NTSA withdraws from SSAI

Red Renard

Target shooting SSAI Membership.

The NTSA regret to announce that it has withdrawn from the SSAI. This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities. The committee of the NTSA wish to thank all the SSAI committee members with whom they have worked closely over the years and of course will continue to work with within the framework of the FCP.

It also has been rumored the NRAI have also Withdrawn.

Sikamick

Red Renard wrote: »

Target shooting SSAI Membership.

The NTSA regret to announce that it has withdrawn from the SSAI. This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities. The committee of the NTSA wish to thank all the SSAI committee members with whom they have worked closely over the years and of course will continue to work with within the framework of the FCP.

It also has been rumored the NRAI have also Withdrawn.

_________________________________________________________________


Red Renard have you any idea as to what happened and why.


Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club.

Sparks

Thread is temporarily closed. Just give us a few minutes folks, we'll explain then.

Sparks

Okay folks, the mods have been discussing this for a while (some of us had an inkling it might be coming and we do occasionally discuss contingency plans for such events). We're reopening the thread for discussion now, but there are a few ground rules:

• Firstly, this is the only thread on this topic. I'll retitle it so it's clear what it's about, but all other threads or posts on this topic found in any other thread will wind up merged into here.
• The Charter is in full force here and will be actively enforced, especially the parts relating to being civil to one another and the part requesting you to use the Report Post button rather than moderating the forum yourself. Before you post, reread it, even if you've been posting here for years. We're not kidding.
• Once you've reread the Charter, reread the post where it was explained why this forum was shut down for a while a few months back, and then reread DeVore's post regarding the NGBs and posting on this forum which we are now stickying for as long as it is needed, and then reread DeVore's sticky on allegations against named individuals. All these are still in force, and once you've reread them you'll know where the mods are coming from (and hopefully, you'll agree).
• There are aspects to this that are fair game; those are the aspects where shooters on the ground are wondering how this affects their sport on a day-to-day basis. There are also aspects which will get posts edited or deleted and posters infracted or banned; those are the aspects where anonymous first-time posters try to get digs into people just because they think they can. The former are safe; the latter are going to be severely policed by the mods. There are some gray areas in between, but if you're straying into a gray area, the onus is on you to do so from as impersonal a point of view as you can. We don't want to have to delete or edit or infract or ban people, honestly, but we cannot risk the forum again just so someone can anonymously blame someone for something. There are genuine concerns amongst shooters that we could use this forum to alleviate and addressing those has to be our priority here.

Thread reopened.

Would it be possible to get a list of oganisation who have quit the SSAI?

Will this mean that there are no more carding grants for NTSA shooters?

bunny shooter

Suggestion: Mods with a vested interest should stand back and allow impartial Mods to Mod this thread ?

Sparks

Deleted User wrote: »

Would it be possible to get a list of oganisation who have quit the SSAI?

Just the NTSA. The NRAI have some serious issues but have not formally withdrawn. The rep for the NASRPC has quit but the NASRPC has not formally withdrawn; I don't think they've even met to discuss it yet.

Will this mean that there are no more carding grants for NTSA shooters?

No. Carding grants are between the ISC and the shooter directly. The NGB status is meant to be irrelevant according to the ISC. The NTSA is going to seek independent recognition of course, but the existing grants are not affected under ISC rules.

bunny shooter wrote: »

Suggestion: Mods with a vested interest should stand back and allow impartial Mods to Mod this thread ?

1) What vested interests?
2) What partial behaviour have you seen?

bunny shooter

There are two Mods here who are members of NTSA. There are two who aren't. I suggest those who are members should stand back. There has been trouble here before where Mods were too involved in the subject matter. Impartiality is needed here. That's my suggestion.

bunny shooter

Are we seeing the fragmentation or total destruction of the only semblence of a nationally representative shooting organisation we had in this country ?

