Evolution...and heaven

flynnc8

Bryan Habana wrote: »

I suppose for me the importance of the bible would be less a record of actual events, but rather stories illustrating how to live ethically and authentically in relation to God. Rather than viewing God as all demanding, I try to take meaning from the biblical passages.

I suppose this is one of those debates that can and will go on forever..
Both sides raise a fair arguement.. I do like the way you have written the above but I dont want to go into too much detail regarding homosexuality or dietary simply because I am aware how these passages are misinterpeted from religion to religion. I simply used them as a way of explaining how "God" demands us to do certain things..

I have always felt that people are expected to believe everything in the bible has really happened.. I never really stopped to think about it being used metephorically..

The only problem I have with this is if the Stories in the bible are written in order to give examples of love and kind hearted gestures, who is to say that God is not a fictional character written to support these examples and give an over all substance to the Bible..??

There for is Heaven not a figment of imagination in order to introduce some sort of reward/reason for living life in this loving manner..??

Dave!

Whats so special about humans?
Nothing other than we have more developed brains and so are capable of the level of conceit necessary to consider ourselves special. I imagine if dogs had our cognitive processes, they would think themselves quite special too. But they don't, so they're content to lick their balls all day.

Are we not just a type of animal that slowly evolved to be smarter...?
Yes

Why do we get a heaven(if it exists) ?, what about all the other animals?
surely they should go to heaven...?
Well that again goes back to human narcissism and the belief that we're special. Only humans think humans are special. Other animals don't give a sh*t about us.

And if i'm doubting about the existence of heaven, and it turns out it does exist, does that send me to hell or expel me from heaven?
I guess if you have faith in the correct god then it wouldn't matter TOO much that you questioned the existance of heaven.

Bryan Habana

flynnc8 wrote: »

The only problem I have with this is if the Stories in the bible are written in order to give examples of love and kind hearted gestures, who is to say that God is not a fictional character written to support these examples and give an over all substance to the Bible..??

There for is Heaven not a figment of imagination in order to introduce some sort of reward/reason for living life in this loving manner..??

You're right to think about these issues for yourself. For me, human consciousness, in terms of it's depth and complexity transcends the four simple elements from which all life is based: carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen. So, I acknowledge the role of an intelligent creater. I believe the depth of human emotion and compassion are far too deep for there not to be a God. I know that doesn't really answer your first question but it's why I choose to believe. Faith (or lack of) will always be a personal choice, which no one can prove or discredit.

I don't believe Heaven is a figment of the imagination (again a personal belief). I don't believe it's a 'made up' ideology from the church so people will live good lives. I believe the positive aspects of a person's nature are often quite natural and instinctual (assuming people don't have hidden agendas i.e altruistic actions to save others with a risk to the self). However I don't pretend to know what Heaven could entail. I imagine whatever it entails we can't simply describe it in terms of sense faculties like sight or hearing or whatever. Describing something metaphysical in physical terms is pointless and creates more confusion.

Again it's a faith system, but it can serve a practical use in this life. It can be a strong coping strategy during times of pressure or stress. It can also be a reassurring feeling to believe that death isn't the end.

Rabid_Ewok

Good job Bryan, I think you pretty much hit he nail on the head. These are a lot of questions we can't answer, for if we knew the answer then we could not have faith. Sorry to everyone who wanted a definite answer, Einstein tried that too, and he's a heck of a lot smarter than I am and he failed.

Zubes

What is God but the cause of God?
What is life but the cause of life?
What am I if not the cause of who I am?
What is heaven if not the cause of heaven?
What is hell if not the cause of hell?

These questions arise because there is desire to make whole. Heaven and Hell are great thoughts. To love hell itself is such a great freedom. And to love heaven more than hell is such a great pain. And love allows us to discriminate against love itself because it loves to love itself? Is freedom not in our choice to love or not to love? Or are we simply love pretending not to be love in order to discover itself again?

Where is God if not in the unity? Each single petal of God's creation (including hell) is necessary to make whole that flower. Yet each petal is beautiful in itself, because it is the handiwork of the divine. Is Hell not beautiful, not perfect, not divine? Is it possible to hate what we really love?

K4t

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I believe some animals go to heaven. There has been scientific research into animal behaviour which demonstrates that some animals, like people, are jerks. I've encountered a few asshole dogs in my time so I guess animals that are asses go to hell, or purgatory.

