The Qualifiers gives a lethal second chance to the Big Guns

CyberDave

When the qualifiers were introduced in both hurling and football they were to give every team a second chance and help develope the weaker counties and the likes of Fermanagh have proved this. The second chance is good for everyone, especially the stonger counties like Kerry, Armagh and Tyrone in football. Would any of those teams have been as successful in the last few years if qualifiers hadn't been introduced. In the past when Cork would have beaten Kerry in Munster, Kerry were gone for the year. Now, it seems they have to beat them twice, nearly every year. I can only see Kerry and Kilkenny (to a lesser extent, because of the lack of competitiveness in Leinster) becoming stronger in the years ahead. If in the next couple of years(or centuries) Offaly or Wexford do manage to turn over Kilkenny in Leinster, they still wont be gone out of the championship.

The big teams in both codes will become more prolific and the gap between the strong and the weak will only widen. What do people think of this theory?

hawkwing

I totally agree, since the backdoor came in hurling Cork and Kilkenny have taken over--worst year being when waterford and wexford won provincial titles and neither ended up in the final--we got another cork/cats final. I also think that it has affected the Leinster hurling as before if wexford or offaly gave all for 70mins and bet the cats they were gone and you were in an all ireland semi v Antrim or Galway,now it means nothing as they will come back and beat you anyway and when they go 6pts down they give up. Surely the waterford teams that won munster 3 times deserved a final more than this year when clare trounced them??Cork Kerry has turned into another worn out joke that nobody cares much for anymore.
If last years FA cup gave utd,chelsea etc a second go would we have had a Portsmouth/Cardiff final....

Racing Flat

I've always thought that - maybe the top 2 seeded teams in hurling and 3-4 in football should be not allowed the back door route...

Racing Flat

hawkwing wrote: »

Cork Kerry has turned into another worn out joke that nobody cares much for anymore.

True. And such a pity when it used to be a highlight every year, Killarney, Cork, Killarney, Cork... not the same now that we know there will probably be a Dublin meeting later on in the year.

Yavvy

whats the point of this thread ? discussed at lenght for the last two weeks here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055358289

think I should merg or is there somethign new here ?

K-9

CyberDave wrote: »

When the qualifiers were introduced in both hurling and football they were to give every team a second chance and help develope the weaker counties and the likes of Fermanagh have proved this. The second chance is good for everyone, especially the stonger counties like Kerry, Armagh and Tyrone in football. Would any of those teams have been as successful in the last few years if qualifiers hadn't been introduced. In the past when Cork would have beaten Kerry in Munster, Kerry were gone for the year. Now, it seems they have to beat them twice, nearly every year. I can only see Kerry and Kilkenny (to a lesser extent, because of the lack of competitiveness in Leinster) becoming stronger in the years ahead. If in the next couple of years(or centuries) Offaly or Wexford do manage to turn over Kilkenny in Leinster, they still wont be gone out of the championship.

The big teams in both codes will become more prolific and the gap between the strong and the weak will only widen. What do people think of this theory?

Kerry and Tyrone wouldn't have been as successful without the Qualifiers, Armagh probably would have been more!

The problem with the football is that Munster and Connaught with smaller provinces are treated the same as the others!

EG. Mayo and Kerry Only winning one game get in 2 rounds ahead of Down with a similar record.

Pride Fighter

Perhaps a reverse of what happened this year should happen. Teams from division 1 being seeded and as a result dont get a second chance whereas every other team gets a second chance.
I know it will never happen in a million years.

CyberDave

Alany wrote: »

whats the point of this thread ? discussed at lenght for the last two weeks here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055358289

think I should merg or is there somethign new here ?

I don't think it's exactly the same The other post is about giving the provincial champions a second chance. My point in this post is more to say that the likes of Kerry, who were beaten this year in Munster are still in the championship and everybody knows that Kerry will take the second chance with both hands, and also to raise the point that the qualifer system, instead of helping the weaker counties is actually empowering the stronger counties in both codes.

Erin Go Brath

If the qualifiers were binned you'd have Kerry, Tyrone etc taking their provincial championships a lot more seriously than they currently do. The cream always comes to the top!

I think the qualifiers are a good idea. Everyone should be guaranteed at least 2 games in the Championship, better for the players, better for fans, better all round than the bad old days in which your season could be over in 70 minutes!