Sparks

For a start, myself and IRLConor are ordinary members of the NTSA. We shoot in NTSA matches, ergo, we're members. Neither of us are on the committee. Second, you'd have to excuse any SSAI members, and you'd also have to excuse any IPSA members, and basicly, by the time you're done excusing, you'd have noone left. So no, it's not going to happen. All four mods are watching this thread. If you really can't live with that, go to HelpDesk and make your case there.

Secondly, the rules we've laid out above are determined by the admins of the site, and they specificly prohibit getting a dig in.

Thirdly, the areas we laid out for discussion above are about how this affects shooters on the ground. Zara asked the kind of questions we were talking about. Impartiality is intrinsic in those areas. The areas where you'd have to make an effort to be impartial are verboten anyway.

Vegeta

bunny shooter wrote: »

There are two Mods here who are members of NTSA. There are two who aren't. I suggest those who are members should stand back. There has been trouble here before where Mods were too involved in the subject matter. Impartiality is needed here. That's my suggestion.

Beilieve me bunny if the lads break the rules I will be getting out the ban hammer just like I would for any other user.

and passing it to a cmod

EDIT: and I'd expect the same if I stepped out of line

On a side note who better to discuss how the change effects shooters in the NTSA, than shooters in the NTSA.

This is a Q&A thread not a "Its Mr. Xs fault" "No you're wrong, you're in the ABC, of course you'd think that"

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Are we seeing the fragmentation or total destruction of the only semblence of a nationally representative shooting organisation we had in this country ?

No, we're not. We're seeing the NTSA leaving, which it had to do if the IPSA was to join. And don't go down the politics road please.
Also, the only thing we have that comes close to a national representation for shooters is the FCP, which is not affected by this.

Sparks

To give some sense of perspective here, by the way, I was talking to the captain of DURC yesterday about this and he'd only heard of the SSAI once before and had no idea of what they did. And he is more involved than the vast majority of ordinary shooters in the club. And I've never gone to a WTSC AGM where the the SSAI was mentioned and didn't have to be explained in detail. The ordinary shooter on the ground just doesn't know or care about the SSAI. You're doing well if they know their own NGB, let alone any other group.

There are those who are directly affected, it's true; hence this thread. But they're not the majority.

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

No, we're not. We're seeing the NTSA leaving, which it had to do if the IPSA was to join.

I don't know the background to this. Why did they have to leave if the IPSA was to join?

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

............ you'd have to excuse any SSAI members, and you'd also have to excuse any IPSA members.....

Only if they were Mods here is my suggestion.

Anyway. I made it, you considered it, you declined it, end of .....

Cheers

Its an ISSF rule, the target shooting NGB can't be in the same organisation as any Practical Pistol NGB

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

bunny shooter wrote: »

Suggestion: Mods with a vested interest should stand back and allow impartial Mods to Mod this thread ?

1) What vested interests?
2) What partial behaviour have you seen?

Let's not go down this road folks.

The 'Report Post' button is there for a reason; if anyone see something they consider to be 'vested interest' or 'partiality', use the button. All the Shooting mods and the Sports CMods will be notified and it can be dealt with from there.

This is a sensitive subject and many people have legitimate concerns about it, but please bear the content of post #4 in mind and consider the content of your posts carefully before hitting the 'Submit' button.

Sparks

Deleted User wrote: »

Its an ISSF rule, the target shooting NGB can't be in the same organisation as any Practical Pistol NGB

Exactly correct. Several ISSF member federations have come a cropper to this - and were derecognised as a sanction. If that happened here, it would be even worse, because in Ireland, ISSF recognition is divided between the shotgun and the rifle/pistol bodies. If either of them is derecognised for any reason, the recognition devolves to the other in full, and cannot be restored.

In other words, if the NTSA was derecognised, they'd have to have the ICPSA derecognised in order to send a team to any international event ever again. Obviously that's not something that's gonna happen. So they would have have to have left anyway when the IPSA came in.

dresden8

Any particular reason or just a nasty little turf war?

thehair

Also, the only thing we have that comes close to a national representation for shooters is the FCP, which is not affected by this.[/QUOTE]
F-C-P -I HOPE NOT A LOT OF GOOD WORK DONE A LOT MORE WORK NEEDED

riflehunter77

Red Renard wrote: »

Target shooting SSAI Membership.

