my best in Dun laoghaire

thebaz

Maybe it is apt being a local , and what with all the fuss regarding the commersialised FWC happening this weekend -- that in a half an hour in very basic conditions I shot what I believe to be my best , for what i do this is as good as i can go -- alcohol , frienship, pain, wonderfull photogenic children-- maybe its time to retire from this part time unpaid obsession

Full set on
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebaz/
(for full impact check out the set of 9 ) - 3 samples below

AnCatDubh

Hey Barry - I commented on you pix.ie photo but i'll say the same here - i think the third one (kids) is superb. Not sure what others will think but the angle leading to the perspective chosen is really good. And nice to see a little colour from you too!

sasar

Well, I have to say all three shots above are just superb. You have really managed to capture the emotions and the atmosphere.

0utpost31

The first one is just an out of focus face of a man. You could do that with your eyes closed! What emotions and atmosphere have you caught? Maybe somebody can explain what I'm missing?

PaulieC

I'm afraid I agree with Outpost31. It's just 3 snapshots of poor people, big deal...You've done far better thah this Baz...

sasar

It is not always all about the quality.

gandalf

I actually like these, especially the first one. It captures a raw emotion and a sadness in the mans eyes.

I like the fact Barry captures scenes and people that most of us would walk on by to. He is a brave photographer and has the ability to capture a certain rawness that is disturbing at times but will always give you something to think about. Most of his captures have far more value from my perspective than the most beautiful landscape photos because they are about the human condition.

0utpost31

sasar wrote: »

It is not always all about the quality.

Did I say there was a quality issue here? The subject isn't great - it's just a man I said.

Then what do you think the first photo is about?

sasar

''The first one is just an out of focus face of a man. You could do that with your eyes closed!'' - this is clearly pointing out the quality aspect.

It is not a landscape shot where quality is so much more important.
As I said - emotions and atmosphere.

0utpost31

OK sasar I might have mentioned that it was out of focus but I also mentioned the subject.

So what do you like about the photo?

As I said - emotions and atmosphere.

Could you elaborate a teeny bit... What atmosphere? It's a guy in a kitchen! How is that atmospheric? He's probably drinking a cup of tea and eating a biscuit.

And also, the pic of the kids is like a holiday snapshot.

Baz I looked through your flickr, you have photos that are 100 times better than these.

sasar

I hope you do not think that only posed shots in a studio can be atmospheric? Even a quick snapshon in the kitchen can give the right mood to the photo.

When I just started photographing, I mostly worked on landscapes/seascapes, but then I discovered, that nothing really gives me as much satisfaction as photographing people in their environment, unposed and natural.

0utpost31

sasar wrote: »

I hope you do not think that only posed shots in a studio can be atmospheric? Even a quick snapshot in the kitchen can give the right mood to the photo..

Wow you read my mind! That's exactly what I think. It's the only way you can capture atmosphere. (this is a perfect moment for the "rolleyes" icon, but I hate it so am not going to use it.)

And yes, a snapshot in a kitchen can be atmospheric, but not this one.

sasar wrote: »

nothing really gives me as much satisfaction as photographing people in their environment, unposed and natural.

I know exactly what you mean. That's why I love the national geographic so much - The people! But come on, you still haven't told me what you like about these photos and this is my third time asking. What sense of "this that and the other" do you get?:rolleyes::pac:

sturgo

Baz I took a look at your Flickr. Some amazing stuff there. These ones are pale in comparison. To me they're just some average shots of some very unfortunate poor sad looking people. I don't get any patricular feeling, emotion or atmosphere here. No story. No depth. And what they have got to do with the FWC I don't know.

0utpost31

These people don't look sad!! There's a smile in every photo! Yer all nuts! And how can you tell they are unfortunate?!! The guy on the right in the second pic looks like my uncle!!! And the girl in the orange looks like my cousin!

sasar

Maybe people in first 2 photos do not look sad, but it makes me sad looking at them.

If I was a poet, it would be a lot easier to express my feelings about these photos.

0utpost31

Why does it make you sad? Do you know them? I'm not from dun laoghaire now so I think I might be missing something. And sasar, I'm looking through your flickr now, you're no fool. Some absolutely amazing photos there. I just find i hard to comprehend that somebody with such photographic skill can get so much out of a regular snapshot such as photo #1 up there.

Still though. No amount of backstory can make up for below average photos, unless you were writing an article on these people and had the photos thrown in on the side of the page. As standalone photos, nothing special.

