Interconnector Now!!!

Irish and Proud

Let's send a clear message to Brian Cowen, Noel Dempsey and Brian Lenihan:

Don't even think of cutting funding for the interconnector - there is no going back now - this project must go ahead by Hook or by Crook!!! €2bn will give us more than just a 3 mile tunnel - it will bring several pawns to the 7th rank - those pawns being our existing railways into Dublin. As IE say: with the interconnector, they could triple capacity across the entire rail network (maybe another €2bn?) within the Dublin Hinterland - this would be the pawn promotion phase. Even if we have to sacrifice every other transport project beyond 2010 to complete the expanded DART network (the M6, M7, M8, M9 are under contract and more or less in the bag now!), then so be it.

INTERCONNECTOR NOW!!! :cool:

Amtmann

It's happening: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0813/1218477454427.html

paulm17781

Perhaps if we didn't have the ridiculous planning procedures we have, this would have started.

serfboard

Irish and Proud wrote: »

this project must go ahead by Hook or by Crook!!!

Are Hook and Crook the name of two engineering design companies?

djpbarry

Irish and Proud wrote: »

INTERCONNECTOR NOW!!!

I want it YESTERDAY!

BendiBus

djpbarry wrote: »

I want it YESTERDAY!

I'd settle for today with services starting around 17:15

djpbarry

On a more serious note, I'd be genuinely impressed if all involved can pull this off. The schematic is available here.

Polar101

I am wondering how many new trains would be needed for the new DART services, as it seems the 2 billion only gets you the tunnel - not the trains or the electrification (is that a word?) of the existing track.

Oh, I want it NOW too..

godtabh

paulm17781 wrote: »

Perhaps if we didn't have the ridiculous planning procedures we have, this would have started.

So just let people build what they want when they want and where they want? Yeah that will work.

It isnt planning that holds these things up. There is design, tender, detailed design, funding etc

paulm17781

kearnsr wrote: »

So just let people build what they want when they want and where they want? Yeah that will work.

It isnt planning that holds these things up. There is design, tender, detailed design, funding etc

Spain built two metro lines in 2 years. There's no reason we can't do that other than our ridiculous planning. Remember all Prof. Mellis' trips about it in 2002?

Zebra3

paulm17781 wrote: »

Spain built two metro lines in 2 years. There's no reason we can't do that other than our ridiculous planning. Remember all Prof. Mellis' trips about it in 2002?

They were also tunnelling 24 hours a day which made a big difference compared to the 8 hours a day they were putting in on the PT.

Carawaystick

the metro in Sevilla was well under construction when I was there in May 2005. Wikipedia says it started in 1999. It's still not open.
Spain isn't all a shiny as it's made out to be for Metro construction.

Irish and Proud

Furet wrote: »

It's happening: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0813/1218477454427.html

I read the article myself, but am inclined to err on the side of caution - with rapidly deteriorating public finances, there might just be the temptation to take the easy option and build the DOOR motorway while axing many rail projects - thereby missing a massive opportunity for Dublin. IMO, the DOOR will probably look after itself as there would be many takers for a PPP contract sooner or later. With the Interconnector, it's a case of strike while the iron is hot - things are cooling rapidly, but at all costs, we need to invest in both the LUAS and DART systems. The metro would be the icing on the cake though!

Though the politicians seem to be exerting pressure on IE, we (the public) need to keep the pressure on the government in order to get this ground-breaking (one more ways than one! ) project done.

Regards!

Irish and Proud

Carawaystick wrote: »

the metro in Sevilla was well under construction when I was there in May 2005. Wikipedia says it started in 1999. It's still not open.
Spain isn't all a shiny as it's made out to be for Metro construction.

I read somewhere today that in Warsaw, they built a rail tunnel only that the trains didn't fit! :(:(

In the same article, two sections of one motorway where designed only that the ends missed each other by 5 miles - obviously, the mistake was copped long before any construction works, but what a waste of administrative time and resources! :(:(

So, Ireland is the only country where cock-ups happen! :rolleyes:

Ireland should pull up its socks and follow the example of large engineering projects like:

The Big Dig in Boston; :rolleyes:
Heathrow Express Rail Tunnel; :rolleyes:
Three Gorges Dam Project; :rolleyes:

...and so on...

