Russia ''invades'' Georgia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

Russian tanks enter South Ossetia


Georgian jets attack separatists in South Ossetia

Russian tanks are moving towards the capital of Georgia's separatist region of South Ossetia, which has been under heavy bombardment from Georgian forces.

Georgian troops are currently observing a three-hour ceasefire to let civilians leave the besieged capital, Tskhinvali.

Georgia is reported to have said any involvement of Russian forces in the conflict will result in a state of war between the two countries.

Russia says it is sending reinforcements to support peacekeepers.

Reports from Georgia claim Russian jets have attacked an airport near Tbilisi.

Nato, the US and the EU have all called for an immediate end to hostilities.

At least 15 civilians are reported dead, as well as several Russian peacekeepers based in Tskhinvali.


I must protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are. We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished
Dmitry Medvedev
Russian President


Georgian President Mikhail Saakasvili told CNN: "Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory."

Mr Saakashvili, who has called on reservists to sign up for duty, said "150 Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other vehicles" had entered South Ossetia.

"This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory. We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight," Reuters new agency quoted him as saying.

"I must also tell you that Georgian forces have downed two Russian jet fighters over Georgia's territory."

Russia rejected claims its fighters had attacked Georgian targets and that any had been shot down.

The Russian defence ministry told Interfax news agency that reinforcements for Russian peacekeepers had been sent to South Ossetia "to help end bloodshed".

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has promised to defend Russian citizens in South Ossetia.

"I must protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are," Interfax quoted him as saying. "We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished. Those responsible will receive a deserved punishment."

Residents of Tskhinvali were reported to have been sheltering in basements as massive explosions rocked the city. Georgian jets also targeted separatist positions. Both sides blamed each other for breaking an earlier ceasefire agreed on Thursday.

Georgian Foreign Minister Ekaterine Tkeshelashvili told the BBC the present situation was calm as Georgian troops were observing a unilateral ceasefire which started at 1100GMT.

She said they wanted to ensure that any civilians who wanted to leave the conflict zone could do so safely.

Russian troops

An amnesty has also been extended to any separatist fighters willing to lay down their arms, she said.

SOUTH OSSETIA TIMELINE
1991-92 S Ossetia fights war to break away from newly independent Georgia; Russia enforces truce
2004 Mikhail Saakashvili elected Georgian president, promising to recover lost territories
2006 S Ossetians vote for independence in unofficial referendum
April 2008 Russia steps up ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia
July 2008 Russia admits flying jets over S Ossetia; Russia and Georgia accuse each other of military build-up
7 August 2008 After escalating Georgian-Ossetian clashes, sides agree to ceasefire
8 August 2008 Heavy fighting erupts overnight, Georgian forces close on Tskhinvali

On reports of Russian forces moving into South Ossetia, she said the Russian Federation's efforts to get involved militarily had to be stopped.

International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said they had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were having trouble coping with the influx of casualties and ambulances were having trouble reaching the injured.

Irina Gagloyeva, a South Ossetian official in Tskhinvali, described the scene in the besieged city overnight after the Georgian military action started.

"Virtually all the people of the city are in shelters, myself included. It started at midnight, and has barely stopped for a minute," she told the BBC. "Can you hear? That's rockets. All my windows have blown out. Thirty-five thousand residents of our capital have become the hostages of Georgian fascism."

A spokesman for the Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia told Interfax news agency that Georgian shells directly hit barracks in Tskhinvali, killing several peacekeepers.

Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said Georgia had simply run out of patience with attacks by separatist militias in recent days and had had to move in to restore peace in South Ossetia.

"As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations," he told reporters.

Russian passports

Georgia accuses Russia of arming the separatists who have been trying to break away since the civil war in the 1990s. Moscow denies the claim.


Russia called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to respond to the crisis, but members failed to agree on a Russian statement calling on both sides to renounce the use of force.

The BBC's James Rodgers in Moscow says Russia has always said it supports the territorial integrity of Georgia but also that it would defend its citizens. Many South Ossetians hold Russian passports.

