Bakfiets Cargo Bike

rflynnr

Does anyone have experience of or know someone who has experience of these Dutch cargobikes? I've been transporting my two kids to creche/school on my hybrid since they were born but the little one is no longer so little and I'm looking for some means of continuing to transport the pair of them - hopefully for some time into the future or at least until they're capable of riding themselves?

I have considered trailers but frankly the idea of having them sitting behind me at such a low level during rush-hour traffic scares the bejeesus out of me. Then I came across the aforementioned Bakfiets (see http://www.bakfiets.nl/eng/) and though expensive it seems to address the problem.

My only major concern is the gearing - an 8-speed Nexus internal hub set - which I fear may not be sufficient to permit me to climb Mobhi Road in Glasnevin, an integral part of my commute for the forseeable.

Any advice, experience gratefully received.

penexpers

A cheaper option might be to buy an Xtracycle reftrofit kit.

http://www.xtracycle.com/home/sport-utility-bicycles/models/#retrofit

This would be more flexible than a Bakfiet I think.

I wouldn't see any problems with a Nexus hub for going up that hill either.

kenmc

you can rent them in holland, in many places, so maybe an option to go to amsterdam for a weekend and give them a try. Could then bring it home on the plane if you liked it, cost 50 quid or something to put a bike on.

Raam

kenmc wrote: »

you can rent them in holland, in many places, so maybe an option to go to amsterdam for a weekend and give them a try. Could then bring it home on the plane if you liked it, cost 50 quid or something to put a bike on.

If your gonna fly one back with Aerlingus, be aware that the limit for bikes is 15kg, every kg after that is gonna cost you, cost you big. Like 9e for each kg you are in excess. It's 30 quid for the bike itself.
Now I dunno the weight of the cargo bikes, or even if you are allowed to leave your kids in it while on the plane, but hopefully it would be under 15kg.

kenmc

they have a limit on the weight of bikes? Jaysus that's harsh. bad enough that they charge you a bike fee in the first place and then they limit the weight of it! Nearly as bad as Gougerair!
In that case if the bike is 18kg or over your best bet is to register two 'bikes' where one bike is simply the frame and the other is the box and wheels, so you end up with 2 'bikes' under 15kg each!

Raam

kenmc wrote: »

they have a limit on the weight of bikes? Jaysus that's harsh. bad enough that they charge you a bike fee in the first place and then they limit the weight of it! Nearly as bad as Gougerair!
In that case if the bike is 18kg or over your best bet is to register two 'bikes' where one bike is simply the frame and the other is the box and wheels, so you end up with 2 'bikes' under 15kg each!

I almost got screwed by it. For some reason I thought it was 30kg, even though it clearly says the weight limit on the website. I didn't get weighed on the way out, although I had done so myself at home, and it was coming in at 22kg or there abouts. I had all my clothes etc in the bike bag as I didn't really feel like giving another ~12 lids for a checkin bag. I had a smallish carry-on also.
Then, on the way home the guy gets me to pop it on the scales:
"22.5kg" it says.
"That will be 67 euro" he says.
"Jaysus", I says.

I tried to play the innocent, which in my mind at the time, I was. So I told him, "I'm going to have to do an operation on it". 5 minutes later, and with one very creatively packed carry on bag (glad he didn't want to weigh that one actually), I got it weighed again and it came in at 18.5kg. Nice guy that he is, he let me off the charge and gave me an exit row seat to boot


Edit: sorry for going off topic

blorg

I can certainly see the advantage to having the kids up front rather than out the back though, really looks a lot more reassuring.

Cycling Plus had an article on the Triobike in July 2008, same sort of idea as the Bakfiets but it converts between standard bike/detatchable pram/tricycle, looked very clever indeed. Some more info here.



They also mentioned the Fietsfabriek 995 which someone had picked up on eBay for £500.

@Raam- I am pretty sure that 15kg limit on bikes is a new thing; perhaps not rigidly enforced if you aren't crazy over I would hope as many touring bikes in a bag would certainly be over 15kg (not everyone is on lightweight carbon fibre you know, I have a hybrid that is 15kg on it's own and it isn't even something I would consider particularly heavy!)

