The main problem with Atlantis.

Mal-Adjusted

Now, dont gat me wrong, i love all things stargate (except that cartoon one) but i think their main problem is'nt with the stories or arcs, but with the constant dropping of characters.
In season two, we dropped Ford (Fair enough, it's his own fault) and introduced Ronin. now, he's cool, but obviously just trying to be Teal'c. it also made carson a regular, but he practically was one anyway.
Then in the ass-end of Season three, we kill off Becket.
In season four we see the end of Wier, for no reason other than to bring in Carter. (At the start of S1, Tori Higginson signed a six year contract). it also brought in Keller, from the last ep of S3, and, in the last few eps, had carson back.
Now, in season five, we loose carter, and bring in Woolsey. WTF? we also have Keller made a regular! once again WTF?
Sg-1 went 5 years witouth making any cast changes, swapped Daniel for Jonus when shanks went all west-end, then in season 7 things were back to normal.

What do you all think?
,

cyberwit

Could not a agree with you more. Stargate SG-1 they had the same people for the first five years which ment that we explored the charaters as much as planets eg the Relationship between Carter and O'Neil.

Dont get me wrong i have watched SG-1 since the very beginning as well as Atlantis but the constant changes in characters detracted from the show perhaps furthermore by season five of SG-1 a hole mythology had developed around the show but not enough of the wraight has been explored in atlantis.

Overheal

actually if you pay attention a couple sg-1 characters have been there since the go of atlantis. well mckay obviously, but Major Lorne appeared in at least one sg-1 episode, with the Unas Mine.

DingChavez

The problem with that is none of the SG-1 characters were bad like Wier or Ford. They took way too long getting rid of Wier.

J-blk

Part of the premise of Stargate Universe does make it sound like it could end up being a revolving door of cast members...

senordingdong

J-blk wrote: »

Part of the premise of Stargate Universe does make it sound like it could end up being a revolving door of cast members...

But we already have that with Atlantis.

So long as Sci Fi channel have a hand in the making of a Stargate show, no original cast member will be safe.

Gareth-W-A

senordingdong wrote: »

But we already have that with Atlantis.

So long as Sci Fi channel have a hand in the making of a Stargate show, no original cast member will be safe.

Well, Sci Fi have expressidly stated that it will be an ALL NEW cast in universe, but as i stated in the other main atlantis thread, i think that a full cut-off of universe from pegasus and earth would alienate universe in a way that some fans may not appreciate. I know i enjoyed seeing sg1 characters filter in and out of atlantis.
Gets me all Nostalgic.

krpc

senordingdong wrote: »

But we already have that with Atlantis.

So long as Sci Fi channel have a hand in the making of a Stargate show, no original cast member will be safe.

A pity they didn't threaten Ben Browder with that! :cool:

Gareth-W-A

i-bloodhound wrote: »

A pity they didn't threaten Ben Browder with that! :cool:

Yea, never really grew on me...
Tried to be O'Neill in a stupid obnoxious way that made me mad.

alastair_doom

J-blk wrote: »

Part of the premise of Stargate Universe does make it sound like it could end up being a revolving door of cast members...

I like this idea. I enjoyed the recent ep of Atlantis with the all new all girl team, purely because when they were put in peril, there was an actual inkling that they might get killed.

More exciting episodes all round might be a good trade off for (some) character development. Never really felt there was much character development in SG1 anyway. Stuff like the relationship between Carter and O'Neil was only ever mentioned in about 5 episodes, and never even really directly mentioned.

Gareth-W-A

alastair_doom wrote: »

More exciting episodes all round might be a good trade off for (some) character development. Never really felt there was much character development in SG1 anyway. Stuff like the relationship between Carter and O'Neil was only ever mentioned in about 5 episodes, and never even really directly mentioned.

