More like: The Hazards of agnosticism (Spin-off thread)

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

Anybody think it's worth stickying a cautionary thread? This sad story just in today:

http://today.reuters.com/news/ArticleNews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-06-05T133715Z_01_L05642927_RTRUKOC_0_US-UKRAINE-LION.xml

The poor guy said: "God will save me, if he exists" that to me sounds like somebody who is not too sure about whether God exists or not, which would make him an agnostic and not somebody who truly believes in God, so the title of this sticky is flawed. It should be re-titled to: "The Hazards of agnosticism"

In any case, it is not a good idea to test God like that. But if you ever find yourself in the unfortunate situation of being thrown to the lions as Daniel was, then my suggestion would be to whisper a prayer to God for deliverance from said unfortunate situation. Then I’m sure He will help you provided your prayer is from the heart and done by faith.

Rule number 1 out here: 'Always!!' no no I mean, 'Never' throw yourself to the lions.

Can’t believe you guys made this a sticky though???

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

The poor guy said: "God will save me, if he exists" that to me sounds like somebody who is not too sure about whether God exists or not, which would make him an agnostic and not somebody who truly believes in God, so the title of this sticky is flawed.

On the contrary, I'd have said that somebody leaping into a lion's den and expecting to be airlifted out by a mid-eastern deity shows a level of belief that puts every religious poster on boards to shame

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

But if you ever find yourself in the unfortunate situation of being thrown to the lions as Daniel was, then my suggestion would be to whisper a prayer to God for deliverance from said unfortunate situation. Then I’m sure He will help you provided your prayer is from the heart and done by faith.

Ahahahaha! Oh man. Have you any idea how many millions of honest and faithful Christians have died desperately praying to God over the centuries?

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

On the contrary, I'd have said that somebody leaping into a lion's den and expecting to be airlifted out by a mid-eastern deity shows a level of belief that puts every religious poster on boards to shame

Well it shouldn't really put anyone to shame in fairness. Showing off your "faith" in that manner is just plain old fashioned Stupid! Unless of course God specificaly told him to do it in order to make a point to the on-looking world that He is capable of saving people from such circumstances, which is something the man never claimed happened, which means that the man acted outside and independently of God's will for him. Does that mean that God couldn't have saved him anyway? No, He could have, but why should He? The guy took a stupid pill and paid the ultimate price. The lesson "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" is driven home, hopefully other people will learn and think twice about doing similar stupid acts in the future. God is not a cosmic bellhop, the sooner people who think He is realise this then the safer they'll be from their own stupid actions.

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

Ahahahaha! Oh man. Have you any idea how many millions of honest and faithful Christians have died desperately praying to God over the centuries?

No I don't actually, please fill me in. How many? And what are their names?

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Showing off your "faith" in that manner is just plain old fashioned Stupid! Unless of course God specificaly told him to do it

And how do you know that he wasn't specifically told by god to jump in? I think it's fairly clear that the guy thought he was going to be airlifted out...

pH

Soul Winner wrote: »

Does that mean that God couldn't have saved him anyway? No, He could have, but why should He? The guy took a stupid pill and paid the ultimate price.

A probably delusional man, has to pay the ultimate price for his 'stupidity' because God has his rules and doesn't like to be tested. In other words your God is less compassionate that the average A&E doctor who will try and save everyone regardless of the stupidity of their own actions?

He so could have cos he's soooooooooo big and powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINh4SsOyBw

He could have ... doesn't the fact that he never has give you any pause for thought before saying that so confidently?

It's posters like you whose callous disregard for human life and and infatuation with your big and powerful God remind me daily of the true meaning of Christianity.

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

No I don't actually, please fill me in. How many? And what are their names?

Er, lets be clear here. Are you maintaining that no honest faithful Christian has died while praying to not die? Ever?

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

And how do you know that he wasn't specifically told by god to jump in?

Let's just call it a wild guess shall we?

robindch wrote: »

I think it's fairly clear that the guy thought he was going to be airlifted out...

Well he was wrong wasn't he?

Flamed Diving

Soul Winner wrote: »

Let's just call it a wild guess shall we?

Much like your beliefs.

Soul Winner

pH wrote: »

A probably delusional man, has to pay the ultimate price for his 'stupidity' because God has his rules and doesn't like to be tested.

