Disasters in Irish sport

lt_cmdr_worf

Seeing as Ireland are coming back from another Olympics empty-handed, it brings up this question for me: what is the biggest disaster in Irish sport, be it soccer, rugby, swimming etc, you can remember?

Mine is Sonia O'Sullivan pulling out of the 5000m final in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dgxEct0B6Y

mike65

You are being rather previous, no?

Mike.

damnyanks

Irelands performance in the last rugby world cup.

Zaph

Three of our five boxers are in the quarter finals (same as Russia incidentally, who had boxers in all 11 weight divisions) and I wouldn't bet against at least one of them making the semis and picking up a medal.

Jello

damnyanks wrote: »

Irelands performance in the last rugby world cup.

Would have to go with this.

estebancambias

The Ireland vs Cyprus match was pretty horrible....

Actually for a 'sports mad' country what the hell are we doing?

I think I read somewhere we have the sports faclities of a third world country.

newballsplease

michelle smith being stripped of her medals.
steve stauntons reign as manager.
ireland v cyprus.
ireland v macedonia(that year they leveled the match in the last min, think it was euro qualification?)
roy keanes argument with mick mc carthy
again irelands rugby world cup

robinph

newballsplease wrote: »

michelle smith being stripped of her medals.

She wasn't.

But maybe that's your point?

moe_sizlak

estebancambias wrote: »

The Ireland vs Cyprus match was pretty horrible....

Actually for a 'sports mad' country what the hell are we doing?

I think I read somewhere we have the sports faclities of a third world country.

no , thats just the excuse we like the best for winning nothing

Pride Fighter

lt_cmdr_worf wrote: »

Seeing as Ireland are coming back from another Olympics empty-handed, it brings up this question for me: what is the biggest disaster in Irish sport, be it soccer, rugby, swimming etc, you can remember?

Mine is Sonia O'Sullivan pulling out of the 5000m final in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dgxEct0B6Y

I dont know what olympics you are watching, it looks like we are going to get at least 2 medals in the boxing and possibly one in the equestrian.

Nolanger

We will get a medal in the boxing.
As for Ireland being crap - agreed - always makes me laugh that we're supposed to be a sporting country.
But look at India - 1 billion residents and they managed 1 medal so far!

eunified61

lt_cmdr_worf wrote: »

Seeing as Ireland are coming back from another Olympics empty-handed, it brings up this question for me: what is the biggest disaster in Irish sport, be it soccer, rugby, swimming etc, you can remember?

Mine is Sonia O'Sullivan pulling out of the 5000m final in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dgxEct0B6Y

The biggest disaster in Irish sport has to be our failure to promote hurling to the same level as a lot of lesser sports around the world. Hurling could have been worth more to this country than a few oil wells. Imagine how many people could have been making fortunes if hurling had been promoted abroad like soccer was

Nolanger

It's because of that culchie-bogger sport that we haven't yet won an Olympic medal in China when over 70 countries have done so.

gordon_gekko

eunified61 wrote: »

The biggest disaster in Irish sport has to be our failure to promote hurling to the same level as a lot of lesser sports around the world. Hurling could have been worth more to this country than a few oil wells. Imagine how many people could have been making fortunes if hurling had been promoted abroad like soccer was

i dont like hurling and it irritates me some what how hurling folk always assume that everyone loves hurling , never met a hurling fan who didnt trot out the jaded its the fastest and best game in the world

gixerfixer

gordon_gekko wrote: »

i dont like hurling and it irritates me some what how hurling folk always assume that everyone loves hurling , never met a hurling fan who didnt trot out the jaded its the fastest and best game in the world

Couldnt agree more.Spent time living in the states and went to a baseball game.It was more exciting than hurling<<<<<says just how boring a sport it is.

eagle eye

Well you are on the right track although I think hurling is a great sport. The GAA is one of the reasons we don't have that much success in Athletics and other sports.

