Segregation of Immigrant Classes

The_Philosopher

This is my first thread and I hope many people read it.

The Segregation of Immigrant Classes is probably so far one of the most disgusting and hopeless idea's i've ever heard of, and whats even more disgusting is that some "Politicians" are actually taking the idea with some seriousness. As a secondary school student I revel in the pleasure of being able to say that my school has students with origins from all over the world with different languages and cultures. The idea of initiating such a strategy revolts me, so far as a country I think we've dealt with mass immigration successfully and without very little backlash of racism.
One of the greatest things about this country is our own diversity and our willingness to challenge adversity and triumph over it. We're a country that have emmigrated all over the world and we're proud of that fact and of being able to say that " the Irish are everywhere", we should allow for other countries to say the same without adversity against it.
Integration is one of the hardest questions to answer, but I know that we can't answer it with - Segregation, of any kind.
We have to Integrate not Segregate.
Language is our only barrier, and a small one compared to others we've fought through.
Maybe i'm rambling and exaggerating but i don't won't to see in the future the Segregation of Classes is only a First Step.
(I hope this Idea flounders and fails, but if it doesn't, I want people to shout and scream their protests as loud and hard as you can).

gurramok

This is a language problem, not a race one. Teachers cannot teach Maths/Science whatever through Polish/African languages etc.
The kids need English lessons more than the Irish ones as guess what, Irish people speak English from aged 1.
This 'Segregation' has already happened in D15 with Irish parents moving kids out of school due to too much teaching time devoted to language issues. They feel that their own kids are not getting enough attention due to too much resources teaching immigrant kids English first. (http://bap.ie/dloads/intercultural_education_report.pdf )

It ain't racism and revolting, its common sense. Allocate extra hours to help the immigrant kids learn the lingo is a resource issue with the education authority.

And your view on Ireland has 'dealt with mass immigration successfully' is so wide of the mark as w've haven't even started.

Overheal

But are english fluent foreign children being discriminated against?

How is this handled in other countries?

Breezer

Overheal wrote: »

But are english fluent foreign children being discriminated against?

No. The idea is to place students who do not have a sufficient grasp of the English language into intensive English language classes until they have attained a sufficient grasp of the language so as not to be either 1) holding their classmates back while the teacher devotes extra time to them or 2) held back themselves since they haven't a clue what the teacher is saying. After this, they would move into the regular class.

I was listening to a radio report on this tonight and there were some crazy ideas being phoned in: people were suggesting that it should be up to the teacher to learn Chinese and Polish in order to be able to communicate with these students. This is ridiculous. What happens when a Russian monoglot student comes? A student who speaks only Afrikaans? Should the teacher learn every language under the sun, in order to be prepared for such an eventuality?

The languages of this country are English and Irish. I'm all for integration, but a foreign national cannot simply turn up here and expect everyone they meet to speak their language to them, just as I cannot go to a non-English speaking country and expect everyone to speak English (the fact that many in the services industry do is irrelevant). The best way for them to integrate into this country is to learn to communicate with the people of this country.

I admire Brian Hayes for having the courage to come out and say this. He's going to have to face some backlash and accusations of racism for it. And it will never become Government policy because the current lot are too spineless to implement something like this.

Interesting to note that the ASTI, the group representing the teachers who have to deal on a daily basis with students who can't speak basic English, has come out in support of this proposal, although it has cautioned on the use of the term 'segregation,' which I agree is a poor choice of words and not what this policy is truly about. If anything it is about speedier and more effective integration.

Deleted User wrote: »

How is this handled in other countries?

I know that Belgium has international schools where students are taught in their native languages. However, the situation is somewhat different there as there are large numbers of children of EU officials living there for short periods of time. The idea is to keep up their education as before, rather than integrate them into Belgian society.

Overheal

well im satisfied. i mean how much integration can you otherwise have between a mandarin speaking child and an english speaking child? You cant. Not until they find some middle ground. I dont have an issue with the scheme.