Yavvy

@ Dave

Ill let this run , I dont really understand how its much different of the other discussion but worthy of a chance I guess.

aidan24326

It's inevitable that the better teams will rise to the top no matter what format you use. Simple as that.

taidghbaby

OP i see your point, but perhaps theres also an arguement to be made that teams are now planning their year with the qualifiers in mind!!

now im not suggesting that kerry purpously let cork win the munster final, but perhaps they have catered their training so that are reaching the peak in august/september!!

maybe a lot of teams are doing this in the knowledge that chances are they will still be in the championship at this stage!!

also perhaps this is the reason that the standard of games have improved immensly over the past few weekends!! the top teams are not at their best in may/june/july simply because they don have to be!!

CyberDave

aidan24326 wrote: »

It's inevitable that the better teams will rise to the top no matter what format you use. Simple as that.

Yes, The exact point we are making, but now more than ever because they have a second chance.

hawkwing

aidan24326 wrote: »

It's inevitable that the better teams will rise to the top no matter what format you use. Simple as that.

No it's not, Kerry would be gone and Cork also if limerick hadn't blown it in the last 2 mins, we could be looking at another Cork/Cats final if the draw was different too.The big guns can get caught once but that's it.

mumhaabu

Just cut to the chase admit ye hate Kerry and this begrudgery is typical when Kerry is going well. Was there such ideas when Tyrone beat Kerry in 2005? No only applause Kerry congratulate and applaud the back door we won in 2006 through it hope to do so again this year. Ask a Wexford or Tyrone person what they think of it why not? It seems that according to some posters here we should make the GAA a hypocrite organisation where if Kerry lose they should be excluded but include everyone else and make it a rule that Dublin must win the All-Ireland. pfftt....

hawkwing

"Ask a Wexford or Tyrone person what they think of it why not? "--
Ask Armagh,Dublin, or Sligo,Westmeath,Laois who never even got to All-Ireland semi's cos of it.

The Laois and Antrim hurlers have come on a pile since the backdoor- getting trounced twice now and no semi or Croke Park for Ulster anymore--not long ago Antrim,Derry and Down were all getting very close to All ireland finals, now 2 are not allowed in and the other must beat Galway,Laois,Offaly,Wexford and Tipp to get to a final.
Armagh own the Ulster title but never get to a final,Dublin the same,Cork and Kerry is a 3 time a year thing that they won't even watch themselves anymore and now it takes 3 games on the same day to get an atmosphere in Croke Park.At least we didn't end up with a Wexford/Dublin semi in the football--if Dublin trounced them again it's a joke and if Wexford came back and won it would be more farcical--you beat a team by 23pts and play them again.
yes we have more games but less crowds at most with less interest and 2 hidings or a few games with no trophy is not much good for anyone.
Kerry are the best team for the last few years but it's ridiculous
that Tipp could beat them by 20 points in a first round now and they will still be there and probably remain favourites for the title,and that if Kerry win by 20 Tipp are given a second go??what's the point,which team benefits?

Waylander

mumhaabu wrote: »

include everyone else and make it a rule that Dublin must win the All-Ireland. pfftt....

WTF have Dublin got to do with this discussion. In fact Dublin have sufferred more than most as they have lost more than 1 quarter final as provincial champions. However, I think the back door system is an improvement, I think thelikes of Westmeath, Limerick and Fermanagh have come on in leaps and bounds due to the extra games that they get each year, with Westmeath even winning provincial honours.

Its true the big teams geta second bite of the cherry, but there are a couple of points to counter that. Firstly, the likes of Kerry would set their entire season up differenlty, and to my mind would be less likely to lose a Munster Championship match. Secondly, the readmission of teams through the qualifiers makes the meeting of the likes of Dublin v Tyrone or other big games a more realistic possibilty, creating a better average game for the spectator. Finally, if the big teams are readmitted they are just as likely to meet other big teams and take each other out which does not really ensure that the big teams will win.

Before the qualifier system, Tyrone and Armagh were considered relatively unsuccessful counties with 1 senior AI title (I think, am open to correction though) between them. I think the qualifier system assisted these teams in becoming big teams, as traditionally they were not. Especially as they were both from the same province. So to say the qualifier system is not a succes to my mind is just wrong.