I think the best thing that could happen here is something similar to Australia where you try out sports every year as a kid. You move on if its clear that you don't like and are not successful at whatever sport you are currently involved in. If someone shows talent in a particular sport they are sent to a national coaching centre where if they succeed and like it they are trained correctly for that sport.

moe_sizlak

the reason we do so poorly at olympic events is not down to out population or our facilities , its because of the GAA , the gaa is all consuming in this country and the majority of people who have sporting talent get hoovered up by it at a young age , those who dont are mainly in dublin and other citys and they usually end up in soccer followed by rugby , this leaves very few for the likes of track and field
the gaa is like no ther sporting org in the world , its a bigger force in this country than the catholic church in 2008

ps . i think the gaa is great

ZiggyStardust

Nolanger wrote: »

always makes me laugh that we're supposed to be a sporting country.

I meant to ask this before, but where did this myth come from that Ireland is a sporting nation? I don't get it.
We have never dominated any sport in the world EVER. We have had a few great results in sport (Kelly, Roche, O'Sullivan, Coghlan, Mcguigan, Harrington etc), but I'd never say we were the dominant force in any sport/event. Maybe with the exception of O'sullivan.

I think what you mean is that we love supporting our hero's on the World stage. Using the Italia 90/USA 94 example, but as far as competing we were never a power in sport.

Now the olympics is on you expect us to win a bag full of medals?

This topic has been talked about in another thread which was closed. There is no point in talking about it again.

Pherekydes

Worst disaster in Irish sport?

The Irish government.

thirdmantackle

baseball game? you're kidding. packaged to sell beer and hotdogs

sports funding in ireland is a joke

more money spent on prizes for horse racing than on all the other sports

eagle eye

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

I meant to ask this before, but where did this myth come from that Ireland is a sporting nation? I don't get it.
We have never dominated any sport in the world EVER. We have had a few great results in sport (Kelly, Roche, O'Sullivan, Coghlan, Mcguigan, Harrington etc), but I'd never say we were the dominant force in any sport/event. Maybe with the exception of O'sullivan.

I think what you mean is that we love supporting our hero's on the World stage. Using the Italia 90/USA 94 example, but as far as competing we were never a power in sport.

Now the olympics is on you expect us to win a bag full of medals?

This topic has been talked about in another thread which was closed. There is no point in talking about it again.

How come nobody ever mentions John Treacy among the athletes? Two World Cross County titles and an Olympic silver in the Marathon.
Also we owned the mile at Indoor Athletics for a long time. Coughlan was the King of the boards and then Marcus O'Sullivan took over from him.

KJ_2008

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

I meant to ask this before, but where did this myth come from that Ireland is a sporting nation? I don't get it.
We have never dominated any sport in the world EVER.

Do you have to dominate sports to be regarded as a fairly useful sporting nation? News to me.

PS When we're talking about Irish sporting greats can we not insult the genuine articles by including Michelle Smith and Stephen Roche?

donegal11

thirdmantackle wrote: »

sports funding in ireland is a joke

more money spent on prizes for horse racing than on all the other sports

The reason is there is no appetite for track and field events in this country use the television coverage/ratings for athletics as an example in comparison to the gaa and horse racing.After such a dissappointing olympics there will be even less support from the general public how can you justify spending tax payers money on a bunch of no hopers.

The argument that the gaa is taking people away from other sports is a bit of a red herring.if we didnt have the gaa would we have a bunch of world class Athletes taken from our recent results from international rules i dont think so.(the only benchmark we have of international standard).The gaa then could put up the same argument that sports such as rugby and soccer were taking there best athletes

thirtyfoot

donegal11 wrote: »

justify spending tax payers money

donegal11 wrote: »

red herring

Using words like no-hopers and wasting tax payers money gets peoples back up and possibly shows a poor understanding of elite sports' requirements in the country. Grants are small and not going to break the economy, 13-15k a year on average per athlete.