Hundreds of fighters from Russia and Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia are reportedly heading to aid the separatist troops.

China, where the Olympic Games opens on Friday, called for worldwide truce during the sporting event.

Pretty big news....

The_Minister

Oh dear.

Georgia must have known this was going to happen when they started the offensive in Southern Ossetia.

Dirk Gently

1000 Georgian troops were just withdrawn from Iraq to boost the military at home.

Flamed Diving

Worrying...

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/81157/61004.jpg

DublinWriter

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Worrying...

Very. I have a feeling this will turn 'big' very soon.

Flamed Diving

Hopefully, theres **** all on the news these days.

bite, my little fishies

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote: »

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/81157/61004.jpg

Please tell me that's a photoshop.

Manic Moran

Please tell me it's not. I could do with the laugh.

NTM

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpNRP9ysixHH3P9izLJRjYT1ATkA

scroll down that one ^^^
and look at the goole map on the right hand side

oh theres more

check THIS OUT

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk

bringitdown

Its war!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY

BenjAii

I have to admit to almost zero prior knowledge on what is going on here.

But Georgia asking the US to intervene on their behalf against Russia - yeah right, good luck with that.

Russia not normally fond of "break away" republics - why with this one ?

So much for the opening of the Olympics being the big news story .............

Its all about the BTC pipeline

wes

Just saw this on the news. Its certainly terrible to see this happen. I don't really know much else about the conflict.

Overheal

is anyone commenting on whether theres a link between this and the opening of the games?

2nd of AUGUST - GIve you an idea of what Russian "PEACEKEEPERS" are like

It said shooting came from three ethnic Georgian villages, but Georgia blamed the separatists for provoking the clashes.

The commander of Georgia's peacekeeping force in the region, Mamuka Kurashvili, was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying South Ossetian peacekeepers shot at a Georgian village and suspected Russian peacekeepers of taking part.

Georgian peacekeepers and police officers returned fire and repelled the attack, he said.

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/08/02/europe/OUKWD-UK-GEORGIA-OSSETIA.php


July 10 - Russia admitted that its military aircraft flew over South Ossetia:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7500584.stm
Since the EU recognizes Georgia's sovereignty over that region, this constitutes as an unauthorized breach of Georgian air space

May 26 - UN supports Georgia's claim that Russia shot down its UAV
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7420130.stm

June 3 - NATO was upset over Russian reinforcements sent to Abkhazia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7434516.stm

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

2nd of AUGUST - GIve you an idea of what Russian "PEACEKEEPERS" are like

Do I sense a hint of sarcasm?

July 10 - Russia admitted that its military aircraft flew over South Ossetia:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7500584.stm
Since the EU recognizes Georgia's sovereignty over that region, this constitutes as an unauthorized breach of Georgian air space

Not if they are in the region as peacekeepers. As they have been for years.

May 26 - UN supports Georgia's claim that Russia shot down its UAV
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7420130.stm

Yeh and? Theres a video of it.

June 3 - NATO was upset over Russian reinforcements sent to Abkhazia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7434516.stm

NATO know where they can go.

Thirdfox

The UN did state that sending spy drones into restricted air space was not a helpful and most likely provocative action taken by the Georgians, though that doesn't make it any less worrying that the Russians blew it out of the sky (maybe they had a right to under international law?)

Given the speed with which the Russians reacted to Georgia’s incursion into South Ossetia, Moscow was clearly ready to intervene. We suspect the Georgians were set up for this in some way, but at this point the buildup to the conflict no longer matters. What matters is the message that Russia is sending to the West.

Russian President Dmitri Medvedev summed this message up best: “Historically Russia has been, and will continue to be, a guarantor of security for peoples of the Caucasus.”

Strategically, we said Russia would respond to Kosovo’s independence, and they have. Russia is now declaring the Caucasus to be part of its sphere of influence. We have spoken for months of how Russia would find a window of opportunity to redefine the region. This is happening now.