And baz, you say these are your best??!! Baaz!

thebaz

0utpost31 wrote: »

The first one is just an out of focus face of a man. You could do that with your eyes closed! What emotions and atmosphere have you caught? Maybe somebody can explain what I'm missing?

youv'e missed the point , so they are not for you -- but for me they are my best -- if you can't see past a blurred image so be it -- i will continue photographing Dublin for one more year , but maybe posting here isn't appropriate

gandalf

thebaz wrote: »

youv'e missed the point , so they are not for you -- but for me they are my best -- if you can't see past a blurred image so be it -- i will continue photographing Dublin for one more year , but maybe posting here isn't appropriate

Nonsense baz, you are always welcome to post here.

Because some people don't like what you have taken is understandable. Its different horses for difference courses. You should always take photos for yourself not for what you think the herd want to see.

This forum would be a poorer place without your contribution and I look forward to your next batch of captures.

sasar

You don't necessarily need to know the people in the photo, to make you sad.

Last year, when I just bought my first camera, all I looked at was quality, but now I have realised that it is not a necessity for all photos. I like the first one, I really do, there is something more to it.

For me it's a lot easier to explain what I do not like in the photo, than explaining what I like.

gandalf

0utpost31 wrote: »

Why does it make you sad? Do you know them? I'm not from dun laoghaire now so I think I might be missing something. And sasar, I'm looking through your flickr now, you're no fool. Some absolutely amazing photos there. I just find i hard to comprehend that somebody with such photographic skill can get so much out of a regular snapshot such as photo #1 up there.

Yes but that is just your opinion. As sasar said there is more to a good capture than technique alone. I too find myself drawn to the first photo, for me it does have something. But thats my opinion. Personally I hate macro shots for example, I appreciate that they can look pretty but they do nothing for me other than that. For others that post here they are the ultimate photos.

Still though. No amount of backstory can make up for below average photos, unless you were writing an article on these people and had the photos thrown in on the side of the page. As standalone photos, nothing special.

Again thats just your opinion. These photos speak more to me than the best Landscapes and I would include Ansell Adams with this as well. I prefer to see the human condition captured in time and these are the type of shots that do this.

And baz, you say these are your best??!! Baaz!

Really is this comment necessary? You have expressed your dislike of the photos, personally and from a mod perspective I think you are goading the OP with this comment.

Maybe next time hold off posting a concluding statement like this to your comments.

thebaz

gandalf wrote: »

This forum would be a poorer place without your contribution and I look forward to your next batch of captures.

thanks Gandalf , and i've got amazing help and learned so much here , but sometimes when stuff is misinterpreted so badly , i wonder is an internet forum the right place -- i'll alway come back here for knowledge etc. -- but when the stuff is kind of personal -- it makes me wonder -- there many good people here - reflection

b

gandalf

thebaz wrote: »

thanks Gandalf , and i've got amazing help and learned so much here , but sometimes when stuff is misinterpreted so badly , i wonder is an internet forum the right place -- i'll alway come back here for knowledge etc. -- but when the stuff is kind of personal -- it makes me wonder -- there many good people here - reflection

b

Look man there will always be people who don't like what you capture. No matter who you are and what you are capturing. What I learnt ages ago is to do it for yourself. Now that can be a double edged sword as for example I am my own worst critic and I have hated most of my captures from this year so far. But we keep capturing eh

Shivverz

Its a photo of a pair of Junkies and two little toe-rags!!! Anyone could do this! LMAO, Lock this thread.

gandalf

Shivverz wrote: »

Its a photo of a pair of Junkies and two little toe-rags!!! Anyone could do this! LMAO, Lock this thread.

Shivverz banned for a month from the forum for that trolling comment.

If I see any responses to any threads on this forum like that again they will meet with a similar faith.

This is the new regime.

0utpost31

Gandalf, I know all of that is just my opinion, you don't have to tell me over and over at no point did I mention that it was the word of god cast in stone.

This is just C&C, that's all it is. And if baz can't take it then maybe his comments about wether he's posting in the right place are justified.

I love nice comments made about my photos, but I would also love some negative comments too. I would embrace them and ask questions back.

And baz, are you going to elaborate on what "point" I and possibly 90% of the 300+ viewers of this thread missed?

0utpost31

gandalf wrote: »

Shivverz banned for a month from the forum for that trolling comment.

If I see any responses to any threads on this forum like that again they will meet with a similar faith.

This is the new regime.

