Moderator attitude on the Soccer Forum

--amadeus--

I thought this was going to be discussed yesterday but it wasn't followed through on so I'm going to pop it up and see if I'm being over-sensitive...

Over the summer there were a heap of changes made to the soccer forum. 99% were excellent, in particular the yellow / red card warning system. One change was made that i personally don't like but hey, that's life.

One of the things that I did like though is that a thread was created to discuss the rule changes. As that thread is now several months old and 15 pages long it's pretty obvious that the rule changes are not univerally popular, though how much of that is down to a vocal minority is hard to say. What is obvious is that an (IMO) silly and pedantic rule has generated a lot of (predictably) pedantic and silly argument and controversy.

Now the soccer forum is busy and - by it's nature - fairly volatile. But if a thread is there to invite discussion (and by implication critisism) of a new rule set then I would hope that moderators would react in an adult and mature manner to the comments made.

Instead we get:

What the hell is wrong with people?...Grow up for crying out loud.

link

Maybe its because people can't get simple ideas into their head.

Match discussion in one thread.
Anything else in another thread.

A 5 year old child could understand that. Oh, you ya know what the most hilarious thing is. Pretty much every single other soccer forum on the internet has a match thread where all the match discussions go!! Jesus christ like.

link

there is no crayon option, although some of you seem to need it...
That is pretty much the end of the dicussion on the matter from our point of view, you can keeep talking

link

If you want to play this game, I have no problem being a hardass.

link

Now if I posted with that sort of cranky, aggressive and overly emotional attitude I would - rightly - be warned and banned. But because they are Moderators they are allowed to insult and threaten those who disagree with them?

I appreciate that a busy and potentially controversial forum needs rules. But Atheism is likely to stir up just as much passion and strong feeling and it's lightly moderated. As a result the debate is almost universally respectful. The Learning to drive forum was brilliantly moderated during a very sour few weeks during the accompanied driver debate. In those cases moderators were clear about rules but assumed that the posters were adults. This does not seem to be the case in Soccer.

I know the easy answer - don't go there - and I won't; life is too short and if I want to be spoken to like a child I'll talk to my wife! But isn't there some hypocrisy in moderators demanding that posters respect each other when they show so little respect themselves?

Marcus.Aurelius

I agree with the principle you are extolling the virtues of, but does it apply to people who moderate forums without payment?

EDIT: More importantly, do you think the level of work in the soccor forum is too much? Are you saying we need more moderators, or just better ones?

--amadeus--

I would say it applies to moderators irrespective of payment or not. If you are a volunteer in a "real" club you don't have the right to bad-mouth people, "virtual" clubs should operate on the same principla.

I do think that there is too much work for the mods in soccer and more would help but finding good moderators who will be neutral in such a partisan area would be very difficult.

The Recliner

--amadeus-- wrote: »

In those cases moderators were clear about rules but assumed that the posters were adults. This does not seem to be the case in Soccer.

I know the easy answer - don't go there - and I won't; life is too short and if I want to be spoken to like a child I'll talk to my wife! But isn't there some hypocrisy in moderators demanding that posters respect each other when they show so little respect themselves?

To be fair to the moderators of the soccer forum, there are a lot of posters who act like children

Soccer and its associated tribalism seems to bring it out in people

In an ideal world discussion would be allowed to flow but given that without moderation it descends into trolling and flame wars then I welcome the heavy handed moderation

Marcus.Aurelius

Just pick ones who don't like soccer enough to pick favourites. Or even some that aren't into soccer.

That might not work either, it means your mods will not contribute to the forum much, but with such a busy one like Soccer, it might not matter. Hard work for anyone though who has no interest in it!

Gandalf23

--amadeus-- wrote: »

In those cases moderators were clear about rules but assumed that the posters were adults. This does not seem to be the case in Soccer.?

The soccer forum was a big mess in the past, and the current "hardass" moderator atitude stems directly from that. People who act like children/idiots are likely going to be treated as such.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I know the easy answer - don't go there - and I won't; life is too short and if I want to be spoken to like a child I'll talk to my wife! But isn't there some hypocrisy in moderators demanding that posters respect each other when they show so little respect themselves?

