Prestige Marques - What Constitues Prestige?

-Chris-

A quick question regarding the perception of a "Prestige" car...

I've put 20 makes above. Some are considered by all to be prestige, some consider themselves prestige but not everyone would agree.

Which do you consider to be prestige? What's your idea of prestige?

VW would consider themselves as more of a premium product than Ford or Nissan, Citroen are angling for some of the German-dominated luxury market, Cadillac are fairly premium in the USA but do they hold the same sway here?

Discuss!


Edit based on some comments below:
I've taken these 20 makes from the SIMI monthly figures. I didn't include the proper prestige marques like Aston, Bently, Bugatti etc. because I don't think anyone could debate those. I'm more interested in how the public perceives a brand versus how the brand perceives itself.

If you ask a Skoda historian, they'll go on about the original Skodas that were really, true luxury cars - competitors to Rolls - but obviously they're not trying to compete on that level now.
VW, on the other hand are trying to punch at a higher weight with the Passat CC (and the Phaeton).
Mazda would consider themselves the luxury Japanese brand.
Can you mention Volvo and Land Rover in the same breath as Merc?
If you go for Alfa Romeo brand training, I'd expect they'll tell you a tale of a marque that competes with BMW on sportiness and prestige.

The variance between a brand's opinion of itself versus the opinion of the public - that's what I'm wondering about...

PaulieC

I'd consider none of these to be 'Prestige'. When I think of prestige, I would think Bentley, Rolls-Royce, maybe Maserati. Most of what is in the list above is ten-a-penny really (not that I have the bob to buy any of them )

siralfalot

VW, BMW, Merc, all common as muck, every chav on the street can have one if he/she wants, how can what is so common be regarded as prestigious??
not one of the cars on that list would be what I would regard as prestigious

Rolls Royce
Bentley
Maybach
Porsche
Ferrari
Maserati
Lamborghini
etc etc.........

now those are prestigious cars :cool:

Aye Kero

Same as. Twenty car manufacturers and no Bentley, Rolls or Bugatti?

peasant

Intersting, really ...As I write (after 10 votes), Mercedes Benz, despite their A-Class, B-Class and involvement in the Smart (never mind their Transporters and trucks) gets 100% planted in the "prestige" group.

Yet VW, despite their Phaeton and their involvement in Bently and the VEYRON (!!) get zilch

superjosh9

In Ireland, I'd put:

BMW, Merc, Audi, Volvo and Saab all in the same category - i.e, prestige (as you put it) - but also offer more depending on the firm, be it sporting pretensions or safety or whatever.

I'd then put:

Lexus and Jag in another category where out and out luxury seems to be the m.o.

I may be tainted having lived in USA for a while though. Another game over there altogether...

Hard to argue VW as a prestige brand with things like the Fox for sale. So I would place VW, Ford, Toyota, Nissan in the same bracket - with Alfa, Honda and Subaru a little above - if only because they are a lot less common over here.

unkel

peasant wrote: »

Yet VW, despite their Phaeton and their involvement in Bently and the VEYRON (!!) get zilch

Not even Audi?

Anyway the poll is about brands, not manufacturers / conglomerates or whatever we should call these behemoths these days

Biro

OK... it's complicated, but I'll try.
Prestige in your context I guess is the marques that are aiming at people who think they're getting a cut above the rest in a luxurious type of way, what ever the level.
Some people above reckon Bently etc are the only Prestige ones, but you might consider them Elitist rather than Prestige. So given that you have "every-day", "sports", "prestigue" and "Elite" then you can pidgeon hole a lot easier. OK, so "sports" might be a bit hard to quantify, and that might be a category that tags along with each of the other three.
In the real world, you can break "every-day" into budget and normal really. And maybe add premium into that bracket too. For example you might have Skoda as the budget "every-day", Seat as the normal "every-day" and VW as the Premium "every-day" brands. Audi definately are aiming at the Prestige end, they directly compete with Mercedes and BMW. In historical automotive terms, you might consider Mercedes as the long-term bench mark for Prestige. BMW are long competing with them, but Merc really started that whole image. Audi are more recent competitors as are Lexus. That puts those 4 brands firmly into the Prestige category in my book. Alfa are a bit more complicated. They have some heritage and tend to give a bit more in terms of styling, both inside and out, for a little more money, similar to Audi. In that respect they are prestige, but on the other hand they don't continue up the rankings to rival the 5 and 7 series (and equivalent) (although the 169 is coming to rival the 5-series type class).
Saab have moved downwards really, they're competing more directly with the Every-day than with the prestigue, and Volvo definately moved down a grade.
"Every-day" brands can have their premium model in order to give more for less over the prestige models, like the Maxima or Camry, but these are kind of bench mark cars, more just to have one for a few sales and to demonstrate upmarket capabilities rather than to seriously challenge the prestige marques.
VW and Honda might be the Premium "every-day" makes, and often can surpass the base models in the Prestige marques, but they remain "Every-day" marques.
Porsche fall just below Elite into Prestige. The Boxter and Cayman help bring them to more people, (not saying that's bad), but Elite brands tend not to do this. Elite brands tend to like people to come looking for them. Also there's a distinct difference in bank account levels between a guy with a 911 in his drive way and a guy with an F430.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

cambo_gueno wrote: »

I'd consider none of these to be 'Prestige'. When I think of prestige, I would think Bentley, Rolls-Royce, maybe Maserati. Most of what is in the list above is ten-a-penny really (not that I have the bob to buy any of them )

Agreed!

biko

I predict BMW getting a high rating simplky because a lot of posters here have beamers. As cambo_gueno above I don't think any of them are very prestigious.
Prestigious cars are cars driven by royalty in my mind - Rolls being the foremost.

-Chris-

OP updated for clarity

MarkN

Very hard to put a blanket on brands, there's just too many models available under one name.

A BMW 335 coupe is not prestige. A 6 series is...possibly.

An Audi A5 is not prestige, an S8 with a Lambo engine is.

Quazzie

Are we forgetting that VW by their very name means its a commons person's car therefore can never be perceived as Prestigious

T-Maxx

Porsche not a prestige car? WTF?:eek:

Quazzie

Whoever voted Honda should be done for trolling. They're only only trying to start an argument

daveharnett

I'd define a pestige car as one which could tempt despite obviously giving less value for money than it's competitors.

Max_Damage

'Mazda' as a prestige marque? No chance! Maybe the failed 'Xedos' brand, but that's it really.

Anyway, the ZIL-41047 for the win:

TomMc

A car hasn't got real prestige unless it is handbuilt by craftsmen with truely bespoke parts. And key mechanical / engineering ones at that, not cosmetic items.

Anything mass produced with generic platforms and parts which is just a posher & tweaked version of a lesser sibling, can at best be a premium product but not prestigious.

When footballers and the like can afford certain cars they lose their kudos. If it is just about money then any well-heeled so and so can buy what they want. Nothing classy about that.

On the other hand a limited production Ferrari for example is something you cannot buy no matter how much money you have if you are not a true fan with the right contacts and buying history to prove it. That makes it prestigious. Or say something like a Bristol for whom you have to kind of prove you are worthy of owning, appreciate the companies engineering philosophy and heritage, before they will go ahead and definitely sell you one. Not merely having the funds to afford one. That is prestigious.

MarkN

Some would argue you're talking about supercars there. Not prestige.

T-Maxx

TomMc wrote: »

A car hasn't got real prestige unless it is handbuilt by craftsmen with truely bespoke parts. And key mechanical / engineering ones at that, not cosmetic items.

Anything mass produced with generic platforms and parts which is just a posher & tweaked version of a lesser sibling, can at best be a premium product but not prestigious.

When footballers and the like can afford certain cars they lose their kudos. If it is just about money then any well-heeled so and so can buy what they want. Nothing classy about that.

On the other hand a limited production Ferrari for example is something you cannot buy no matter how much money you have if you are not a true fan with the right contacts and buying history to prove it. That makes it prestigious. Or say something like a Bristol for whom you have to kind of prove you are worthy of owning, appreciate the companies engineering philosophy and heritage, before they will go ahead and definitely sell you one. Not merely having the funds to afford one. That is prestigious.

You're right - money can't buy everything. But there is no car (in existance) in the world that money can't buy though.

TomMc

But some cars are priceless and their owners cannot be bought.:D

Biro

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Whoever voted Honda should be done for trolling. They're only only trying to start an argument

Same could be said for voters of Chrysler jeep, land rover, volvo, subaru, saab...

Balfa

superjosh9 wrote: »

Alfa, Honda and Subaru a little above - if only because they are a lot less common over here.

Have you ever been inside a Subaru?
Dacia are less common in Ireland, too. I think you're confusing prestige with rarity.

One of Dictionary.com's definitions is "having or showing success, rank, wealth, etc."
I'm a typical 28 year old, and I was lucky to find a great deal on a second hand 3-series. If I stretched myself, I could probably afford to own a brand new 3-series, but I'd be fairly miserable living on ramen noodles three times a day. Therefore to me, a new 3-series is prestigious, showing wealth above my own.

Just because they're common as muck on the streets of Dublin, it doesn't mean the people who own them aren't wealthy or successful. It's no secret that the average wealth in Ireland has improved seen we were young. Are ye never happy?

Like many things of course, prestige is relative. If you want to set the bar at rolls royce, so be it. But when I was growing up, you'd never even think of Rolls Royce, and when my uncle bought a turbocharged Saab 9000, the whole family was very impressed. That, to me, is prestige. I didn't begrudge my uncle his car, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone in a Lexus or Merc today their status.

BlackWizard

Biro wrote: »

Same could be said for voters of Chrysler jeep, land rover, volvo, subaru, saab...

I'd probably rank Honda more prestigous than the above.

I voted Lexus. Although I'd like to vote for a few.

I would just conisder a car brand prestigous if it offers reliability, comfort, great engines and a decent history of the aforementioned traits. But I bet other people see a prestigous car differently. I'm thinking of BMW and their famous driving experience , which could be an important trait for many people.

Biro

BlackWizard wrote: »

I'd probably rank Honda more prestigous than the above.

I voted Lexus. Although I'd like to vote for a few.

I would just conisder a car brand prestigous if it offers reliability, comfort, great engines and a decent history of the aforementioned traits. But I bet other people see a prestigous car differently. I'm thinking of BMW and their famous driving experience , which could be an important trait for many people.

The option was there to vote more than one.

BlackWizard

Biro wrote: »

The option was there to vote more than one.

Doh!

MarkN

Balfa wrote: »

Have you ever been inside a Subaru?
Dacia are less common in Ireland, too. I think you're confusing prestige with rarity.

One of Dictionary.com's definitions is "having or showing success, rank, wealth, etc."
I'm a typical 28 year old, and I was lucky to find a great deal on a second hand 3-series. If I stretched myself, I could probably afford to own a brand new 3-series, but I'd be fairly miserable living on ramen noodles three times a day. Therefore to me, a new 3-series is prestigious, showing wealth above my own.

Just because they're common as muck on the streets of Dublin, it doesn't mean the people who own them aren't wealthy or successful. It's no secret that the average wealth in Ireland has improved seen we were young. Are ye never happy?

Like many things of course, prestige is relative. If you want to set the bar at rolls royce, so be it. But when I was growing up, you'd never even think of Rolls Royce, and when my uncle bought a turbocharged Saab 9000, the whole family was very impressed. That, to me, is prestige. I didn't begrudge my uncle his car, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone in a Lexus or Merc today their status.

Prestige shouldn't be defined by what you feel is out of your reach at the moment, the words prestige car should mean the same to anyone no matter what money they have.

A Porsche is a prestige car to me all day along, a BMW with every single extra is not.

You could very simply say a car needs to be over €100,000 new in Ireland to be prestige I suppose. Two examples that stick out though are Boxsters which are less than 100k new and an M3 which is more but is more of halfway between prestige and supercar IMO.

superjosh9

Wow, times and perceptions post-boom have obviously changed. Can't believe Saab isn't considered a prestige brand? They have two cars on the market - and both are 'executive' types. Surely that's 10 times better than something like Honda - esp since they have so many budget-mobiles like the Jazz for sale?

I remember back in the 80s/90s a Merc E-Class, BMW 5-Series, Saab 9000 and Volvo 740/60 were just about the top in prestige, in reality. (i.e, when S-Class/Rolls were all still super-rare and out of range).

Poor old Saab.

TomMc

Alfa & Jaguar have heritage but today are a pale shadow of their former selves.

Mercedes & BMW use to be about engineering & technical excellence but in recent times have dumbed down many of their mainstream & new niche vehicles, that their focus is more on market share and profits, than the highest level of engineering prowess throughout the range. They have become the later day Cortina Ghia's & GXL's and the like for people who judge a persons dignity on a balance sheet or see themselves as no more than what they own. Junior status symbols and all that. The goalposts just move due to the increased level of affluence in modern Ireland. But oneupmanship and the herd mentality remains the same. Something which is as common as muck, doesn't have prestige. Although prestige is relative to a persons thinking and values, perceptions and socio-economic background.

Audi are just an alternative to the above for the more aesthetically bemused wallflower who think they are more sophisticated.

Lexus just a BMW/Mercedes clone for those who want something exactly like the above, just less common.

Honda & Subaru have some engineering excellence but know their station - A quality product for thinking people. They are content with that and good luck to them, they would not dilute things or sell out on their core principles either, just to climb the greasy pole. Their marques philosophies actually mean a lot to them, that is the Japanese way.

Saab use to stand for something honourable like Honda & Subaru but they have lost their way. Ditto Volvo.

So that leaves Porsche - slowly heading towards a volume market of sorts but the only marque here with any credibility as a prestige brand. And the only manufacturer whos vehicles will not deteriorate significantly in performance terms once properly looked after. That is how it should be and the sign of a premium product. Probably the only manufacture who makes prestige performance cars for the real world.

RobAMerc

to my mind Audi,Porsche, BMW,Mercedes,Lexus,Jaguar,Saab and Volvo are most definitely still very much seen as prestige brands.

They are still seen as a cut above the like of Ford or VW and Honda - that doesn't mean they are any better though!

All the brands you say have devalued themselves by making cheaper cars ???
Would they still be here if they hadn't gone mass market ?

dingding

Depends on the individual models in the marque.

i.e Audi Q7 prestige, Audi A2 not etc.....

While all rolls would be prestige

superjosh9

dingding wrote: »

Depends on the individual models in the marque.

i.e Audi Q7 prestige, Audi A2 not etc.....

While all rolls would be prestige

effin Q7 I hate that car. I know off topic, but I hate it!!!

L-M

I would consider a prestige car maker one that doesn't make a car that is aimed the be mass produced, a car that is designed to have that bit of class and rarity about it. Complete opposite to Volkswagen, "The peoples car". The people who don't make cheap, plastic cars to try and make money. If Porsche had a new hatch back, that was €25,000, despite the rest of their range, i wouldn't consider them a prestige car maker.

Biro

superjosh9 wrote: »

Wow, times and perceptions post-boom have obviously changed. Can't believe Saab isn't considered a prestige brand? They have two cars on the market - and both are 'executive' types. Surely that's 10 times better than something like Honda - esp since they have so many budget-mobiles like the Jazz for sale?

I remember back in the 80s/90s a Merc E-Class, BMW 5-Series, Saab 9000 and Volvo 740/60 were just about the top in prestige, in reality. (i.e, when S-Class/Rolls were all still super-rare and out of range).

Poor old Saab.

Jazz or no Jazz, compare like with like, 93 with Accord and the Honda is better in every single way. (styling might be the only thing that might differ).
Blame Ford, blame Saab, blame whoever, but the 93 is nothing beside it's competitors if you look at the old 900 back then with it's competitors.

-Chris-

So to define a brand Prestigious (I probably should have said Premium for the purposes of the question) the following qualities are important:

Price - has to be out of the reach of most people
Purity - has to be single minded, if you spread it too thin over small and big, quick and slow you dilute the brand
Quality - has to be demonstrably high quality
Exclusivity - everyone can't have one (a component of price, I guess)
Cool - people must aspire to it, it can't be considered exclusive just because nobody wants one

Am I missing anything?

superjosh9

Biro wrote: »

Jazz or no Jazz, compare like with like, 93 with Accord and the Honda is better in every single way. (styling might be the only thing that might differ).
Blame Ford, blame Saab, blame whoever, but the 93 is nothing beside it's competitors if you look at the old 900 back then with it's competitors.

ah yeh, but if someone came up to me and said:
'Hey - I got a new Honda!' - I'd reply, 'fair enough'
but, if someone said:
'Hey - I got a new Saab!' - I'd reply, 'wooooooooooh!'

Surely that counts for something?! i.e, The brand that is Saab, and has been established over a number of years, carries more weight. It's cooler too, if that's any use..

Biro

superjosh9 wrote: »

ah yeh, but if someone came up to me and said:
'Hey - I got a new Honda!' - I'd reply, 'fair enough'
but, if someone said:
'Hey - I got a new Saab!' - I'd reply, 'wooooooooooh!'

Surely that counts for something?! i.e, The brand that is Saab, and has been established over a number of years, carries more weight. It's cooler too, if that's any use..

I used think they were cool, until I drove the 93. Now I don't. Hopefully they can bring themselves back.

Cionád

superjosh9 wrote: »

In Ireland, I'd put:

BMW, Merc, Audi, Volvo and Saab all in the same category - i.e, prestige (as you put it) - but also offer more depending on the firm, be it sporting pretensions or safety or whatever.

I'd then put:

Lexus and Jag in another category where out and out luxury seems to be the m.o.

I may be tainted having lived in USA for a while though. Another game over there altogether...

Hard to argue VW as a prestige brand with things like the Fox for sale. So I would place VW, Ford, Toyota, Nissan in the same bracket - with Alfa, Honda and Subaru a little above - if only because they are a lot less common over here.

I agree with all of the above. I don't think price is the be all and end all, example: X5's cost a fortune but I wouldn't consider them prestigious (or cool!). A 335 on the other hand would be prestigious, and costs less.