Ah... you ah... master Gandalf.... you meant fate didn't you? Master?

gandalf

0utpost31 wrote: »

Gandalf, I know all of that is just my opinion, you don't have to tell me over and over at no point did I mention that it was the word of god cast in stone.

At no time did I say that yours was the word of god

This is just C&C, that's all it is. And if baz can't take it then maybe his comments about wether he's posting in the right place are justified.

True enough I am sure Baz loves have constructive criticism of his work, not sure he is getting it here though.

I love nice comments made about my photos, but I would also love some negative comments too. I would embrace them and ask questions back.

Oh god I prefer people to give me constructive criticism nearly all of the time (nearly that is )

And baz, are you going to elaborate on what "point" I and possibly 90% of the 300+ viewers of this thread missed?

Not sure where you get the 90% of viewers comment there? Statistics eh!

AnimalRights

I'm a massive fan of Barry's stuff but #1 and #2 are very poor
#3 is so so.

gandalf

0utpost31 wrote: »

Ah... you ah... master Gandalf.... you meant fate didn't you? Master?

I hope you aren't making a criticism of the moderation here? Being a smart ass and questioning someones spelling errors is frowned upon as well. Next time I suggest you fight the urge to hit submit.

AnimalRights

gandalf wrote: »

I like the fact Barry captures scenes and people that most of us would walk on by to. He is a brave photographer and has the ability to capture a certain rawness that is disturbing at times but will always give you something to think about. Most of his captures have far more value from my perspective than the most beautiful landscape photos because they are about the human condition.

I do agree with this but it looks like he got lazy this time, they are nothing diff or new to what he's already upped.
I mean because the guy look's like a wino does that make it a better picture than a normal person his age?
He raised the bar a fair while back and he has set his own standard, I just find these kinda lazy.

sturgo

gandalf wrote: »

True enough I am sure Baz loves have constructive criticism of his work, not sure he is getting it here though.

Gandalf, I think most of the comments here have been fair. Maybe not easy to take for Baz but most have been fair.

I don't expect everyone to like my photos and I don't always like being critisized but it's absolutely essential for me to develop a better understanding of my work.

I don't particularly like the photos in question and I gave my reasons why. This forum should under no circumstances be all about praise.

gandalf

AnimalRights wrote: »

I do agree with this but it looks like he got lazy this time, they are nothing diff or new to what he's already upped.
I mean because the guy look's like a wino does that make it a better picture than a normal person his age?
He raised the bar a fair while back and he has set his own standard, I just find these kinda lazy.

I like these shots but I agree with you these are not the best shots that he has taken.

AnimalRights

thebaz wrote: »

youv'e missed the point , so they are not for you -- but for me they are my best -- if you can't see past a blurred image so be it -- i will continue photographing Dublin for one more year , but maybe posting here isn't appropriate

Jeez, we give you plaudits when they're great, you got to learn to rock n roll with the bad.
I was absolutely slated by City Exile for my 1st Cricket set but that made me more determined rather than throw my rattle out the pram!

Covey

My comment is purely on the thread so far, as I can't see the photos at work as Flickr is blocked.

The comments all seem grand to me, whether you agree with them or not, and should provide debate rather than rebuke.

It's the reason I rarely comment on photos here as C&C appears to upset so many people.

gandalf

sturgo wrote: »

Gandalf, I think most of the comments here have been fair. Maybe not easy to take for Baz but most have been fair.

I don't expect everyone to like my photos and I don't always like being critisized but it's absolutely essential for me to develop a better understanding of my work.

I don't particularly like the photos in question and I gave my reasons why. This forum should under no circumstances be all about praise.

Actually your comments I would class as constructive because you make an effort to expand on them.

Here are 2 comments off the first page. One of the commenter's does in a later post to elaborate further on why he feels this way but I am sure you will agree these are not constructive at all.

"The first one is just an out of focus face of a man. You could do that with your eyes closed!"

"It's just 3 snapshots of poor people, big deal"

sturgo

Covey wrote: »

It's the reason I rarely comment on photos here as C&C appears to upset so many people.

Please Covey don't let that stop you. If people can't handle constructive comments that's entirely their problem. They should be thankful that you've taken the time to say anything at all.

dakar

I don't usually comment on baz's work.

I'm not sure if this is because it unsettles me a bit (and I think this is because I'm lucky enough to live a life removed from the difficulties most of his subjects endure) or if I just don't feel qualified to and that any comments I make might seem trite.