Too drastic man ... dont give up yet!!! Just participate in the discussions and keep to the rules. Its only the Internet ffs ... not serious business, and this site is fantastic

Bob the Builder

Too many cooks spoil the broth.
It's not about how much manpower you throw at it - it's how you deal with it.

The soccer forum is - once again - becoming a victim of itself - creating discussion, then out of nowhere comes too much discussion, post count whores, and general bastards.

I feel sorry for the mods.

Marcus.Aurelius

Perhaps a cull is required.

Remove all permissions for users to the forum and get everyone to re-register with higher minimum post counts?

Actually that's too drastic.

--amadeus--

The Comfortable Chair wrote: »

To be fair to the moderators of the soccer forum, there are a lot of posters who act like children

Soccer and its associated tribalism seems to bring it out in people

In an ideal world discussion would be allowed to flow but given that without moderation it descends into trolling and flame wars then I welcome the heavy handed moderation

No argument - the ratio of adults to kids seems abnormally high in there. And I have no problem with tight moderation. If someone dileberatly stirs it up, trolls, flames or whatever then throw them out. I know it's a difficult line because football conversations (real or virtual) involve slagging but there is a clear line between "Player X is a muppet" and topics like Hilsborough, Hysel or Munich - ban the offensive ones and let other conversations flow.

But the point I wanted to make was less about the policy and more about the attitude - I don't realy care about the rules but is asking moderators to be civil to posters asking to much?!

GuanYin

I've discussed the rule change several times in several places, including feedback, I'm not dicussing it again, do a thread search..

Regarding our attitude, my posts were in direct response to some rather pedantic and snipey posts towards PHB which were very much OTT. I've allowed some inferred abuse towards mods in that thread you linked to, I'll be banning for it from here on in.

I'm not going to turn this into a he-said/she-said thread.

We've allowed that thread for discussion of rules to the point of clarifying points and allowing feedback. We never said we'd allow it be a soapbox or change any rules because of it.

The rules are there, follow them or don't post.

In fact, if you're leaving the soccer forum, what is the point of this thread?

--amadeus--

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Its only the Internet ffs

:eek:

mike65

GuanYin is the oscarBravo of soccer. Curt replies do not help anyone least of all the moderator.

Mike

GuanYin

mike65 wrote: »

GuanYin is the oscarBravo of soccer. Curt replies do not help anyone least of all the moderator.

I see that as a compliment and even if it wasn't, I see any insult from you as a compliment.

I've expanded that post but I don't see the point in verbose retreading for your amusement.

mike65

Ya see!. Such interaction in real life would get you a punch from many (not me as I run from girls who give me the evil eye)

Mike.

Steve

Every time I see a thread like this I take pride in the fact that I know absolutely nothing (nor want to) about Soccer.

It really seems unique in it's ability to bring out the worst in people.

Gandalf23

SteveC wrote: »

Every time I see a thread like this I take pride in the fact that I know absolutely nothing (nor want to) about Soccer.

It really seems unique in it's ability to bring out the worst in people.

Yeah, soccer and Internet discussion boards in general ...

Not to mention a combination of the two ...

--amadeus--

I don't think anyone gives a rats ass wheither I'm in or out of the soccer forum, or any other forum for that matter. But the point of the thread was to highlight what I thought were fairly serious double standards between the attitude expected of posters and that displayed by moderators. I obviously couldn't do that in Soccer and the thread yesterday apparently wasn't about soccer after all (and is now locked).

And I'm confused by your post - you'll allow discussion of the rules for feedback but not change rules because of it?

Anyway for clarity - I feel that the attitude of moderators to posters in the soccer forum is uncalled for and may ultimatley be counter-productive as well as being offensive. That is my feedback and so the point of this thread.

GuanYin

--amadeus-- wrote: »

And I'm confused by your post - you'll allow discussion of the rules for feedback but not change rules because of it?

Correct.

Occasionally we look at the comments and take them on board. We did so recently, in fact, ironically, the rules that you are complaining about come directly from the forum members via a previous rule discussion thread.

However, we are under no obligation to do so, if we were to change rules everytime 5-10 posters made a complaint, the soccer forum would be a mess.

So yes, we won't be changing any rules as a result of discussion in that thread unless we feel there is a need.

therecklessone

SteveC wrote: »

It really seems unique in it's ability to bring out the worst in people.