If you want to be tabloid you could take 56 single mothers who are not working or who have never worked* and they will have "wasted" more of the tax-payers money than the wasters out in Beijing. Are you au fait with the funding structures in sport in Ireland.

*Not saying single mother shouldn't get money and olympic athletes should, just using as an example.

moe_sizlak

donegal11 wrote: »

The reason is there is no appetite for track and field events in this country use the television coverage/ratings for athletics as an example in comparison to the gaa and horse racing.After such a dissappointing olympics there will be even less support from the general public how can you justify spending tax payers money on a bunch of no hopers.

The argument that the gaa is taking people away from other sports is a bit of a red herring.if we didnt have the gaa would we have a bunch of world class Athletes taken from our recent results from international rules i dont think so.(the only benchmark we have of international standard).The gaa then could put up the same argument that sports such as rugby and soccer were taking there best athletes

i praised the gaa but its a stone cold fact that the gaa is a behomoth in terms of sporting dominance in this country
it drains the resources of every sport , soccer is extremly popular in terms of viewing figures on tv in this country but outside dublin , a young boy aged 11 is far far more likely to be playing gaelic football in cavan or hurling in tipperary than soccer

Pherekydes

donegal11 wrote: »

The argument that the gaa is taking people away from other sports is a bit of a red herring.

It's very obviously not. Great athletes choose the sport they like best, and for many this means choosing a team sport over an individual sport. There are many examples, too.

Gary Halpin holds the national junior record in the Hammer, but his main sport was rugby.

Victor Costello broke the Irish record in the Shot and represented us in the '92 Olympics at a fairly young age, but he then concentrated entirely on Rugby.

Brendan Mullin held the record in the 110m Hurdles, but spent most of his adult sporting career scoring tries for Ireland.

Michael Kiernan won the national 200m crown, but he broke scoring records for Ireland.

There must be hundreds of young boys and girls who decided to choose their team sport over Athletics at a much younger age, before they get to national level.

So team sports DO take athletes from individual sports and Athletics suffers most in this regard because of the transferability of skills.

eagle eye

donegal11 wrote: »

The reason is there is no appetite for track and field events in this country use the television coverage/ratings for athletics as an example in comparison to the gaa and horse racing.After such a dissappointing olympics there will be even less support from the general public how can you justify spending tax payers money on a bunch of no hopers.

The argument that the gaa is taking people away from other sports is a bit of a red herring.if we didnt have the gaa would we have a bunch of world class Athletes taken from our recent results from international rules i dont think so.(the only benchmark we have of international standard).The gaa then could put up the same argument that sports such as rugby and soccer were taking there best athletes

Well I can tell you for certain that two young athletes who were very promising eventually gave in to pressure from their families to play gaa and both ended with long term injuries, the third best athlete of this group of athletes ended up representing Ireland on the International stage including the World Championship.
Theres been a lot of top class athletic talent that ended up crocked from gaa. As for that compromise rules game, you have to remember that its professionals against amateurs.
Irish athletes competing at the Olympics are trained to a much higher standard than Gaa players. So just because the Gaa lose to a bunch of professional athletes from Australia, it doesn't follow on that we cannot make it at other sports.

thirdmantackle

no point giving grants to a few elite athletes when 95% of the country have no access to good swimming pools, we've no proper indoor running track, no indoor cycling track, very few decent outdoor running tracks, crap facilities for rowing and boxing clubs

provision of facilities and introduction of children to sport is left to all the sporting organisations rather than being done in the schools

Dodge

lt_cmdr_worf wrote: »

Seeing as Ireland are coming back from another Olympics empty-handed

Can we close the thread now?

robinph

Not empty handed at all, bronze guaranteed now.

Sparks

Pherekydes wrote: »

Worst disaster in Irish sport?
The Irish government.

Amen to that. €50 million for the entire capital spending of all Irish sports in an olympic year? Padraig Harrington will earn enough from the British Open win to pay for that without effort. Hell, he'll earn enough from the British Open win (prize money+endorsements+all the rest) to pay for the entire budget spent on Irish sport in the last four years. And the money that is going to the rest of Irish sport for capital spending is not permitted to be spent on buying land on which to conduct sport. The single most expensive part of any sports club is the ground it stands on, and to even qualify for further financial aid from the Sports Council, you have to already own that or have a 20-year lease on it. So if you're not established, you're stuffed. Want to know why you're seeing only a few medals? That's why.

(And the GAA don't hoover up young talent - they get a lot of young talent coming to them because in most of the country, they're the only organised sport with facilities in the local area and coaching and any kind of structure. When and where other sports invest in facilities and coaching and so on, they clean up as well - look at the junior and schools programs in Archery or Target Shooting. But when you can't get help to set up facilities, and there's no funding for facilities coming down the line, how can you chase after young talent for your sport?)

Sparks

thirdmantackle wrote: »

no point giving grants to a few elite athletes when 95% of the country have no access to good swimming pools, we've no proper indoor running track, no indoor cycling track, very few decent outdoor running tracks, crap facilities for rowing and boxing clubs

Yeah, that €2.2 million we spent on all the high performance grants this year (that's junior, developmental, international, world class and contracted, in all sports) was a total waste of money, obviously. I mean, it's not like money makes a difference, just look at Padraig Harrington. He's had to get by on miniscule amounts like the 5 million that's going in the upcoming New Orleans match...

thirdmantackle

what i meant was: that funding the elite end of sport is a waste when there is very little being done at grassroots level to develop elite sportspeople of the future

the basic thing required in every sport is access to decent facilities at a local level

Pride Fighter

robinph wrote: »

Not empty handed at all, bronze guaranteed now.

Make that two.

Sparks

Yes, but it also needs the high level stuff to give people something to aim for. Without "sporting heros" you get no media coverage, no funding, no target for enthusiastic beginners, nothing.
You have to simultaenously grow the base and pull/push up the top - otherwise you get either an unstable spike that falls over or a large fried egg with nothing accomplished.

donegal11

Pherekydes wrote: »

Gary Halpin holds the national junior record in the Hammer, but his main sport was rugby.

Victor Costello broke the Irish record in the Shot and represented us in the '92 Olympics at a fairly young age, but he then concentrated entirely on Rugby.

Brendan Mullin held the record in the 110m Hurdles, but spent most of his adult sporting career scoring tries for Ireland.

.

i said the gaa not rugby by your logic its better to represent ireland in an individual rather than team sport????????

Sparks

Some kids will respond better in individual sports, some in team sports. Some in sports that emphasise developing strength, some speed, some control. You need to have all of them available at a very, very early age to let them find out what they like before they can choose which one(s) to continue with.
In Ireland right now, if they're lucky, that means a choice between GAA football, GAA hurling/camogie or (for the really lucky ones) GAA handball.
Archery, Shooting, other "minority sports", they're all unavailable to about 99.5% of Irish kids. And by the time people do encounter them (and find one they like and do well at), they're about ten to twenty years behind the people they'd be competing with internationally.

donegal11

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, that €2.2 million we spent on all the high performance grants this year (that's junior, developmental, international, world class and contracted, in all sports) was a total waste of money, obviously. I mean, it's not like money makes a difference, just look at Padraig Harrington. He's had to get by on miniscule amounts like the 5 million that's going in the upcoming New Orleans match...

padraig harrington gets no money from the sports council so i dont see your point he earns prizemoney which any professional can earn as a reward for their talent.if paul hession broke world records and won millions in prizemoney would you compare his winnings to an Athlete with little or no success.will money make an hard training athlete run any faster!NO

Amz

Even in the athletics clubs you rarely get anyone doing the field events. Especially pole vault/high jump.