You catch on fast.

pH wrote: »

In other words your God is less compassionate that the average A&E doctor who will try and save everyone regardless of the stupidity of their own actions?

As great as the Doctors we have here in Ireland are, none of them died on a cross for me. You know of any?

pH wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINh4SsOyBw

Not one of the funnier Monty Python scenes IMO. Although the film over all was quite funny.

This scetch is funnier I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

pH wrote: »

He could have ... doesn't the fact that he never has give you any pause for thought before saying that so confidently?

Never has? What are you talking about?

pH wrote: »

It's posters like you whose callous disregard for human life and and infatuation with your big and powerful God remind me daily of the true meaning of Christianity.

Oh please, it wasn't me who chose to use this poor guy's story as a sticky thread in order to poke fun at people who believe in the supernatural was it?

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

Er, lets be clear here. Are you maintaining that no honest faithful Christian has died while praying to not die? Ever?

No, the problem is that you will never accept any stories of the miraculous as being genuine, only stories about seemingly failures on God's part. If someone says that they were miraculously healed of cancer and attribute it to God because they had prayed for it for weeks before hand, then you will say: "Ah they're just foolish people believing in such things, its just coincidental that they were healed." But if someone dies whilst praying for healing, then God is a sadist for not healing them. It’s perfectly fine for you to believe He exists once He's not being so nice to people.

Soul Winner

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Much like your beliefs.

You are wasted here you know that? The wit is just too much to take at times.

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Let's just call it a wild guess shall we?

No wilder than your claim that he wasn't!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well he was wrong wasn't he?

Well as you do today, he believed back then that he was going to be helped by the god that he thought existed. Turned out he was wrong -- "ask and you shall receive" just didn't work. But he did have the courage of his convictions, so it seems strange to me that you dismiss him, rather than respect him.

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

No wilder than your claim that he wasn't!

My bet is that if God had told him to do it then the man would have said so. He didn't, so my guess is that God didn't speak to him, nor was the man acting on any general revelation in the Bible either. If it had been either/or then I'd be have questions about it, but that was not the case, so why blame God?

robindch wrote: »

Well as you do today, he believed back then that he was going to be helped by the god that he thought existed. Turned out he was wrong -- "ask and you shall receive" just didn't work. But he did have the courage of his convictions, so it seems strange to me that you dismiss him, rather than respect him.

I neither dismiss or respect him. I think what he did was stupid. Apparently he was in a very stable frame of mind according to some here, so what else do you want me to say? If it turns out that he had mental problems then that's a whole different matter isn't it? The question is, did he? And the general consensus from the atheists here is that he was of sound mind, which leaves me no choice but to brand his actions as stupid.

And when did he ask for anything? He said, 'God will save me, if he exists.' That does not sound like someone asking for anything to me, rather it sounds more like somebody telling something. He played chicken with God and lost. Simple! Do I wish he hadn't done it? Big time!

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

I think what he did was stupid. Apparently he was in a very stable frame of mind according to some here, so what else do you want me to say?

I am trying to see if you can admit the possibility that religion -- as a system which purports to provide guidelines for living -- mislead this unfortunate man into thinking that he could do something that he could not. This is unconnected with whether or not god exists, or whether the bible's description of god is accurate or not (in the unlikely event he does exist).

At some point somebody must have introduced religion to this unfortunate man and then either fanned its growth, or at least, did nothing to stop its growth. The end result of which was him climbing, apparently quite calmly, into a lion's den where he was eaten alive. I blame religion, and religion's propagators, quite squarely for building and selling a decision-making framework within which this kind of sad madness can be considered praiseworthy or even a useful activity. There are many more examples of religion leading people to death, including that of Jesus himself. I recall very few religious people saying, or even hinting, that religion was to blame for misleading the unfortunates concerned.

Why is that?

Scofflaw

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, the problem is that you will never accept any stories of the miraculous as being genuine, only stories about seemingly failures on God's part. If someone says that they were miraculously healed of cancer and attribute it to God because they had prayed for it for weeks before hand, then you will say: "Ah they're just foolish people believing in such things, its just coincidental that they were healed." But if someone dies whilst praying for healing, then God is a sadist for not healing them. It’s perfectly fine for you to believe He exists once He's not being so nice to people.