Try discussing Hill 16/Dublin fans on the GAA forum.

Try discussing immigration or the travelling community on pretty much any forum.

Most of the time, most of the posters on the soccer forum are civil and contribute to meaningful discussions. Every now and then things get heated and a person or persons will lash out (I'll hold my hands up and say I've been guilty of that in the past) but for the most part the forum functions well.

From personal experience the people who are most likely to question the behaviour of soccer fans on boards (and the conduct of the forum) are those who either do not post there, or rarely visit the forum. Seems the closing of the forum four years ago, and the odd feedback thread since then continues to colour people's opinions of what is by and large a decent forum.

That's an awful shame.

--amadeus--

GuanYin wrote: »

Correct.

Occasionally we look at the comments and take them on board. We did so recently, in fact, ironically, the rules that you are complaining about come directly from the forum members via a previous rule discussion thread.

However, we are under no obligation to do so, if we were to change rules everytime 5-10 posters made a complaint, the soccer forum would be a mess.

So yes, we won't be changing any rules as a result of discussion in that thread unless we feel there is a need.

With the greatest respect I think you are missing my point. I'm not on feedback complaining about the rule changes in Soccer. I made my points in the thread and it's up to you and the other mods to do as you see fit there.

My point - complaint if you want - is that the attitude and posts of the moderators were inapropriate, there were a number of insults and digs that would have been unacceptable had they come from regular posters but seem ok because they come from mods. The general tone of the soccer forum is grand, as it happens - I just take exception to moderators who act in a way / post in a manner that I feel wouldn't be tolerated if it came from anyone else.

tbh

One thing you have to bear in mind is that people can and do vote with their feet. People make a trade-off in their minds between the size of the irritant and the benefit they get from the activity. You have to assume that, given soccer is one of the most popular fora on the site, most people accept that the style of moderation in that forum is a price worth paying for the benefit of being a participant on the forum.

That is a fact.

The disagreement that arises from that is that you feel the mods attitude is unnecessary - that the forum would be more or less the same, even if the mods were more respectful in their request. The attitude is "If you treat them like adults, they'll behave like adults".

The mods - I'm talking about psi really - would say that the converse is true - that the posters behave like children, and should be treated as such, and that the benefits arise because of - not in spite of - their moderating style, and there's an argument to support that, given the way the soccer forum used to be.

My own opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that I agree to some extent with the op and mike, I too have found psi to be curt and - to be honest - quite patronising at times in my limited dealings with her, although I do respect her. It seems to me that she takes things too personally, and reacts too aggressively, like she did with mike on this thread.

I think if you need to ban someone, just ban them. No warnings, no gloating. Just ban them. I promise you, they'll learn soon enough. Create a sub-forum of the helpdesk for the fallout and forget about it. If you're pissed off with the forum, and it's posters, then just walk away and let someone else have a shot. And I'm saying that with your best interests at heart, psi.

RE*AC*TOR

Well, animals are not like people, Mrs. Simpson. Some of them act badly because they've had a hard life, or have been mistreated...but, like people, some of them are just jerks.

GuanYin

tbh wrote: »

The mods - I'm talking about psi really - would say that the converse is true - that the posters behave like children, and should be treated as such, and that the benefits arise because of - not in spite of - their moderating style, and there's an argument to support that, given the way the soccer forum used to be.

I think if the posters behave fairly, I'll treat them fairly. If they act like idiots, I'll treat them like idiots.

I may well be aggresive in modding soccer.

I don't like banning people. I try avoid it. I'd much rather bark than bite. Hence if I can keep order by snapping at someone rather than banning them then maybe the forum will change for the better.

I'm not really interested in being liked, but if the regular posters feel the forum works, I'll stay. If I'm not wanted there, I'm sure the masses will let me know, soccer forum posters tend to be quite aggresive about letting us know when they want to get rid of us.

I'd also like to think that people vote with their feet. There are lots and lots and lots of soccer forums on the internet. There are lots in Ireland. I think boards.ie soccer forum is competitive, considering the only forum busiers than us on the biggest site in Ireland is AH (and we have been growing, considering we recently overtook motors).

and reacts too aggressively, like she did with mike on this thread.