TomMc

RobAMerc wrote: »

to my mind Audi,Porsche, BMW,Mercedes,Lexus,Jaguar,Saab and Volvo are most definitely still very much seen as prestige brands.

They are still seen as a cut above the like of Ford or VW and Honda - that doesn't mean they are any better though!

All the brands you say have devalued themselves by making cheaper cars ???
Would they still be here if they hadn't gone mass market ?

Saab & Volvo would not attract the kind of following they did in the past. Most of those owners will have moved on (OK some may have kicked the bucket, but you know what I mean). They don't see the marques in the same light. They have lost their individuality and character (esp Saab) since been taken over by bigger companies and lack of investment/direction. People are just living in the past if they think those cars have any status in automotive terms. May be they still appeal to dentists, solicitors, scarf wearers, you know the type.

Ultimately what has prestige or is perceived to be prestigious to a working class person is on a completely different level to an upper middle class one. It is not PC I know but that is the way it is. A 316i or C180 may be a status symbol to one person and so prestigious but to many others the wheels of a photocopier salesman.

The way it has got it has become more about badges, and an entry level poverty spec car with a coarse underpowered engine and crap gearbox lowers the prestige of its technical tour de force big brother. Manufacturers wanting to increase market share fine, build cheaper cars but not when they dilute their brand by churning out models for Barbie & Ken, hairdressers and the like which do not meet a high minimum standard. Then they lose their prestige.

L-M

AudiChris wrote: »

So to define a brand Prestigious (I probably should have said Premium for the purposes of the question) the following qualities are important:

Price - has to be out of the reach of most people
Purity - has to be single minded, if you spread it too thin over small and big, quick and slow you dilute the brand
Quality - has to be demonstrably high quality
Exclusivity - everyone can't have one (a component of price, I guess)
Cool - people must aspire to it, it can't be considered exclusive just because nobody wants one

Am I missing anything?

Seems to be it in a but shell. Better way of saying what i tried to:o

Holsten

Out of that list, to me a "prestige" car would be Mercs, Porsche, Land Rover, Lexus and Jag's.

smash

prestige is

Aston Martin
Maserati
Ferrari
Lamborghini
Porsche
Bugatti
Bentely
Rolls Royce
Bugatti
AMG Mercs
M series BMWs

ShadowHearth

Merc and jaguars, maybe volvos.

But when audi became or VW? VW allways had a label: "people car".

craichoe

siralfalot wrote: »

VW, BMW, Merc, all common as muck, every chav on the street can have one if he/she wants, how can what is so common be regarded as prestigious??
not one of the cars on that list would be what I would regard as prestigious

Rolls Royce
Bentley
Maybach
Porsche
Ferrari
Maserati
Lamborghini
etc etc.........

now those are prestigious cars :cool:

Ferrari, Porsche, Maserati and Lambo's are all common as muck where I live. I think it depends more on the Model of the car rather than the make.

Bluefoam

Who the hell voted for Mini :pac::pac::pac:

In that case, why isn't Suzuki on the list...

T-Maxx

craichoe wrote: »

Ferrari, Porsche, Maserati and Lambo's are all common as muck where I live. I think it depends more on the Model of the car rather than the make.

Do you have one of each as well?

-Chris-

Bluefoam wrote: »

Who the hell voted for Mini :pac::pac::pac:

In that case, why isn't Suzuki on the list...

I figured, because MINI are part of the BMW stable and would be considered a premium supermini, that I'd leave it in.

r3nu4l

Well I see Porche's and Maseratis every day on my commute to work but they are still prestige cars. Ferrari and Lambo, I don't view as prestige, I view them as cars for 'rich chavs', probably because of footballers and American hip-hop artists.

Maybach is truly prestige as are Rolls and Bentley. For the purposes of everyday models, the likes of Audi, BMW, Jags, Mercs and LExus are definitely a step above Ford, Honda, Renault, Fiat etc and I suppose could be classed as 'everyday prestige'

Bluefoam

AudiChris wrote: »

I figured, because MINI are part of the BMW stable and would be considered a premium supermini, that I'd leave it in.

By the same logic we have Masserati/Fiat, Jaguar/Tata, Bentley/Seat...

I was more surprised that 3 people voted for it...

Zube

r3nu4l wrote: »

Maybach is truly prestige

No, Maybach is the worst in tasteless conspicuous consumption, no class at all. Even a regular big Mercedes is classier than a Maybach.

craichoe

T-Maxx wrote: »

Do you have one of each as well?

How is that relevant ?
I Walk/Cycle/Tram/Train/ICE around where i live
Was thinking a BMW 325D Coupe for long Journeys when i start to do them, I drive simply to drive because its comfortable and i like it, not how it looks to other people.