Ugh beastiality :eek:

This argument is so last century :rolleyes: There is no heaven, we live (eat, excrete, have sex etc. etc.) then we die. That's it. We are just like animals except more evolved. The Bible is the greatest story (fictional) ever told and Religion is the worst atrocity to ever have happened.

di11on

koolkakool wrote: »

Ok, im not quite sure if im in the right place, but i'll continue anyway.

Im sure you all know about evolution, humans evolving from some sort of fish, to apes to humans etc etc...

Anyway, that brings me to my questions...

Whats so special about humans?
Are we not just a type of animal that slowly evolved to be smarter...?
Why do we get a heaven(if it exists) ?, what about all the other animals?
surely they should go to heaven...?
And if i'm doubting about the existence of heaven, and it turns out it does exist, does that send me to hell or expel me from heaven?

Anyway, sorry about all the questions, im just curious about what you think about all of this.

What seperates man from animal is that man is aware of his own existence.

If you assume that God made/designed man with the intention that he be special and above the rest of creation and if you assume that Evolution is the process that lead to this, my way of understanding it is this:

Say God designed a process.... call it evolution... evolution would just be the result of more fundamental processes... i.e. the laws of nature and of physics and of the universe. God created a universe with rules as to how it would interact (laws of physics etc.) which would ultimately lead to man developing self consciousness.

I find it funny the way people think that evolution somehow discounts the idea of God. If you believe in God, all evolution says is how God made things, not weather he did or not. If he created something, or created a process that would lead to something, he created it just as much. It's like arguing over whether the chicken or egg came first.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

kkk, I seriously recommend you don't. You're not going to find the truth in it.

Kelly1 is a Christian so of course he would say that. If you are interested in a non-Christian perspective, then read the book. It shows very nicely how evolution fits in with the idea of heaven.

condra

Whats so special about humans?
You think humans are special? Check out ants some time.

Are we not just a type of animal that slowly evolved to be smarter?
Yes, smarter, self aware, etc.. and we evolved to the point that we change our environment, rather than simply live/die/deal with it.
Something like that.
I guess we are "special" in some ways, or maybe "unique" would be a better word for it.

Why do we get a heaven?
I don't personally believe in any god or afterlife.

And if i'm doubting about the existence of heaven, and it turns out it does exist, does that send me to hell or expel me from heaven?
If there is such thing as God, I doubt he/she/it is as judgemental, bitter and vengeful as the bible makes out.

Capt'n Midnight

koolkakool wrote: »

Ok, im not quite sure if im in the right place, but i'll continue anyway.

Im sure you all know about evolution, humans evolving from some sort of fish, to apes to humans etc etc...

Anyway, that brings me to my questions...

Whats so special about humans?
Are we not just a type of animal that slowly evolved to be smarter...?
Why do we get a heaven(if it exists) ?, what about all the other animals?
surely they should go to heaven...?
And if i'm doubting about the existence of heaven, and it turns out it does exist, does that send me to hell or expel me from heaven?

Anyway, sorry about all the questions, im just curious about what you think about all of this.

our main claim to fame is being to operate in large social groups of individuals and remembering all kinds of stuff and making abstract links from it. we are also extremely good at learning up till about 3 years old


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager - it's better to believe that God exists and be wrong than believe that he doesn't and spend eternity in hell

Pascal did not offer the wager as a proof. [12] It is merely a conclusion to his arguments against certainty that relies on the notion that reason is untrustworthy and that discerning God's actual existence appears to be "a coin toss." If reason can be trusted on the question of God's existence, then the wager simply does not apply.

Botany Bay

Anbody who really understood the Theory Of Evolution, would find it very hard to reconcile that, with a belief in a theistic or creator God.


Secondly, the idea of religion and belief in God, is largely born out of the human ego. Its narcissism, antropocentric nonsense.


Human beings are no more special than bacteria. In the Universal sense. Incredible emotional retardation, still exists it seems, embarrassingly so in the 21st century.

kelly1

Botany Bay wrote: »

Anbody who really understood the Theory Of Evolution, would find it very hard to reconcile that, with a belief in a theistic or creator God.


Secondly, the idea of religion and belief in God, is largely born out of the human ego. Its narcissism, antropocentric nonsense.


Human beings are no more special than bacteria. In the Universal sense. Incredible emotional retardation, still exists it seems, embarrassingly so in the 21st century.

Do you have any idea how insulting that post is to believers like me? Do you have no conscience?