I tend to react aggresively when people infer insult my co-mods (Oscarbravo as above) and infer a similar insult on me (and then imply I deserve physical abuse).

I merely pointed out that I think highly of OB and have no problem being compared while simultaneously thinking nothing of mike65's opinon.

Exactly what civil part of mike's post did I react badly to?

tbh

my point really was that you shouldn't have reacted at all.

GuanYin

tbh wrote: »

my point really was that you shouldn't have reacted at all.

Maybe you're right, but that is not what you said originally - you accused me of reacting aggresively. I was hardly aggresive or abusive and I'll reserve right to to reply to those who are (as Mike was).

tbh

GuanYin wrote: »

I see that as a compliment

that bit was fair enough

and even if it wasn't, I see any insult from you as a compliment.

that was excessive, imo. In fairness, excessive is probably a fairer word than aggressive, so yeah, I take your point on that, I think you can be aggressive but whenever I've thought that, it's always been defensive aggression, which I can understand (even if I think it's a wasted effort).

Chong

Well well someone seemingly has the balls to speak about this unlike Cowardly moi who skirted around it yesterday for fear of the backlash, then again I am coward , back to my hole I go ...........

gandalf

Well you are no longer big willy

Chong

gandalf wrote: »

Well you are no longer big willy

True Gandalf my good man, its more shrunk willy LOL

Sorry for going OT.

GuanYin

Van Zuylen wrote: »

Well well someone seemingly has the balls to speak about this unlike Cowardly moi who skirted around it yesterday for fear of the backlash, then again I am coward , back to my hole I go ...........

But you weren't talking about soccer yesterday

--amadeus--

FWIW I would consider GuanYin the more civil, grown up and mature of the two principal soccer mods.

Chong

GuanYin wrote: »

But you weren't talking about soccer yesterday

No I wasnt ...........................................................

Chong

--amadeus-- wrote: »

FWIW I would consider GuanYin the more civil, grown up and mature of the two principal soccer mods.

Good Lord , so its not GuanYin at fault , who we talking here, T4TF, PHB or Dub13?

gandalf

Van Zuylen wrote: »

True Gandalf my good man, its more shrunk willy LOL

Sorry for going OT.

Thats old age for you....

thebaldsoprano

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I appreciate that a busy and potentially controversial forum needs rules. But Atheism is likely to stir up just as much passion and strong feeling and it's lightly moderated. As a result the debate is almost universally respectful.

Well, as someone who managed to get themselves kicked off the atheism forum, the things you posted here by the mods seem fair enough. If it were the case that they were being paid to mod and I was paying to post that'd be a different story, but come on it's people chipping in in their spare time and doing things on a best effort basis.

Mereckons mods should get to be a bit crankier than other posters if needed given the effort they're putting in of their own accord. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to make such I nice case as you given some of my posts though

mike65

mike65 wrote: »

Ya see!. Such interaction in real life would get you a punch from many (not me as I run from girls who give me the evil eye)

Mike.

GuanYin wrote: »

I may well be aggresive in modding soccer.

I tend to react aggresively when people infer insult my co-mods (Oscarbravo as above) and infer a similar insult on me (and then imply I deserve physical abuse).

Thats quite a leap I did NOT imply any such thing. I suggested if you interfaced with real humans as you have done in this thread you might get a response that was less than freindly. I did not suggest you deserved it only that you might get it. There is a difference.

Mike.

Steve

therecklessone wrote: »

Most of the time, most of the posters on the soccer forum are civil and contribute to meaningful discussions.

You are 100% correct and I interact with soccer forum users in other fora on a daily basis. I was merely giving my experience as an outsider. It's an unfortunate fact that the outsiders only ever see it when it goes wrong and so their opinion of the orchard is tarnished by the few bad apples. It's a bit like real life isn't it - well behaved fans dont make news headlines.

From personal experience the people who are most likely to question the behaviour of soccer fans on boards (and the conduct of the forum) are those who either do not post there, or rarely visit the forum. Seems the closing of the forum four years ago, and the odd feedback thread since then continues to colour people's opinions of what is by and large a decent forum.