Waylander

hawkwing wrote: »

"Ask a Wexford or Tyrone person what they think of it why not? "--
Ask Armagh,Dublin, or Sligo,Westmeath,Laois who never even got to All-Ireland semi's cos of it.

The Laois and Antrim hurlers have come on a pile since the backdoor- getting trounced twice now and no semi or Croke Park for Ulster anymore--not long ago Antrim,Derry and Down were all getting very close to All ireland finals, now 2 are not allowed in and the other must beat

They may have been getting close to playing in a final, but they were light years from ever winning one. Dont be kidding yourself using that as a point.

hawkwing

Waylander wrote: »

They may have been getting close to playing in a final, but they were light years from ever winning one. Dont be kidding yourself using that as a point.

Well, all except Antrim are not even allowed in now and they have all completely fallen away and Ulster hurling only sees Croke Park on TV as their only reps need 4 games to get there.
Ulster football didn't need the backdoor from 91-94 either(how has it helped Armagh?).Backdoor is good for the media as more games fills columns etc. The football open draw in Munster brought on Tipp,Limerick and Clare in the early 90's (not the backdoor)as you only had to beat one of them and then you were in an All Ireland semi and munster champs, now you must beat both,then Tyrone for ex to get to that stage,and then for example cork and Kerry again for the title perhaps...Give me 4 teams from different provinces as winnners in the football semis anytime instead of the crap now,If it is Kerry,dublin,galway,armagh then fair enough,or wexford,monaghan,sligo,limerick even better but not a mix up of 2 or more from one province who have already met and no-one wants to see again.

smashey

mumhaabu wrote: »

Just cut to the chase admit ye hate Kerry and this begrudgery is typical when Kerry is going well. Was there such ideas when Tyrone beat Kerry in 2005? No only applause Kerry congratulate and applaud the back door we won in 2006 through it hope to do so again this year. Ask a Wexford or Tyrone person what they think of it why not? It seems that according to some posters here we should make the GAA a hypocrite organisation where if Kerry lose they should be excluded but include everyone else and make it a rule that Dublin must win the All-Ireland. pfftt....

mumhaabu, consider this a warning. Why you bring Dublin into this inthe way you did is beyond me. Stay on topic please.

Waylander wrote: »

Before the qualifier system, Tyrone and Armagh were considered relatively unsuccessful counties with 1 senior AI title (I think, am open to correction though)

They had a big fat zero between them before the qualifier system.

Waylander

hawkwing wrote: »

Well, all except Antrim are not even allowed in now and they have all completely fallen away and Ulster hurling only sees Croke Park on TV as their only reps need 4 games to get there.
Ulster football didn't need the backdoor from 91-94 either(how has it helped Armagh?).Backdoor is good for the media as more games fills columns etc. The football open draw in Munster brought on Tipp,Limerick and Clare in the early 90's (not the backdoor)as you only had to beat one of them and then you were in an All Ireland semi and munster champs, now you must beat both,then Tyrone for ex to get to that stage,and then for example cork and Kerry again for the title perhaps...Give me 4 teams from different provinces as winnners in the football semis anytime instead of the crap now,If it is Kerry,dublin,galway,armagh then fair enough,or wexford,monaghan,sligo,limerick even better but not a mix up of 2 or more from one province who have already met and no-one wants to see again.

You are missing my point regarding Ulster hurling, they were never up there to fall away in the first place. I think the hammering that Antrim took on a yearly basis did them more harm than good. I still think there is room for improvment in the hurling set up but I think it is better than it was pre the back door.

As for Muster football, I disagree, it was the back door system and additional championship games that brought Limerick on, and Tipp were looking a better team for a few years also, but sadly have fallen back away. Even with the open draw, they still had to beat at least either Cork or Kerry so I do not see how this improved them.

I think the way it works now is a far better way of having it. The best teams are always going to do well regardless of the setup of the draw, as Aidan and the OP have stated. At the time I was totally oppossed to the back door introduction, but believe it has improved things dramatically now.

Pride Fighter

Waylander wrote: »

You are missing my point regarding Ulster hurling, they were never up there to fall away in the first place. I think the hammering that Antrim took on a yearly basis did them more harm than good. I still think there is room for improvment in the hurling set up but I think it is better than it was pre the back door.