I'm not so sure about that. I don't want to spoil anything so dont read this unless youve seen episode 6 of season 5

the episode 'the shrine' shows how episodes without any action can still show different interactions between characters i.e. keller and mckay

I also agree with the connotation that O'Neill and Carters relationship was never developed, but only because that would be heading towards disaster within the team.
I disagree with the way you've stated there was not much character development during sg1.
I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who will disagree with you on that one mate.

krpc

alastair_doom wrote: »

I like this idea. I enjoyed the recent ep of Atlantis with the all new all girl team, purely because when they were put in peril, there was an actual inkling that they might get killed.

I'm wondering if your intentions for enjoying that episode were all that honourable :pac: I do agree that it was good to see some fresh faces and it was interesting to see an all-female team.

I loved the exchange when Shepherd was curious about why it was an all-female team and received the response: "I was asked to put together the best team".

Unfortunately, attractive women et al

(including Nicole deBoer [Ezri Dax from DS9)

, I thought the episode stunk and turned it off before the end.

alastair_doom wrote: »

More exciting episodes all round might be a good trade off for (some) character development. Never really felt there was much character development in SG1 anyway. Stuff like the relationship between Carter and O'Neil was only ever mentioned in about 5 episodes, and never even really directly mentioned.

:eek: For shame I think how understated it was... kinda said it all.

Gareth-W-A

i-bloodhound wrote: »

I thought the episode stunk and turned it off before the end.

It wasn't great, but who knows how many more episodes we'll have left with beckett.

krpc

Gareth-W-A wrote: »

It wasn't great, but who knows how many more episodes we'll have left with beckett.

True. Funnily enough, I thought the recent episodes of Atlantis were quite good and it was beginning to appeal to me a little more than usual, but that recent episode .. gah! Back to the drawing border me thinks.

Gareth-W-A

i-bloodhound wrote: »

True. Funnily enough, I thought the recent episodes of Atlantis were quite good and it was beginning to appeal to me a little more than usual, but that recent episode .. gah! Back to the drawing border me thinks.

I would agree, but that episode was essentially the movie "the descent" with a hint of stargate. I am not impressed. They only used like 12 actors for that episode anyway.

krpc

Since this thread concerns opinions on the main problem with Atlantis, I'm hating on the fact that, other than super-Michael, the team on Atlantis have managed to dispatch the core of the Wraith threat; a feat that not even the Lanteans/Ancients could accomplish, even with all their technological advancement. I would have much preferred it if the Wraith were given the credit and screen time that they deserved as a pure embodiment of evil. After the three part Siege episodes, it was downhill from there and ultimately I never really felt that Atlantis was under too of a threat. The replicators were thwarted relatively easy too. Gone are the days when the viewer genuinely felt grave concern for the safety of their beloved characters The same goes for the Ori in SG-1. Two similar enemies that have plagued their respective galaxies for so long and within a relatively short period of time they're defeated. :mad:

krpc

Gareth-W-A wrote: »

I would agree, but that episode was essentially the movie "the descent" with a hint of stargate. I am not impressed. They only used like 12 actors for that episode anyway.

Cast cuts, eh?

Gareth-W-A

i-bloodhound wrote: »

Since this thread concerns opinions on the main problem with Atlantis, I'm hating on the fact that, other than super-Michael, the team on Atlantis have managed to dispatch the core of the Wraith threat; a feat that not even the Lanteans/Ancients could accomplish, even with all their technological advancement. I would have much preferred it if the Wraith were given the credit and screen time that they deserved as a pure embodiment of evil. After the three part Siege episodes, it was downhill from there and ultimately I never really felt that Atlantis was under too of a threat. The replicators were thwarted relatively easy too. Gone are the days when the viewer genuinely felt grave concern for the safety of their beloved characters The same goes for the Ori in SG-1. Two similar enemies that have plagued their respective galaxies for so long and within a relatively short period of time they're defeated. :mad:

I completely agree!
How long did it take to take down Apophis for good?
And Anubis for instance?
Baal?
These days they just set em up, and knock em down!
It's downright laziness!!!