MIN2511

I agree with segregation of children who cant speak English. I would hope that it would be applied to extreme cases and not just seperation because of the childs origins.

A-Train

I would welcome it, while some of the wording wasn't great at least it would try to deal with issues that are arising in classrooms that people don't seem to want to discuss.

wasper

The_Philosopher wrote: »

This is my first thread and I hope many people read it.

The Segregation of Immigrant Classes is probably so far one of the most disgusting and hopeless idea's i've ever heard of, and whats even more disgusting is that some "Politicians" are actually taking the idea with some seriousness. As a secondary school student I revel in the pleasure of being able to say that my school has students with origins from all over the world with different languages and cultures. The idea of initiating such a strategy revolts me, so far as a country I think we've dealt with mass immigration successfully and without very little backlash of racism.
One of the greatest things about this country is our own diversity and our willingness to challenge adversity and triumph over it. We're a country that have emmigrated all over the world and we're proud of that fact and of being able to say that " the Irish are everywhere", we should allow for other countries to say the same without adversity against it.
Integration is one of the hardest questions to answer, but I know that we can't answer it with - Segregation, of any kind.
We have to Integrate not Segregate.
Language is our only barrier, and a small one compared to others we've fought through.
Maybe i'm rambling and exaggerating but i don't won't to see in the future the Segregation of Classes is only a First Step.
(I hope this Idea flounders and fails, but if it doesn't, I want people to shout and scream their protests as loud and hard as you can).

Ditto.

irish_bob

brian hayes will be backed by the public for this idea , he can however expect a backlash from fianna fail playing party politics and of course the chattering classes

Breezer

irish_bob wrote: »

brian hayes will be backed by the public for this idea , he can however expect a backlash from fianna fail playing party politics and of course the chattering classes

Listening to the radio show (not the best place to gauge public opinion, but this particular one usually tries to get views from both sides) it seemed to be students themselves who were backing it, and foreign people and Joe Publics on the street opposing it.

Kama

Kids without knowledge of the language of the host country will be de facto segregated. Acquiring the primary language of the country seems an indispensible step toward integration, arguing against that seems to trend, ironically enough, toward segregation on multiculti lines.

You don't lose your culture by learning a foreign language...if anything you can appreciate it more. Viewing this through a racial/cultural lens seems misguided, its a practical issue on maintaining a functional education system.

wasper

Kama wrote: »

Kids without knowledge of the language of the host country will be de facto segregated. Acquiring the primary language of the country seems an indispensible step toward integration, arguing against that seems to trend, ironically enough, toward segregation on multiculti lines.

You don't lose your culture by learning a foreign language...if anything you can appreciate it more. Viewing this through a racial/cultural lens seems misguided, its a practical issue on maintaining a functional education system.

But I knew an Iraqi family that arrived here in 90s & their boy was 9 years old at the time. He was enrolled in a school & the year after he was top of the class in Irish!

sink

I would agree with dividing classes for most classroom subjects such as maths & geography. But there are subjects that don't require much language skills such as art and p.e. Those subjects should be fully integrated so as all the children will socialise with each other for at least part of the day.

Breezer

wasper wrote: »

But I knew an Iraqi family that arrived here in 90s & their boy was 9 years old at the time. He was enrolled in a school & the year after he was top of the class in Irish!

More power to him. In that case he would have absolutely no trouble with an intensive English language course and would be moved into the regular class in no time.

djpbarry

Considering the high levels of functional illiteracy among adults in this country, should the focus for language support be solely on non-Irish kids? There were certainly a number of Irish people in my year in secondary school that could have done with some additional English tuition.

The_Minister

A-Train wrote: »

I would welcome it, while some of the wording wasn't great at least it would try to deal with issues that are arising in classrooms that people don't seem to want to discuss.

They used the word segregation on purpose to get attention for the policy.

The idea is that everyone hears "segregating immegrants" and goes nuts.
Then they get the policy explained to them.
They think it makes sense.
They want to defend Fine Gael against their mostly made-up attackers.
They vote Fine Gael.