...so we can safely conclude that in engineering terms, the sun really does shine out of the ass of anything not Irish! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Regards!

Schuhart

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Let's send a clear message to Brian Cowen, Noel Dempsey and Brian Lenihan:

Can I suggest people do just that and send letters, phones calls or messages to the public representative of their choice so there's a clear understanding people are bothered about this.

Because I think its all a little like Alice's Restaurant

And if three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

And that's what it is, the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar.

With feeling.

DWCommuter

The sense of need on this thread is admirable. If a sense of optimism exists, I can't see it and thats to be expected. This project is so important that its beyond description in a manner that is understandable.

IE have been told to forge ahead with preliminary work. That means feck all. The real deal comes about when a railway order is granted and funding is expected in 2010. In my opinion, if the Government refuse to give a definitive committment to metro north, then the interconnector is whistling dixie in sweet home alabama.(along with Navan, metro west et al)

T21 is more uncertain than life on Mars.

serfboard

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Ireland should pull up its socks and follow the example of large engineering projects like:
Three Gorges Dam Project; :rolleyes:

The Three Gorges, yeah - let's displace 1.4 million people.

godtabh

paulm17781 wrote: »

Spain built two metro lines in 2 years. There's no reason we can't do that other than our ridiculous planning. Remember all Prof. Mellis' trips about it in 2002?

Why do people always have to compare what other countries can do to our own situation.

If Spain is so great move.

Each country has its own planning laws, tender process, construction process etc.

If they built the metro or Interconnector in a place not suitable as a result of no public consultation or planning you would be the first person up in arms asking why it was built there.

If they didn't tender the process properly and it cost billions and billions rather than millions you would be the first asking why.

If the design wasn't up to spec because it was rushed you'd be back here saying I told you so.

Things like this takes years to develop from concept to actual running. Nothing like this will ever be built over night.

markf909

kearnsr wrote:

Things like this takes years to develop from concept to actual running.

Especially in this country.

Luas plans published in 1991, running 2004.

Interconnector, fist mooted in 1977.
Current design appeared around the time of Platform for Change in 2001. Built and running ????

paulm17781

kearnsr wrote: »

Why do people always have to compare what other countries can do to our own situation.

Because when other countries can actually get the finger out and do things while we spend too long dilly dallying and paying for consultants report after constultant reports instead of just doing it. I'm not against planning as a concept, I'm against overly long planning periods. You know these projects could easily be built in a shorter time frame if we were to actually try. Why do you think they kept bringin Prof. Mellis over?

kearnsr wrote: »

If Spain is so great move.

A well put argument and a well made point. :rolleyes:

BendiBus

kearnsr wrote: »

Why do people always have to compare what other countries can do to our own situation.

Because there may be lessons to be learned from other countries experience. Lessons which may help us do things better. That's all.

serfboard

kearnsr wrote: »

If Spain is so great move.

So any time we look at how something is done in another country and think that it is better than how it is done here, we should just move there, instead of hoping/asking that it be done that way here instead?

godtabh

paulm17781 wrote: »

Because when other countries can actually get the finger out and do things while we spend too long dilly dallying and paying for consultants report after constultant reports instead of just doing it. I'm not against planning as a concept, I'm against overly long planning periods. You know these projects could easily be built in a shorter time frame if we were to actually try.

But do we have the same planning laws, engineering standards, ground condiitions, relevant expertiese, relevant equipment, man power etc etc etc as these countries. No we dont.

paulm17781 wrote: »

A well put argument and a well made point. :rolleyes:

It wasnt an argument it was a suggestion.

BendiBus wrote: »

Because there may be lessons to be learned from other countries experience. Lessons which may help us do things better. That's all.

Lessons learned usually relate to construction issues rather to design and planning.

serfboard wrote: »

So any time we look at how something is done in another country and think that it is better than how it is done here, we should just move there, instead of hoping/asking that it be done that way here instead?

Again that relates to construction issues rather than concpet and design.

SISK are probably the biggest civil engineering construction company in Ireland. They've done no tunnelling work themselfs. In the event that say Metro North goes ahead they will bring outside help from companies to do the work for them. This is when knowledge is passed on.

murphaph

kearnsr wrote: »

Lessons learned usually relate to construction issues rather to design and planning.
..

Again that relates to construction issues rather than concpet and design.

Strange. Why not try to learn lessons from all aspects of major infratsructure delivery..

paulm17781

kearnsr wrote: »

But do we have the same planning laws, <snip> No we dont.

That was my point.

kearnsr wrote: »

It wasnt an argument it was a suggestion.

A good one too. :rolleyes:

kearnsr wrote: »

SISK are probably the biggest civil engineering construction company in Ireland. They've done no tunnelling work themselfs. In the event that say Metro North goes ahead they will bring outside help from companies to do the work for them. This is when knowledge is passed on.

Who tunnelled / contracted the tunnelling of the port tunnel?

murphaph

Nishimatsu/mowlem/irishenco I think.

godtabh

A good one too. :rolleyes:

what back ground do you have in transport planning?
i think i've asked the question before. Would love to know.

whats another good one?my suggestion. Take it as you want.


Who tunnelled / contracted the tunnelling of the port tunnel?[/QUOTE]

murphaph wrote: »

Nishimatsu/mowlem/irishenco I think.

irish involvement was very very limited

stiktoir

kearnsr wrote: »

A good one too. :rolleyes:

what back ground do you have in transport planning?
i think i've asked the question before. Would love to know.

whats another good one?my suggestion. Take it as you want.


Who tunnelled / contracted the tunnelling of the port tunnel?

irish involvement was very very limited[/quote]





You're getting a bit dizzy up there on your high horse

You're incorrect. Irish engineers and supervisors learnt a lot. Enough to do it themselves.

godtabh

stiktoir wrote: »

irish involvement was very very limited

You're getting a bit dizzy up there on your high horse

You're incorrect. Irish engineers and supervisors learnt a lot. Enough to do it themselves.[/QUOTE]

tell me this of the four last groups tendering for metro north how many tunneling contractors are Irish?

stiktoir

kearnsr wrote: »

You're getting a bit dizzy up there on your high horse

You're incorrect. Irish engineers and supervisors learnt a lot. Enough to do it themselves.

tell me this of the four last groups tendering for metro north how many tunneling contractors are Irish?[/quote]


tell me this how did you get the idea that irish involvement in DPT was very limited

paulm17781

kearnsr wrote:

SISK are probably the biggest civil engineering construction company in Ireland. They've done no tunnelling work themselfs. In the event that say Metro North goes ahead they will bring outside help from companies to do the work for them. This is when knowledge is passed on.

kearnsr wrote:

irish involvement was very very limited

I see.

me wrote:

Perhaps if we didn't have the ridiculous planning procedures we have, this would have started.

kearnsr wrote:

But do we have the same planning laws, engineering standards, ground condiitions, relevant expertiese, relevant equipment, man power etc etc etc as these countries. No we dont.

Indeed.

kearnsr wrote:

what back ground do you have in transport planning?
i think i've asked the question before. Would love to know.

To which I have no background in transport plannin other than a keen interest. However it doesn't take a planning expert to see flaws in a process. That's why companies have consultants. I have a great deal of project management experience and I can see problems here. Even look at other countries that can get thins done faster.

I'm going to stop replying to you now as you've pretty much hijacked this thread by aruging with yourself and knowing more than everyone.

godtabh

stiktoir wrote: »

tell me this of the four last groups tendering for metro north how many tunneling contractors are Irish?

tell me this how did you get the idea that irish involvement in DPT was very limited[/QUOTE]

In relation to the tunnelling aspect of the DPT no irish companies had/has the ability to carry out these works.

paulm17781 wrote: »

I see.





Indeed.



To which I have no background in transport plannin other than a keen interest. However it doesn't take a planning expert to see flaws in a process. That's why companies have consultants. I have a great deal of project management experience and I can see problems here. Even look at other countries that can get thins done faster.

A keen interest is a lot different to a working knowledge of planning laws and legislation.

I've a keen interest in law but I'm sure I'd be the last person any one would want to represent them in court.