The NTSA regret to announce that it has withdrawn from the SSAI. This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities. The committee of the NTSA wish to thank all the SSAI committee members with whom they have worked closely over the years and of course will continue to work with within the framework of the FCP.

It also has been rumored the NRAI have also Withdrawn.

Lads would it be possible to put up the full title once instead of the abbreviations ( NTSA) for the viewers on this thread who are not invoved in target shooting ?? True my own ignorance I dont have a clue what the NTSA is .

Our man in Havana

NTSA= National Target Shooting Association
SSAI= Shooting Sports Association of Ireland

Sparks

dresden8 wrote: »

Any particular reason or just a nasty little turf war?

For the ISSF/IPSC hassles? Tt's a big turf war over olympic status for IPSC shooting, way up above our pay grades so to speak.

Sparks

riflehunter77 wrote: »

Lads would it be possible to put up the full title once instead of the abbreviations ( NTSA) for the viewers on this thread who are not invoved in target shooting ?

I just tried. There's not enough room in the system to have the title without the abbreviations
Says something, that does...

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

We're seeing the NTSA leaving, which it had to do if the IPSA was to join.

In fairness to all concerned, the NTSA statement makes no mention whatsoever of any other shooting organisation (excepting the SSAI, obviously), and clearly says: "This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities."
Unless and until NTSA or any other organisation makes further official public statements on the matter, we really shouldn't be second guessing a decision making process to which, as far as I know, very few (if any) of us here have any first hand knowledge.

demonloop

I have no business posting in this thread, being from the north, but not being one for ceremony....

Its been discussed in the north on several occasions the perceived disarray of governance of shooting sports in the south, be it practical pistol, target etc.

Whether or not thats true can be argued to death but its certainly perceived. Not that anyone is doing anything purposely wrong in the south, but that the structures are lacking. There are so many bodies governing the sport I can't ever keep track.

I couldn't honestly tell you who has the final say of target shooting in the south, but I bet everyone in the south knows that the NSRA is the highest power in UK (for smallbore at least) Yes the north has a few different bodies, but its reasonably well thought out and has structure of some sort.

I understand the problems with practical pistol and target shooting as far as the ISSF rulings go, that much is clear, but to have the target shooting end of things leaving its ruling body to allow the practical pistol to come in could be seen as a victory for the practical pistol and a defeat for the target shooters. Perhaps no harm in that, who knows.

I hope I'm not doing the NGBs of the south an injustice, but its an honest view point shared in the north.

A well known GB 'figure of importance' has often aired the opinion that NI and ROI should shoot together, GB certainly don't want NI.

Imagine what sort of a clerical farce that would be, even more ruling bodies!! Forgetting the wider politics that would cause, it would give us a better chance against the rest of the world, but perhaps a step too far for most - works for the rugby though!

Whatever the issues of this event are lets hope its sorted for the good of the sport and the shooters who love the sport.

Rant over.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Just the NTSA. The NRAI have some serious issues but have not formally withdrawn.

________________________________________________________________

NTSA withdrawing from the SSAI, can one ask if it was for the same reason that the NRAI have serious issues? is the withdrawal connected with the NRAI (Issues)

Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club
Affiliated member of NRAI & the NASR&PC.

Vegeta

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks wrote: »

Just the NTSA. The NRAI have some serious issues but have not formally withdrawn.

________________________________________________________________

NTSA withdrawing from the SSAI, can one ask if it was for the same reason that the NRAI have serious issues? is the withdrawal connected with the NRAI (Issues)

Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club
Affiliated member of NRAI & the NASR&PC.

I think anyone that could answer that would be on the NTSA committee and by posting NGB business might owe boards 950 euro.

I'd advise against in folks

Clash

demonloop wrote: »

I have no business posting in this thread, being from the north, but not being one for ceremony....

Its been discussed in the north on several occasions the perceived disarray of governance of shooting sports in the south, be it practical pistol, target etc.

Whether or not thats true can be argued to death but its certainly perceived. Not that anyone is doing anything purposely wrong in the south, but that the structures are lacking. There are so many bodies governing the sport I can't ever keep track.

And jumping in myself , it'd be perceived the same here. There's the UCESSA, NITSA, UCPSA, NIFTA, URA and of course the Irish Rifle Club (Bisley) which was formerly the Irish Rifle Association (I think) and used shoot as Ireland in F-Class.

I couldn't honestly tell you who has the final say of target shooting in the south, but I bet everyone in the south knows that the NSRA is the highest power in UK (for smallbore at least) Yes the north has a few different bodies, but its reasonably well thought out and has structure of some sort.

I think it's a problem of perception. You live in the North and so understand your structures better than us and vice versa.

I understand the problems with practical pistol and target shooting as far as the ISSF rulings go, that much is clear, but to have the target shooting end of things leaving its ruling body to allow the practical pistol to come in could be seen as a victory for the practical pistol and a defeat for the target shooters. Perhaps no harm in that, who knows.

There's no mention of the IPSA in the NTSA statement, it's wrong to suggest that when its only been wild speculation. I'm sure the IPSA would be more than peeved if they heard that people were blaming them for the situation.

I hope I'm not doing the NGBs of the south an injustice, but its an honest view point shared in the north.

Even in the UK, there's approximately the same number of bodies. It makes sense for different sports with different focuses to be governed seperately. Why else would there be the NRA, NSRA, CPSA, MLAGB, BFTA etc. etc.?

A well known GB 'figure of importance' has often aired the opinion that NI and ROI should shoot together, GB certainly don't want NI.

Imagine what sort of a clerical farce that would be, even more ruling bodies!! Forgetting the wider politics that would cause, it would give us a better chance against the rest of the world, but perhaps a step too far for most - works for the rugby though!

There used to be one organisation that controlled the sport on a provincial basis including Ulster. I think it lasted up to the 1960's.

Clash

Sikamick wrote: »

NTSA withdrawing from the SSAI, can one ask if it was for the same reason that the NRAI have serious issues? is the withdrawal connected with the NRAI (Issues)

NTSA Statement wrote:

after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities

Black & white?

Vegeta

on thread warning, next thread which I consider politics discussion and you could be looking at some time off from the forum folks

This thread is to discuss how the decision effects shooting not the politics of different shooting organisations

Sparks

Okay, so far we've a half-dozen posts in here and several phone calls and PMs outside here all on the same incorrect point, so can I clear something up here folks? When I said that the NTSA would have to leave the SSAI if the IPSA joined, I was not saying that's why they have left. The reason's in their statement. I'm just pointing out what's been public domain knowlege for over a year anyway in case someone was to suggest there was no upside to this.

Sheesh. Now how about we take Veg's advice and discuss the sport related bits of this please? I mean, if the only thing that anyone has a question on here is the politics bits, we might as well close the thread now.

It wasn't me!

Are there any tangible effects, good, bad or indifferent, for NTSA members, either day to day or extraordinary?

tonysopprano

"Okay, so far we've a half-dozen posts in here and several phone calls and PMs outside here all on the same incorrect point, so can I clear something up here folks? When I said that the NTSA would have to leave the SSAI if the IPSA joined, I was not saying that's why they have left. The reason's in their statement. I'm just pointing out what's been public domain knowlege for over a year anyway in case someone was to suggest there was no upside to this."

So does this mean that the IPSA are now in the SSAI and as a consequence have a seat at the FCP?

Sparks

Are there any tangible effects, good, bad or indifferent, for NTSA members, either day to day or extraordinary?

Not immediately I think. Money's going to be tight for a while until Sports Council recognition is granted, but that doesn't affect anyone not on an international team.
In the long term, I'm personally stoked about this, I think it has a lot of potential to sort out the structures above the day-to-day shooter. A lot of manhours are now available to the NTSA to direct to things like coaching training and (once ISC recognition is sorted) renegotiating carding grant criteria so that the carding grant system is no longer daft and silly when you go past your 21st birthday. Actual sport stuff in other words. We could finally develop a pathways program which would be a boon to the day-to-day shooter (by which I mean, beginner courses, basic coaching, club level coaching, national level coaching, international events - a pathway for a total newbie to take all the way to the Olympics, with places along the way where they can aim for if the Olympics seems too much).

