring and took courage. I've listened to some of the prepared piano pieces (and was also surprised by some of his early tonal work! :eek: )and have tried putting everything from paper to guitar slides to my hands in my piano since. He's an influence...I just don't like 4'33"...as music. There! I think thats the best way I can put it.

Well, like it or not, 4'33" has probably had the biggest influence on art - music and otherwise - of anything in the second half of the twentieth century. This of course includes both people who supported the idea, and those who railed against it.

By the way, have you ever seen it performed live? Is it a regular piece on the international calender? I'd love to go to a performance of it.

No, but you've just given me a great idea - I've been looking for repertoire for my ensemble, and that would, I think, suit us very well. Look out for performances early next year! (And yes, I'll be keeping everything posted on Boards.)

funky penguin

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

And it's very well put. But I support his view that we're far too precise with our definitions of what art or music should be. What I do find amusing is the number of people who'll seriously listen to this, or Ligeti's Poème Symphonique, but refuse to sit through a track by The Beatles.

Their lives are empty husks! My friend says I have terrible taste in music because I don't own a Tiesto CD, and he says so with a serious face.

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Well, like it or not, 4'33" has probably had the biggest influence on art - music and otherwise - of anything in the second half of the twentieth century. This of course includes both people who supported the idea, and those who railed against it.

Very true. This is the most I've thought about music all summer.

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

No, but you've just given me a great idea - I've been looking for repertoire for my ensemble, and that would, I think, suit us very well. Look out for performances early next year! (And yes, I'll be keeping everything posted on Boards.)

Look forward to hearing..eh, seeing,.....eh... being there.

Where is your ensemble based? Is it contemporary?

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

Their lives are empty husks! My friend says I have terrible taste in music because I don't own a Tiesto CD, and he says so with a serious face.

Er, forgive my ignorance but...who?

Very true. This is the most I've thought about music all summer.

I'm just glad to see this board finally getting some use

Look forward to hearing..eh, seeing,.....eh... being there.

Where is your ensemble based? Is it contemporary?

Still recruiting. Will be contemporary - mostly living composers, probably (with a good deal of self-pluggage), but I want to be fairly open-ended in programme choice.

Norrdeth

Perhaps my earlier post was a bit narrow minded now that I look again.
Penguin and I are taking 20th century music this year, so I thought I'd try to be a bit more open minded

I suppose music is whatever you make it out to be. Some works have profound effects on people, and at the same time hardly warrant a listen from others.
Music creates discourse, and discourse is the foundation of Art.
Well mostly with 20th and 21st century art at least.

Anywho....
Good luck with your Contemporary ensemble Mad Hatter!
Hope it goes well for you.
=D

funky penguin

Woops forgot about this thread.


Yeah, and in our first lecture Dr. Watson introduces us the the Helicopter Quartet and Cage's 4' 33''!

I'm coming around to understanding 20th and I'm looking forward to this series. I've already thought about elements of 20th music to put in my original composition module, and much to my surprise it's going to make it MUCH harder. All the more fun though.

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

Woops forgot about this thread.


Yeah, and in our first lecture Dr. Watson introduces us the the Helicopter Quartet and Cage's 4' 33''!

Now there's a piece I hate. Too much money, too little point.

I'm coming around to understanding 20th and I'm looking forward to this series. I've already thought about elements of 20th music to put in my original composition module, and much to my surprise it's going to make it MUCH harder. All the more fun though.

As a curiosity (you may have mentioned this before), are you in Maynooth?

Setun

funky penguin wrote: »

Oh I agree. But there's no heart in that piece.

The audience's heart is in the piece if the room is quiet enough... :rolleyes:

I think it is a fantastic piece tbh, it's changed the way I listen positively. While I understand that as a "traditional" piece of "music" it may be hit and miss depending on what sounds are naturally occurring in the performance space, but as an experience and as a thought provoking work it's surely one of the mpst important of the 20th century.

funky penguin

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

As a curiosity (you may have mentioned this before), are you in Maynooth?

I am indeed, just started second year BMus.

Undergod

What I do find amusing is the number of people who'll seriously listen to this, or Ligeti's Poème Symphonique, but refuse to sit through a track by The Beatles.

I love Ligeti, but Poème Symphonique is bollocks.

4'33" is a great idea, and can work really well- I have seen a few videos of performances that are interesting enough. I like the fact that audience heckling is a valid part of the live performance .

The Mad Hatter

Undergod wrote: »

I love Ligeti, but Poème Symphonique is bollocks.

4'33" is a great idea, and can work really well- I have seen a few videos of performances that are interesting enough. I like the fact that audience heckling is a valid part of the live performance .

What I love is audiences heckling Cage pieces like that, and other members telling the to shut up so they can hear the music!:D

I think Poème Symphonique needs to be seen as well as heard - and alas I've never done either. I do like the idea of it, though.

funky penguin

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What I love is audiences heckling Cage pieces like that, and other members telling the to shut up so they can hear the music!:D

Now look what you've done...I've gone and lolled all over the place.

I would pay money to see/hear this.

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

Now look what you've done...I've gone and lolled all over the place.

I would pay money to see/hear this.

Saw a discussion of one such piece on a forum I used to frequent - I'll see if I can dig it up. It's not exactly that, but pretty close...

...Aaaand it seems to have disappeared. Sorry.

slumped

Norrdeth wrote: »

What kind of Lazy composer do you have to be to write this piece, come on i'm lazy and i'd never write a no note work! I really hope he wasnt entirely serious, if so i hope this isn't the future of music!

Cage was not lazy - he was revolutionary.

The Mad Hatter

I certainly think he could have been, but for some reason music hasn't gone the same conceptual route that art has over the last forty years. I think far more people admire his philosophies than admire his music. (I, for the record, like both, even though I'm not that kind of composer.)

Dudess

Sorry, the emperor has no music.

Call me a philistine or ignorant or whatever but just because it was clever of Cage to make this point (if he wasn't taking the piss) doesn't mean it's necessary to gush and ooh and aah about how brilliant a piece of "music" it is.

Piste

I agree with Dudess on this, it does seem incredibly "Emporer's New Cloths"-ey for my taste. In fact the whole thing seems like a cop out. The idea of listening to silence is nothing new, certainly not a 20th century idea, and it does not take great skill to get people to listen to silence or to appreciate silence.

funky penguin

But its not silence! Cage's point was that there is never such a thing (unless, I dunno, you're in a vacuum....surviving).

With this piece he managed to create something that is completely different everytime its performed, and with it created the most important (but also the most annoying) piece of music for the last 50 years or so.

As music, I hate it.

As a philosophy (as Mad Hatter said above) I love it.

Argh! I going around in circles.

Dudess

It's not music either though. He didn't compose anything.

funky penguin

No, but he gave the audience/weather/whatever makes noise the chance to compose, and that's where the music comes from.

I'd love to go see this with a group of friends and start a game of Bollox.

Or start humming in pre arranged triads. Oh! Or jump on stage and actually start playing the piano.

Bah! Whatever you do you're playing into Cage's hands. Such is the genius I think!

The Mad Hatter

Dudess and Piste - out of curiosity, how would you define music?

Norrdeth

funky penguin wrote: »

Oh! Or jump on stage and actually start playing the piano.

I wonder would the usher people grab you if you did that, methinks it's worth a try, or if they have a cello or harp get up and strum it wildly!
While dancing merrily, or you could reenact your own interpretation of the Right of Spring by dancing furiously with a comical hat on! Con Fuoco i say!

The Mad Hatter

No, but he gave the audience/weather/whatever makes noise the chance to compose, and that's where the music comes from.

I'd love to go see this with a group of friends and start a game of Bollox.

Or start humming in pre arranged triads. Oh! Or jump on stage and actually start playing the piano.

Bah! Whatever you do you're playing into Cage's hands. Such is the genius I think!

I read someone on a forum who pulled out a harmonica during a performance of Terry Riley's In C. The conductor apparently kept going, and even offered the aspirant harmonicaist an encouraging smile and a wink.

cornbb

Music doesn't have to have melody, notes, rhythm, tonality, or instruments to be music. But at the same time I'm not sure I agree with Cage's philosophy that all sound is music. Bearing that in mind, I don't see 4'33" as a piece of music as much as a piece of art with music as its theme, and its a far more important and provocative piece of art than most musical compositions are.

Its aim was to force people to listen to silence, and realise there is no silence in our environment. Environmental sound has became a very important part of the avant garde music of the last 100 years (and of mainstream music, to a lesser extent) and 4'33" has contributed to its acceptance. To the haters I would say don't think of it as a composition, a piece of music, whatever, think of it as a philosophical statement on the nature of music itself. 4'33" can make you think and otherwise have an effect on you without ever attending a performace of it. Therein lies its value.

Piste

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Dudess and Piste - out of curiosity, how would you define music?

Something with tones. Any tones!* Even if 4"33 were just a single note being played on repeat for 4 minutes and 33 seconds I'd grudgingly accept it's music. Music isn't the same as sound, 4"33 is sound, and not even sound created by the Composer, the sort of sound heard in 4"33 can be heard everywhere, and doesn't need to be "performed" to be appreciated.



*following on from this, I wouldn't consider drumming on its own to be music as it's just rhythm.

Norrdeth

Piste wrote: »

Something with tones. Any tones!* Even if 4"33 were just a single note being played on repeat for 4 minutes and 33 seconds
*following on from this, I wouldn't consider drumming on its own to be music as it's just rhythm.

You're contradicting yourself there as technically drums do have notes as everything resonates at a certain pitch even furniture and walls.
I in fact would consider percussion musical and not only the tuned sort, ever hear of Timbral music? I'm sure a drum solo would be significantly more musical then a repeated drone on a piano.

cornbb

Piste wrote: »

*following on from this, I wouldn't consider drumming on its own to be music as it's just rhythm.

Drumming also has timbre, structure, repetition, tempo and plenty of other musical characteristics. If you start using the presence/lack of such characteristics as a basis of what defines music you'll find yourself running into many brick walls. I find that "organised sound" is a good broad simple definition of what constitutes music.

Drums do not necessarily have any tone/fundamental pitch btw.

The following piece (also by John Cage) does have tones, would you consider it music at all, and if so would it be more or less musical than a drum solo?

(You might need to crank the volume up a bit)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVN_mxVntXk

4"33 is sound, and not even sound created by the Composer, the sort of sound heard in 4"33 can be heard everywhere, and doesn't need to be "performed" to be appreciated.

And that is exactly the purpose of 4'33", the point is to make people listen to ambient sounds in relative silence. Doing it in the context of a "performance" just facilitates this process.

The Mad Hatter

Piste wrote: »

Something with tones. Any tones!* Even if 4"33 were just a single note being played on repeat for 4 minutes and 33 seconds I'd grudgingly accept it's music. Music isn't the same as sound, 4"33 is sound, and not even sound created by the Composer, the sort of sound heard in 4"33 can be heard everywhere, and doesn't need to be "performed" to be appreciated.



*following on from this, I wouldn't consider drumming on its own to be music as it's just rhythm.

Fair enough, though I disagree with you on the point of drum music - African drum music, as well as Steve Reich's Drumming which was inspired by it, is amazing.

Not sure whether I mentioned it earlier on these pages, but 4'33" isn't one of my favourite pieces. However, I'd still rather listen to it than something by Harrison Birtwistle for instance.

(Or Chopin, but that's just me.)

funky penguin

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

(Or Chopin, but that's just me.)

:eek:

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

:eek:

Yeah, yeah.

Just never found it really that interesting - always thought Scriabin's music in the same vein was much more moving.

The Agogo

My philosophy is that Music= sound + maths .

This piece has no maths.

Other than that, after three years doing a postgrad PhD, I submitted my theses entitled : 'The Effects of Silence on the Written Page: Cage's Contribution to the Genre' - all that I gave in was four and half blank pages.

Of course it was obvious that I was taking the piss so, needless to say, they never gave me my doctorite.

BTW, Anyone know where i can download the score for this?

Norrdeth

You'll have to find it somwhere in public domain, it's illegal to download and photocopy music janow