Hm. No, we're pointing out that the latter set of circumstances don't match with the Christian portrayal - but what doesn't match is the apparent "behaviour" of the image you have in your heads.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

I am trying to see if you can admit the possibility that religion -- as a system which purports to provide guidelines for living -- mislead this unfortunate man into thinking that he could do something that he could not.

I am willing to admit that possibility but we don’t know that do we?

robindch wrote: »

This is unconnected with whether or not god exists, or whether the bible's description of god is accurate or not (in the unlikely event he does exist).

Agreed.

robindch wrote: »

At some point somebody must have introduced religion to this unfortunate man and then either fanned its growth, or at least, did nothing to stop its growth.

And that of itself is a bad thing because???

robindch wrote: »

The end result of which was him climbing, apparently quite calmly, into a lion's den where he was eaten alive.

Objection your honour. Pure speculation and conjecture, not supported by the facts of this case.

robindch wrote: »

I blame religion, and religion's propagators, quite squarely for building and selling a decision-making framework within which this kind of sad madness can be considered praiseworthy or even a useful activity.

Now now, I never praised him, nor did I read anyone else praise him for his actions. In fact if you recall it was you who appeared the most ready to praise his actions, see below quotes:

robindch wrote:

…But he did have the courage of his convictions, so it seems strange to me that you dismiss him, rather than respect him.

And:

robindch wrote:

On the contrary, I'd have said that somebody leaping into a lion's den and expecting to be airlifted out by a mid-eastern deity shows a level of belief that puts every religious poster on boards to shame

robindch wrote: »

There are many more examples of religion leading people to death, including that of Jesus himself.

You must learn the lesson of what true dedication to a cause or strongly held belief really is. Unless you are willing to lay your life down for what you truly believe in then you are not true beliver in it. Jesus said the there is no greater love than the laying down of one’s life for one’s friends. Jesus did this voluntarily for the world, most of whom were/are His enemies never mind friends. Jesus was not led to death by religion, He said “No man takes my life from me, the shepherd lays His life down.”

robindch wrote: »

I recall very few religious people saying, or even hinting, that religion was to blame for misleading the unfortunates concerned.

What I find really curious is what on the surface appears to simply be a case of one individual's act of stupidity now being turned into something that can be blamed on religion. Has any religious organisation claimed responsibility for his actions? Has his family publicly blamed any religious order to which the man might have belonged to? Did he himself say that it was religion that made him do it? No! He acted alone. Why do you automatically assume that this man’s actions were the result of any brainwashing activity on the part of a religious organisation before you know the facts? Now it might be the case that in fact it is true that a cult of some sort brainwashed him, but it wouldn't matter to you either way. Religion will always get it in the neck regardless of what the facts might or might not be. You will never credit it for anything. Why don't you ever harp on about all the good things that come from religion, like charity, helping homeless people, sending missionaries to countries to help its poor to build infrastructure so that they can have a relatively decent living standard, who campaign against evil regimes all over the world and put themselves into the firing line and pay with their lives standing up for the oppressed and unfortunates of this world? You never go on about those kinds of good things that come from religious people.

Do I think that all religious organisations and all religious people are perfect entities? I sure don’t. Some of them are more corrupt and corruptible than non religious organisations but that shouldn’t mean that you tar all them with the same brush. A bit of impartiality is what’s needed me thinks. Judge each case on its merits. This guy acted foolish and paid too high a price for it.

pH

Soul Winner wrote: »

As great as the Doctors we have here in Ireland are, none of them died on a cross for me. You know of any?

You must be using the word 'died' in some sort of weird way I've never heard before. My understanding is that God 'died' for 3 days and went to heaven (I guess - though maybe some Christian can clarify exactly where Jesus spent his 'dead days'), then he rose from the dead and went back to heaven. So God's dying seems to involve 3 days in heaven a brief return to earth and then back to heaven. Excuse me if I'm not overwhelmed at this 'sacrifice'.

Not one of the funnier Monty Python scenes IMO. Although the film over all was quite funny.

This scetch is funnier I think:

Ahhhhhhhhhhh ... Christians pronouncing on the relative merits of various Monty Python scenes ... this thread is now full of win.

Never has? What are you talking about?

I would have thought that was simple. In 2,000 years God has never directly intervened and saved anyone, or perhaps you have some evidence he has?