Breezer

The_Minister wrote: »

They used the word segregation on purpose to get attention for the policy.

The idea is that everyone hears "segregating immegrants" and goes nuts.
Then they get the policy explained to them.
They think it makes sense.
They want to defend Fine Gael against their mostly made-up attackers.
They vote Fine Gael.

That's a dangerous game, it's very easy for a lot of people who only listen to the tabloids to get the wrong idea and for the whole thing to go pear-shaped.

Anyway, people criticise Fine Gael for having no policies and then when they come out with a policy and make sure everyone hears about it, you complain. While a bit of sensationalism may have been involved, the alternative is for an Opposition party to talk about its ideas quietly and then they either disappear or a Government party comes along and introduces it as "their" policy. Very few people are any the wiser because they never heard of the policy in the first place.

You didn't mention whether you think the policy makes sense or not?

nhughes100

In fairness to Brian Hayes I don't think total segregation was what he was aiming for. I think he was adopting an approach similar to students who need remedial attention. Like stay on for an hour after the normal school day has finished to do English. This is a vital part of the integration setup if it is to work out. I have to say I admire Hayes for raising a potentially controversial issue and not fudging it like Conor Lenihan did with the dresscode issue.

This has to dealt with maturely and not by the PC brigade, if you plan on living in a country on a long term basis you have speak the language to a reasonable degree. This is common sense really.

Kama

That sounds like a level of strategic planning in three-moves-ahead fashion that I'm not convinced Fine Gael were capable of; if you got inside info i cede the point...

Not sure enough people would get from Step One: Hear About Segregation to Step 2, let alone an further...

nhughes100

Don't have any inside information but Brian Hayes used to be a TD for where I was living and my impression of the man is that he is a common sense politician. FG actually have some talent on the front bench, one wonders when they'll realise the Enda Kenny is not the man to lead the opposition.

A-Train

The_Minister wrote: »

They used the word segregation on purpose to get attention for the policy.

The idea is that everyone hears "segregating immegrants" and goes nuts.
Then they get the policy explained to them.
They think it makes sense.
They want to defend Fine Gael against their mostly made-up attackers.
They vote Fine Gael.

Yes while I agree with you that the wording was chosen for effect I would find it hard to believe that they were trying to put a masterplan into action.

But maybe they are and are trying to show they can actually come up with there own ideas and plans. Good for them.

Hobbes

Kama wrote: »

Kids without knowledge of the language of the host country will be de facto segregated.

You can get free English lessons if it is not your first language. There are many nationalities here with dual languages who teach English to those who need to learn it.

Some links
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/adult-and-life-long-education/adult_literacy/
http://www.nala.ie/nalaprojects/project/20011109125454.html
http://www.iilt.ie/home/default.asp?NCID=1 (closed but material available)


But I am confused what the OP is going on about? Is there segregation taking place? He hasn't pointed to it at all.

if you plan on living in a country on a long term basis you have speak the language to a reasonable degree.

You will be surprised how many ex-pats can live in a country without having to learn the language. If anything the kids pick up the languages easier.

Breezer

Hobbes wrote: »

You can get free English lessons if it is not your first language. There are many nationalities here with dual languages who teach English to those who need to learn it.

That's all well and good, but unless it is enforced there are those who will not learn it. My mother is currently attempting to teach several of them.

But I am confused what the OP is going on about? Is there segregation taking place? He hasn't pointed to it at all.

It's a proposal by Brian Hayes of Fine Gael. It won't happen while Fianna Fáil are in Government.

You will be surprised how many ex-pats can live in a country without having to learn the language.

They can live there. How well do they integrate into society and communicate with those around them? How well can they contribute to the workforce and society in general? Nothing wrong with keeping your own culture and educating us about it, a multicultural society is a fantastic learning opportunity, but if you're living here long term you should be able to speak either English or Irish. Just as if I went to France to live, I would be expected to learn to speak French.