Mal-Adjusted

In response to the above comment.

Apophis: main villan for season one, two, three (a little bump with Sokar), and four.:)
Anubis: main villan for season five, six, seven, and eight. (though in 5 & 8 it's mostly guys working for him):D
Ba'al: been in the background for season five to Continuum:cool:
Replicators: introduces in season three, defeated in season eight (and briefley in AOT):eek:

But this is all beside the point.
Wraith: introduced in season one, pretty much deflated by mid season three. still a bit of a threat.:(
Pegasus Replicators: introduced in season three, defeated midway in season four!

Rsaeire

It's almost as if the writers are struggling to find new ways in which to either dispatch the enemies or create new storylines. For instance, how many times have we seen an SG1 storyline in Atlantis? I understand there will always be episode we don't like or episodes that are boring, but for a writer actually ripping themselves off, that is a new low.

Gareth-W-A

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

In response to the above comment.

Apophis: main villan for season one, two, three (a little bump with Sokar), and four.:)
Anubis: main villan for season five, six, seven, and eight. (though in 5 & 8 it's mostly guys working for him):D
Ba'al: been in the background for season five to Continuum:cool:
Replicators: introduces in season three, defeated in season eight (and briefley in AOT):eek:

But this is all beside the point.
Wraith: introduced in season one, pretty much deflated by mid season three. still a bit of a threat.:(
Pegasus Replicators: introduced in season three, defeated midway in season four!

Thanks for completely proving my point!
They just don't make bad guys like they used to...

Gareth-W-A

Rsaeire wrote: »

It's almost as if the writers are struggling to find new ways in which to either dispatch the enemies or create new storylines. For instance, how many times have we seen an SG1 storyline in Atlantis? I understand there will always be episode we don't like or episodes that are boring, but for a writer actually ripping themselves off, that is a new low.

To be fair, that is a noticable trait in many atlantis episodes, but i think the differences in how sg1 and sheppard's team would react to similar situations. I think this is what keeps the shows seperate.

krpc

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

In response to the above comment.

Apophis: main villan for season one, two, three (a little bump with Sokar), and four.:)
Anubis: main villan for season five, six, seven, and eight. (though in 5 & 8 it's mostly guys working for him):D
Ba'al: been in the background for season five to Continuum:cool:
Replicators: introduces in season three, defeated in season eight (and briefley in AOT):eek:

But this is all beside the point.
Wraith: introduced in season one, pretty much deflated by mid season three. still a bit of a threat.:(
Pegasus Replicators: introduced in season three, defeated midway in season four!

Ba'al was more of an irritation, like a bad rash, than a threat! I must admit though, from all the villains in SG-1 and SGA, I certainly feel Anubis was the greatest threat. I really do wish they had done more with the Wraith as they had a lot a lot of potential.

Gareth-W-A

i-bloodhound wrote: »

Ba'al was more of an irritation, like a bad rash, than a threat! I must admit though, from all the villains in SG-1 and SGA, I certainly feel Anubis was the greatest threat. I really do wish they had done more with the Wraith as they had a lot a lot of potential.

Yea, i must agree on the subject of Baal. There was a lot of "Baal is tearing the system lords a new one" talk, but a lot less action. That kind of happened towards the end of season 4 of SGA with Michael terrorising pegasus.

Is it me, or does the sole goal of Atlantis seem to be pissing off 90% of the pegasus galaxy as opposed to sg1's actual goals of obtaining new technology. How many actual allies(advanced enough to help) have they made?

krpc

Gareth-W-A wrote: »

Yea, i must agree on the subject of Baal. There was a lot of "Baal is tearing the system lords a new one" talk, but a lot less action. That kind of happened towards the end of season 4 of SGA with Michael terrorising pegasus.

Is it me, or does the sole goal of Atlantis seem to be pissing off 90% of the pegasus galaxy as opposed to sg1's actual goals of obtaining new technology. How many actual allies(advanced enough to help) have they made?