All too familiar with the sight of Russian tanks, the Baltic countries are terrified of what they face in the long run, and they should be. This is the first major Russian intervention since the fall of the Soviet Union. Yes, Russia has been involved elsewhere. Yes, Russia has fought. But this is on a new order of confidence and indifference to general opinion. We will look at this as a defining moment.

The most important reaction will not be in the United States or Western Europe. It is the reaction in the former Soviet states that matters most right now. That is the real audience for this. Watch the reaction of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Nagorno-Karabakh and the Balts. How will Russia’s moves affect them psychologically?

The Russians hold a trump card with the Americans: Iran. They can flood Iran with weapons at will. The main U.S. counter is in Ukraine and Central Asia, but is not nearly as painful.

Tactically, there is only one issue: Will the Russians attack Georgia on the ground? If they are going to, the Russians have likely made that decision days ago.

Focus on whether Russia invades Georgia proper. Then watch the former Soviet states. The United States and Germany are of secondary interest at this point.

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/intelligence_guidance_conflict_south_ossetia

wasper

clown bag wrote: »

1000 Georgian troops were just withdrawn from Iraq to boost the military at home.

It makes you wonder a country that can't defend itself & have domestic problems what's it doing invading Iraq in the first place?

wasper

wasper wrote: »

It makes you wonder a country that can't defend itself & have domestic problems what's it doing invading Iraq in the first place?

they were doing it to lick up to the Americans, the Americans want the BTYC pipeline so diversify their energy from the middle east and all its associated problems but the countries they diversify to have their own problems.

They gave Georgia alot of miltary hardware and training and the US have bases in Georgia. The US wanted Georgia to take control of South Ossetia for the security of the BTC pipeline. Russia want a stake in this too and have been training and arming the South Ossetians while having their own army ready and waiting on the border.

Real cold war era proxy war type stuff. The big powers gettin involved and the people who will suffer the most are the civilians and the armies they are arming.

wasper

Deleted User wrote: »

they were doing it to lick up to the Americans, the Americans want the BTYC pipeline so diversify their energy from the middle east and all its associated problems but the countries they diversify to have their own problems.

They gave Georgia alot of miltary hardware and training and the US have bases in Georgia. The US wanted Georgia to take control of South Ossetia for the security of the BTC pipeline. Russia want a stake in this too and have been training and arming the South Ossetians while having their own army ready and waiting on the border.

Real cold war era proxy war type stuff. The big powers gettin involved and the people who will suffer the most are the civilians and the armies they are arming.

If you go to the south of Georgia, its has vast areas cordoned off, access is very limited. Reason is the land is bought by Israeli military industry & used to test weapons.

partholon

things seem to be heating up according to the irish times

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0809/breaking97.htm

as well as the fighting intensifying it seems russias doing a bit of saber rattling towards the west in relation to the supply of arms and training.

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358

An Associated Press reporter who visited the town of Gori shortly after the Russian raid Saturday saw several apartment buildings ravaged by the Russian strike and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians, including elderly people, women and children.

The Russian planes appeared to target a military base on the outskirts of Gori which sustained hits, but they also struck living quarters nearby.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fVKS5slf10A13Dj_uIdaZ4QD92EMFQG0

jmayo

BenjAii wrote: »

I have to admit to almost zero prior knowledge on what is going on here.

But Georgia asking the US to intervene on their behalf against Russia - yeah right, good luck with that.

Russia not normally fond of "break away" republics - why with this one ?

So much for the opening of the Olympics being the big news story .............

US are very friendly with Georgia and it's location is very important, what with the big pipeline going through the country from Baku on Caspian Sea and Russia not happy it is being bypassed on way to Black Sea.

The breakaway area South Ossetia (not republic but formerly autonomous administrative areas) and the other breakaway area, Abkhazia, are actually in Georgia this time and not in Russia although Chechnya is just across the border.
Ethnic Georgians were driven out of these areas in the early 90s and the Georgians claim the Russians have been backing these breakaway areas.
The Russians now claim they went in to safeguard Russian citizens, the ones they have just being giving passports to :rolleyes:

The Russians have been leaning on Georgia for a while now by trying to wreck the economy by banning wine imports and increasing gas prices.