The triobike weighs 42kg BTW I think you would also have issues with the restrictions on dimensions, I do not think any airline would take one of these sort of bikes as is.

niceonetom

rflynnr wrote: »

My only major concern is the gearing - an 8-speed Nexus internal hub set - which I fear may not be sufficient to permit me to climb Mobhi Road in Glasnevin, an integral part of my commute for the forseeable.

Any advice, experience gratefully received.

Interesting bikes... the idea of carrying the wee ones in front is nice. re the gearing worry - i'd point out that you could swap the front chainring for a smaller one if you were finding hills a bit tough.

penexpers

blorg wrote: »

I can certainly see the advantage to having the kids up front rather than out the back though, really looks a lot more reassuring.

I'm not sold on that idea, they look a small bit insecure and I would imagine uncomfortable. People have modified the Snapdeck on the Xtracycle to carry kids like this



I think that's a much better idea.

kenmc

I've seen bakfietsen all over holland, and they look the business. If I had kids I'd much rather have them in front of me where I can see them. The baskets are plenty big too - they have seats and straps in them to hold the kids securely. They're also low to the ground, so the centre of gravity is easier to manage, and more importantly if you do fall over the distance they can fall is not so big. I reckon the Bakfiets (or similarly styled) is the way to go.

blorg

Look plenty secure and comfortable to me (rain cover is a further bonus):

lukester

For peace of mind I'd be happier with the Bakfiets too, keep an eye on the nippers upfront. It seems a really well thought out solution from a cycling mad country.

Depending on cost/difficulty of getting one over here, I'd consider the other option.

oobydooby

Blorg there's a (pretty damning) review of those Trio bikes here. Essentially saying they look great but are not well designed for actual performance. The comments have some interesting links for other such children-carrying bikes.

www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/2007/10/04/triobike-internet-reviews


Sorry OP, no experience on these, but very interested. Saw one yesterday on Milltown bridge, the first one I've ever seen. Mother and kids waved at my colourful bicycle:)

rflynnr

I did a fair bit of research on the options before settling on the Bakfiets. The Triobike thing looks cool and is very flexible but the only substantive review I could find which was written by someone coming from a cycling background as opposed to a design one pretty much excoriated it, suggesting that it was difficult to steer and that the coupling attaching the bike part to the front "tub" (where kids sit) was too loose (in part contributing to the unresponsive steering).

I also considered the Xtracycle option, again in part because it looks so damn cool. I also suspect I could assemble something reasonably secure to work as seats. However, the Xtracycle option leaves kids exposed to rain. It's not that I think a bit of rain is going to hurt them - as it stands we normally just throw them into these all-in-one puddleduck rainsuits before putting them on the bike - but if it's really heavy even that's not an option.

The Bakfiets by contrast offers a removable canopy, can carry 100kg and places the kids in front of me. So, ideal. However, that's why I'm still concerned about the eight speed hub: as it stands I'm already in the lowest gear on a 24-speed for a part of my commute. The kids are only going to get heavier and the bike itself is far heavier than my existing hybrid. Add to that me and assorted bags and you're looking at shifting a total weight of 140-150kg (?) up a fairly steep hill.

I've heard that there's "a guy in Phibsboro" who owns one. Does anyone known who this this elusive Pimpernel might be?

kenmc

i saw one lad in ranelagh with one also. suspect it's the same one as the one spotted in miltown, doubt there's too many in dublin, nevermind 2 in the same area.

kenmc

And therein lies the problem. The biggest hills you will find in Amsterdam are the bridges over the canals...

rflynnr

Mind you, I just noticed NiceOneTom's suggestion about changing the big ring: that might address the issue a bit...

rflynnr

Been meaning to post this for ages just to complete the cargobike narrative I started with this thread. I eventually imported one via an online UK dealer called dutchbike.co.uk. (There is also a crowd in Amsterdam called Workcycles which apparently export them but they never responded to my emails.)

If anyone else is thinking of going down this route I highly recommend them. The transport cost at €90 (to my door) struck me as very reasonable and the bike itself turns out top be great. They were also very flexible in facilitating the purchase via the Bike-to-Work scheme, and probably saved me a few quid in negotiations with my employeers over the question of whether VAT should apply to the purchase. They've even been open to building some customised bits to extend the headroom in the canopy (an image of which I've attached after a weekend jaunt to Dollymount).

I can also go on about the bike but won't bore you with it unless some specfically asks.