Oh please, it wasn't me who chose to use this poor guy's story as a sticky thread in order to poke fun at people who believe in the supernatural was it?

We've been persecuted for this thread since it started:

Playboy wrote:

ye a community of smart asses who get to together to pat each other on the back about how intelligent they are in comparison to theists and laugh at the misfortune of the mentally ill.

Still in the face of this persecution we'll soldier on, remaining steadfast in our non beliefs, resolute against attacks of the non doubters.

Dades

Discussion got to big for the The Hazards of Belief sticky.

Moved!

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

In any case, it is not a good idea to test God like that.

Well yes, that is kinda the point.

He doesn't exist and therefore he won't save you.

AtomicHorror

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, the problem is that you will never accept any stories of the miraculous as being genuine, only stories about seemingly failures on God's part. If someone says that they were miraculously healed of cancer and attribute it to God because they had prayed for it for weeks before hand, then you will say: "Ah they're just foolish people believing in such things, its just coincidental that they were healed."

The stories about "failures on God's part" are pretty easy to verify because they happen pretty much constantly. Miracle cures never seem to hold up to even casual examination and, were we to take all such documented verifiable incidents together, I would speculate that we'll find that the claimed responsible deities (or other agents) represent a quite evenly spread distribution across all faiths and some pseudo-sciences too.

Tell me, do you believe in the healing power of magnets? They don't always work (and sceptics love to jump on those stories of course), but some person I know told me that magnets cured their cancer. Actually it was someone they know, but it was in the papers too.

Soul Winner wrote: »

But if someone dies whilst praying for healing, then God is a sadist for not healing them. It’s perfectly fine for you to believe He exists once He's not being so nice to people.

Nobody here believes that God is a sadist. This is the Atheist board. They believe he's a myth. I believe it's not relevant either way.

aidan24326

Soul Winner wrote: »

Oh please, it wasn't me who chose to use this poor guy's story as a sticky thread in order to poke fun at people who believe in the supernatural was it?

It wasn't intended to poke fun, more to show the dangers of religiously-inspired delusion.

so why blame God?

Nobody's blaming 'god'. We're blaming the system of indoctrination that leads people to believe in fairytales, in this case with tragic results.

He played chicken with God and lost. Simple! Do I wish he hadn't done it? Big time!

Because the creator and ruler of the universe enjoys games of chicken now?

I am willing to admit that possibility (prayer doesn't work) but we don’t know that do we?

Yes we do. There is not a single shred of evidence for anyone having ever been saved/healed/cured by praying. On the contrary there are countless people who have prayed their hearts out to the bitter end and were met with stonewall silence from this god of yours.

Jesus himself questioned why his god had forsaken him at the end. Perhaps Jesus began to realise his mistake when it was too late.

Unless you are willing to lay your life down for what you truly believe in then you are not a true beliver in it. Jesus said the there is no greater love than the laying down of one’s life for one’s friends

Off you go then. Heaven awaits.

sending missionaries to countries to help its poor to build infrastructure so that they can have a relatively decent living standard

Not to mention preaching to the poor unfortunates that contraception is forbidden, thus promoting disease and unwanted pregnancies in poor impoverished areas?

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, the problem is that you will never accept any stories of the miraculous as being genuine, only stories about seemingly failures on God's part. If someone says that they were miraculously healed of cancer and attribute it to God because they had prayed for it for weeks before hand, then you will say: "Ah they're just foolish people believing in such things, its just coincidental that they were healed." But if someone dies whilst praying for healing, then God is a sadist for not healing them. It’s perfectly fine for you to believe He exists once He's not being so nice to people.

How little credit you do me! If it could be shown that faithful Christians survived terrible illness better than all other creeds through the power of prayer I would be compelled to accept the power of it. And lets be honest here, if prayer has the power you ascribe it then we could easily test it.

But worry not! Someone has already tested it for us! And the results are quite interesting. Not only does prayer not save lives, but the stress of knowing one is being prayed for has negative consequences for one's health! Isn't that amazing?

See? Unlike you, I don't believe what I want to believe, I believe what the evidence supports. And according to the evidence prayer is nothing more than meaningless words. Sorry. But worry not, I'm sure that faithful brain of yours will perform some gymnastic-like rationalisation and you'll be off praying to your imaginary friends in no time.