My point is that without a professional background in a very specialised area how can you fully grasp the intricate nature of the whole design and build and operation process?

Things like Strategic Infrastructure Development Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2007 are key aspects of planning legislation that has been developed by people who have far great expertise than both of us.

My point about SISK was they got would need outside help to complete the tunnelling process. Seeing some one do it once doest give them the ability to do it themselfs they next time. It does give them a working knowledge of how the whole process works and gives them a better platform to work from the next time. Eventually they maybe able to do it themselfs but this is a long way off.

stiktoir

kearnsr wrote: »

tell me this how did you get the idea that irish involvement in DPT was very limited

In relation to the tunnelling aspect of the DPT no irish companies had/has the ability to carry out these works.



A keen interest is a lot different to a working knowledge of planning laws and legislation.

I've a keen interest in law but I'm sure I'd be the last person any one would want to represent them in court.

My point is that without a professional background in a very specialised area how can you fully grasp the intricate nature of the whole design and build and operation process?

Things like Strategic Infrastructure Development Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2007 are key aspects of planning legislation that has been developed by people who have far great expertise than both of us.

My point about SISK was they got would need outside help to complete the tunnelling process. Seeing some one do it once doest give them the ability to do it themselfs they next time. It does give them a working knowledge of how the whole process works and gives them a better platform to work from the next time. Eventually they maybe able to do it themselfs but this is a long way off.[/quote]


says you

strassenwolf

Lads, could you learn how to use quotes properly in your posts.:(

Aard

This might be off topic [what is the topic anyway?], but after people talking about the distance between Heuston and Parkwest, it got me thinking that there is very low station density west of Heuston compared to density on the current DART line. There is a station every 1-2km on the current DART line, whereas there is about 4-5km between stations west of Heuston (and about 2-3km west of Drumcondra on the Maynooth line for that matter).

Are there any plans to 'fill in the gaps'? I'm not suggesting adding a station between Hazelhatch and Adamstown, but in the more built-up areas - eg at Kylemore Rd and Con Colbert Rd. Surely with plans to triple capacity there would have to be a higher density of stations?

godtabh

Aard wrote: »

This might be off topic [what is the topic anyway?], but after people talking about the distance between Heuston and Parkwest, it got me thinking that there is very low station density west of Heuston compared to density on the current DART line. There is a station every 1-2km on the current DART line, whereas there is about 4-5km between stations west of Heuston (and about 2-3km west of Drumcondra on the Maynooth line for that matter).

Are there any plans to 'fill in the gaps'? I'm not suggesting adding a station between Hazelhatch and Adamstown, but in the more built-up areas - eg at Kylemore Rd and Con Colbert Rd. Surely with plans to triple capacity there would have to be a higher density of stations?

Isnt that to do with the fact that the DART line is more densely populated?

DWCommuter

Aard wrote: »

This might be off topic [what is the topic anyway?], but after people talking about the distance between Heuston and Parkwest, it got me thinking that there is very low station density west of Heuston compared to density on the current DART line. There is a station every 1-2km on the current DART line, whereas there is about 4-5km between stations west of Heuston (and about 2-3km west of Drumcondra on the Maynooth line for that matter).

Are there any plans to 'fill in the gaps'? I'm not suggesting adding a station between Hazelhatch and Adamstown, but in the more built-up areas - eg at Kylemore Rd and Con Colbert Rd. Surely with plans to triple capacity there would have to be a higher density of stations?

Great point.

What a pity Kearnsr has the brain engaged to "attack". While Im at it, kearnsr, are you a trainspotter or just a general know it all. I find your contribution on this thread to be somewhat "irritating" and non-conclusive.

As for the gap between Heuston and Parkwest on this supposedly great underground hi tech DART, well, it was pointed out years ago on the old P11/RUI board. The conclusion then was the usual, "CIE can't think that way" scenario. You have to understand that CIE design things to "fix" railway problems. They never design things to "actually serve potential customers".

Im gonna repeat that last sentence......

"CIE DESIGN THINGS TO FIX RAILWAY PROBLEMS. THEY NEVER DESIGN THINGS TO ACTUALLY SERVE POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS."

This is why a railway line through the densely populated area of Cabra/phisboro carries no passengers on scheduled services from these areas and will never do so according to T21.

godtabh

DWCommuter wrote: »

What a pity Kearnsr has the brain engaged to "attack". While Im at it, kearnsr, are you a trainspotter or just a general know it all. I find your contribution on this thread to be somewhat "irritating" and non-conclusive.

Ah I love it. Because I dont agree that massive infrastructural projects should be planned designed and implemented in weeks rather than months/years I must be attacking the general consensus.

I welcome any debate concerning any aspect of transport and its related infrastructure. At least I contribute. It doesn’t bother me that you find me “somewhat "irritating" and non-conclusive”. That’s the difference between you and me.

A train spotter? I wouldn’t know one locomotive from the next. I have had the pleasure in driving one in Inchorice many years ago but I don’t think that classes me as a train spotter.

A general know it all? I wouldn’t say that. Its clear that I know a lot more about how key infrastructural projects from concept to operation.

If you want my C.V pm me.

aliveandkicking

kearnsr ruins another thread with childish arguing :rolleyes: All you ever do on here is argue for the sake of arguing particularly with paulm for some strange reason. Grow up ffs.

Irish planning/design/tender process takes too long and there is significant potential to reduce the time taken for major projects without adversely impacting on the planning/design/tender process. Only a moronic gobsh!te would disagree with that.

Between Heuston and Parkwest lies the densely populated areas of Inchicore and Ballyfermot, certainly a lot higher density than somewhere like Howth. There is definitely scope for at least one station between Heuston and Parkwest. Again only a gobsh!te would disagree.

godtabh

I've yet to see any one suggest how they would change the whole design and build process so please enlighten me.

Calina

I am getting a sense of deja vu here.

It's Sunday morning. Engage rationally or do not engage at all. If I see any more abuse on this thread I will close it. Public transport would work a hell of a lot better if the debates around it were rational rather than emotional.

Calina

One of the key issues with planning in this country relates to NIMBYism and the overriding impression I have that there is little sense of community spirit or understanding of the greater good. So to get anything built at all in this country takes a lot of time and trouble as even people who will benefit from a piece of infrastructure will object to it because the construction will cause them grief.

If you try to alter the planning set up in this country - as they did by introducing a charge for lodging a planning objection - there is major outcry (for a while at least) and damaging democracy and stamping on people's opinions.

The big issue with planning is less that it takes a certain amount of time to grind through - this would be fine - if planning was, in fact, integrated with joined up thinking. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, it isn't, even with national spatial strategies. There is a lot of short term thinking in this country and there is a tendency to do as little as you can get away with.

Unfortunately, this isn't really a political issue; it's a social issue. It's the way that Irish people think and behave by and large. Changing the politicians will not work until you change the people who elect them.

_____________________

In general while I have no objection to greater local rail services on the Heuston lines, this really is only ideal if you can still have dedicated tracks to run the express trains in on. Someone is going to have to enlighten me as to whether this is the case now coming into Heuston. A lot of the northern DART lines share track with the Belfast mainline. It's a cheap solution to run local services on mainline rail.

______________________

On the subject of agitating for the Interconnector - writeto your local representatives in the area. Swords people got the DoT to allow Dublin Bus to run the 41X through the tunnel so making those representations is not always useless.

Schuhart

Calina wrote: »

One of the key issues with planning in this country relates to NIMBYism and the overriding impression I have that there is little sense of community spirit or understanding of the greater good.

Absolutely. I was frankly stunned when some folk started making noise about the need to temporarily dig up Stephens Green as part of the necessary works to substantially improve transportation. There was a whole load of guff about the gate on the Grafton Street side of the Green, Fusiliers Arch, as if it was an incredibly important part of the city's heritage. Its only been there since 1907, for fecks sake, and so far as I know the plan is to put it back once the work is finished.

The problem is the NIMBYs tend to either make more noise or at least get more notice. That does place a responsibility on the rest of us to make a stink.

Calina wrote: »

On the subject of agitating for the Interconnector - writeto your local representatives in the area. Swords people got the DoT to allow Dublin Bus to run the 41X through the tunnel so making those representations is not always useless.