Antrim made it to an AI final in 1989 beating Offaly on the way. I remember the Ulster winners being competitive in the early part of this decade. In 02 Antrim lost a quarter final to Tipp by 7 points in 03 they lost to Wexford by 3 points. Now they dont even make the quarters as they are drawn against the likes of Galway and Waterford in the qualifiers.

Waylander

Has there not been a back door system since the late 90's in hurling?

vorbis

I'd echo the idea that the top teams shouldn't have the backdoor available to them. How about a simple rule? The All Ireland Quarter finalists each year don't get the backdoor advantage for the following season. Its supposed to be there to help WEAKER teams. The likes of Kerry benefiting from it is ridculous imo.
Because of it, winning the provincial championships means shag all now.

cruiserweight

Waylander wrote: »

Has there not been a back door system since the late 90's in hurling?

Since 1997

Waylander

cruiserweight wrote: »

Since 1997

So pride fighter you werte kind of proving my point with your listing of Ulsters hurling progress in this decade.

cruiserweight

Waylander wrote: »

So pride fighter you werte kind of proving my point with your listing of Ulsters hurling progress in this decade.

Just to clarify it has been around in various forms since 1997. In the earlier years it was just the beaten provincial finalists in Munster and Leinster that got back in, for example Tipp made the final through the backdoor in 1997 and Offaly won it that way in 1998. More recently we have had the groups and now a seeded knock out system in the qualifers.

Waylander

vorbis wrote: »

I'd echo the idea that the top teams shouldn't have the backdoor available to them. How about a simple rule? The All Ireland Quarter finalists each year don't get the backdoor advantage for the following season. Its supposed to be there to help WEAKER teams. The likes of Kerry benefiting from it is ridculous imo.
Because of it, winning the provincial championships means shag all now.

That is an interesting idea, and at least you are making a proposal rather than just bad mouthing the current system. From a purely practical point of view though, this would have to lead to byes etc in the qualifiers to get down to 4 teams to play the provinvcial winners as there would be less teams in the draw, also the provincial winners would still be on a 1 loss and you are out format, which is what brought this topic up in the first place.

Waylander

cruiserweight wrote: »

Just to clarify it has been around in various forms since 1997. In the earlier years it was just the beaten provincial finalists in Munster and Leinster that got back in, for example Tipp made the final through the backdoor in 1997 and Offaly won it that way in 1998. More recently we have had the groups and now a seeded knock out system in the qualifers.

Ah right okay, I stand corrected. But to be fair, I still dont see a problem. If Antrim cant beat the likes of those teams, then they should not be getting to AI semi's and finals. It still shows flaws in the old system, where they were guarunteed to get a semi slot, regardless of whether they merited it or not. They may have got a couple of decent results over the years, but considering they only really needed to win 2 matches to claim Liam, they still didnt actually win it. They were always a long way off the pace.

Pride Fighter

Waylander wrote: »

So pride fighter you werte kind of proving my point with your listing of Ulsters hurling progress in this decade.

How? Read my posts. I said that Antrim lost to Tipp by 7 points in 02 in a quarter final and that they lost to Wexford by 3 points in 03. Those were 2 close games, they were only a hair's breath from the semi final. You said

You are missing my point regarding Ulster hurling, they were never up there to fall away in the first place

The fact is I pointed out that they were up there in the early part of the decade and have only fallen away since they were shoved out of the quarter final stage to give the stronger counties a second chance they dont deserve.

Waylander

Pride Fighter wrote: »

How? Read my posts. I said that Antrim lost to Tipp by 7 points in 02 in a quarter final and that they lost to Wexford by 3 points in 03. Those were 2 close games, they were only a hair's breath from the semi final. You said

The fact is I pointed out that they were up there in the early part of the decade and have only fallen away since they were shoved out of the quarter final stage to give the stronger counties a second chance they dont deserve.