Also, I don't think God fails. I don't believe in God. There's nothing up there. Its people who disappoint me.

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

Jesus said the there is no greater love than the laying down of one’s life for one’s friends. Jesus did this voluntarily for the world

While we're on the topic, does anyone else think Jesus' sacrifice is no big deal considering he would be ressurected a few days later?

I'd totally give my life for pretty much anything vaguely important if I were the immortal son of God who rises from death. Hell, I'd do it for BBQ weekends. Day 1, Zillah dies and we drink beer. Day 2, we swim in the lake and have burgers. Day 3, we have some light breakfast and Zillah rises again to much applause. Festivities end with a sunset beach party.

pH

Zillah wrote: »

While we're on the topic, does anyone else think Jesus' sacrifice is no big deal considering he would be ressurected a few days later?

While I accept that the whole flaying and nailed to a cross bit can't have been that pleasant, the 'death' part of the sacrifice always confused me.

Firstly where exactly was Jesus when he died? Did he have a soul? was he subject to Judgement (by himself?) like all other souls?

And then after 3 days didn't he go straight back to heaven?

It's all extremely silly, what exactly does it mean for 1/3 of God to 'die', isn't God always everywhere, wasn't Jesus in heaven (and everywhere else) when he was here on earth anyway?

Goduznt Xzst

pH wrote: »

It's all extremely silly, what exactly does it mean for 1/3 of God to 'die', isn't God always everywhere, wasn't Jesus in heaven (and everywhere else) when he was here on earth anyway?

from my research into it I've come to this conclusion. Even though Christ is God, Christ whilst in human form was a completely separate entity to God, I dunno, think of it like what the mini-cons are to the Autobots.

So in his human form he was identical to all imperfect humans, up until the point that he was baptized by john, given the knowledge of god, made perfect and given super powers. The purpose of Christ was to spread Gods word, he was also destined to be killed to show that a perfect human could stay faithful to God up until death, to disprove Satan's allegation that all perfect men could be tempted to be unfaithful (proven by Adams apple addiction). This opened up the way for humans that stayed faithful whilst imperfect to be raised up to heaven at death.

On the topic of Agnosticism, I can't see how someone could live there life that way. It always reminds me of Yann Martel's musings in the "The life of Pi" on Agnosticism

"To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation" - Yann Martel

Soul Winner

pH wrote: »

You must be using the word 'died' in some sort of weird way I've never heard before. My understanding is that God 'died' for 3 days and went to heaven (I guess - though maybe some Christian can clarify exactly where Jesus spent his 'dead days'), then he rose from the dead and went back to heaven. So God's dying seems to involve 3 days in heaven a brief return to earth and then back to heaven. Excuse me if I'm not overwhelmed at this 'sacrifice'.

You are excused. But it wasn't just a normal physical earthly death if He was who He claimed to be in the first place. If that is so then there was an ongoing emptying process before and during His life down here culminating in His death. Total emptying completed and reliance on the Father to raise Him up. A claim repeatedly made in every mention of His death in the New Testament. That He came forth according to the promise of the Father. An emptying of power and ability to deliver Himself from such a self constricted life down here and from ultimate death was invoked as soon as He stepped from Heaven’s glory If He was who He claimed to be then He could have just said "scrap this I'm going home, I do not need this ****". But if He had done that then He wouldn't have provided the way to salvation, which was what He came to do in the first place. To open the door. A door that you either walk through it or you don't. But that's just looking at it from a Christian perspective, which is obviously not the right way to look at it, even though it was Christians who first put forth this story and is what the Christian message is in essence when you get down to brass tax. Anyway there are some who actually believe that Jesus ministered to departed souls during His 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. If it is in fact true that death could not hold Him, that it was not possible for Him to be holden of it, then its not too far a stretch to believe that He could have ministered to departed souls during this time period and not gone to heaven as you suggest. He didn’t ascend to heaven until after the resurrection.

pH wrote: »

Ahhhhhhhhhhh ... Christians pronouncing on the relative merits of various Monty Python scenes ... this thread is now full of win.