Personally, as a non user, I would not attempt to comment on any specifics, however I, like many others on boards only ever see it when threads like this or 'I was banned unfairly - fight teh powah' threads pop up. The same can be said of a few other fora where we only ever see the overspill - politics would be a good example.
The fact that the moderation teams have now zeroed in on how to maintain control, albeit harshly in some cases, and yet keep the vast majority of users happy warrants applause yet at the same time attracts criticism when they seem unwilling to change a time tested formula.

AckwelFoley

send terry in there. Problem solved imo.

I dont visit the soccer forums, i have access but i just think the entry system is retarded.

If one there misbehaves ban them, like in any other forum here.

Chong

snyper wrote: »

send terry in there. Problem solved imo.

I dont visit the soccer forums, i have access but i just think the entry system is retarded.

If one there misbehaves ban them, like in any other forum here.

Terry as Soccer Forum mod would be mental fun.

Boggles

This was all started by some muppet who attacked the mods of the soccer forum for deleting his post, which turns out wasn't deleted at all.

If you ask me, the criteria for entering the soccer forum is too remedial.

5starpool

Boggles wrote: »

This was all started by some muppet who attacked the mods of the soccer forum for deleting his post, which turns out wasn't deleted at all.

If you ask me, the criteria for entering the soccer forum is too remedial.

His post about the deleted thread came after he brought the issue up in the first place (and he is not the only one to bring it up). Also, when it was pointed out that his post was not deleted, he went back, looked, saw he was srong and apologised. I don't think your muppet comment is called for.From was I have seen of redspiders posts (and most of them in the liverpool thread) he is never out of line, only commenting with match reviews, how he sees things panning out and other general liverpool talk. The fact that one of his match posts was moved made him a bit annoyed at the rules system.

I do see where GuanYin is coming from, but I disagree with it (as is my wont). My disagreement of this new rule is irrelevant though, but I think that any comments I have put in saying this were not (I hope) ones that she felt were worthy of sharp reply. I do think that she is quite confrontational, but each to their own I guess, confrontational doesn't necessarily mean bad and ones mans confrontation etc etc.

smashey

therecklessone wrote: »

Try discussing Hill 16/Dublin fans on the GAA forum.

The GAA forum peaks at this time of year and even more when Dublin are involved in the latter stages of the football championship. Since last Saturday, we have been taking no sh1t whatsoever in GAA and a few bans have been dished out.

The soccer forum is a different beast altogether in that it is busy every day of the year and tribalism is rampant. In GAA, the majority of trolling/flaming is directed at Dublin.

I don't envy the soccer mods who do a good job.

Boggles

5starpool wrote: »

His post about the deleted thread came after he brought the issue up in the first place (and he is not the only one to bring it up). Also, when it was pointed out that his post was not deleted, he went back, looked, saw he was srong and apologised. I don't think your muppet comment is called for.

I didn't see an apology. There was this.

redspider wrote: »

Well, this time I WILL put my hands up and say mea culpa.

The post in question IS there after all, neither deleted nor moved. I just couldnt remember what I wrote!

Good to hear that moderators do track what is deleted.

And as for the comments from the 'usual suspects' .......

Hardly Grovelling!! I stand by my muppet comment, tis hardly the worst thing in the world to be called now is it for his tone and attitude? I'm sure he is a grand fellow.

Xavi6

Lol as soon as I logged into soccer and saw that thread locked I knew this was the place to come.

therecklessone wrote: »

Most of the time, most of the posters on the soccer forum are civil and contribute to meaningful discussions. Every now and then things get heated and a person or persons will lash out (I'll hold my hands up and say I've been guilty of that in the past) but for the most part the forum functions well.

From personal experience the people who are most likely to question the behaviour of soccer fans on boards (and the conduct of the forum) are those who either do not post there, or rarely visit the forum. Seems the closing of the forum four years ago, and the odd feedback thread since then continues to colour people's opinions of what is by and large a decent forum.

That's an awful shame.

^^^ This is the truth.

The whole rules thing has been completely blown out of all proportion. There were a couple of minimal changes, most of which have actually benefitted the casual user as all previous bans have been wiped from your personal record meaning you're a lot further away from that third strike than you previously were. The red/yellow card system also makes it a lot more difficult to get banned. But of course people will nit pick at the little negatives rather than looking at all the positives.