None, that I recall.

Since we're on the topic of other races ... the main problem with Atlantis, again, is the Genii. "Kolya!" :mad:

Gareth-W-A

i-bloodhound wrote: »

None, that I recall.

Since we're on the topic of other races ... the main problem with Atlantis, again, is the Genii. "Kolya!" :mad:

At least they had Colm Meaney...that's something.

Mal-Adjusted

who remembers back in season 1 whethe wraith needed a whole clip in them to be taken down? now it seems that a few shots to the chest will do.
They used to be a fairley scary menace (i certainley would'nt like to meet one down a back alley:P)

Also, for SG-1 to spend over a year searching for this marvelous lost city chock-a-block full of ancient weapons and technology, we do see very little exploring of the city

One new dynamic i noticed is with a less military structure of the staff, they can explore a lot more with the relationships...if that's your thing...

ixoy

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

One new dynamic i noticed is with a less military structure of the staff, they can explore a lot more with the relationships...if that's your thing...

Which makes sense as it's civilian run and it's good to have a different dynamic. I imagine "Universe" will have the most military bent of all the shows and the hard decisions that may need to be made (in keeping with their notion of emulating aspects of BSG).

Agreed on the above - Atlantis didn't have a definable threat after S1. We had no sense of fear or overwhelming odds and it's something "Stargate: Universe" may not have either if they're jumping from point to point each week.

Should Atlantis mirror any earth mythologies when they weren't seeded from Earth cultures? Should Universe do the same? I would like to see some more unique culture that's original - something the Genii failed to do, with their Cold War feel. It's a difficult task but surely there's the spark of creativity still - it is what the writers are paid for.

Gareth-W-A

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Also, for SG-1 to spend over a year searching for this marvelous lost city chock-a-block full of ancient weapons and technology, we do see very little exploring of the city

I agree with that connotation.
There's very little new technology IN atlantis.
Jumpers and drones were indroduced in sg1, ascention devices were mentioned in sg1(anubis)
I really think that the buildup of this Lost City full 'o weapons in sg1 kind of bottomed out.
Earth must be pissed...

Ziggy_1972

I think it's distracting to see so many Trek actors. When Woolsey teleported in wearing a uniform that looked quite Trek, I half-expected him to say "Please state the nature of the medical emergency".

ixoy

Ziggy_1972 wrote: »

I think it's distracting to see so many Trek actors. When Woolsey teleported in wearing a uniform that looked quite Trek, I half-expected him to say "Please state the nature of the medical emergency".

Trek is far from the worst - SG-1 employed the two main leads in 'Farscape' and about half the cast of 'Firefly' have appeared regularly in the franchise. Trek gets off lightly enough, although at least one actor from each of the modern Trek franchises has appeared at some point in the SG franchise!

Mal-Adjusted

ixoy wrote: »

Trek is far from the worst - SG-1 employed the two main leads in 'Farscape' and about half the cast of 'Firefly' have appeared regularly in the franchise. Trek gets off lightly enough, although at least one actor from each of the modern Trek franchises has appeared at some point in the SG franchise!

Adam Baldwin was i 1 episode of SG-1, Morena Baccarin was in 5 episodes. Jewel staite was a semi regular on atlantis from season 4 and a regular from season 5. hardly half the cast.

They actually wanted Ben Browder for Major Shepard, but used Joe Flannigan 'coz Ben was filming the Peacekeeper wars...now, Just try to imagine the actors for Sheppard and Mitchel swapping roles...

Overheal

in fairness its just a case of needing to have a talented actor pool that is interested in the work. you very often will see the same actors working within the same loose genre their entire lives. I've noticed the BSG actors popping up all over the place myself. And some people that got their start as extras and guest stars on SG-1 are still doing science fiction today.

Ben Browder as Shepphard? to be honest, I worry it would have really flared Atlantis's spin-offness. It wouldn't have lasted.