If anything the kids pick up the languages easier.

True. Which is why they would have no trouble with intensive language teaching and within a short period of time would be able to integrate into the regular class.

Overheal

Same story in Uber-Tolerant san fran too: Governor Arnie was starting to tell the Mexican population a few months ago if you want to become integrated: LEARN ENGLISH. Otherwise feck off and stay in the Spanish Quarter. But of course many mexican citizens are bilingual so thats not who he's targeting there.

djpbarry

Breezer wrote: »

That's all well and good, but unless it is enforced there are those who will not learn it.

I can't imagine there would be all that many who would need forcing. As you say yourself:

Breezer wrote: »

How well do they integrate into society and communicate with those around them? How well can they contribute to the workforce and society in general?

If someone moves to Ireland and doesn't learn English, they're not going to get very far - I would imagine that is sufficient incentive for the vast majority of immigrants.

Breezer wrote: »

Nothing wrong with keeping your own culture and educating us about it, a multicultural society is a fantastic learning opportunity, but if you're living here long term you should be able to speak either English or Irish.

Not much point having Irish if you can't speak English.

Boggle

Brian Hayes was on the last word yesterday and he said that he was talking specifically about secondary schools as they are highly exam driven - a fair enough approach in many ways.

Personally speaking, our family moved to Belgium when I went into 5th class and I was enrolled in a flemish school. While it was difficult at the time, the class basically worked ahead on most subjects initially while I was taught basic dutch and I was gradually introduced into all subjects as my dutch got better. Note that the class didn't stop specifically for me but this just forced me to learn quicker.
By fifth class my dutch was good enough to learn french through dutch even so it was no big deal.

In secondary school, I got zero extra attention as I didn't need it.

---

While thats fine in primary, for a student to be given a fair crack at exams, there is some sense in having summer or (similar to transition year)gap year programs to allow the students to come to grips with our language and our curriculum. May prove expensive but worth it cos even when I returned to Ireland in second year I had already missed the entire first year so I basically sat my junior cert based on 2 out of 3 years material (again not really a problem cos some subject are thought much better abroad - like maths and french).

djpbarry

Boggle wrote: »

...some subject are thought much better abroad - like maths and french).

But obviously not English .

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Overheal

ban him he's not allowed to post with us!

Breezer

djpbarry wrote: »

I can't imagine there would be all that many who would need forcing.

There's enough to make my mother's professional life fairly difficult at the moment. Admittedly that's at 3rd level. The support of the ASTI for such a measure is indicative of there being a need for it.

Not much point having Irish if you can't speak English.

In practical terms, no. However, theoretically, one can get by in this country speaking only Irish. I'd imagine that the percentage of immigrants choosing to learn Irish over English would go on for many, many zeroes after a decimal point.

Boggle

But obviously not English .

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

djpbarry

Breezer wrote: »

There's enough to make my mother's professional life fairly difficult at the moment. Admittedly that's at 3rd level.

Not sure what you mean?


Decent comment on the subject in today's Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0822/1219331408154.html

InFront

Breezer wrote: »

That's all well and good, but unless it is enforced there are those who will not learn it.

Do you really think there are fix, six, nine and ten year old kids... who come here and won't learn English? Kids pick up languages like they pick up dog crap - with a disconcerting ease.

Breezer wrote: »

but if you're living here long term you should be able to speak either English or Irish.

I'm pretty sure Urdu is more widely spoken as a day to day language here than Irish to be honest... certainly the pan-Slav languages are!
Anyway of course people who live here ought to be able to speak English. I know a lot of people who have moved here from Asia from the last 25 years right down to last month, and I don't know any who can't speak any English.

Of course for any kid to engage in the educational system in this country, to not speak the language is a handicap. Can that even be realistically contradicted?
I agree with a policy of giving kids with bad English a crash course in the language. Whether they originate from Ireland or elsewhere is hardly relevant. It should perhaps also help kids who suffer from dyslexia, perhaps, since resources appear to be so tight at that level in the system.