And hopefully we might actually start to see more involvement from the NI shooters as well - the NTSA's 32 county and always has been but thanks to the legislation hassles, cross-border competition has suffered in recent years.

From the NTSA's point of view and that of NTSA shooters, I think this is probably the most positive move made in a decade or so.

Sparks

tonysopprano wrote: »

So does this mean that the IPSA are now in the SSAI and as a consequence have a seat at the FCP?

No, the IPSA isn't officially in the SSAI as yet (as I understand it anyway). It does means that one headache on their road to that place is no longer there (but it's no longer there for other reasons). Think of it as a positive side effect.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Not immediately I think. Money's going to be tight for a while until Sports Council recognition is granted, but that doesn't affect anyone not on an international team.
In the long term, I'm personally stoked about this, I think it has a lot of potential to sort out the structures above the day-to-day shooter. A lot of manhours are now available to the NTSA to direct to things like coaching training and (once ISC recognition is sorted) renegotiating carding grant criteria so that the carding grant system is no longer daft and silly when you go past your 21st birthday. Actual sport stuff in other words. We could finally develop a pathways program which would be a boon to the day-to-day shooter (by which I mean, beginner courses, basic coaching, club level coaching, national level coaching, international events - a pathway for a total newbie to take all the way to the Olympics, with places along the way where they can aim for if the Olympics seems too much).

And hopefully we might actually start to see more involvement from the NI shooters as well - the NTSA's 32 county and always has been but thanks to the legislation hassles, cross-border competition has suffered in recent years.

From the NTSA's point of view and that of NTSA shooters, I think this is probably the most positive move made in a decade or so.

Well, anything that ends in more coaching and nationally structured and systematic coaching is a good idea by my measure, and if it simplifies matters above the level of most shooters, that's great too.

IRLConor

demonloop wrote: »

A well known GB 'figure of importance' has often aired the opinion that NI and ROI should shoot together, GB certainly don't want NI.

Hard to understand why they'd think that. There's a reasonable base of shooters in NI, certainly enough to contribute well to the UK shooting scene. Well, if GB doesn't want you then it's their loss and our gain.

I'd love to see more cross-border shooting interaction, more than just the postal matches. The paperwork for northern shooters coming south is a problem though. It's a pity, because we could do with a bunch of your shooters coming down and giving us a kick in the pants in smallbore shooting. The scores here have been picking up for the last while but being beaten does wonders for motivating you for more training.

Hopefully the only real outcome of the NTSA leaving the SSAI will be a stronger focus on the shooting.

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

Hard to understand why they'd think that.

Indeed. Certainly folks like Gary Duff could give folks like Mike Babb a run for their money if you compare their respective heydays (which, however, did not coincide).

There's a reasonable base of shooters in NI, certainly enough to contribute well to the UK shooting scene. Well, if GB doesn't want you then it's their loss and our gain.

In fact, it could be both gain. There's a formal rule about who you can shoot for if you're in NI - you have to choose either the GB or IRL teams for a particular match. But I have never understood the concept of that choice having anything to do with whom you train with. Nor could I think of any objection to someone declaring for GB for one match and IRL for another. Frankly, the more shooters on the line, the better the match, and I think that we need to do some building up right now and that means not ruling folks out on any basis that doesn't have a really good underlying reason.

I'd love to see more cross-border shooting interaction, more than just the postal matches.

Ditto. Some of the best matches I've been at were in N.Ireland and a lot of the shooters I started shooting with are up there.

It's a pity, because we could do with a bunch of your shooters coming down and giving us a kick in the pants in smallbore shooting. The scores here have been picking up for the last while but being beaten does wonders for motivating you for more training.