Monty Python movies and sketches are but only one of the many things that Christians like myself are more than capable of making pronouncements about. I am aware that there are so called Christians who believe that if you watch such things you are going to hell. Well they are the same people who don't even understand Matthew 7 that whenever you judge others you will be judged of that very same yourself, so I'm not worried too much about that they say anyway. But yes I love ‘The life of Brian’, still fold up laughing when I watch it I don’t believe it is a stab at God or Jesus. I believe that you see in it what you want to see. Some see blasphemy and others have a laugh. I have a laugh.

pH wrote: »

I would have thought that was simple. In 2,000 years God has never directly intervened and saved anyone, or perhaps you have some evidence he has?

Like you'd accept any if I had. And even if I had actual video footage of me walking on water you still wouldn't believe it. You’d never credit anything like that as supernatural even if you seen it with your own eyes.

But here's a few stories of modern day miracles (which you will not accept) either:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3782141/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/julia-sarah-and-katie-miracle-triplets-who-defied-the-odds-1056667.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.html

pH wrote: »

We've been persecuted for this thread since it started:

Do we like this word “Persecuted”? Bit strong isn’t it?

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

There's nothing up there.

I thought God was un-falsifiable as a scientific model. And therefore His existence can neither be proven or dis-proven by the scientific method. If this is so, then from whence came your conclusion that He is not up there? No no, don’t tell me, let me guess, eh ‘Special revelation’?

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

But here's a few stories of modern day miracles (which you will not accept) either:

Passing my eyes over these stories briefly, I have to say that standards are slipping. In the bible, miracles involved walking on water, coming back from the dead and so on. These days, it's considered a miracle if three three-month premature babies survive (around 75% of triplets are expected to survive, so it should be considered odd if one did die; stats here).

Why doesn't god do the difficult stuff any more? The hospitals of the world are filled with amputees -- why does he not grow back a few limbs? Even to christians only would be fine with me.

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

I thought God was un-falsifiable as a scientific model.

Yes, god has been on the retreat since the days of Bablyon, always disappearing from the unreachable place where the religious said he was, when he was shown not to be there. As science is today's intuition-pump, he has evolved to be unreachable within science too. No surprises there.

Soul Winner wrote: »

whence came your conclusion that He is not up there?

I suspect that it came from the same source that told you that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist -- your reason and experience.

In general, us atheists reject the existence of the god that you think exists, for the same general reasons that you reject everybody else's gods.

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

While we're on the topic, does anyone else think Jesus' sacrifice is no big deal considering he would be ressurected a few days later?

I'd pay money and even buy the pop corn to watch you demonstrate to us all how little of a deal it really was. And that includes enduring a Roman scourging with one of these babies.

Zillah

Yes it is unfalsifiable. Which means its such an irrelevantly useless idea science cannot even deign to take it seriously. While we cannot prove there is no God in a general sense, there is lots of evidence to suggest he's a manmade notion. We can however disprove the existence of any specific God that people claim interacts with the world in a meaningful way. For example, a God who answers prayers. Its been proven that prayers don't do anything, therefore we can conclude that a God who answers prayers does not exist.





I find it kind of funny that the one above line is the only part of the whole post you acknowledged. You have a very flexible sentience.

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'd pay money and even buy the pop corn to watch you demonstrate to us all how little of a deal it really was. And that includes injuring a Roman scourging with one of these babies.

So? God personified can endure some physical torture? AMAZING. Millions of people over the years have endured far worse (often at the hands of the Christian church, I'll add). Sure he had a bad death, so do a lot of people. However, everyone else doesn't get to crawl out of their entombment a few days later and show off to their friends.

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

So? God personified can endure some physical torture? AMAZING. Millions of people over the years have endured far worse (often at the hands of the Christian church, I'll add). Sure he had a bad death, so do a lot of people. However, everyone else doesn't get to crawl out of their entombment a few days later and show off to their friends.

Ok I'll buy the pop corn and the sweets, how's that?

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

I find it kind of funny that the one above line is the only part of the whole post you acknowledged. You have a very flexible sentience.

I know, hate that, get it all the time.

Galvasean

Soul Winner wrote: »

But here's a few stories of modern day miracles (which you will not accept) either:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3782141/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/julia-sarah-and-katie-miracle-triplets-who-defied-the-odds-1056667.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.html

So overcoming the odds is a miracle all of a sudden.
It's a miracle!!!

AtomicHorror

Soul Winner wrote: »

But here's a few stories of modern day miracles (which you will not accept) either:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3782141/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/julia-sarah-and-katie-miracle-triplets-who-defied-the-odds-1056667.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.html?