Yeah my point was that the early part of this decade was post back door being introduced and they were still competitive, but it was only the losing Leinster and munster finalists in through the back door so my point does not really stand up.

hawkwing

Antrim are only one of several examples, Derry and Down also nearly made the breakthrough and now they are not even allowed compete.
In football as stated earlier Sligo,Laois,Westmeath got nothing from provincial titles (not even semi places)But the basic point that cannot be argued is that if you have Kerry v Waterford in football and Cats v Dublin in hurling who benefits from a second chance, pre back door if the underdogs won Kerry/Cats were out and you were very near a provincial title and all-ireland semi,now it means very little and the less succesful underdog will never catch the big team twice.As for Wexford they got to the Leinster final on their own merit without a second go,are now in a semi which they would have been anyway if they beat Dublin so the backdoor alone has hardly brought them on.
it has taken the bite and crowds from 80% of championship games in both codes and finished the leagues as everyone is still arsing around in the championship in July (with again 80% of them no hopers) and messed up club games in even the worst counties all for the sake of "1 game is not enough for all the training"--do you not have 7 league games and often many club teams to play with also, and how are 2 beatings better than 1??

Waylander

Those team never made the breakthrough in hurling, and were never close. They may have had occassional good performances, but the only reason they got anywhere near an AI final is because there was no decent standard in their province. They were nowhere near the top 4 teams in the country yet were guarunteed a semi place every year. Now if you are telling me that that is a fair system I think you are barking! There are much better teams who didnt get near the semis on an annual basis because their provinces were so strong.

On the football front, hawkwing I am not going to change you mind but those counties mentioned have improved dramatically since the introduction of the back door, and they have maintained that improvement. Wexford have not benefitted from the back door this year, but in years gone by the extra matches they played have made them a better team.

Het-Field

Scrapping the backdoor system would be regressive. However, the possibility of reform should not be ignored.

This year Galway's prize for winning the Connaught Title was a tie against 5 time this decade winners Kerry, Dublin's prize was a tie against two times this decade winners Tyrone, while Cork's prize for defeating Kerry by 5 points wa another tie against Kerry. On paper only Armagh got a decent draw, and that was only on paper.

Im not sure if I like this. Of course I am slightly biased, but i know Galwegians, and Corkonians who feel similar.

Reform, must be based on the concept of putting the provincial winners first. This could include
-Guaranteeing a choice of Venue for the Provincial Champion
-A Free Draw where regardless of teams meeting in a provincial final, they can play again
-Separation of the Winners and Backdoor winners, and play each other off, before 2 backdoor take on two provincials in the final
-The creation of an All Ireland B competition for all those who exit at provincial level


These are only rough ideas. However, I am very anti the idea of a Tyrone v Kerry final, when both have lost one game already this year

cruiserweight

Some interesting ideas

Het-Field wrote: »

-Guaranteeing a choice of Venue for the Provincial Champion

Not a bad idea. However you may still have teams complaining that they don't get their day out in Croke Park which they should as provincial winners.

Het-Field wrote: »

-A Free Draw where regardless of teams meeting in a provincial final, they can play again

They won't rectify some of the problems that you have highlighted above, Cork v Kerry etc.

Het-Field wrote: »

-Separation of the Winners and Backdoor winners, and play each other off, before 2 backdoor take on two provincials in the final
play again

You will still have some teams that have lost only one game going out, while other teams that have lost one still go through. In fact you are guaranteeing that two teams go out having lost 1 game while two go through having lost 1 game.

Het-Field wrote: »

-The creation of an All Ireland B competition for all those who exit at provincial level

You mean something like the Tommy Murphy cup, which has been rubbished by lots of teams

ArmaniJeanss

On the Asian Pool tour, they have pure double chance competitions.

Basically the winners side of the draw plays down to 1 player.
Everyone who was beaten at any stage goes into the losers side which also plays down to 1 player.

The two remaining players then play the final, but if (and only if) the player from the 'losers side' wins the final then it is played again (and the winner of that game is the overall winner obviously).

This is the only way to ensure that you don't have the situation whereby for some teams their first defeat means they are out whilst others get the second chance.

The concept of a 'double final' may be unpalatable for the GAA though, but anything else will just leave the current anomaly.

shano

It would appear that I am not the only one on here who is sick of the current stale format of the back door or qualifier system.

The provincial title is now meaningless except to the weaker counties who never have a realistic chance of the big one anyway.

This is what I propose - let me know what you think...

* Open draw with each team given a seeding based on their progress in league and championship over last 10 years
* Based on having 32 counties participating I would envisage 8 groups of 4
* Each team guaranteed minimum of 3 games
* Top 2 teams in each group proceeds to second round knock-out series
* The winners of these ties would enter the quarter-finals and so on to the final

The provincial series could be retained but ran as a separate competition involve to the four furthest progressing counties in each province who would participate in two semis and a final.

This may not be an entirely original idea but I think this is a good place to get a debate going...

ArmaniJeanss

shano wrote: »

It would appear that I am not the only one on here who is sick of the current stale format of the back door or qualifier system.

I thought this was thread was more about the 'fairness (or not)' of the qualifier system - I doubt many people think the system is particularly stale.
Personally I really enjoy it.

Notwithstanding that I approve of your idea anyway and would love to see it - but the problem will always be the provincial championships as the councils don't want to give up their power.
(And its a nonsense to say the provincial championships can be played anyway, they would just be O'Byrne Cup equivalents).

Hence we've ended up with the current system.

plasmaguy

The Back Door System really isn't fair or equitable.

Wicklow beat Kildare in the first round yet lose one game and are out while Kildare have a great run through the back door.

Cork win the Munster Final but it's really a disadvantage since if they lose again they are out, same for Galway in Connaght, Dublin in Leinster and Armagh in Ulster.

It would be interesting to know the stats on how many back door teams have won the AI Vs front door teams, I think that would settle the question of whether it's an advantage being in the back door or not, since front door teams are obviously the best in their province yet fall down probably because of lack of match practise thereafter.

I personally would like to see a round robin league type system in the provinces, with the top two going into the provincial finals or else home and away legs in the quarters, anything that would give provincial champions a second chance.

K-9

Interesting article in the Tribune yesterday on it.

Cooper just has to turn up against Clare to be in the last 12!

McGrath of Fermanagh has to turn in 2 massive performances against Monaghan and Derry to get to the same stage!

Can anybody say that's fair?

shiibata

Seanies32 wrote: »

Interesting article in the Tribune yesterday on it.

Cooper just has to turn up against Clare to be in the last 12!

McGrath of Fermanagh has to turn in 2 massive performances against Monaghan and Derry to get to the same stage!

Can anybody say that's fair?

No, its not fair.. sure if the fixtures went bad, say for donegal, we could play ARMAGH in prelimenary round, DERRY in 1st round, TYRONE in semi and would still only be in last 12.. where as the munster seeding gives kerry a bye to thel last 12

premierstone

shiibata wrote: »

No, its not fair.. sure if the fixtures went bad, say for donegal, we could play ARMAGH in prelimenary round, DERRY in 1st round, TYRONE in semi and would still only be in last 12.. where as the munster seeding gives kerry a bye to thel last 12

Well you can thank our wise friends in Waterford for the debacle that is the munster football championship

shano

Seanies32 wrote: »

Interesting article in the Tribune yesterday on it.

Cooper just has to turn up against Clare to be in the last 12!

McGrath of Fermanagh has to turn in 2 massive performances against Monaghan and Derry to get to the same stage!

Can anybody say that's fair?

and go back further if you will to remember the so called "golden age" of football when Dublin and Kerry dominated. Kerry came through to the final series practically unchallenged and Ulster remained as toughly contested as ever - by the time a team from the north made it through they were either exhausted or ravaged by injury and easily brushed aside in a semi. but God forbid anyone would question the greatness of those Kerry teams of old - just watch some of the TG4 repeats and marvel at the skills on show... hmmm sometimes I wonder :cool:

sslazio11

shano wrote: »

and go back further if you will to remember the so called "golden age" of football when Dublin and Kerry dominated. Kerry came through to the final series practically unchallenged and Ulster remained as toughly contested as ever - by the time a team from the north made it through they were either exhausted or ravaged by injury and easily brushed aside in a semi. but God forbid anyone would question the greatness of those Kerry teams of old - just watch some of the TG4 repeats and marvel at the skills on show... hmmm sometimes I wonder :cool:

Well whoever it was that cited Kerry begrudgery earlier on has his answer here. We started with a debate on the merits of the qualifiers, where Kerry have it too easy, and now we're going back to an age before the qualifiers, and Kerry had it too easy then as well. Kerry still had to get past a very competitive Cork team, and then face the best representatives of the other provinces.