I'm not sure if it was put up for C&C per se, it seems from baz's initial comments that these shots have struck a very deep chord for him and because we weren't there, how can we understand it from looking at 3 isolated photos?

That being said, I think #1 is lost out of context and makes more sense alongside the others in the flickr set. Together they present what appears to me to be a more comprehensive document of this man's life. On it's own, it comes across as a blurry snapshot.

I love the fact that somebody cares enough to take these photos. I love the fact that somebody cares enough to get pissed off when they don't get the reception he feels the images (or possibly the subjects) deserve. I have to agree with some of the negative stuff from a strictly nitpicky technical photographic point of view, but I hope baz keeps doing what he does and keeps posting here.

Love #3 btw:)

thebaz

AnimalRights wrote: »

Jeez, we give you plaudits when they're great, you got to learn to rock n roll with the bad.
I was absolutely slated by City Exile for my 1st Cricket set but that made me more determined rather than throw my rattle out the pram!

Sasar says the shots are superb , who is one of the finest or best photographers here , and i personally find No. 1 one of my best ever , so there is something in the shot , that some don't get - maybe its better to get a reaction negative or positive , than no reaction .

I know well many don't like my stuff , but something i like i will defend against being called a snap , especially if i feal it is some of my best work --however bad that may be to some

and i did say view the set as a whole

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebaz/
(for full impact check out the set of 9 ) - 3 samples below

Deliverance XXV

Bottom line: Everyone's different with different tastes.

Personally, my favourites in the set and in my opinion you should have used these together with #3 to showcase the set are...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebaz/2785814643/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebaz/2785847599/

AnimalRights

thebaz wrote: »

I know well many don't like my stuff , but something i like i will defend against being called a snap ,

How many times have I told you I love your stuff!!!! Lots!

AnimalRights wrote: »

I'll say this again Barry I'm def a fan of your style of photography, street/portrait.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56730927&postcount=5

AnimalRights wrote: »

Great photos all the same, good too see you using colour.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56475401&postcount=2

I never called it a snap either.

Because I'm a huge fan of your work it doesn't mean there will be times when I don't rate some of it.

I like Sasar's work also but even he can have off days c&c'ing.


Will check the whole album now though.



/edit
They do indeed work better as a set, next time throw them all up.
Still not mad on the original 3 though, reason why you got slated was you've set very high standards in this particular field.....

I like the 1st pic in the flickr set best btw with the 2 girls in B&W and on a level eye position.

Calina

I have the following comments to make.

thebaz has an interesting project going with the types of photographs he takes. Some people get it and some people do not. This is the way of things.

Some of the comments in this thread have, to my mind, been less than constructive. This is regrettable. I think it's a pity because to my mind, the photographs are utterly fascinating on several levels. No one I know would ever allow me to take any of them - because in some respects they are utterly raw. While technically you could say the top one lacks a little on the depth of field front. Shot 3 is excellent to my mind. It's also timeless...I am not sure it would be easily dated in 20 years time. And I'd like to remind people that this is not my style of photography and not something I have any concept of ever being able to shoot. What disappoints me about 1 and 2 is that I feel the bnw conversion lacks contrast, 1 in particular.

__________________________________

On the wider subject of C&C - I'm going to remind people that when you are providing critique, regardless of how negative it may be, it is possible to write it in constructive terms, and not wholly negative terms. A good deal of context is missing in a typed discussion; please remember this.

I understand Covey's position on C&C and would like to remind people that at this point in type the charter does contain a line reminding you that if you cannot handle negative criticism you should not necessarily provide images for C&C.

AnimalRights

Calina wrote: »

thebaz has an interesting project going with the types of photographs he takes. Some people get it and some people do not. This is the way of things.

Aaahhh I get it now, when someone doesn't like a particular thing they don't get it.
Bertie prob says that about Alan Mahon every night.

thebaz

sure we'll agree to disagree , and Animal most of my comments wern't directed at you , just a bit shocked to get such a reaction to stuff i thought good.
Its the dark eyes in image one that i find harrowing , and in image 2 its the same character in the bottom left that makes them work for me -- sure no one thought van Gough was any good , he died with about as much money as i have

Dundhoone

You frightened some folks when you mentioned "retiring" and "as good as I can go" considering that you have posted many exceptional images in the past and will continue to do so hopefully.

You may not have conveyed your experience to everyone in these images. Technically i think three is the best , one conveys something but it needs a background story.

mobileblog

Baz’s work is his own. (The King is Alive)
Every photo he takes contains effort, more effort than the majority of photos on here, I personally dont know him, i’m judging this on this flickr and post’s to this forum.