NeilMcEoigheann

couriers have the bullitt, the box comes separate but i'm sure you could get an appropriate child container.

Lumen

rflynnr wrote: »

I can also go on about the bike but won't bore you with it unless some specfically asks.

Yes please.

Got the wife's Pasley Princess delivered yesterday, so we both have rear child seats. Great for family cycles (1x3.5yr, 1x21m) but no good solo.

Thinking of getting a BoBike Mini for the front, a few UK importers do them.

Not sure I have space for a full cargo bike. Was thinking of a Fietsfabriek Pack Max Duo but same issue - a lot of bike to store when not in use.

ROK ON

Ye're all nuts.
I cycle to escape from my kids for a few hours. Last think i want is to be lugging them around in a big crate attached to the bike.
But each to his own - enjoy cycling your crate bike.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

Ye're all nuts.
I cycle to escape from my kids for a few hours. Last think i want is to be lugging them around in a big crate attached to the bike.
But each to his own - enjoy cycling your crate bike.

This is a good point. However, given the option of driving the little sods around in the car or doing the same on a bike, I'll choose the bike.

Did some fixie laps of the Park a couple of weeks ago with the 3.5 yr old on the back. The hills were tough! He also complained of being cold, despite it being quite warm, and asked me to slow down. Then he just went quiet and stared into space.

I need to work on my parenting skills.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

He also complained of being cold, despite it being quite warm, and asked me to slow down. Then he just went quiet and stared into space.

Sounds like me on a Saturday spin.

pburns

ROK ON wrote: »

Ye're all nuts.
I cycle to escape from my kids for a few hours. Last think i want is to be lugging them around in a big crate attached to the bike.
But each to his own - enjoy cycling your crate bike.

+1 I'm afraid.

I wouldn't cycle kids around on a contraption like that, weaving in and out of city traffic, no way. You have nothing in the way (i) manouverability to avoid an incident or (ii) physical protection.

This is the opposite end of the spectrum from all those yummie mummies insisting on a Range Rover as the only suitably safe transport to transport Fiachra and Sinead to schoool, sports, music lessons etc.

Personally I'd be putting 'em in one of these but to each their own...

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Ford/Focus/Zetec-5d/200917192569159/advert

Raam

Fair play rflynnr and Lumen. I'll be coming to yis for advice in a few years I'm sure.

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

Thinking of getting a BoBike Mini for the front, a few UK importers do them.

Isn't putting a child in that position the least safe option?? I think Blorg posted a link to some report a while back.

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

Fair play rflynnr and Lumen. I'll be coming to yis for advice in a few years I'm sure.

Hadn't you better clear it with the Missus first? she'll have to do most of the work...!

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Hadn't you better clear it with the Missus first? she'll have to do most of the work...!

What, with Raam sitting in the front and her doing the pedaling?

thesunwashot

The Christiana tricycles are extremely popular in Denmark and have been around for ages doing exactly what you want. They aren't cheap though either.

Velorution (http://www.velorution.biz) in London stock a few different brands of work/family bikes/trikes. Maybe it would be worth giving them a call for advice.

ROK ON

My Name is Mario wrote: »

What, with Raam sitting in the front and her doing the pedaling?

Yes, thats it - the miracle of creation.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

Isn't putting a child in that position the least safe option?? I think Blorg posted a link to some report a while back.

Yes. However...

When I am on my bike, I am always aware that if I get killed or seriously injured my kids will be fatherless or forced to witness me as a dribbling vegetable.

I therefore try to ride in such a way as to avoid serious accidents, and believe that in the most part they are avoidable (the same is true when driving). If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't be able to ride at all.

It's not much different when I have a child on the bike, except that I am extra cautious to avoid more minor accidents which would only cause me superficial damage (but more serious damage to a small passenger).

Basically, if you have a child on the bike, crashing is really not an option regardless of how they are carried.

niceonetom

From what i've seen, parents towing kids in trailers or cargo bikes tend to get an extremely wide berth by motorists. It must be the little orange flag.

A couple of weeks ago I was riding through Roselawn in D15. I passed a woman with one of the high-viz bubble trailers attached to her bike with two kids in it. Further up the road I stopped dutifully at a red light and as I was waiting she came steaming past me (at about 10kph!) straight across the junction to turn right. She got away with it, but it was pretty much pure luck. I was gobsmacked.

The "Darwin will take care of them" line is trotted out fairly regularly around here. It seemed grimly appropriate to me just then.

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

Basically, if you have a child on the bike, crashing is really not an option regardless of how they are carried.

No worries, was just keeping you half-informed.

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

From what i've seen, parents towing kids in trailers or cargo bikes tend to get an extremely wide berth by motorists.

I get a wide berth when using the rear seat too. It's great!

Don't RLJ much though. Turning across traffic is "brave".

rflynnr

I'm with Lumen on this. The purchase of the cargobike was primarily for the school run so the kids climb into it everyday and - incidentally - love it. It the only alternative to getting a car which, for a whole host of reasons, was an absolute last resort.

I can see why someone might think I was putting my kids at risk in putting them into this "contraption" (as pburns puts it) but I gave this a lot of thought before embarking on what proved a pretty expensive purchase (north of €1500 all in). And, experience has borne out what I anticipated: the size of the bike means that drivers give me an extraordinary berth when passing. Indeed, they're usually so gobsmacked by its appearance that they all but stop to have a gander. I've genuinely never felt safer on a bike.

That said, again like Lumen, I'm beyond cautious when the kids are sitting in the bike - to the extent where I often won't filter through stationary traffic. (Red light jumping would never be an option regardless of circumstances.)

So, all in all, it's been a great purchase. My initial concerns about whether the gearing would cope with my commute up Glasnevin Hill or Mobhi Road have been partially borne out - there is a 20 yard stretch when I can feel my heart rate start to climb - but it's eminently doable and on the flat, though slower than a normal bike, it's a pleasure to ride. She's obviously less manouvreable than a regular bike (three point turns are not unknown) but this hasn't been a problem thus far and I can't really envisage a situation where it would be. The brakes (front and rear hub brakes) are superb, even fully loaded and the gearing permits a fair clip on most gradients.
You simply don't cycle it like a regular bike and accept its limitations as a trade-off for what it is capable of doing: moving 3-4 people (2-3 of whom remain dry in the worst weather) at a reasonable pace under human power.

So there.

lukester

Up to what age can chislers ride in it?

rottenhat

rflynnr wrote: »

My initial concerns about whether the gearing would cope with my commute up Glasnevin Hill or Mobhi Road have been partially borne out - there is a 20 yard stretch when I can feel my heart rate start to climb - but it's eminently doable and on the flat, though slower than a normal bike, it's a pleasure to ride.

It looks awesome rflynnr - deserves a few pictures in the images of beauty thread.

In respect of gearing, the Rohloff speedhub might give you a wider range than the Nexus although it is far from cheap (actually, I've just checked...it's so far from cheap as to probably not be worth looking into unless upgraditis strikes)....

MadHatter

rflynnr wrote: »

(three point turns are not unknown)

Classic!

I think it looks great. And as you say, extremely practical. Wouldn't be an option for me though due to space restrictions.

I have a centre mounted seat - not too disimilar to the bobike - and I find it works well, but then I only have one little one to transport. I am aware of the various views/studies on centre mounted seats, but I've a similar view to Lumen - crashing is simply not an option.

rflynnr

lukester wrote: »

Up to what age can chislers ride in it?

It's less age than combined weight and height. You can place 85kg in the barrow section (and carry a further 15kg of child in a rear-mounted seat if feeling masochistic). My kids are 3 and 4 and weight about 45kg together, so weight-wise I reckon I can keep carrying them for another 3 years or so. I also went for the long cargobike (there is a shorter option) so there's little chance of them feeling cramped this side of 10 years of age.

Chris Peak

You can also take the missus out with one http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1173225/Claudia-Winklemans-marriage-gets-track-playful-bike-ride.html

Lumen

Chris Peak wrote: »

You can also take the missus out with one http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1173225/Claudia-Winklemans-marriage-gets-track-playful-bike-ride.html

Very closed body language there.

I suspect their marital problems stem from the fact that she won't let him into her box.

VinDevo

rflynnr wrote: »

Been meaning to post this for ages just to complete the cargobike narrative I started with this thread. I eventually imported one via an online UK dealer called dutchbike.co.uk. (There is also a crowd in Amsterdam called Workcycles which apparently export them but they never responded to my emails.)

If anyone else is thinking of going down this route I highly recommend them. The transport cost at €90 (to my door) struck me as very reasonable and the bike itself turns out top be great. They were also very flexible in facilitating the purchase via the Bike-to-Work scheme, and probably saved me a few quid in negotiations with my employeers over the question of whether VAT should apply to the purchase. They've even been open to building some customised bits to extend the headroom in the canopy (an image of which I've attached after a weekend jaunt to Dollymount).

I can also go on about the bike but won't bore you with it unless some specfically asks.

Congrats on the Bakfiets - I fancy one myself but think it might be a bit impractical in my house - however I was in Amsterdam over the Easter and had a go on an Azor delivery bike which I really liked - nearly bought it but had second thoughts.
How did the Bike-to-work scheme work out with the Dutchbike import? Were you able to get back the VAT? on both the bike and the delivery?

Dave Null

rflynnr wrote: »

(There is also a crowd in Amsterdam called Workcycles which apparently export them but they never responded to my emails.)

rflynnr they did answer mine. The cost of shipping them from Amsterdam is quite steep.

rflynnr

VinDevo wrote: »

Congrats on the Bakfiets - I fancy one myself but think it might be a bit impractical in my house - however I was in Amsterdam over the Easter and had a go on an Azor delivery bike which I really liked - nearly bought it but had second thoughts.
How did the Bike-to-work scheme work out with the Dutchbike import? Were you able to get back the VAT? on both the bike and the delivery?

Actually the VAT question is still up in the air: to their credit, it was dutchbike.co.uk who brought it to my attention that there might be VAT savings to be made. Negotations (or something) between our Finance Dept and dutchbike.co.uk are ongoing but I'll post when I find out whether or not the VAT I've already paid will be fully or partly refunded.

Chips Lovell

On the VAT issue, here's what the Dept of Finance told me at the time of the budget:

"A VAT input credit is only allowable for goods and services that are used by a taxable person "for the purposes of his taxable supplies" (Section 12 (1) (a) VAT Act, 1972 (Amended)). As the bicycles will not be used for the purposes of taxable supplies no input credit is allowable. To clarify, the employer will not be able to reclaim the VAT on bicycles purchased on behalf of employees."

rflynnr

el tonto wrote: »

On the VAT issue, here's what the Dept of Finance told me at the time of the budget:

"A VAT input credit is only allowable for goods and services that are used by a taxable person "for the purposes of his taxable supplies" (Section 12 (1) (a) VAT Act, 1972 (Amended)). As the bicycles will not be used for the purposes of taxable supplies no input credit is allowable. To clarify, the employer will not be able to reclaim the VAT on bicycles purchased on behalf of employees."

Oh.

B*llocks.

(Thanks though.)

VinDevo

sorry - don't mean to be going on about it - not sure I understand (or made myself understood)- were you able to avail of the Bike-to-work scheme on the imported bike?

Dave Null

From bikescheme.ie FAQS

Am I liable to pay VAT on the bicycle / equipment purchased for employees? Can I claim an input credit in respect of the VAT?

A. Yes, VAT is payable. The employer will not be able to claim an input credit in respect of the VAT payable as the bicycles will not be used for the purposes of taxable supplies.


Q. Can a bicycle be bought anywhere, e.g. online from abroad, or will it have to be bought in Ireland or from a pre-approved selection of shops?

A. There are no limits as to where the bicycle should be purchased by the employer.


Q. If I am getting the bicycles and equipment delivered to my workplace, is the cost of delivery covered by the tax relief on the scheme?

A. Yes, provided the maximum value of the benefit, including delivery charges, does not exceed €1,000. The relief is limited to €1,000 - where the cost exceeds this amount, a BIK charge will apply to the balance.

VinDevo

Thanks for that Dave - guess I should have done a little research ;-)

rflynnr

@ vindevo - the point about VAT on delivery was moot in my case since the bike and bits alone came to €1585 so I was well over the €1000 limit.

Turbulent Bill

rflynnr wrote: »

@ vindevo - the point about VAT on delivery was moot in my case since the bike and bits alone came to €1585 so I was well over the €1000 limit.

Could you not claim the bike scheme BIK on the first €1000? My underestanding is that you (via your employer) can spend as much as you want, but you will only get tax relief on the first €1000 - the balance is charged as normal from your after-tax salary.