Botany Bay

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you have any idea how insulting that post is to believers like me? Do you have no conscience?

Surely your faith, is not so fragile as to be easily unnerved, by my post??


What exactly is it, that irritates you so much about what i wrote? Did you reflect for a moment on the possibility that i might be right, maybe for just a second? Is that what got to you? Scary thought isn't it? That you might actually be not that special after all. Just a carbon unit, among many trillions, across various kingdoms, genus and species, on a little pale, blue dot. Spinning around in the middle of nowhere. Totally irrelevant, and meaningless.

Then you snapped out of it right? Quickly realising that no, that guy is wrong. Im special, important and belong to a species that is very special. Created by the creator himself. Not just a pinprick in the fabric of space/time. But the central and most important aspect. After all what's the point of life and everything, if you don't get rewarded with an everlasting afterlife. I mean we're not some accident or random event. No way, we were put here for a big purpose, we are special and if you happen to follow the right path. You'll get rewarded for your faith in a paradise, that makes the concept of death, seem, not that bad at all. There you can worship the creator in a weird sort of orgy of adoration and submission. I mean that's what real meaning and purpose is, right?

Anyone who doesn't have that sort of faith in their lives must be missing something right? They're definitely not on the right path, and are lost souls. They should stop and instead refer themselves to a book, not many books, no just one book. One particular book crossing two religions that have existed among the many thousands. It's the right book. It's right, because, well, we just know it's right, right?? Or more likely, it's beacuse it represents the dominant religion from the geographical location, in which we were brought up. But lets ignore that obvious inconvenience and assume it's correct anyway, right?

From there, we can ignore all the horrible aspects of this book, the genocide, murder, rape etc etc etc. Instead we shall cherry pick the nice little bits, and talk about them. This of course represents the creator, so we wouldn't want to have to reflect on anything that could be classed as negative. No way, because he loves us. Isn't that right?? Except for all his obvious intelligence, i mean he created us and the universe so he's clearly smart, he still shows a remarkable dislike for people who don't worship him. Don't worry he has a plan for them people too.

These stories are so comforting and consoling. No wonder people believe in them Walking on water, healing blindness, raising people from the dead, and raising yourself from the dead. Woah!! Impressive stuff. You'd be a fool not to try and get on the good side of a being like that. Look at all the effort he's gone through for us. He even had to stage his own death. Beat that!!!

You're right Kelly. You're story is soo much better than mine. Way more impressive. It's just it lacks something. I wonder what that is. Do you know??

kelly1

BB, an apology would have been fine.

nyarlothothep

K4t wrote: »

Ugh beastiality :eek:

This argument is so last century :rolleyes: There is no heaven, we live (eat, excrete, have sex etc. etc.) then we die. That's it. We are just like animals except more evolved. The Bible is the greatest story (fictional) ever told and Religion is the worst atrocity to ever have happened.

While I don't believe in heaven/hell/religion I do not subscribe to this view. I think our vast intelligence could present the possibility of a new stage in evolution and so comparing us to what has gone before, while reasonable doesn't necessarily make a full comparison in totality. We have nothing analogous on our level or above it to make that comparison yet.

Our ability to reflect on our own evolution and to determine it in addition to our ability to apprehend things which lie beyond our experience would be indicative that we are not necessarily machines, but that we could also be described as gestalts, greater than the sum of our parts.

In addition, I think our thoughts are instances in the history of the universe and art, music etc, shine through in a qualitative sense through the quantitative data. Your meaning in life is different but not definitive, how you perceive it is one perception among many which are recorded instances in existence(imo).

Things like honour, regret, love, intellectual insight, these can be experienced to the extent where they become transcendent in terms of their full realization and so a person can reflect on their life in a way completely at odds with basic physical behaviour. It would be missing the point to compare people to animals in such a way as there are aspects to our existence which differentiate us to a considerable degree.

We don't behave like other animals insofar as survival of the fittest doesn't apply to us. Even Dawkins as I recall, said that it would be a horrible and unnatural state of affairs to apply this logic (which I think is fairly rational, where to draw the line, who has the right to decide who lives and die etc). and that we should celebrate our achievements in art, music, science, literature etc.

My opinion is that we are just (and barely) on the next level up from animals as we know them and that, as a result we could the opportunity to evolve into a species/collective being that could master the universe, at such a level where we would be post physical, and very far removed from animal. This could be our destiny and its not unreasonable to think so, with our exponential advances in science, culture etc.