Every photo tells a story. To myself it tells a story of Ireland. The ireland of the past, which is present today. Every day were feed images of the rich ireland, morning catwalk shows, make up tips and shoes, coffee drinking fine dining etc talking dreamful of the future. This whole city life (in which i cant get my head around - we’re not NY or London, ok it may be as expensive but it takes time to develop a city, give it 10 more years then i’ll reconsider) (sorry for the rant there, i could go on)

I believe that Baz has to build some form of trust before he take these pics (asking for rights etc) this take’s time, it may be candid, in some form but not all.
Personally if Baz added the other pics of image 1 they would work better i think. The movement of his subject to the unveiling of the vest and chest is magic.

But he has spent time with the man in the first picture, ( none of us have, and dare i say it but “A picture is worth a thousand words”) and it’s evident in this situation.


It’s photography, look at the bigger picture.

Buzz Lightyear

Barry whilst I love your work, I'll have to agree with the majority of the posters here and say that they are not your best. I certantly wouldn't rubish them with the snapshot remark, because they hold a feeling for the context that they are taken in.

Image #1 for me talks of a man at about 11.30 in the morning after having a couple down the local, back up for a bite. He looks happy (although not smiling) from the alcohol. The simple sourroundings speak of his background. IMO the blurring taks on a life of it's own giving the feeling of sway, trying to steady himself from the drink. Well captured - but not your best.

Image #2 lacks contrast. The background is over exposed taking away from the subject. A bit more PP would do this shot more justice. It does however portray a sense of comradery amongst an impoverished family, whilst the wife is full in the knowledge that she is suffering from years of drink and (I hope I'm wrong) beatings. She might be the home maker but himself has the final say.

Image #3 whist it is a beautiful image and well caputured of two little girls trapped behind their background and enviroment, does nothing for me. Then again being able to see the story behind the image has told me about the girls, more than words could say. But I do not consider this to be one of your best.

As for the rest of today's commentry, I feel Barry that you should be able to take C&C. I know personally I haven't put to too much mainly from lack of time to develop & PP. But if your going to post you have to be able to take the good with the bad. A lot of people enjoy your work here and get great enjoyment seeing life through your eyes. You have a great talent 90% of the time. Feck sake even God / Mohamed / Budah feck up some times .......... & we're human !!

Dodgykeeper

The first image appears to be gone?

PaulieC

OK, I've thought about this since Friday. I was going to reply then but I thought it would be too hasty so have given myself some more time to think about it.
Baz, you posted up 3 images that you said you felt were your best ever and got some negative reastion to them (well a lot). Most of that reaction was of the 'these aren't your best, you've done a lot better in the past' type of feedback, which, in my opinion is OK. It's a lot better than saying all your work is sub-standard surely.

What annoyed the hell out of me was your reaction. Firstly, I find it insulting to be basically told that I don't understand something just because I said I didn't like it. I think that I (and most people on this board) are mature and qualified enough to look at a photo and decide whether or not we like it without our opinions being dismissed just because we don't agree with you.

Secondly, I didn't like your reaction. Threatening not to post up here anymore, give up photography etc. etc. and all the 'misunderstood artist' schtick doesn't wash, neither does comparing yourself with a certain Dutch artist (even if tongue-in-cheek). You were on another thread only last week complaining about inflated egos in the music business, so you shouldn't really start down that road yourself.

The reason this has all annoyed me so much is because it's not that long ago you started and had a lot more humility about what you were doing. You have got a lot of praise and accolades in the meantime, deservedly so, but don't let it go to your head...

AnimalRights

There appears to have been pruning in this thread! :eek:
To be fair to Baz he didn't say all what you have accused him of cambo_gueno, it was a few others....
Also I am back on ur side and views simply because pic #1 has being removed, to me that is censorship at it's worst.

gandalf

Its appears that Baz has changed the photo on his flickr hence the link no longer works here.

Please try and contain your conspiracy theory tendencies and look before you leap in future :rolleyes:

Dragan

AnimalRights wrote: »

There appears to have been pruning in this thread! :eek:
To be fair to Baz he didn't say all what you have accused him of cambo_gueno, it was a few others....
Also I am back on ur side and views simply because pic #1 has being removed, to me that is censorship at it's worst.

All three pics are still in the post for me. If any images are removed from posts in future then i would advise people to check with the OP before they bust out the censorship word.

Thank you.