But perhaps it would be more expedient to offer this crash course outside of class-time and not when these kids ought to be studying maths or some other academic activity, so that they will not get left behind.

I certainly don't agree with a policy f 9am-3pm segregation... are there any schools in the country who can still afford to be so generous with their space?!

Breezer

djpbarry wrote: »

Not sure what you mean?

An anecdote from personal experience to demonstrate that this is indeed a problem. My mother, as a college lecturer, has trouble teaching business to foreign students who can barely speak English. I qualified this statement by highlighting that I was referring to 3rd level, whereas this policy is aimed at secondary school students.

Decent comment on the subject in today's Times:

A very good comment. I agree with pretty much all of it. I already said that 'segregation' was a poor choice of words. Hopefully, for once, we can get over it and discuss the real issue. I won't hold my breath though.

InFront wrote:

Do you really think there are fix, six, nine and ten year old kids... who come here and won't learn English? Kids pick up languages like they pick up dog crap - with a disconcerting ease.

The policy refers to secondary school students. There are those who come here who are more interested in making more money than they can at home by working minimum wage jobs than they are in fulfilling their full potential as members of Irish society. Yes, I know we need people to work these jobs, but there isn't much point in the same people being in the school system and getting lost in it: they're not doing themselves or their classmates any favours.

InFront wrote:

I'm pretty sure Urdu is more widely spoken as a day to day language here than Irish to be honest... certainly the pan-Slav languages are!

I've already addressed that point. We're not debating the merits of the Irish language here.

I know a lot of people who have moved here from Asia from the last 25 years right down to last month, and I don't know any who can't speak any English.

I can testify that such people exist. There are certainly those who cannot speak the language to the level required by our education system.

I agree with a policy of giving kids with bad English a crash course in the language. Whether they originate from Ireland or elsewhere is hardly relevant. It should perhaps also help kids who suffer from dyslexia, perhaps, since resources appear to be so tight at that level in the system.

But perhaps it would be more expedient to offer this crash course outside of class-time and not when these kids ought to be studying maths or some other academic activity, so that they will not get left behind.

Dyslexia is a separate issue altogether. People with dyslexia have no problem with spoken language. As regards written language, different techniques are required to help those affected by the condition than are required to simply teach English to a non-native speaker. Though I certainly agree that Ireland's high illiteracy levels are a disgrace.

Holding the course outside of class time would certainly be a possibility, and something which should be examined. If we were to have a proper debate on the issue, the pros and cons of a number of possible strategies could be weighed up against each other. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen, given both the state the Government has the economy in and also people's tendency to nit pick over a poor choice of words rather than look at the real issue.

meathstevie

Breezer wrote: »

...I know that Belgium has international schools where students are taught in their native languages. However, the situation is somewhat different there as there are large numbers of children of EU officials living there for short periods of time. The idea is to keep up their education as before, rather than integrate them into Belgian society.

Correct, but you have to add in that as a rule under the Belgian constitution education has to be in the official regional language with the second national language as obligational subject from 5th year in primary.

The practice looks as follows : in Flanders : Dutch+obligational French, in Wallonia : French+obligational Dutch and in the German speaking region German+French. Brussels is the odd one out, the language you go to school in depends on what school you select. Recently there has been a trend for people who don't have Dutch as a first language to select Flemish schools.

I remember going through primary and whenever kids from non-Dutch speaking backgrounds came to the school as new arrivals they were often segregated for one or two days a week over the duration of a couple of months and given intensive language courses.

I can't see nothing wrong with this practice, on the contrary it improves their chances of completing primary and secondary school with a fair chance of success while it prevents a whole class from getting slowed down because of the difficulties of one or two pupils. In a way you should look upon this as special needs teaching with the needs not defined by medical issues but by social issues. It's not racist, on the contrary, it's an extra facility provided for non-national kids in order to improve their ability of coping with the Irish education system.