Mal-Adjusted

it was mentioned somewhere back the line that Atlantis just recycles some old SG-1 storeylines for it's (stand alone?) episodes. i can't really find any of these on eps i've seen. can anyone give an example please?
Thanks!

P.S. this show would have been better if Wolsey had just been brought in during season 4! he's not in it much, but when he is, he's pure gold!

TheIrishGrover

now I believe it's just that we don't care about the characters. They're all uni-dimensional clicjes we've seen time and time again:

Shepherd: ST:TNG Riker Season 1-2. Action man.
Tayla (Or however you spell it: ST:TNG Troi. Exotic semi telepathic female alien
Ronin: St:TNG Worf. Warrior alien
McKay: ST:DS9 Bashir. Genius Doc

You could go through every single character the same way. The thing is, regarding the characters above: Their counterparts in their series' (With the possible exception of Troi) all developed over the years. Especially the Riker/shepherd character. Where have the Atlantis characters gone from and to? They're exactly the same as day one and you know that they will be exactly the same at the end. No development. no chance of a character getting written off at the drop of a hat. They need Joss Whedon to write the next spinoff series

I mean, look at what they did to Chriton... I mean... whatever-Ben-Bowder's-Character's-name-was in SG1. A fine actor with great comic timing who SHOULD have fitted in well with SG1 but they just tried to make another O'Niell to keep everything at a nice level status quo.

Mal-Adjusted

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

now I believe it's just that we don't care about the characters. They're all uni-dimensional clicjes we've seen time and time again:

Shepherd: ST:TNG Riker Season 1-2. Action man.
Tayla (Or however you spell it: ST:TNG Troi. Exotic semi telepathic female alien
Ronin: St:TNG Worf. Warrior alien
McKay: ST:DS9 Bashir. Genius Doc

You could go through every single character the same way. The thing is, regarding the characters above: Their counterparts in their series' (With the possible exception of Troi) all developed over the years. Especially the Riker/shepherd character. Where have the Atlantis characters gone from and to? They're exactly the same as day one and you know that they will be exactly the same at the end. No development. no chance of a character getting written off at the drop of a hat. They need Joss Whedon to write the next spinoff series

I mean, look at what they did to Chriton... I mean... whatever-Ben-Bowder's-Character's-name-was in SG1. A fine actor with great comic timing who SHOULD have fitted in well with SG1 but they just tried to make another O'Niell to keep everything at a nice level status quo.

i'mgoing to have to correct you there, of course characters can be gotten rid of...just look at Beckett! nobody saw that coming, the way they wrote out Fort and Weir (Wier?) not to mention numerous recurring characters...

Ronan has gone from a gruff, untrusting, shifty runner who's lost everything to him except hate, to a steadfast, loyal, humorous character, though not the best at interpersonal relationships. Teyla was living in a tent and had only just mastered fire, she is slowly intigrated into contemporary society.

You seem to be comparing the SGA cast to the ST cast by either millitary position or job, you say nothing about their actual characters. fair enough, i never really liked ST, (except for Voyager) but of what little i have seen, Sheppard is nothing like Riker, Ronans only resemblance to Worf is that he's gruff...and Cam Mitchell is in no way shape or form trying to be O'Niell

Lobelia Overhill

(Haven't read all of thread yet, just had to reply to this post!)

i-bloodhound wrote: »

I thought the episode stunk and turned it off before the end.

Oh thank you so much - I finally found someone who agrees with me that Whispers was bile!!

I was told that it was creepy and disturbing, I was neither creeped, nor disturbed by it, I was however disappointed to see a re-hash of Vengeance, (chasing monsters in catacombs/tunnels) and Instinct (villagers frightened of a monster in the woods). This seems to have been the "main problem" (IMO) during Seasons 4 and 5, re-using old stories from previous seasons of SGA and SG-1.

Seasons 1, 2 and 3 were fine, great even. It was funny, exciting, the sets were amazing and the cast were likable guys and gals who you'd buy a pint for in any pub, the Wraith were scary (in an "I'm glad they ain't real" way), and the concept of the series was fine, group of people from Earth find the Lost City of Atlantis, chaos ensues.

Lt Ford was an annoying OTT "kid" and he was removed from the cast with an option to return as "super Ford" with his Wraith enhancements but someone decided he wasn't coming back again ...

Ronon replaced him and initially seemed to be an interesting character, he's from one of the most technologically advanced civilisations in Pegasus (he must have been, the Wraith destroyed the planet, something they only do to planets with advanced civilisations) and he'd been made a Runner. Somewhere during Seasons 4 and 5 he turned into a knuckle dragging Neaderthal from planet Braveheart. Remember Perna telling Carson (in Poisoning The Well that a man had come to Hoff many generations ago who was found to have a protein that was toxic to the Wraith, and they'd spend the intervening years trying to perfect a 'vaccine' from that protein? Remember in Runner how we saw [in flashback] and heard Ronon say a Wraith tried to feed on him and stopped ... was there a conection between these two things? Apparently not ...

Elizabeth Weir was (IMO) a perfectly acceptable leader of the expedition but suffered from the "curse of the Stargate writers" (ie she's a civilian woman) and they apparently ran out of ideas for her, so they killed her off after trying to turn her into something else.

I dunno what the point of killing off Carson was, but (IMO) the way it was handled off-set was disgraceful, the fans got up in arms, but instead of a simple "it's part of an ongoing story arc and Beckett will return" fans were [from what I can tell] encouraged to fill out petitions, and get themselves on the evening news in a bid to get Carson brought back. Uh yeah, you were planning on bringing him back anyways - the clues are there in Vengeance and a few S4 episodes (I forget which ones, but the one where there's a plague which turns out to be the Hoffan 'vaccine'), there was only one way Micheal could have gotten that information.

Teyla's pregnancy was a waste of space, done to cover up Rachel Luttrel's real life pregnancy, things started to look interesting when the Wraith Queen in whatever that episode was (I've blanked the titles of Seasons 4 and 5 from my memory) said that Teyla's baby was "helping" her, then it turned out the baby was 'normal', and subsequently went away for a while until he could be used as a plot device ... And why did she call him Torren, didn't she introduce herself as the daughter to Tegan? Who's Tegan then?

Rodney was always great, David Hewlitt really showed his acting chops on several occassions, and Rodney did develop, if you watch the epsiodes of SG-1 that he was in you'll see a difference! I think I'll miss him most of all,

Sheppard was ... well I'm not sure what to make of him. He knew nothing about the Stargate Program until the pilot of SGA, but thereafter he seemed to be a font of information on all things 'Gate related, and he handled the most oddball situations will nary a "OMG WTF?!?". Still I liked him.

Zelenka, Lorne and Col Caldwell were excellent additions to the cast, albeit sadly underused.

Carter's stint on Atlantis was (IMO) a waste of space, and ruined the character we'd grown to love over 10 years on SG-1. I still can't figure out what 'excuse' they used for removing her from SG-1 (who were, after all, still saving the Milky Way, just not every week on Sky One), and sending her to Atlantis as the Earth's formost expert on the Ancients (or words to that effect) um, I was under the impression she was our formost expert on Gate operations, wormhole physics and blowing up suns ... as well as a sideline in Where To Keep Your Reproducive Ograns

Woolsey was supposed to be the annoying Bureaucrat who got on everyone's nerves, so why bring him to Atlantis?

And what the feck happened to the Wraith?! They went from scary bastards to helpful fellas willing to co-operate with the humans ...

I've noticed an awful lot of people (cast and crew) seem to have abandoned ship since the end of S3 ... seems like they had the right idea. I've gotten rid of my S4 boxed set and have taken S5 off my pre-order list.

I'm sad that the show is ending, but I'm not sorry that they can't ruin it any further than they already had.