And we could return the favour in air rifle

Hopefully the only real outcome of the NTSA leaving the SSAI will be a stronger focus on the shooting.

That's why most of the people at the coaching end of things and most of the admin people in the NTSA are really rather stoked right now. The potential to progress here is really excellent.

demonloop

Great comments, both Conor and Sparks, it would be great to have more training together and competitions as well.

The logistics can prove troublesome, as was posted already, but not something that can't be conquered.

I'm sure the politics part of thigs goes on in most other sports as well, be it athletics etc but something that really does detract from the sport and what the sport stands for.

Lets hope the re-shuffle in the south helps the sport as a whole.

fourtycoats

What were the mods expecting on this thread? I have never seen such dire warnings in advance of an expected debate. Did you kill any debate or is it a case of "so what" as regards the secession?

Sparks

We were expecting the kind of thing that got the forum shut down the last time fourty - and from what I remember, everyone used to complain about that kind of thing when it was going on (read "The Sandbox", "How to derail a topic with a personal dispute", "NRAI/LRRAI Debate" and the other 'bad old days' threads to see what I mean). Since then, the internecine squabbling has been banned from here by the admins, and pretty much everyone who'd anything to do with it seems to be the happier for it.

Sikamick

Sparks can the NTSA get funding direct from the Irish Sports Council?

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks can the NTSA get funding direct from the Irish Sports Council?

Sikamick

That's up to the Sports Council. There are no guarantees.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

That's up to the Sports Council. There are no guarantees.

_____________________________________________________________

How do the Sports Council evaluate an Association for funding and what does an Association do to get official recognition.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

_____________________________________________________________

How do the Sports Council evaluate an Association for funding and what does an Association do to get official recognition.

Sikamick

It would be quicker for both of us if you went here.

Rule 1 is that they generally only recognise one body for a particular sport. Hence the existence of the NRPAI/SSAI in the first place.

Sparks

Thing is, the existance of the NRPAI/SSAI was predicated on the idea that ISSF shooting and Silhouette shooting and Sporter rifle shooting and the tetrathlon were all the same sport. Manifestly untrue.
Personally, I believe that gaining independent recognition from the ISC and qualifying for ISC funding (which, by the way, are seperate things), is going to be relatively straightforward for the NTSA.

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

How do the Sports Council evaluate an Association for funding and what does an Association do to get official recognition.

From the ISC:

Eligibility process
The Council operates an eligibility process for organisations wishing to become eligible for Council support as Governing Bodies of Sport. The eligibility criteria establish minimum requirements for all organisations wishing to apply for Council financial support. The Eligibility process is currently under review.

Sparks

As we already have the NTSA statement on the thread.
From the NRAI website:

SSAI Update

Following a meeting with the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland on 
Wednesday 13th August @ 7.30pm, it was agreed that
:

(1) 
In the future all meetings and correspondence concerning the business of the 
NRAI, must at all times be conducted directly with the NRAI, being the 
National governing body for F-Class, Target and Match in the Republic of 
Ireland and not through any other body.




(2) 

It was further agreed at that meeting to clarify the position of the SSAI 
(Shooting Sports association of Ireland) as there seems to be some confusion 
on the matter.

 The SSAI is an umbrella body for some shooting organisations within the Republic 
of Ireland.

It's main purpose is the distribution of funding as determined 
by the Irish Sports Council.

It is not an NGB (National Governing Body for Shooting Sports in Ireland).



It has no regulatory function or powers over Shooting sports in Ireland.

 Its officers are not authorised or empowered to act independently of the 
associated organisations which comprise the umbrella body.

It has no function in awarding or withholding recognition of NGB status to 
associations.

The NRAI regrets the departure of the NTSA from the SSAI and would like to wish them all the best for the future.

kdshooter

Sparks wrote: »

As we already have the NTSA statement on the thread.
From the NRAI website:

Sorry don't understand - are NRAI pulling out of SSAI?

Not sure what their website is saying!

Sparks

They're not pulling out at the moment, and those statements are ones which the SSAI have stipulated to at the NRAI's request, as I understand it.