InFront

Breezer wrote: »

There are those who come here who are more interested in making more money than they can at home by working minimum wage jobs than they are in fulfilling their full potential as members of Irish society.

In fairness, that would be just about everybody. People generally don't come to Ireland to fulfill some potential as a member of Irish society, naturally they're more interested in employment, quality of life, etc. That's the nature of economic migration.
I don't speak any Chinese language, but if in the morning Ireland were a third world country, and I had kids I wanted to have a successful future, then I'd have no qualms about moving there. Once there, then the language would start to become an issue, but not a huge one, we'd get by. That's pretty much what happens in ireland.

there isn't much point in the same people being in the school system and getting lost in it: they're not doing themselves or their classmates any favours.

That's obvious. Nobody's debating the issue that language support services need to be improved as far as I can see. I think the issue is how it's approached - ie that it should happen outside school hours, and of course include all children with language issues, even Irish kids.

I've already addressed that point. We're not debating the merits of the Irish language here.

I think you suggested that immigrants should learn to speak Irish OR English. M point is simply that most Irish people tend not to be fluent in Irish, and since the whole point of a common language is to maximise the number of residents with whom one can converse with maximum fluency, they'd be better off with Polish or Urdu than Irish.

I can testify that such people exist. There are certainly those who cannot speak the language to the level required by our education system.

Totally different issues. There's being able to communicate and get by in English and then there's being able to study poetry, chemistry or European history through English. You're talking about completely different levels and I would say that for any immigrant who has been here three months or more, the former is very very rare.

Dyslexia is a separate issue altogether. People with dyslexia have no problem with spoken language. As regards written language, different techniques are required to help those affected by the condition than are required to simply teach English to a non-native speaker.
It's not all about spoken language, these students need correct grammar and spelling as well. I can't see why dyslexic students should be excluded - they get very little as things stand, and since your main concern on this topic is progress for everybody and nobody getting held back, I'm surprised that you don't agree.
Hardly any point in dealing with one group of students with a potential language difficulty while excluding others, if teachers just end up focusing their attention on a newer group of students with special requirements.

Breezer

InFront wrote: »

In fairness, that would be just about everybody. People generally don't come to Ireland to fulfill some potential as a member of Irish society, naturally they're more interested in employment, quality of life, etc. That's the nature of economic migration.

Of course they are, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. My point is that sacrificing short term monetary gain, overcoming the language barrier and going through our education system will enable these people to go on, get a college degree and a decent job, thereby contributing more fully to Irish society and also benefiting themselves in the long term. Immigrants should be facilitated in this regard.

I think you suggested that immigrants should learn to speak Irish OR English. M point is simply that most Irish people tend not to be fluent in Irish, and since the whole point of a common language is to maximise the number of residents with whom one can converse with maximum fluency, they'd be better off with Polish or Urdu than Irish.

I did, and I stand by that. Irish is the first language of this country and if anyone living in this country, Irish or otherwise, wishes to go about their business in Irish then they are perfectly entitled to do so. I also suggested that this scenario is almost certainly confined solely to the realm of theory and while I fully support the right of people to do this, it would not be particularly practical.

Totally different issues. There's being able to communicate and get by in English and then there's being able to study poetry, chemistry or European history through English. You're talking about completely different levels and I would say that for any immigrant who has been here three months or more, the former is very very rare.

We're discussing enabling secondary school students with poor English skills to get through an intensely exam-focused system. Therefore, the latter would be the important skill.

It's not all about spoken language, these students need correct grammar and spelling as well. I can't see why dyslexic students should be excluded - they get very little as things stand, and since your main concern on this topic is progress for everybody and nobody getting held back, I'm surprised that you don't agree.
Hardly any point in dealing with one group of students with a potential language difficulty while excluding others, if teachers just end up focusing their attention on a newer group of students with special requirements.

I agree, of course grammar and spelling are important, but the methods of teaching a foreign language to a non-native speaker are completely different to the methods employed to give special tuition to students with dyslexia. Both are required, but the issues should not be confused.