That whole Caucasus area has had a few simmering arguments since the breakup of the Soviet Union what with Armenia / Azerbaijan and the Nagorno-Karabakh war in early 90s.
Indeed some of these arguments date back to before the Soviet Union was formed.
Also remember not far away across the Caspian Sea, you have all the "Stans" including Afghanistan and Uzbekistan with their islamic fundamentalists.

Did anybody also notice Georgian forces using Land Rovers rather than old Soviet era equipment.

Zambia

jmayo wrote: »

Did anybody also notice Georgian forces using Land Rovers rather than old Soviet era equipment.

Yes I did. Personnally this is a little fire that is going to have to burn itself out any foriegn intervention (Military) would be bad. The georgians have basically opened pandoras box..

Dirk Gently

wasper wrote: »

It makes you wonder a country that can't defend itself & have domestic problems what's it doing invading Iraq in the first place?

Strategic reasons, precisely because it has problems and can't defend itself.

making friends with the big boys. Showing support for the US / west. trying to secure allies who would help them if they ever needed it. Being next door to Russia, who has troops and supports separatists in their own country would suggest they need all the back up they can get. No doubt given their geographical position and the fact that a friendly Georgia would secure energy for the west, the Georgians have already been courted and given assurances by the US. It seems these assurances gave the Georgian president a false sense of security.

Perhaps Georgia made a massive gamble and chose to escalate the situation in the hope that they could secure their full boarders without Russian interference due to the fact that Georgia is an ally of the US and NATO. Perhaps Russia escalated the situation because they new the Georgian president could be manipulated into doing such a thing, only Russia new the west would sit by and leave them to their fate.

At the end of the day it was a good strategy in principle from Georgia to build relations with the west but a woefully mistimed escalation just played into Russians hands. Now Russia has the opportunity to completely remove Georgian troops from the disputed regions and also make the West look inept and unable to defend it's allies, which in turn makes other nations think twice about shunning Russia for the west.

Bottom line, Georgia has been out played and manipulated into making a premature stand against Russia. Looks like Russia just secured a new oil pipeline and stuck 2 fingers up to western expansion.

sink

The escalation has everything to do with the western powers supporting independence for Kosovo. I find it a bit hypocritical of the west to support independence for one and not for the other. Historically both regions have similar history, Kosovo was always a Serbian territory that was settled by Albanians in recent times and South Ossetia was historically always Georgian that was settled by ethnic Russians in recent times. Morally one has just as much right to independence as the other.

The difference is that the geo-politics of the regions are very different. The west has a lot to gain from Georgia mainly energy but also militarily (Georgia is extremely close to Iraq/Iran). Russia has a lot to loose both in energy and politically/militarily. Russia does want to avoid being completely surrounded by NATO members loyal to the west as this will seriously damage it's power and influence over it's closest neighbours. It also does not want more competition in supplying oil and gas to the west as this is it's main source of power.

This war could have been avoided if the west did not push for Kosovo's independence. This has been another example that every bold action has an equal and opposite reaction.

wasper

clown bag wrote: »

Strategic reasons, precisely because it has problems and can't defend itself.

making friends with the big boys. Showing support for the US / west. trying to secure allies who would help them if they ever needed it. Being next door to Russia, who has troops and supports separatists in their own country would suggest they need all the back up they can get. No doubt given their geographical position and the fact that a friendly Georgia would secure energy for the west, the Georgians have already been courted and given assurances by the US. It seems these assurances gave the Georgian president a false sense of security.

Perhaps Georgia made a massive gamble and chose to escalate the situation in the hope that they could secure their full boarders without Russian interference due to the fact that Georgia is an ally of the US and NATO. Perhaps Russia escalated the situation because they new the Georgian president could be manipulated into doing such a thing, only Russia new the west would sit by and leave them to their fate.

At the end of the day it was a good strategy in principle from Georgia to build relations with the west but a woefully mistimed escalation just played into Russians hands. Now Russia has the opportunity to completely remove Georgian troops from the disputed regions and also make the West look inept and unable to defend it's allies, which in turn makes other nations think twice about shunning Russia for the west.

Bottom line, Georgia has been out played and manipulated into making a premature stand against Russia. Looks like Russia just secured a new oil pipeline and stuck 2 fingers up to western expansion.

Having Nato basis is like buying a car insurance to cover accidents. Well the Russians have invaded & Nato has failed to respond or in the metaphor failed to pay. So how will the Georgian government respond to this situation?

OgreSwamp

At the moment more then 2K ossetian civilians were killed by georgian troops. Fell the difference. 50 against 2000. It's bloody genocide!

Slav

sink wrote: »

Historically both regions have similar history, Kosovo was always a Serbian territory that was settled by Albanians in recent times and South Ossetia was historically always Georgian that was settled by ethnic Russians in recent times.

Not quite right.

1. Ossetia (Alania) has always been populated mostly by Ossetians. In South Ossetia there are very few ethnic Russians: less then 3%. This figure did not see any major fluctuations for at least past 50 years.

2. Kosovo is where Serbia was born. Serbs lost it in war in medieval ages and were always mourning it. It is a historical and spiritual heart of Serbian nation.
South Ossetia was NOT historically Georgian. In fact it was under Georgian rule for a very short (though very recent) period of its history: during Soviet times. Also de jure it has also been a part of Georgia after the USSR collapse but de facto it is independent after the 1990-1992 war.

eoin5

OgreSwamp wrote: »

At the moment more then 2K ossetian civilians were killed by georgian troops. Fell the difference. 50 against 2000. It's bloody genocide!

When you consider were only talking about a 70000 population total its a very serious tempest!

Happy Monday

Interesting how the Americans ask for Russia to stop this.

They invaded Iraq and slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians but this is ignored!

Makes you think doesn't it - or at least it should!!

jady88

Happy Monday wrote: »

Interesting how the Americans ask for Russia to stop this.

They invaded Iraq and slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians but this is ignored!

Makes you think doesn't it - or at least it should!!

So america shoud just stay silent?

Happy Monday

America should apologise for the mass murders it has been responsible for across the world and then endeavour to change its ways.

Then, it can begin to judge Russia, Zimbabwe etc.

Hopefully Obama will come to power and begin this process....

sink

jady88 wrote: »

So america shoud just stay silent?

I think America is too quick to prejudge the situation. I don't trust the Georgian government any more than the Russian government. European and American news agencies are quick to put up a pro Georgian slant. All of their info seems to be coming from Georgian sources, no western journalists seem to be on the ground. Russia today is obviously biased and paints a completely different picture although they have reporters in the war zone. I don't believe anyone is reporting the full facts somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Happy Monday

sink wrote: »

I think America is too quick to prejudge the situation. I don't trust the Georgian government any more than the Russian government. European and American news agencies are quick to put up a pro Georgian slant. All of their info seems to be coming from Georgian sources, no western journalists seem to be on the ground. Russia today is obviously biased and paints a completely different picture although they have reporters in the war zone. I don't believe anyone is reporting the full facts somewhere in the middle is the truth.

This is exactly the point - western media agencies are showing photos of georgian refugees - yet when america invaded iraq we got nothing like that and no tally on civilian deaths was produced - makes you think - who really are the bad guys out there??

sink

Happy Monday wrote: »

This is exactly the point - western media agencies are showing photos of georgian refugees - yet when america invaded iraq we got nothing like that and no tally on civilian deaths was produced - makes you think - who really are the bad guys out there??

My point is that there is no bad/good black/white. You can't call America bad because of it's warped view of the world. From their point of view they were doing the right think and even some Iraqis supported them. This is so far away from the the original topic and should be debated in another thread if you want to take it further.

jady88

First of all I would trust the Georgian government a lot more than the Russian one, the behavior of Russia over the past couple of years is less than inspiring.

There are lots of reporters on the ground? Watch the BBC, if anything I'm surprised that the reporting hasn't been more in Georgia's favour.

I don't think it's prejudging to call for a cessation on all sides.

sink

jady88 wrote: »

First of all I would trust the Georgian government a lot more than the Russian one, the behavior of Russia over the past couple of years is less than inspiring.

There are lots of reporters on the ground? Watch the BBC, if anything I'm surprised that the reporting hasn't been more in Georgia's favour.

I don't think it's prejudging to call for a cessation on all sides.

Are you aware that the Georgian president has been accused of plotting to assassinate the leader of the opposition? And by his own deputy no less! I wouldn't place any faith in the reliability of Georgian sources. I'm not defending Russia by any means, one seems to be as bad as the other in my view. Georgia is actively trying to drag the west to satisfy it's own political agenda. The fog of war has fallen it may take weeks for it to clear.

Happy Monday

sink wrote: »

My point is that there is no bad/good black/white. You can't call America bad because of it's warped view of the world. From their point of view they were doing the right think and even some Iraqis supported them. This is so far away from the the original topic and should be debated in another thread if you want to take it further.

Sink - wake up and smell the coffee baby!! - America invaded Iraq because it wanted long term control of Middle Eastern oil reserves - this is a central tent of neo conservative thinking from Richard Pearle and others which has influenced this administration - Russia equally is taking this action for reasons of control over energy resources - there is no differnce between either action, what I'm saying is that repoting on these issues should be the same.

sink

Happy Monday wrote: »

Sink - wake up and smell the coffee baby!! - America invaded Iraq because it wanted long term control of Middle Eastern oil reserves - this is a central tent of neo conservative thinking from Richard Pearle and others which has influenced this administration - Russia equally is taking this action for reasons of control over energy resources - there is no differnce between either action, what I'm saying is that repoting on these issues should be the same.

Another theory is that the Neo-cons needed to paint a picture of a lethal enemy that they could unify the American people behind a great moral imperative in order to halt social decline. Sounds just a plausible as what you believe but I need more evidence to fully commit to either theory. Alternatively it is perfectly plausible that there were no hidden agendas and that the neo-cons really believed they were telling the truth. Fact is I don't know for certain what America's motives were and neither do you. Cheney, Rusmfeld and Bush are possibly the only ones that know their true motives.

Happy Monday

sink wrote: »

Another theory is that the Neo-cons needed to paint a picture of a lethal enemy that they could unify the American people behind a great moral imperative in order to halt social decline. Sounds just a plausible as what you believe but I need more evidence to fully commit to either theory. Alternatively it is perfectly plausible that there were no hidden agendas and that the neo-cons really believed they were telling the truth. Fact is I don't know for certain what America's motives were and neither do you. Cheney, Rusmfeld and Bush are possibly the only ones that know their true motives.

Cheney, Bush, Pearle, etc believe that Amercia needs to take direct unilateral action to solidify America's dominant economic and political position in the world today - ok, that's fine - conquer and colonise as you will - but that then doesn't give them the right to condemn Russia, China or anyone else for doing the same thing.

Sink - I think you need to realise that the good old US of A is not the force for good in the world I accept it once was under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy.

sink

Happy Monday wrote: »

Cheney, Bush, Pearle, etc believe that Amercia needs to take direct unilateral action to solidify America's dominant economic and political position in the world today - ok, that's fine - conquer and colonise as you will - but that then doesn't give them the right to condemn Russia, China or anyone else for doing the same thing.

Sink - I think you need to realise that the good old US of A is not the force for good in the world I accept it once was under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy.

I didn't say they were a force for good, I don't think they're an evil empire out to pillage and plunder either. As I said before things are rarely black and white. There are many opinions on the Iraq war and I can't figure out who is right and I'm not going to follow empty rhetoric. Solid evidence is the only thing that will convince me of anything, until such evidence comes forward I will keep an open mind. I'm not saying you are wrong I just can't commit to your theory until I see more evidence.

Call Me Jimmy

Happy Monday wrote: »

Cheney, Bush, Pearle, etc believe that Amercia needs to take direct unilateral action to solidify America's dominant economic and political position in the world today - ok, that's fine - conquer and colonise as you will - but that then doesn't give them the right to condemn Russia, China or anyone else for doing the same thing.

Sink - I think you need to realise that the good old US of A is not the force for good in the world I accept it once was under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy.

You need to start reading people's posts properly before you begin patronising anyone.

Happy Monday

sink wrote: »

I didn't say they were a force for good, I don't think they're an evil empire out to pillage and plunder either. As I said before things are rarely black and white. There are many opinions on the Iraq war and I can't figure out who is right and I'm not going to follow empty rhetoric. Solid evidence is the only thing that will convince me of anything, until such evidence comes forward I will keep an open mind. I'm not saying you are wrong I just can't commit to your theory until I see more evidence.

Consider this - the general assembley and security council of the UN failed to support the US in its actions in Iraq on the basis that it was a unilateral militaristic invasion akin to the imperalist ventures of European powers in the 19th century.

Many people in the US and the the majority of people in the UK have the same opinion.

I am pro Amercian in many ways but on this issue and this time the USA has lost all moral authority - it has no right to condemn any other power in the world and it should hang its head in shame.

sink

Happy Monday wrote: »

Consider this - the general assembley and security council of the UN failed to support the US in its actions in Iraq on the basis that it was a unilateral militaristic invasion akin to the imperalist ventures of European powers in the 19th century.

Many people in the US and the the majority of people in the UK have the same opinion.

I am pro Amercian in many ways but on this issue and this time the USA has lost all moral authority - it has no right to condemn any other power in the world and it should hang its head in shame.

Think of who sits on the security council. It's as if you hold the monkey's word above the donkey's. The security council is by no means a great moral authority on anything and is more of a political tool to pursue individual agendas. I don't understand why Irish people in particular seem to have absolute faith in the security council.

Many people believe in a divine being too, you'll find that I'm like a hung jury on that one too.

Happy Monday

Happy Monday wrote: »

Cheney, Bush, Pearle, etc believe that Amercia needs to take direct unilateral action to solidify America's dominant economic and political position in the world today - ok, that's fine - conquer and colonise as you will - but that then doesn't give them the right to condemn Russia, China or anyone else for doing the same thing.

Sink - I think you need to realise that the good old US of A is not the force for good in the world I accept it once was under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy.

Kennedy was the one who got involved in the Vietnam war!?!

The US invaded Iraq because it suited them, they needed to get the hell out of Saudi because their bases were causing unrest because the "infidels" were in their holy land. This caused two problems 1) it threatened the stability of the pro west monarch and 2) it sent people to the local Al Qaeda recruiter (most of the hijackers were Saudis).

They could Kill 3 birds with one stone by invading Iraq:
1) Sort out the EPIC FAIL that was containment of Saddam (lets not forget he did invade Saudi Arabia after taking Kuwait).
2) Move the troops out of Saudi and into Iraq
3) Open up Iraqs oil to the world market.

Iran is a thorn in the side of the US because they threaten to close the straits of Hormuz(which would be VERY bad for the world economy go google how much of the worlds oil % passes through there) and they are an Islamic Fundamentalist state which actually DO want the WORLD to become muslim then there will be no problems... from Ahmadinejad`s latest interview

In a nutshell, distance and — indifference to the teachings of the divine prophets and our ethical standards are the root causes that beguile humanity today.

That is why the teachings of divine prophets, in other words, a belief in the almighty, justice, friendship, and peace and love for fellow human beings, we should return to those. If these come to prevail around the world, they will come to see that the world will be full of peace and friendship

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25887437/

The US knows well all the hassle that comes with getting oil from the Middle east which is why it has a policy of energy diversification which includes Georgia. Russia wants to play the game too and a very important pipeline runs through Georgia...

This isnt about alleged genocide in South Ossetia this is about oil and gas.

Everybody wants oil its limited. He who has oil has power and control over others economies. Russia turned off the gas to Germany and Ukraine in 2006 when it got cranky....remember...