Unlikely events are not miracles, they're just unlikely.

I got a royal flush in poker once. Odds are about 250,000:1 of hitting that. Guess how many hands I've played? Hundreds of thousands.

Soul Winner

Galvasean wrote: »

So overcoming the odds is a miracle all of a sudden.
It's a miracle!!!

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." Albert Einstein

I agree, you either see everything as one huge miracle or you see everything as a huge accident that can be explained by natural means which of course would make that "natural" explanation itself an accident also. If it’s all one big cosmic accident then no explanation has any meaning because meaning itself is meaningless and therefore not worth the bother. So even if theists are wrong then it is a complete waste of ‘accidental’ time explaining it to them. Better off going for a pint.

Soul Winner

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Unlikely events are not miracles, they're just unlikely.

Not so. Unlikely events can also be miracles even by your standards because you see miracles as the most unlikely of all events.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I got a royal flush in poker once. Odds are about 250,000:1 of hitting that. Guess how many hands I've played? Hundreds of thousands.

I got a Royal Flush one time too. Spades. Was on a boat trip to Liverpool when I was about 9 years old. I rarely play poker if ever.

Galvasean

Soul Winner wrote: »

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." Albert Einstein

I agree, you either see everything as one huge miracle or you see everything as a huge accident that can be explained by natural means which of course would make that "natural" explanation itself an accident also.

Agreed.

Soul Winner wrote: »

If it’s all one big cosmic accident then no explanation has any meaning because meaning itself is meaningless and therefore not worth the bother. So even if theists are wrong then it is a complete waste of ‘accidental’ time explaining it to them. Better off going for a pint.

We need to discuss while having said pint

Soul Winner

Galvasean wrote: »

Agreed.



We need to discuss while having said pint

What are ya havin? My shout!

AtomicHorror

Soul Winner wrote: »

I agree, you either see everything as one huge miracle or you see everything as a huge accident that can be explained by natural means which of course would make that "natural" explanation itself an accident also. If it’s all one big cosmic accident then no explanation has any meaning because meaning itself is meaningless and therefore not worth the bother.

I prefer to find my own meaning! The objective is unverifiable anyway so I figure it's best to run with subjectivism.

Soul Winner wrote: »

So even if theists are wrong then it is a complete waste of ‘accidental’ time explaining it to them. Better off going for a pint.

You may be on to something there... :pac:

AtomicHorror

Soul Winner wrote: »

I got a Royal Flush one time too. Spades.

Snap! What are the chances? 1 in 4... but still.

Soul Winner

Just for the record! I really like you atheists, God put you here for a reason!!!

gramlab

Soul Winner wrote: »

If He was who He claimed to be then He could have just said "scrap this I'm going home, I do not need this ****". But if He had done that then He wouldn't have provided the way to salvation, which was what He came to do in the first place.

Are you saying that the whole master plan was that he had to die to save all of us. If that's true then god arranged his own death which means it wasn't really a sacrifice but a staged and planned sort of 2000 year old suicide by cop/roman i.e he needed them to kill him and made them do it???

Dave147

I love when know it alls online claim to know all God's plans etc. you call it faith, I call it naive.

Actually I don't love it at all..

Flamed Diving

Soul Winner wrote: »

Just for the record! I really like you atheists, God put you here for a reason!!!

Aww, all drunk and loved up!

*hugs*

Dades

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Aww, all drunk and loved up!

Let's hope they'll be as friendly this morning!

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Just for the record! I really like you atheists,

Awwww, that's nice; we love all christians too!

Soul Winner wrote: »

God put you here for a reason!!!

And there's a reason that you think this -- the fun comes in understanding why

Tar.Aldarion

Zillah wrote: »

While we're on the topic, does anyone else think Jesus' sacrifice is no big deal considering he would be ressurected a few days later?

I'd totally give my life for pretty much anything vaguely important if I were the immortal son of God who rises from death. Hell, I'd do it for BBQ weekends. Day 1, Zillah dies and we drink beer. Day 2, we swim in the lake and have burgers. Day 3, we have some light breakfast and Zillah rises again to much applause. Festivities end with a sunset beach party.

After you come back you're not allowed show people that you did and have to disappear into the sky really fastc. :pac: