I broke the law for the sake of ethics

cormie

So on a job the other day, I was helping to relocate a shop in Blackrock, Co. Dublin. I was warned there would be a lot of awkward/fragile/heavy things to go into my van and because the closest parking space I could find was a good 100 metres away, I decided it would be best to park up on the path with my back doors right next to the door of the shop we were taking everything from. Here's a lil pic to show:



So as you see, the path gets much wider just beside the shop door so my van was able to fit perfectly and before I turned my engine off, I got out to make sure there was enough room for buggies/wheelchairs etc to get by safely, and there was more than enough.

Anyway, I started bringing things out and when I came out, a pedestrian asked "Is that your van" and I said "yup" and before I asked why he told me I was getting a ticket so I saw a lady in a brown uniform (the Garda wardens) writing a ticket and I told her it's my van and she said she's giving me a ticket, that I can't park here and I said it's the safest place and she said you can't park on a footpath and disputed it being safe. The whole time she wouldn't even look at me when she was talking. So I hopped in and moved before she was finished (although she had put the little slip of paper under my wiper) and I parked it way up the road on the opposite side of the shop.

Had a van load of things to put in and now I had to carry them through pedestrians and cross a busy road putting myself and others at danger (well, more danger than if I had stayed where I was). I got the fine through the post and I'm thinking of appealing it. I know what I did was technically illegal but it was surely the most sensible place to park. There was plenty of room and I wasn't obstructing anything at all.

Anyone agree or am I going to hell for this hideous crime? :pac:

Anan1

From what you say, it sounds as though i'd have parked there too. Better pay the fine, though.:)

ytareh

Seems ok from your diagram (if ya loose the licence with the points a career in design or engineering etc awaits ya !)Of course the letter of the law is far more important to so many ...Id be doin some muttering and cursing as I was crossing the road struggling with my heavy deliveries...

cormie

I've appealed a parking fine before and won (should have seen the letter I sent :pac:) but that was with the council and not the Garda so I wonder would a letter be enough or would they be expecting me to show up in court and could I get the fine doubled? It's only €40, but I'm a man of principal.

audismelly

pay the fine:mad:
<massive SNIP>... so sorry bout the rant

MODEDIT:
You'd better be sorry for that rant ...in very bad taste and language ...and textspeak too
consider yourself warned

but safer to pay .
im not bitter:mad:

staker

I'd appeal it OP.
In all fairness you took good care in ensuring that pedestrian traffic wasn't being unduly hindered while you went safely about your job.
A few traffic cones would've helped maybe but surely the pen pushers aren't that blind that they can't see the practicality of the whole situation.
Let us know how you get on...

Guy:Incognito

audismelly wrote: »

the <SNIP> got me once 2. put it in a car park on yellow lines :

Your exactly the person that needs to be fined more. Theres nothing asd annoying as the "I'm only nipping in for a minute so im allowed to park on double yellows" brigade and having to navigate around said people. Everyone whinges about Taxi drivers pulling in randomly but will see no problem when it's them stopping on a double yellow (I hate both equally, I dont discriminate). If there was supposed to be parkign spots there then there wouldnt be double yellow lines.


Oh and your hazards dont mean anything, they certainly dont allow you to park illegally.

staker wrote: »

I'd appeal it OP.
In all fairness you took good care in ensuring that pedestrian traffic wasn't being unduly hindered while you went safely about your job.
A few traffic cones would've helped maybe but surely the pen pushers aren't that blind that they can't see the practicality of the whole situation.
Let us know how you get on...

The problem with letting people park on paths is that it spreads like a disease. You'd be surprise how quickly that spot Cormie pulled up into on the path could turn into an unnoficial loading bay or parkign spot. Fairly soon anyone dropping off stuff to that shop would start pulling up there or people like audismelly will see someone else doing it and think its fair game.

At the end of the day it was illegally parked, I dont see grounds for it to be appealed. If somehting was borderline or plainy worng in getting fined then fair enough but parkign on a path is a black and white no no.

ninty9er

There's a space "on the path" outside our office where 3 guys in the workshop nextdoor park. They've never been ticketed, because AFAIK it's private property, same applies to the rear of Brown Thomas in Limerick, it owns 4-5 feet of the footpath. Check the plans to see if the path is owned by the shop and go to court if it is.

mozil

probably better off taking the fine, at the end of the day you were ilegally parked so you get a judge in a bad mood and your fine is doubled

audismelly

Stekelly wrote: »

Your exactly the person that needs to be fined more. Theres nothing asd annoying as the "I'm only nipping in for a minute so im allowed to park on double yellows" brigade and having to navigate around said people. Everyone whinges about Taxi drivers pulling in randomly but will see no problem when it's them stopping on a double yellow (I hate both equally, I dont discriminate). If there was supposed to be parkign spots there then there wouldnt be double yellow lines.


Oh and your hazards dont mean anything, they certainly dont allow you to park illegally.

to be fair i didnt do it before or since mr judgemental and nobody had to navigate anywhere.
guess were just not used to the law been implemented in the midlands:D

cormie

ninty9er wrote: »

There's a space "on the path" outside our office where 3 guys in the workshop nextdoor park. They've never been ticketed, because AFAIK it's private property, same applies to the rear of Brown Thomas in Limerick, it owns 4-5 feet of the footpath. Check the plans to see if the path is owned by the shop and go to court if it is.

Nice, where could I see such plans?

ninty9er

cormie wrote: »

Nice, where could I see such plans?

Should be available at the relevant local authority office. The building owner might even know.

VH

in fairness any blind people living in the area and used to that footpath would have been caught unawares and could have been hurt - a bit like the advertising signs erected recently by jc deveraux.

you didn't commit a serious crime but you didn't consider the blind

Guy:Incognito

Is the line on the inside of your van another shop?

cormie

Stekelly wrote: »

Is the line on the inside of your van another shop?

yup, with enough room for pedestrians there too.

Guy:Incognito

cormie wrote: »

yup, with enough room for pedestrians there too.

Well if thats a shop you can probably forget the path belonging to the shop you were in. Even if it's not public land it would be more likely to belong to the other shop anyway, no?

ninty9er

Stekelly wrote: »

Well if thats a shop you can probably forget the path belonging to the shop you were in. Even if it's not public land it would be more likely to belong to the other shop anyway, no?

That would still get him off the hook, once it's not public property.

peasant

I broke the law for the sake of ethics

You broke the law for convenience ...and maybe safety

A traffic warden with some cop-on would have given you leeway, unfortunately those are a rare breed. Just pay the fine (and calculate it into your next job quotation )

ninty9er

peasant wrote: »

A traffic warden with some cop-on would have given you leeway, unfortunately those are a rare breed never existed.

There fixed that:pac::pac:

Steve

ninty9er wrote: »

There's a space "on the path" outside our office where 3 guys in the workshop nextdoor park. They've never been ticketed, because AFAIK it's private property, same applies to the rear of Brown Thomas in Limerick, it owns 4-5 feet of the footpath. Check the plans to see if the path is owned by the shop and go to court if it is.

True - my father owned a shop in Camden st. many years ago and parked in front of it in the morning till the bus lane expired. Was ticketed several times and it was always thrown out because he owned the space in front.

cormie wrote: »

Nice, where could I see such plans?

Ask the owner of wherever you parked it if it's private property

Guy:Incognito

SteveC wrote: »

True - my father owned a shop in Camden st. many years ago and parked in front of it in the morning till the bus lane expired. Was ticketed several times and it was always thrown out because he owned the space in front.

How did he own the space when it wasnt a bus lane but not when it was? If he owns it he owns it and why did they build a bus lane on his land?

brianthebard

Just read the op again-what ethics were you upholding exactly?

Guy:Incognito

brianthebard wrote: »

Just read the op again-what ethics were you upholding exactly?

The ones that make it easier for him to do his job and pass off law breaking.

OK-Cancel-Apply

I live in Blackrock - the paths on the main street are narrow. Was there enough room for a buggy+parent? Or double buggy? A few years ago, my sister had a double buggy for her wee lads, and ALL the time (almost daily) she used to find vans parked up on the path, forcing her onto the road and into a dangerous situation. That and big lorries stopping at lights right over a pedestrian crossing. She gave a couple of them a bollocking over it (when they'd actually be near their vans), and they had no defence.

Steve

Stekelly wrote: »

How did he own the space when it wasnt a bus lane but not when it was? If he owns it he owns it and why did they build a bus lane on his land?

He owned the space in front of the shop - 5 feet of pavement where the basement access used to be but was converted - not part of the road. He parked there until 10 when the bus lane became inactive and became available to park on.
Very similar to Cormies diagram.

cormie

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I live in Blackrock - the paths on the main street are narrow. Was there enough room for a buggy+parent? Or double buggy? A few years ago, my sister had a double buggy for her wee lads, and ALL the time (almost daily) she used to find vans parked up on the path, forcing her onto the road and into a dangerous situation. That and big lorries stopping at lights right over a pedestrian crossing. She gave a couple of them a bollocking over it (when they'd actually be near their vans), and they had no defence.

Yup, definitely enough room for a double buggy too. Where I was, there is actually a railing that comes down in front of my van, and the space between the end of the railing and the side of the path, was less than the side of my van and the side of the path if you get me.

Brian, the ethics that I believed it was safer to park on the path then to play pedestrian dodging while carrying large, awkward, fragile items to my van across the road :P

ninty9er

cormie wrote: »

Yup, definitely enough room for a double buggy too. Where I was, there is actually a railing that comes down in front of my van, and the space between the end of the railing and the side of the path, was less than the side of my van and the side of the path if you get me.

Brian, the ethics that I believed it was safer to park on the path then to play pedestrian dodging while carrying large, awkward, fragile items to my van across the road :P

Sounds like private property so...If you mean there's a railing running along the side of your van

CivilServant

Ethics me ar$e

brianthebard

cormie wrote: »

Brian, the ethics that I believed it was safer to park on the path then to play pedestrian dodging while carrying large, awkward, fragile items to my van across the road :P

how long have you been driving your van now?Should've parked properly and taken the extra time needed to do the job right tbh.Vans dont belong on the pavement.

Guy:Incognito

CivilServant wrote: »

Ethics me ar$e

In fairness to Cormie, Ethics is easier to spell than convenience.:)

peasant

Stekelly wrote: »

In fairness to Cormie, Ethics is easier to spell than convenience.:)

...and more convenient too

TheNog

cormie wrote: »

a lady in a brown uniform (the Garda wardens)

the lady was a Traffic Warden employed by the local council. Nothing to do with the Gardai

cormie

CivilServant wrote: »

Ethics me ar$e

eth·ic Audio Help (ěth'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
n.

1.
1. A set of principles of right conduct.
2. A theory or a system of moral values: "An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain" (Gregg Easterbrook).


I believe it was "right conduct" to park in this spot. It may not be the most philosophical use of the word ethics, but ethics it is

brianthebard wrote: »

how long have you been driving your van now?Should've parked properly and taken the extra time needed to do the job right tbh.Vans dont belong on the pavement.

I parked properly, it just so happened to be on the footpath, which is defined as illegal by the book of the law. I did the job right and wasn't under any time pressure, had enough time for a conversation about traffic wardens with the guy I was delivering to and everything I was causing more of an obstruction where I parked legally.

TheNog wrote: »

the lady was a Traffic Warden employed by the local council. Nothing to do with the Gardai

I read before that the wardens in brown uniforms are part of the Gardai, those in red and navy (in the Blackrock area) are part of the council. The slip of paper I got on the windscreen had the Garda crest, and the fine was from the Gardai, nothing about the council was mentioned anywhere. As I said, I read before, what I read could have been wrong or it could have been right, I don't know

brianthebard

You can't be parked properly and be on the footpath.You fail at both ethics and parking tbh.

Seth Brundle

In fairness, its illegal to park on a public footpath (unless it part of private property). You (presumably) knew the legal risks so take the punishmnet!

cormie

brianthebard wrote: »

You can't be parked properly and be on the footpath.You fail at both ethics and parking tbh.

If it turns out the part of the foothpath was indeed private property, will you then change your opinion to agree with the law?

kbannon wrote: »

In fairness, its illegal to park on a public footpath (unless it part of private property). You (presumably) knew the legal risks so take the punishmnet!

Yup, but I disagree with the law in this circumstance as there is no negative effect of me parking there. There are more negative attributes to where I parked legally. The law is there to protect people, in this case, breaking the law was better.

(in my opinion )

Seth Brundle

cormie wrote: »

(in my opinion )

Thats the crux of it!

Agent Smith

I would be Interested to Hear if you do appeal this. Straight off, i'd say "pay the fine" but you could Argue that due to the time of day/location, this was the safest place to park.
I know the area pretty well, and am 99% sure of the exact location where you were parked.

If you dont mind me asking, how much was the fine? If it was like 30 - 50 euro. just pay it. if it was more, i'd be inclined to appeal it.

cormie

kbannon wrote: »

Thats the crux of it!

Aye, but so far the majority of feedback I've gotten in this thread seems to be of the same opinion. Nobody seemed to have a problem when I parked there besides the warden, the man who informed me did so out of goodwill and not in a "haha you deserve it you little f**ker" way :pac: The shop I parked in front of didn't have a problem, the shop owner I was helping move thought it was great I parked there, the man pushing the buggy smiled as I edged further in, the birds sang, the sun was shining, children playing marbles and cooling themselves with the water hydrant. Oh t'was a fine day...

cormie

Agent Smith wrote: »

I would be Interested to Hear if you do appeal this. Straight off, i'd say "pay the fine" but you could Argue that due to the time of day/location, this was the safest place to park.
I know the area pretty well, and am 99% sure of the exact location where you were parked.

If you dont mind me asking, how much was the fine? If it was like 30 - 50 euro. just pay it. if it was more, i'd be inclined to appeal it.

It was only €40 which was nice to see. In the time it's taken to make this thread, in the time it will take to write a letter, the time it will take to possibly follow it up, I could have made a lot more than €40 with that time, but it's out of principal really

Seth Brundle

cormie wrote: »

Aye, but so far the majority of feedback I've gotten in this thread seems to be of the same opinion. Nobody seemed to have a problem when I parked there besides the warden, the man who informed me did so out of goodwill and not in a "haha you deserve it you little f**ker" way :pac: The shop I parked in front of didn't have a problem, the shop owner I was helping move thought it was great I parked there, the man pushing the buggy smiled as I edged further in, the birds sang, the sun was shining, children playing marbles and cooling themselves with the water hydrant. Oh t'was a fine day...

LOL
Whilst that all may be true, the warden fined you as per the law so there really isn't much you can do about as far as I can see.

Guy:Incognito

cormie wrote: »

Aye, but so far the majority of feedback I've gotten in this thread seems to be of the same opinion. ...

Thats because the majority of people like to think the can stick it to the man and be a rebel with lesser laws.

cormie wrote: »

The shop I parked in front of didn't have a problem,

Of course they didnt, I doubt they would care if you had parked on a homeless man to get what they needed done quicker. I'd love ot be able to park on the street in the middle of town for convenience, wouldnt make it right.

aingeal_croi

its not as though you arrogantly broke the rules around this you thoroghly thought out the best way to be safe for everyone...I dont believe the fine would stand up.

some people will not be reasonable and will jump at the chance to exert authority...good luck with this one keep us posted!!

Guy:Incognito

aingeal_croi wrote: »

its not as though you arrogantly broke the rules around this you thoroghly thought out the best way to be safe for everyone...I dont believe the fine would stand up.

!!

So your allowed to break the law as long as you tell the judge you werent arrogantly doing it and you tell him you thought it was the best thing to do?

cormie

Stekelly wrote: »

Of course they didnt, I doubt they would care if you had parked on a homeless man to get what they needed done quicker. I'd love ot be able to park on the street in the middle of town for convenience, wouldnt make it right.

I meant the other shop, not the one I was doing the job for

I'm not denying it was more convenient, it certainly was, as was it safer, less obstructive etc too, which is why I did it.

What's the maximum penalty I can get if the judge doesn't share my opinion does anyone know? Just the fine doubled or could it be more?

Dave147

peasant wrote: »

You broke the law for convenience ...and maybe safety

A traffic warden with some cop-on would have given you leeway, unfortunately those are a rare breed. Just pay the fine (and calculate it into your next job quotation )

Haha, I agree :P
OP you're dead right doing what you did, I would do the exact same thing, it's unfortunate that some traffic wardens don't have any cop on.. I would also imagine blind people don't walk around without some sort of cane or guide dog. I'm sure they'd find a way around this inconvenience.

RoseBlossom

Has anyone seen the cars parked on the footpath in front of the Garda offices on Harcourt Street? (Luas goes past them.)

Maybe I'm missing some sign saying the raised, paved area beside the parking bays is actually a formal extension of them? It would be a brave traffic warden to challenge them I'd say!

Del2005

cormie wrote: »

So on a job the other day, I was helping to relocate a shop in Blackrock, Co. Dublin. I was warned there would be a lot of awkward/fragile/heavy things to go into my van and because the closest parking space I could find was a good 100 metres away, I decided it would be best to park up on the path with my back doors right next to the door of the shop we were taking everything from. Here's a lil pic to show:



So as you see, the path gets much wider just beside the shop door so my van was able to fit perfectly and before I turned my engine off, I got out to make sure there was enough room for buggies/wheelchairs etc to get by safely, and there was more than enough.

Anyway, I started bringing things out and when I came out, a pedestrian asked "Is that your van" and I said "yup" and before I asked why he told me I was getting a ticket so I saw a lady in a brown uniform (the Garda wardens) writing a ticket and I told her it's my van and she said she's giving me a ticket, that I can't park here and I said it's the safest place and she said you can't park on a footpath and disputed it being safe. The whole time she wouldn't even look at me when she was talking. So I hopped in and moved before she was finished (although she had put the little slip of paper under my wiper) and I parked it way up the road on the opposite side of the shop.

Had a van load of things to put in and now I had to carry them through pedestrians and cross a busy road putting myself and others at danger (well, more danger than if I had stayed where I was). I got the fine through the post and I'm thinking of appealing it. I know what I did was technically illegal but it was surely the most sensible place to park. There was plenty of room and I wasn't obstructing anything at all.

Anyone agree or am I going to hell for this hideous crime? :pac:

Why did you bother moving it after you'd been fined? You knew it was illeagal and made a call for convience and safety to park there. When you got the ticket you should have left it there instead of moving and having to haul all the stuff for miles.

I'd chance my arm and appeal. Do you have to pay the fine to appeal or can you appeal before paying?

maidhc

mozil wrote: »

probably better off taking the fine, at the end of the day you were ilegally parked so you get a judge in a bad mood and your fine is doubled

I have never come across a parking fine being doubled when it comes to court. Often the fine imposed by the judge is less than the fine originally was, if the defendant pleads guilty and gives a bit a story all that is often administered is a slap on the wrist.

You can also appeal to the Super in the station where the garda is based. This takes place long before the matter gets as far as court and is pretty informal, you just write a letter explaining the situation.

brianthebard

cormie wrote: »

If it turns out the part of the foothpath was indeed private property, will you then change your opinion to agree with the law?

why would i,when you didnt and still dont know if it was or not,and you never asked the adjacent shopkeepers?You're just clutching at straws to justify what you believe was a good parking spot,but almost certainly wasnt.And fwiw i dont have a thing against you or van drivers,my da's a delivery man and often has to park in places that don't suit but thats just the way things are,deal with it.

superjosh9

OP - if its any consolation, a know someone who owns a shop in town, and they can't get any deliveries in or out, given how the street they are on has been altered so much. In addition, they can barely get their rubbish collected and are fined massively if it isn't.

A lot of morans who don't think are in charge - I know I keep going on about this - but why do we have a lawyer as the minister for finance????

Anyway, by all means try to find out informally if it's worth it, but I reckon you'd be best off paying the fine. Remember the way the traffic warden was when you were trying to explain your case? You'll prob get the same reaction - but the only difference being that you are talking to someone sitting behind a desk. It's very hard to deal with these people. Best of luck either way.