I hate that the Olympics seems to allow all of the armchair experts and people with little or no sporting insight, to think that they can begrudge anyone who tries to carve a path for themselves in a particular sport. They neither contribute to any sports development nor have any interest in doing so, yet will bitch and moan every four years, or at every major tournament.

Sparks

donegal11 wrote: »

padraig harrington gets no money from the sports council

Isn't he getting a sports bursary shortly for a week's worth of teaching for €30k?
(That's €10k more than a year's funding on the World Class Athlete level carding grant).
And what about the Irish Sports Council Golf Trust which is for professional golfers who are just starting off? (Yes, Harrington got nothing from the current trust, but he did get money from an earlier incarnation of the same group).

i dont see your point

It's that articles like this one in the Times which compares Harrington's success to that of the athletes in Beijing and which wonders why we don't get as many medals as, say, Finland, are missing the vital thing that the athletes and sports in Beijing are missing - ie, funding.

will money make an hard training athlete run any faster!NO

No, it won't make them run faster, but it will pay for a track for them to run on or a gym to train in or biomechanics/video analysis to help them run faster;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them have an NGB that can actually coordinate the sport nationally or clubs that organise events locally so they can compete and thus train to run faster;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them get the personal equipment they need to run faster;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them eat at the end of the day's training and so they can run faster the next day;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them run and have a family and a home instead of living in a trailer and emerging after a decade with no qualifications and no savings and medals worth less than an average day's wages. So they're actually be able to choose to try to run faster.

donegal11

Sparks wrote: »

Isn't he getting a sports bursary shortly for a week's worth of teaching for €30k?
(That's €10k more than a year's funding on the World Class Athlete level carding grant)..

wrong he's not getting the bursary and the 30k will be divided "among" disadvantaged golfers not just one person http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/lost-letter-delays-civic-honour-for-harrington-1458013.html so i still dont get your point in comparing golfers earning and grants to athletes

Sparks wrote: »

It's that articles like this one in the Times which compares Harrington's success to that of the athletes in Beijing and which wonders why we don't get as many medals as, say, Finland, are missing the vital thing that the athletes and sports in Beijing are missing - ie, funding..

The article was more about golfers having more opportunities and being less nationalistic then athletes,which is very debatable.didnt see finland or funding noted anywhere

Sparks wrote: »

No, it won't make them run faster, but it will pay for a track for them to run on or a gym to train in or biomechanics/video analysis to help them run faster;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them have an NGB that can actually coordinate the sport nationally or clubs that organise events locally so they can compete and thus train to run faster;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them get the personal equipment they need to run faster;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them eat at the end of the day's training and so they can run faster the next day;
And it won't make them run faster, but it will let them run and have a family and a home instead of living in a trailer and emerging after a decade with no qualifications and no savings and medals worth less than an average day's wages. So they're actually be able to choose to try to run faster.

I agree that we should have a more development in sport and more funding should be provided at local level for young people to have more choices in sporting activities ie access to sporting facilities and equipment.but at what point does an irish athlete become an elilte athlete and deserve a "competitive salary" making a B standard.i dont think anyone started athletics to boost there savings and on qualifications the vast majority of irelands athletic team have received university scholarships whether in the us,uk or ireland

Pherekydes

donegal11 wrote: »

i said the gaa not rugby by your logic its better to represent ireland in an individual rather than team sport????????

Your point, broadly speaking was that team sports don't take talent away from individual sports, when, quite clearly, they do.

There are GAA playing examples, too, like the Hartigans back in the 70s.

Nolanger

There's more to the Olympics than athletics. What about sailing? We're surrounded by water yet can't win a medal.
What about horse events? There's great facilities here but we still can't (legally) win an Olympic medal.
It's not just lack of facilities - there's something else missing from most sports in Ireland that prevents our sports people from excelling.

Sparks

You're still missing the point donegal. Golf has facilities, funding (both through prize money and endorsements and so on at the high end; and the Irish Sports Council at the low end through the Golf Trust), media attention, and you can earn a living at it. In most of the olympic sports, that's not true - in this country. It is true in others.

End result is that in Golf in Ireland, and in Olympic sports in other nations, you get high-level athletes and lots of participation. In other Olympic sports in Ireland, you don't - you only get the really dedicated people, who would be bringing home huge numbers of medals if they were competing in Golf, or competing for someone else. But since they compete for Ireland, they have to stuggle through a lack of facilities, a lack of coaching, a lack of funding, a lack of media attention, and in some cases a lot of obstacles that noone else gets (like target shooters who are held back from starting training until about eight to ten years after all their international competitors have started).

Sparks

Nolanger wrote: »

There's more to the Olympics than athletics. What about sailing? We're surrounded by water yet can't win a medal.

In fairness, that's like saying that we have great horseriding facilities because we've lots of fields. You'd still need the horse...
And last I looked, sailing's NGB was one of the success stories, punching way above its weight internationally and well-organised domestically.

What about horse events? There's great facilities here but we still can't (legally) win an Olympic medal.

We already did before. Also, most of what you see in equestrian sport in Ireland is not in the olympic program.

It's not just lack of facilities - there's else missing from most sports in Ireland that prevents our competitors from excelling.

There are, but it's not really down to the competitors.

The simple fact is that in this country, we don't think much of sport. It's not a career we send our children into except in GAA, where it's not a career. In fact, we don't think of sport as a "proper" career at all. Nor is it a "proper" subject. We tend to think of fitness instructors or any of the other people who work in sports facilities and gyms as being somewhat lower down the social order, as folks who do their work "until something better comes along". Everything in this country to do with sport is taken on a half-assed basis. PE isn't a subject in schools, so we don't even get qualified people to teach it. And PE "teachers" are not generally regarded very highly even at that. Not until you get to be the Irish boxer bringing home an olympic medal, or a footballer on the Irish team (who still earns a living playing for an english club), or a rugby or GAA player for the county team, do you get any form of respect really.

Change that and you'd be solving a lot of the other problems.

eunified61

gixerfixer wrote: »

Couldnt agree more.Spent time living in the states and went to a baseball game.It was more exciting than hurling<<<<<says just how boring a sport it is.

easy girls, there is lots of room out there for all sports. As you can see from our friend he went to one game and he is an expert ,if he actually played it god only knows. The trouble is all you want is other people to put in all the work loose most of their youth in the lonely pursuit of perfection just to give you something to brag about when you " to the states to WATCH a baseball game". Not everyone can live up to your expectations or wants to.

moe_sizlak

we are a very parochial people in ireland , most people i know would much perfer see the parish win the junior title than sonia o sullivan win gold in the 5000 mtrs

10000maniacs

Michelle Smith was clean at the Atlanta Olympics and I still say congratulations for winning those four medals. Makes me proud to be Irish.
Whenever Michelle Smith is discussed on RTE, those absolute morons, Kimmage (Cycling failure) and (I forget that failed swimmers name) always seem to come out of the woodwork and smugly put her down.

mike65

Smith was a cheat, she just didn't test positive. As Gary O'Tool noted she kept going missing before the games (not attending competitions) so she didn't get tested beforehand so by Atlanta she has changed into a "Mini Miss-Arnie" of muscle.

Mike.

10000maniacs

mike65 wrote: »

Gary O'Tool

Thats the swimming failure I was trying to remember.

thirdmantackle

Dr O'Toole to you...

he competed at the Olympics while doing his full time studies
and still holds a few Irish records

I think he knows what he's talking about

the reason the horse jumpers don't do very well is that we have no good horses left in Ireland - all the good breeds and bloodlines in showjumping were bought out by europeans in the last 15-20 years

the sailing is poor as really there are only a few sailing clubs which can be very elitist in terms of access. if you can't afford it, tough. no sailing clubs on the entire west coast really!!

shooting - very few shooting clubs for younger people - none i know of.