Totally agree and, if you don't mind, I'd like to amplify this point. Ireland has a high ratio of public representatives to electorate. Plus, as we know, our TDs have a culture of making themselves available for all kinds of requests, holding 'clinics' and the like. They're accessible, probably more accessible than in any other European country. We've only ourselves to blame if we allow gobbers to fill their ears with specious requests.

I've done a little of this myself recently, which folk can see the origins of here. I have the satisfaction local paper, the Liffey Champion, publishing a story nailing that TD on that point as a direct result of my raising the issue. That's only a small victory, but I take it as an indication of what a single individual can do if they're bothered. All I did was make local journalists aware of my concerns. To be honest, just penning a letter to a TD would be even less work.

Lets not be spectators in our own democracy, because we're leaving the field open to all kinds of nonsense getting ahead of what we can see needs to be done.

IIMII

Schuhart wrote: »

There was a whole load of guff about the gate on the Grafton Street side of the Green, Fusiliers Arch, as if it was an incredibly important part of the city's heritage. Its only been there since 1907

Yup, and sure wasn't the green dug up into trenches in 1916. The park itself is great but we really need this, and sure they can sort out the arch afterwards

godtabh

Calina wrote: »

The big issue with planning is less that it takes a certain amount of time to grind through

The new planning laws allows for key infrastructural projects to be fast tracked. In the past things like Metro North would take a lot longer to go ahead than it would now.

godtabh

IIMII wrote: »

Yup, and sure wasn't the green dug up into trenches in 1916. The park itself is great but we really need this, and sure they can sort out the arch afterwards

From what I've seen I think about 3/4 of the park will be shut down during the construction of metro north and the interconnector. The excvation is between 25-35m deep. The station itself is very large.

But everything will be reinstated hopefully to how it was before

DWCommuter

Hey Calina, can I have permission to respond to Kearnsr without fear of being banned, slated, humiliated, tortured, castrated or simply misunderstood?:D

Calina

At this stage you know the rules of the game here.

There's an in-thread warning.

If you've a point to make and you can make it reasonably, fine, go ahead and make it. If you can't then frankly your point probably isn't worth making.

Your call.

L1011

kearnsr wrote: »

From what I've seen I think about 3/4 of the park will be shut down during the construction of metro north and the interconnector. The excvation is between 25-35m deep. The station itself is very large.

But everything will be reinstated hopefully to how it was before

From all I've seen, only about 1/6th will be closed off - the top corner. The rest (run off tunnels) is being tunnelled under and shouldn't cause problems on ground.

BendiBus

Aard wrote: »

Are there any plans to 'fill in the gaps'? I'm not suggesting adding a station between Hazelhatch and Adamstown, but in the more built-up areas - eg at Kylemore Rd and Con Colbert Rd. Surely with plans to triple capacity there would have to be a higher density of stations?

Cllr Michael Conaghan, local councillor in Ballyfermot and ex Lord Mayor, has something to say on the matter in todays Business Post.

Councillor Michael Conaghan also accused the semi-state company of taking a ‘‘dismissive, arrogant and biased’’ attitude towards the local community.

He criticised Irish Rail for not including the new rail station at Ballyfermot on the Kildare route project and its decision to close the station that existed at Cherry Orchard.

Conaghan claimed Ballyfermot was one of Dublin’s biggest suburbs - with more than 20,000 residents - and that the Kylemore Road was ‘‘choking with through traffic’’.

An Irish Rail spokesman said that, because higher frequency and faster trains were using the new route, a stop at Kylemore Road was not possible.

‘‘We have had an increase of passengers at Parkwest, while numbers using the service at Cherry Orchard were small,” he said. ‘‘When the Dart service is electrified and extended, we can look at the possibility of a station.”

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=35205-qqqx=1.asp

DWCommuter

Calina wrote: »

At this stage you know the rules of the game here.

There's an in-thread warning.

If you've a point to make and you can make it reasonably, fine, go ahead and make it. If you can't then frankly your point probably isn't worth making.

Your call.

You're one tough cookie Calina. I'll ponder that savage response, before I load my gun.;)