Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

odin_ie

First time poster in this section, but have read for a while, I also have some Jiu Jitsu experience, but havent trained in a while.

So I have been reading about the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, which I randomly came upon on Wikipedia one day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program). It sounds like an interesting concept, and sounds a little more comprehensive than Krav Maga. What I am wondering is if anybody here has trained in it, and if they have, is there anybody teaching it in Ireland?

Cheers,

Odin

westhamutd

HI


I was in US in may and on a training course with 7 recon Marines I asked them about this system they had not trained in it and one guy said he had heard it was good at higher levels but they wanted to train in KM or combatives , i was talking to them about some of the UK guys that I had heard about, they were very intrested in them and asked if they could hire them for training , I told them to contact them directly as i did'nt know them personaly. They were really nice guys and all they did was train when they finished with Us they were off to to do mountian training.

Tks westhamand sorry about the spelling in hurry

Baggio...

I can only comment what I saw recently on the Discovery channel re. the latest Marine H2H stuff. I can't say I thought it was anything special. In fact, it seems in part anyway, to have gone back to some "Martial Arts" type concepts. Such as "specific defenses" and "blocking" against certain attacks - which I'm not personally a big fan of, as I don't believe they will work under duress.

But what I did like was their pressure testing... It was very very intensive. I also liked their little surprises that seemed came out of nowhere. Just when the Marines thought that they were finished the exercise - something unexpected would happen. Such as an armed attack, or fending off multiple opponents, etc..

Dave Joyce

What I am wondering is if anybody here has trained in it, and if they have, is there anybody teaching it in Ireland?

Haven't seen it or tbh heard of it until now. However, did meet a guy in Fort Bragg two years ago who designed a programme for the Marines called the Line Method (or something:o) but wasn't very impressed with it. Felt it was just like what Rob was saying about things taking a step backwards.

Boru.

I've had the privelege of training with some Marines, and in talking to them, hand to hand is, as with the majority of military based combat systems, not a practical reality. It is a useful thing to study, keeps them active and trains fight instinct, but I have yet to meet a single soldier that has used hand to hand combat in his professional tour duties. Many of them have used such things outside of their profession, in the police force, dignatory protection etc, but none, again in my experience, have used it in the field during war. Why? Becasue it's a non issue.

Every Marine I have met has, in his professional capacity been armed. Well armed. And if you have an Armalite M16 assualt rifle and secondary side arm, say an automatic pistol, why would you EVER be in a situation that requires hand to hand conflict? Hand to hand doesn't come up becasue they can shoot a target from quite a distance. And if thier primary jams, they'll shoot you with their secondary. In military terms - hand to hand combat is unrealistic.

Of course the question is then why do the military engage in teaching such methods? Simple, mindset and fitness. It's a lot more fun than running and teaches an aggressive mindset. Hence it is more martial art than reality based combat.

I would also point out that the Black Belt level of the program requires "71.5 hours of supervised training", about a week and a half of solid training. In contrast to this the Level 2 requirement for a decent Reality Based program would be over 80 hours. This isn't a factor against the training method, I firmly beleive that self defence can be taught in hours and a good level of proficency attained in that, as oppposed to the years spent stufying a martial art. It seems that the US military agrees with me.

Tim_Murphy

Hi Boru,

This is off topic so maybe you'd prefer to PM me but I was looking at your 7 Seconds to A Perfect Body link. You say this is your 'scientifically proven method', could you expand on how it was scientifically evaluated?

Sorry to the OP, this is off topic but I say the link and was curious.

Boru.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Hi Boru,

This is off topic so maybe you'd prefer to PM me but I was looking at your 7 Seconds to A Perfect Body link. You say this is your 'scientifically proven method', could you expand on how it was scientifically evaluated?

Sorry to the OP, this is off topic but I say the link and was curious.

It is off topic, and I try not to talk about my business on the forums, but I'll breifly answer it here. If you want more details on it, feel free to pm me or contact me through my website. If mod's feel my reply is inappropriate please remove it.

The techniques, methods and exercsies that my program consists of have been rigourous studied with published reports and documentation appearing as early as 1925. Since then the techniques and exercsies I teach, have been analysed and tested in over 5,000 independantly conducted trials and studies and have conclusively been shown to improve strength by 5-15% per workout. The method I teach has been scientifically proven and the results verified. A detailed history is provided in the book, along with supporting documentation and copies of the original studies in the accompanying journal the Physiology of Strength. Furthermore I am currently involved with several experts in the field of human physiology and strength including Former Olympic Coach, Atheltic TRainer and Physical Therapist for NFL, MLB, and College Division II, noted Exercise Physiologist PhD Dr. Dodson which is producing even more incredible research results. All my claims and methods can be backed and supported by multiple studies, reports and scientific and medical journals, as well as the resutls of my many clients as can be seen on the website.

Dave Joyce

In military terms - hand to hand combat is unrealistic.

While I would agree with the above, it would depend on whether your definition of hand to hand means "empty hand" or if the definition includes the use of other field weapons. The reason I make this point is that I have found the guys I worked with in Sayoc and Atienza Tactical training (ie SEALS, Green Berets and some Airborne guys in Fort Bragg) were VERY interested in MANY types of field weapons not only for their possible deployment but the fact that these weapons could be used against them and wanted to understand how they could be used in skilled hands.

Secondly there ARE times when lethal force is not an option. I have a friend in the Green Berets who was explaining that while on deployment in Afganistan fairly recently, it was not unusual in crowded markets for some guy to just suddenly grab the mussel of their primary and pulling out your secondary and shooting the guy is NOT a way of dealing with the situation.

Finally, depending on where in the world the operative is deployed can also be more relevant, ie use of machetes etc.

Boru.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

While I would agree with the above, it would depend on whether your definition of hand to hand means "empty hand" or if the definition includes the use of other field weapons. The reason I make this point is that I have found the guys I worked with in Sayoc and Atienza Tactical training (ie SEALS, Green Berets and some Airborne guys in Fort Bragg) were VERY interested in MANY types of field weapons not only for their possible deployment but the fact that these weapons could be used against them and wanted to understand how they could be used in skilled hands.

Secondly there ARE times when lethal force is not an option. I have a friend in the Green Berets who was explaining that while on deployment in Afganistan fairly recently, it was not unusual in crowded markets for some guy to just suddenly grab the mussel of their primary and pulling out your secondary and shooting the guy is NOT a way of dealing with the situation.

Finally, depending on where in the world the operative is deployed can also be more relevant, ie use of machetes etc.

Great addition Dave. I'd agree with that completely.

Roper

But if it's all about grabbing muzzles and primary and secondary weaponry, it begs the question- why learn it in Ireland? By the same token, should a person who wants to learn self defence also learn how to call in an air strike from F16s?

Odysseus

Roper wrote: »

But if it's all about grabbing muzzles and primary and secondary weaponry, it begs the question- why learn it in Ireland? By the same token, should a person who wants to learn self defence also learn how to call in an air strike from F16s?

I would say its totally inapporpriate to learn such skills unless you have good quality air support when you out and about. Otherwise what the point.

Dave Joyce

But if it's all about grabbing muzzles and primary and secondary weaponry, it begs the question- why learn it in Ireland?

You're a funny guy Roper:rolleyes:, as you have often said in other threads, if the Thread doesn't interest you, then don't bother with it. Pity you wouldn't heed your own words or do you feel you have to tell us all what we should and shouldn't do and what we should and shouldn't write.

Baggio...

Dave Joyce wrote: »

You're a funny guy Roper:rolleyes:, as you have often said in other threads, if the Thread doesn't interest you, then don't bother with it. Pity you wouldn't heed your own words or do you feel you have to tell us all what we should and shouldn't do and what we should and shouldn't write.

Great post Dave.

Baggio...

Also, what happened to the new forum rules where people would stop taking the piss if a topic didn't interest them?

Roper

Dave Joyce wrote: »

You're a funny guy Roper:rolleyes:, as you have often said in other threads, if the Thread doesn't interest you, then don't bother with it. Pity you wouldn't heed your own words or do you feel you have to tell us all what we should and shouldn't do and what we should and shouldn't write.

Actually I was being serious. I'm genuinely interested in why people would think that something designed for one set of circumstances (firearms based military combat) would have any relevance in Ireland, drug related crime aside. The air support thing was a genuine attempt to make my point. Sorry if it sounded funny I suppose I'm just a funny guy.

I have an acquaintance who spent 7 years in the British military, and his (to paraphrase him) "most useful" training consisted of firing round after round after round on the firing range. He served in Afghanistan and said he never saw anyone who tried to kill him, they were always a few hundred yards away.

Maybe people don't post on these threads because they think they'll have the piss pulled out of them, and maybe other people don't post on these threads because they think that every genuine question will be met with the persecution complex.

Odysseus

Baggio... wrote: »

Also, what happened to the new forum rules where people would stop taking the piss if a topic didn't interest them?

Hi Rob,

I was taking the piss a tad too, just saw Roper's post and couldn't resist. I personally have no problems with people learning whatever they want I think you know me well to know that.

On a personal level I think the legal position on self defense weapons on here is flawed, its only the law abiding citizens who take cognisance. Most of the clients I work with carry some type of weapon, usually cheap and nasty= box-cutters, screwdiver etc, sometime a tad most interesting. So in my opinion, do whatever type of training your interested in, if it includes weapons good, because I think it develop a respectful mindset towards weapons.

So at the end of the day I don't post here much so I'm claiming ignorance on the new rule:cool: However I'm aware of it now.

Boru.

I can't believe I am about too type this, but....I agree with Roper, he has a very valid point. I don't think it's realistic to learn to engage someone that is grabbing your assualt rifle, unless of course your daily life involves the possability of someone grabbing said assault rifle.

That is not to say however that self defence training is unrealistic. It's not, and as anyone on here knows, I whole heartedly endorse reality based training, given that I am an instructor myself.

My problem, is as Roper, perhaps clumsily pointed, out is UNREALISTIC self defence training.

In daily life - it is unlikely, but possible I may be physically assualted. Thus it makes sense to realisticsally train against this in my opinion. It is highly unlikely that I will be assaulted with a blade or knife of any kind, but it is a valid possability in Dublin certainly. I may be assaulted with a firearm, though that is very very very unlikely, but still, in Dublin it is a possability. As such I will train for that.

I have never read, nor heard of anyone in the history of this country, being attacked in close quaters while he stolled down the street with an M16. It doesn't happen. (With the exception of an Airsoft rifle - even still NOT hand to hand engagement here). Thus it is not realistic and I don't train for it.

I will train military units, if that is a possability, but it isn't here.

And again I have to agree with Roper, in speaking with ANY military soldier I have met, the most useful and applicable skill they train in is the use of thier guns. (With the exception of the Irish Army, most tell me it's driving skill that matters most).

Baggio...

Odysseus wrote: »

I was taking the piss a tad too, just saw Roper's post and couldn't resist.

Hey Seamus,

How's things? I hope all is well?

Yeah, I know the score - I was just talking about Roper's usual snide comments.;)

Rob.

Nothingcompares

i say ban that roper fella nothing but a smart alec.

Odysseus

I have been coming here for a few years now, and have always tried to avoid taking the piss out of a poster because thats who I'm. Now after year of watching posters been ripped apart I do it once and discover there are new rules. Foul I cry Foul.

Baggio...

Odysseus wrote: »

So in my opinion, do whatever type of training your interested in, if it includes weapons good, because I think it develop a respectful mindset towards weapons.

Totally agree with you there...

Odysseus

Baggio... wrote: »

Totally agree with you there...

I stil cry foul mate:)

Baggio...

Odysseus wrote: »

I stil cry foul mate:)

ye' got me...

Baggio...

Hey Dave,

Speaking of Special Ops. training....

I know you're into Syoc. I was just wondering if you've seen much of a guy called Tom Kier? Lee showed me some of his work a while ago. Absolutely stunning! Some of the most functional knife work I've ever seen. Unbelievably fast bloke too.

Apparently he's trained quite a few Spec. Ops. units.

Cheers,

Rob.

pearsquasher

If you all take a look at the Marine Corps own web page http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/tbs/Pages/MA/default.shtml and are able to read between the lines of the FAQ you'd see all questions can easily be addressed. For example, this bit....

2. What does this program hope to accomplish?

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program builds upon the success of the transformation and “Crucible” at recruit training and will produce a successful and ethical Marine warrior who has developed “integrity” of self, and who is the successful union of mind, body, and spirit (character). Marine Corps Martial Arts Program will produce a society of ethical warriors whose integration of self extends beyond themselves to the unit, the Marine Corps,
and the nation as a whole.

.... mentions some important points.
"Build upon"... i.e. some sort of military training is already required.
"Integrity"......something martial arts are known to instill across the board by virtue of the nature of training.
"spirit(character)"....important if you're eating sand with incoming RPG's and wounded comrades all around.

Aside form the patriotic rhetoric, which is fair enough in a nations fighting forces web-site, I think the program sounds very reasonable. The only question would be would it be reasonable to train it here as a civilian? Of course not although in theory I suppose it could be adapted for civilian use as has happened with Krav Maga, Systema etc

Roper

I feel vindicated. And from the most unlikely of sources too. Only that Nothingcompares guy called for a ban.

I mailed my mate who was in the British Army to try to get him to post on here about his h2h training and I got a reply which is absolutely un-postable here. I'm tempted to post it but I think I'll leave it cos if people are getting offended by the little thing I said. They'll REALLY be offended by what he said.

Baggio...

Roper wrote: »

I'm tempted to post it but I think I'll leave it cos if people are getting offended by the little thing I said. They'll REALLY be offended by what he said.

Have it.... Seen it.... No big deal.:)

Roper

Baggio... wrote: »

Have it.... Seen it.... No big deal.:)

How would you have seen it it's in my gmail inbox?

Baggio...

As well as a GD - I'm a remote viewer and a psychic.

All the spoons are bent in my house though....

Roper

Baggio... wrote: »

As well as a GD - I'm a remote viewer and a psychic.

All the spoons are bent in my house though....

You're taking the mickey now I ought to have you banned.

Baggio...

Roper wrote: »

You're taking the mickey now I ought to have you banned.

Please do...

Dragan

Baggio and Dave Joyce,

if you have an issue with a post then please either report it or drop myself or Colm a pm. It's not always possible to keep an eye on things post for post.:)

Cheers!

P.S - There doesn't appear to have been any harm done here, i assume the calls for various bans etc are all piss takes.

Or at least i would hope so.

Baggio...

Thanks Dragon - will do.

Yeah, I was just messing around with the banning stuff.


So back to the topic anyone?

Roper

No I really want him banned for flagrant use of the word "the".

Tim_Murphy

The techniques, methods and exercsies that my program consists of have been rigourous studied with published reports and documentation appearing as early as 1925. Since then the techniques and exercsies I teach, have been analysed and tested in over 5,000 independantly conducted trials and studies and have conclusively been shown to improve strength by 5-15% per workout. The method I teach has been scientifically proven and the results verified. A detailed history is provided in the book, along with supporting documentation and copies of the original studies in the accompanying journal the Physiology of Strength. Furthermore I am currently involved with several experts in the field of human physiology and strength including Former Olympic Coach, Atheltic TRainer and Physical Therapist for NFL, MLB, and College Division II, noted Exercise Physiologist PhD Dr. Dodson which is producing even more incredible research results. All my claims and methods can be backed and supported by multiple studies, reports and scientific and medical journals, as well as the resutls of my many clients as can be seen on the website.

Wow, training that can improve strength by 15% per workout? I've never heard of such a thing, that's incredible. Is this the same workout that only takes 7 seconds? Can you reference some of these studies and journal papers you're referring to? I looked on the site but all I could see were claims of scientific studies etc, no actuall details. Perhaps I missed them.

Baggio...

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Can you reference some of these studies and journal papers you're referring to? I looked on the site but all I could see were claims of scientific studies etc, no actuall details. Perhaps I missed them.

Hi Paul,

Actually, I'd love to see some of the scientific studies too - if possible.

Cheers,

R.

ryoishin

Hey Baggio, Have to got a links/clips of the knife defence you were talking about.

Theres a military combatives board on www.e-budo.com with a few army head discussing stuff. They all see to have had different basic training from judo to boxing to so self defence depending on the unit or whatever.

Boru.

Guys, I don't want to pimp my products here on the fourm, it's completely off topic. Pm your email address and I'll send you a big long list of the studies.

Baggio...

No worries... You've got my email addy. Be cool to see that info.

Cheers,

R.

PS - you could always start a new thread. And it wouldn't really be pimping as you've had a few questions regarding it. Plus, it might b good for any Martial Artists who are interested in that type of training.

Baggio...

ryoishin wrote: »

Hey Baggio, Have to got a links/clips of the knife defence you were talking about.

Sorry I missed this...:o

Do you mean the Tom Kier stuff I was talking about? I've only ever seen one of his DVDs. And I thought it was very cool.

I found this bit of blurb about him. I'll see if I can dig out a few clips.

"Thomas Kier is the director of Sayoc Tactical and co- founder of Defensive Systems Institute and has instructed members of military special operations groups including Navy SEALs, law enforcement elite tactical response officers and defensive instructors."


Hmm.... Just looking around, can't find anything other than the clips of the film "the Hunted" (he did the choreography). So it looks a bit flashy. However the stuff I saw on the DVD was very functional.

Dave Joyce

Hey Rob, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Yea, I remember that seminar in Warwick that Lee was at:) and Tuhon Tom is one of my instructors in Sayoc Kali (the other been European director Guro Krishna Godhania).

Tuhon Tom runs Sayoc Tactical, which is not taught to the public and is different from the Sayoc curriculum. It is only available to military, LEO and some areas of security. There is hardly an area of the above in the States that he has not worked with from Special Ops units to Homeland Security to State Troopers and SWAT units. Each have different areas of requirements and is taylored to their needs. His area of expertise is wrestling and he has had over 1000 competitive matches since age 6, including sparring with Royce Gracie before the UFC began. He has also trained in professional boxing, with Robert Hines, apart from a number of other martial arts.

Baggio...

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Hey Rob, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Yea, I remember that seminar in Warwick that Lee was at:) and Tuhon Tom is one of my instructors in Sayoc Kali (the other been European director Guro Krishna Godhania).

No hassles...Yep! that's the seminar Lee was talking about - small world . He was well impressed with Tom. He was saying that he was one of the best knife guys he'd ever seen. I'd love to go to one of his seminars at some point...

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Tuhon Tom runs Sayoc Tactical, which is not taught to the public and is different from the Sayoc curriculum. It is only available to military, LEO and some areas of security. There is hardly an area of the above in the States that he has not worked with from Special Ops units to Homeland Security to State Troopers and SWAT units.

That's one impressive C.V. I figured the stuff he was doing would be different from the normal stuff (ie - for public consumption). It's definitely got me really interested in learning some knife work now (not that I'd carry one).

Cheers,

Rob.

PS - Do you know if there are any Syoc places in kildare (or close to it)? Thanks...

Dave Joyce

Unfortunately theres only myself here in Ireland. In fact there is only a few instructors in the whole of Europe but it is growing.

We have regular training group meets in either Kilkenny or Dublin and you're very welcome to come along to one of those Rob.

Baggio...

Dave Joyce wrote: »

We have regular training group meets in either Kilkenny or Dublin and you're very welcome to come along to one of those Rob.

Hey Dave, That'd be cool - I'd be well into that. Much appreciated!

Sorry for all the questions, but do you ever do private tuition in your club? I could always pop down to Galway as well.

Cheers,

R.

Tim_Murphy

Boru. wrote: »

Guys, I don't want to pimp my products here on the fourm, it's completely off topic. Pm your email address and I'll send you a big long list of the studies.

Sent you my email address there. I would be particularly interested in the studies which talk about the 5-15% increase in strength per session and the ones about only having to do a 7 second work out.

john kavanagh

what if someone comes up with a 6 second work out?

Roper

STEP INTO MY OFFICE!

Dave Joyce

Sorry for all the questions, but do you ever do private tuition in your club? I could always pop down to Galway as well.

No worries at all Rob. Tbh, with all the classes, working full time, getting ready to go back to college and trying to fit in some sort of family life I don't do many privates but could arrange something with you. Forgot to mention we also do have training group meets in Galway both in and outdoor. If you want to give me a bell my landline is 091-776686.

Baggio...

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Tbh, with all the classes, working full time, getting ready to go back to college and trying to fit in some sort of family life

Hey Dave,
I know now the feeling... I'll give you a quick call over the weekend if that's okay?

Cheers,

R.

pearsquasher

eh.....

/On topic/
.......so did anyone bother to read the Marine Corp Martial Arts program website... I thought it clarified all issues that people seemed to have had re hand-to-hand vs guns etc.

/On topic/

Dave Joyce

Yea thats grand Rob, if I'm not there just leave a contact number and I'll get back to you.