The soccer mods do a great job. GY gets a lot of unnecessary stick. I have yet to see a ban that A) wasn't really deserved or wasn't overturned when she held her hands up and admitted a mistake. You can't ask for much more from a mod really. Complaining about her 'attitude' is again nit picking. If you had to deal with the amount of trolls, muppets and general arseholes that frequent the soccer/politics forums you'd be pretty snappy too.

In summary, not a lot has changed, there is no need for additional mods now Dub13 is in, and there is far less tribalism/baiting than there used to be. Good all round.

snyper wrote: »

I dont visit the soccer forums, i have access but i just think the entry system is retarded.

Why? It was hardly put there for no reason in fairness. I doubt the mods like having to reply to 15 or 20 requests every second day, half of which have come from tools who claim to have read a charter when they clearly haven't. I can't imagine dealing with people of that level can be fun.

javaboy

Xavi6 wrote: »

Why? It was hardly put there for no reason in fairness.

It's funny. I know why the entry rules are there and I fully agree with the need for them but for some reason it kind of irks me that I'd have to apply for access with the whole "state the italicised words" thing. It feels a bit condescending or something. I think other people feel the same way.

I doubt the mods like having to reply to 15 or 20 requests every second day, half of which have come from tools who claim to have read a charter when they clearly haven't. I can't imagine dealing with people of that level can be fun.

Judging by some of the eh... creative replies to incorrect soccer access requests, I think the mods may take a certain small pleasure in it.

5starpool

Boggles wrote: »

I didn't see an apology. There was this.



Hardly Grovelling!! I stand by my muppet comment, tis hardly the worst thing in the world to be called now is it for his tone and attitude? I'm sure he is a grand fellow.

Well if you want to split hairs......

Also, I just wanted to say for no real reason whatsoever, that you are the only person on boards I have ever come close to putting on ignore. Ovbiously you don't give a crap, and why would you, but just thought i'd say it.

Boggles

5starpool wrote: »

Well if you want to split hairs......

Also, I just wanted to say for no real reason whatsoever, that you are the only person on boards I have ever come close to putting on ignore. Ovbiously you don't give a crap, and why would you, but just thought i'd say it.

Why would you feel compelled to say that? And why don't you just do it?

I actually think putting people on ignore is retarded.

To be honest it is posters like you on the soccer forum that make moderating it such a hard task.

Bob the Builder

I now put forward the motion that all payment previously handed to the soccer mods now be retracted on the grounds of, erm, attitude.

There's some forums on here that have more skangers in them than the luas on a saturday afternoon - even finglas everyday of the week. and from what i saw of soccer before it got it's massive culling - it was a perfect example.

5starpool

Boggles wrote: »

To be honest it is posters like you on the soccer forum that make moderating it such a hard task.

Link to posts where I have made moderating it hard please?

Also, coming from someone who has had 10 of his soccer posts reported in less than 4 months that is very rich.

Edit: Reading the Liverpool thread and tonights posts show your true nature and general purpose for posting in that thread imo.

Charlie

As a Newky fan, I think the new rules make perfect sense, and allow for better interaction with other members of a forum that is all to often heavily segregated.

However, I can see some of the logic behind some of the concerns that were put forward in the discussion thread, and I certainly felt they merited a proper discussion. The response, imo, to some of these concerns were un-necessarily sharp and dismissive. I can appreciate the difficulty of modding the soccer forum, but the underlying master and servant tone to some of the posts, only serves to set a bad example, and makes having a reasoned discussion, of something that is in everyone's interest, increasingly difficult and 'my side v. your side'.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

To be honest it is posters like you on the soccer forum that make moderating it such a hard task.

wtf? That is ridiculous. Dom has never trolled anyone in there or lost his cool. If everyone posted like him in there we would have no problems period.

I say shut the thing down. Boards.ie and the appointed moderators have attempted to provide a football forum that moves beyond the stupidity and illiteracy of every other football forum on the net. Seems such efforts aren't appreciated. So I say close it down and leave us to the forums where "content" =

- Man U r da best man. CHAMPIONS!!
- No Man U r **** man - Manc scum imo.
- Shut up you dirty scouser
- Hey, ur not a reel footie lad unless u support an Irish team like
- **** you the Eircom league is ****e
- No it isn't you tosser...

I think you see what I mean.