I'm not sure about the viability of scrapping the provincial championships, not sure how the provincial councils would react to that one. The possibility of a Champions League type draw does sound intiguing, but who's to say we wouldn't end up with the same teams at the business end of the championship anyway? Definitely worth consideration though.

premierstone

sslazio11 wrote: »

I'm not sure about the viability of scrapping the provincial championships, not sure how the provincial councils would react to that one. The possibility of a Champions League type draw does sound intiguing, but who's to say we wouldn't end up with the same teams at the business end of the championship anyway? Definitely worth consideration though.

Fact is you will still end up with the same two teams in the AI - the best two - as for having a champions league style format it will never happen for a number of reasons namely provincial councils, and far more importantly the fixture calender is already overloaded and some thought has to be given to club players who would be big loosers it this was intoduced as club football would effectively become a winter sport.

shano

sslazio11 wrote: »

Well whoever it was that cited Kerry begrudgery earlier on has his answer here....

call it begrudgery if you like but I think it would've been a travesty if that Kerry team had stolen a win on Sunday through a late goal because they would've been lauded as one of the greatest teams of all time and that would be incorrect. Their recent AI successes have come against sides which let's face it folded much too easily. There is no doubt that reaching an AI final is a magnificent achievement and doing it so regularly tells you a lot about the character of the Kerry team but I honestly believe Kerry's route through Munster or through the qualifiers (as they are currently structured) has been slightly easier than other teams who have reached AI finals over the past decade.

The switch to a CL style format would mean big changes but I believe if some of the weaker counties in the country knew before the season began that they had at least 3 games in the championship they would be able to improve from one season to the next and also their county boards could plan the club championships with the fixed dates of those group games in mind.

Agus

premierstone wrote: »

Fact is you will still end up with the same two teams in the AI - the best two - as for having a champions league style format it will never happen for a number of reasons namely provincial councils, and far more importantly the fixture calender is already overloaded and some thought has to be given to club players who would be big loosers it this was intoduced as club football would effectively become a winter sport.

Surely the champions league format would not involve extra rounds? It would mean that the minimum number of games played would be 3 not 2, but the maximum would not increase.

EamonnKeane

What exactly is wrong with a system that ensures the best team wins the All-Ireland? Would you rather we just picked a county out of a hat?

Agus

EamonnKeane wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with a system that ensures the best team wins the All-Ireland? Would you rather we just picked a county out of a hat?

Ensuring the best team wins the AI is certainly important for any format, but is isn't the only consideration. I think the people who are proposing alternatives feel that something other than that is a problem and their proposals attempt to allow the best team to win and still improve on the other aspects.

sslazio11

shano wrote: »

call it begrudgery if you like but I think it would've been a travesty if that Kerry team had stolen a win on Sunday through a late goal because they would've been lauded as one of the greatest teams of all time and that would be incorrect. Their recent AI successes have come against sides which let's face it folded much too easily. There is no doubt that reaching an AI final is a magnificent achievement and doing it so regularly tells you a lot about the character of the Kerry team but I honestly believe Kerry's route through Munster or through the qualifiers (as they are currently structured) has been slightly easier than other teams who have reached AI finals over the past decade.

The switch to a CL style format would mean big changes but I believe if some of the weaker counties in the country knew before the season began that they had at least 3 games in the championship they would be able to improve from one season to the next and also their county boards could plan the club championships with the fixed dates of those group games in mind.

I never argued that this Kerry team were one of the greatest teams of all time. You're right, reaching 5 finals in a row, and 6 in 7 years is very impressive, but they're a very good team, not a great team.

I do take issue with you trying to question the Kerry team of the mid-to-late 70s and mid 80s in your first post. They were one of the finest gaelic football teams ever to play the game. Winning 7 All-Irelands in 9 years is a phenomenal achievement, whatever you might think of the inequities of the format back then.

premierstone

Agus wrote: »

Surely the champions league format would not involve extra rounds? It would mean that the minimum number of games played would be 3 not 2, but the maximum would not increase.

Well 3 is more than 2 So if you have a group of 4 what happens if three of them finish an the same amount of points, but only two go through?? If you use scoring averages its completely unfair as it gives an advantage to the team that played the fourth place team last when they were probably already eliminated.

Aside from all that anyway there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current system off course you will have people complaining because ultimately only two teams can reach an AI in any given year so thats 30 counties who miss out and instead of trying to improve and develop from within they take the easier, lazier option and blame the ''system'' :rolleyes: