Sharkscope et. al. and The Data Protection Act.

NickyOD

I don't like sharkscope and I don't like any database that contains information about me being freely or otherwise available for anyone to get at. In fact I've come to the conclusion that these sites are actually completely illegal. It's just that no one has challenged them on it yet.

I'm also pretty sure it's very illegal to charge me for the right to have my own data protected, AND to charge me for the privilege of accessing ANY data they have on me because this is effectively MY property. Nor do I believe it is legal to allow people to effectively buy personal info about other people without their knowledge.

I have come to this decision based on info provided in The Data Protection Act (1988) under the heading of "Your Rights" see here

I'm particularly interested in the following sections.

4. Right to establish existence of personal data

If you believe that an entity holds personal data in relation to you, you have a right on request to be informed within 21 days if this is the case. If the entity does hold personal data relating to you it must also then give you a description at that time of the data held and the purposes for which it is held.

There is no fee for the making of or compliance with such a request.

6. Right to Block certain users:

This means I can stop my info being shared with others without having to pay for the privilege.

7. Right to have my name removed from a direct marketing list.

Sharkscope's front page is effectively a marketing tool to entice people to buy more data. You have the right to deny people access to this.

8. Right to object

Where the data controller is processing data for the exercise of official authority, in the public interest, or for his/her own ‘legitimate interests’ and you feel that the use of your data involves substantial and unwarranted damage or distress to you, you may request a data controller to stop using your personal data, or not to start using the data.

The right does not apply if:

you have already given your consent to the use of your data
the use is necessary for a contractual obligation to which you have agreed
the use is for electoral purposes by election candidates or political parties, or
the use is required by law.
The electoral register or other personal data required by law to be made public, such as a shareholders register, cannot be used for direct marketing unless you have been given an opportunity to object to such use. These objection rights are free of charge.

So, I am interested to know from people here what there thoughts are on this and has anyone tried to have their data protected.Do my rights under the Data protection act extend to online companies or is this just in Ireland. If not then what laws must these site adhere to?

Nicky.

mickc

interesting thought

although from the definition of personal data they would probably argue that unless your Sn is your real name that you cant be personally identified from it.


"Personal data means data relating to a living individual who is or can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information that is in, or is likely to come into, the possession of the data controller. This can be a very wide definition depending on the circumstances."

Mellor

To be honest, I don't think your argument holds much weight
All of the info contain within sharkscope is readily available. STTs results are available for every single STT via the poker sites. All sharkscope is doing it collecting it. This is not info they obtained directly from you, and depending on the T&Cs of each poker site, it could easily be the "property" of the site. As in they [the poker site] reserve the rights to results to use as they wish (normally for advertising, Sunday millions, WCOOP, past winners etc).

While you have referenced the Data protection act, you overlooked "the freedom of information act 2003" (and previous versions)
I'm sure somebody with substainal knowledge of both acts might be able to give a better (read educated ) view

NickyOD

mickc wrote: »

interesting thought

although from the definition of personal data they would probably argue that unless your Sn is your real name that you cant be personally identified from it.


"Personal data means data relating to a living individual who is or can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information that is in, or is likely to come into, the possession of the data controller. This can be a very wide definition depending on the circumstances."

Does that mean mickc isn't a real person since it's just a username?

AdMMM

You do realise that your argument is pointless because you're quoting Irish laws for a website operating outside of Ireland?

mickc

NickyOD wrote: »

Does that mean mickc isn't a real person since it's just a username?

much as it pains me to say it, mickc isnt a real person. It's a username to protect my identity.:cool:

NickyOD

Mellor wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think your argument holds much weight
All of the info contain within sharkscope is readily available. STTs results are available for every single STT via the poker sites. All sharkscope is doing it collecting it. This is not info they obtained directly from you, and depending on the T&Cs of each poker site, it could easily be the "property" of the site. As in they [the poker site] reserve the rights to results to use as they wish (normally for advertising, Sunday millions, WCOOP, past winners etc).

While you have referenced the Data protection act, you overlooked "the freedom of information act 2003" (and previous versions)
I'm sure somebody with substainal knowledge of both acts might be able to give a better (read educated ) view

Yes I'd be interested to hear from someone who's an expert in data protection but I still think these sites are in breach of some of these laws. Can you tell me how the freedom of inflation act relates to this though?

I know that they are collecting the info elsewhere but that doesn't mean it's readily available elsewhere to anyone, because the volume of data they collect is so huge. For example if you wanted to find out my ROI% on a particular site you have to know the ID of every one of the thousands of STTs I've ever played and a find a way to query the the data yourself. With shark-scope some of this info is available for free with a mouse-click but not all of it. That comes for a fee. This is what irritates me the most about it. These sites are taking my data which is my property and selling it.

I'm pretty sure Sharkscope cannot charge me for the privilege of protecting my own data, and regardless of the T&C's of any poker site I sign up to I still have the right to have my data protected when it is obtained from them by a third party.

NickyOD

mickc wrote: »

much as it pains me to say it, mickc isnt a real person. It's a username to protect my identity.:cool:

What if Mickc had an offshore bank account and the company that runs these accounts gave all the info relating to your incomings and outgoings from this account to a third party who published it on the web. Would you be happy?

Also although you username is not your real name and doesn't tell me where you live, that is actually only another very small step.

NickyOD

AdMMM wrote: »

You do realise that your argument is pointless because you're quoting Irish laws for a website operating outside of Ireland?

Read ALL of my post, particularly the last two lines. There are data protection acts covering most countries including the US.

Anyway does this mean in order for anyone to give away any info they like about me they just have to be based elsewhere? Can neteller legally send the whole world my bank statements?

ArmaniJeanss

NickyOD wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Sharkscope cannot charge me for the privilege of protecting my own data, and regardless of the T&C's of any poker site I sign up to I still have the right to have my data protected when it is obtained from them by a third party.

Do they charge you, I thought all you had to do was drop them an email with the screen name that you wanted removed from the database (As an aside I've never seen a logical reason why a winning player would want their data hidden).

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote: »

Can you tell me how the freedom of inflation act relates to this though?

Those pesky economists!

Hectorjelly

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Do they charge you, I thought all you had to do was drop them an email with the screen name that you wanted removed from the database (As an aside I've never seen a logical reason why a winning player would want their data hidden).

So that bad players didn't avoid them, and that railbirds wouldnt distract them?

ArmaniJeanss

Hectorjelly wrote: »

So that bad players didn't avoid them, and that railbirds wouldnt distract them?

I'd have thought that the majority of bad players won't have heard of SharkScope so that doesn't really matter.
(And if my +ROI stops another good player sitting down against me then brilliant).
As for railbirds, are they that much of an issue, never seen one in over 5000 STTs i've played.


For Nicky,
Is there an argument that because Poker is a 'game'/'Sporting event' that the results are public domain much like the results of a chess tournament or a darts tournament.

Glowingmind

Does this mean that sites like pokernews should start asking permission before they report on players in tournaments?

Hectorjelly

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd have thought that the majority of bad players won't have heard of SharkScope so that doesn't really matter.
(And if my +ROI stops another good player sitting down against me then brilliant).
As for railbirds, are they that much of an issue, never seen one in over 5000 STTs i've played.

I wasn't talking about STTs, just poker in general. Surely though your Sharkscope data may make players play differently against you

NickyOD

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Do they charge you, I thought all you had to do was drop them an email with the screen name that you wanted removed from the database (As an aside I've never seen a logical reason why a winning player would want their data hidden).

From the Sharkscope FAQ.

"Can I be removed from the database?
As of the 21st May 2006 we have a new data removal policy. You may click here or stating the username(s)/network(s) you wish to be removed and your data will be made inaccessible to all free users. Paying subscribers will still be able to see your number of games played, along with your ROI data and form. All other statistics including average profit, average stake and total profit will be inaccessible, along with all the remaining graphs. Hence, once blocked in this manner, no one will be able to calculate your total amount won or lost. All usernames blocked prior to this policy change will remain completely blocked from all users."

Ramiriquez

I think Mellor hit the nail on the head. When you choose to play in the very public domain that is online poker you are automatically offering up the info for anybody to see (results, prize money, etc.)

Anybody, should they have have the time or the reasoning to do so, could ghost you for a period of time and collect the same info. I don't think you can object to this? I guess in saying this, then Sharkscope et al aren't charging for the info per se, more the collation of a large amount of it.

Just my opinion, will be interesting to see what someone with some knowledge in this area has to say.

ArmaniJeanss

Hectorjelly wrote: »

Surely though your Sharkscope data may make players play differently against you

Almost certainly it does, but I think its almost always a good thing because usually it'll only be other good players that will know of my Sharkscope figures. They will generally tighten up against me, or decide to pick on the weaker players instead which is fine by me in STTs.

NickyOD

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd have thought that the majority of bad players won't have heard of SharkScope so that doesn't really matter.
(And if my +ROI stops another good player sitting down against me then brilliant).
As for railbirds, are they that much of an issue, never seen one in over 5000 STTs i've played.


For Nicky,
Is there an argument that because Poker is a 'game'/'Sporting event' that the results are public domain much like the results of a chess tournament or a darts tournament.

The thing is it's not just a leader-board. The stars TLB doesn't tell you how much profit anyone makes. I mean look at RooneyDives. :pac: j/k

Last year when I was running much better I had guys on iPoker unregistering from STTs when I registered. I know this happens a lot anyway but at the $200 level it was hard for me to get a game, particularly on one account when I ran at a sick 30% ROI for ages. I never had the same problem when I ran break even for nearly 600 STTs. There's no way of telling if this is down to sharkscope but I'd rather that possibility was removed.

Also, what about datamining? What about fish who like some privacy about how much they are losing. It's not really anyone's business is it? Is it really fair/right for a site to provide this personal info at a price to the sharks?

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote: »

I wasn't talking about STTs, just poker in general. Surely though your Sharkscope data may make players play differently against you

I would definitely find it useful. Players with high ROI% get respect, i.e. i make bigger folds. Players with a bad ROI% get less respect.

Drakar

I dont think baseball players in the states can expect that they can ask that people stop collecting stats on them (or soccer players in the uk, though stats arent as popular here yet). Might be interesting to see the legal poo flinging though all right.

strewelpeter

All the data that sharkscope and opr etc. use has already put into the public domain by your decision to play publicly available games.
Using a username that you can personally be linked to is your choice.

Ace2007

So basically you want everyone to stop using sharkscope, pokertracker, holdem manager indeed everything that uses mining - sure maybe we should close down the poker fourm while we're at it, i looked in the bad beat section not so long ago - all you see are comments about xyz is so bad, or in the hand history section, there are name of hundreds of players in and around dublin casino's - people's names are mention all over the place - like what was he doing sticking his dough in with 78suited....,
go to the tournament section - you can search throught pages and find out that abc won €xx,000 about of money - where do you want to stop.. As a side - someone's name being published on sites like this is 10 times worst than your screename being made pubic, (or is this just a semi brag) when i sit down everyone gets up!!!!!!

Like previous posters' said anyone can get all this information if they so wish, just cause these sites provide the information handy for everyone is hardly a crime....

I'm sure in the past you have used it for searching other people's before you got lucky and won money, so just grow up.

HIVeindhoven

Maybe you should get in touch with Amnesty International.

NickyOD wrote: »

I don't like sharkscope and I don't like any database that contains information about me being freely or otherwise available for anyone to get at. In fact I've come to the conclusion that these sites are actually completely illegal. It's just that no one has challenged them on it yet.

I'm also pretty sure it's very illegal to charge me for the right to have my own data protected, AND to charge me for the privilege of accessing ANY data they have on me because this is effectively MY property. Nor do I believe it is legal to allow people to effectively buy personal info about other people without their knowledge.

I have come to this decision based on info provided in The Data Protection Act (1988) under the heading of "Your Rights" see here

I'm particularly interested in the following sections.

4. Right to establish existence of personal data

If you believe that an entity holds personal data in relation to you, you have a right on request to be informed within 21 days if this is the case. If the entity does hold personal data relating to you it must also then give you a description at that time of the data held and the purposes for which it is held.

There is no fee for the making of or compliance with such a request.

6. Right to Block certain users:

This means I can stop my info being shared with others without having to pay for the privilege.

7. Right to have my name removed from a direct marketing list.

Sharkscope's front page is effectively a marketing tool to entice people to buy more data. You have the right to deny people access to this.

8. Right to object

Where the data controller is processing data for the exercise of official authority, in the public interest, or for his/her own ‘legitimate interests’ and you feel that the use of your data involves substantial and unwarranted damage or distress to you, you may request a data controller to stop using your personal data, or not to start using the data.

The right does not apply if:

you have already given your consent to the use of your data
the use is necessary for a contractual obligation to which you have agreed
the use is for electoral purposes by election candidates or political parties, or
the use is required by law.
The electoral register or other personal data required by law to be made public, such as a shareholders register, cannot be used for direct marketing unless you have been given an opportunity to object to such use. These objection rights are free of charge.

So, I am interested to know from people here what there thoughts are on this and has anyone tried to have their data protected.Do my rights under the Data protection act extend to online companies or is this just in Ireland. If not then what laws must these site adhere to?

Nicky.

Marq

if you don't want anyone to know you or your information, use Cake. Or don't play internet poker or use the internet.

hubchap

Mellor wrote: »

While you have referenced the Data protection act, you overlooked "the freedom of information act 2003" (and previous versions)
I'm sure somebody with substainal knowledge of both acts might be able to give a better (read educated ) view

The freedom of information act applies only to the right of access to information held by the government - it doesn't apply to information that private companies may hold.

as for the OPs query re data protection i don't think the theory that sharkscope et al are breaching laws holds much water. if such websites had a person's screen name and results and real name and credit card number and address there would certainly be a breach. as someone else has pointed out, they just collate information already in the public realm and present it in a user-friendly manner. theoretically (with infinite monkeys on infinite computers) it would be possible for people to collate the information themselves.

Mellor

hubchap wrote: »

The freedom of information act applies only to the right of access to information held by the government - it doesn't apply to information that private companies may hold.

as for the OPs query re data protection i don't think the theory that sharkscope et al are breaching laws holds much water. if such websites had a person's screen name and results and real name and credit card number and address there would certainly be a breach. as someone else has pointed out, they just collate information already in the public realm and present it in a user-friendly manner. theoretically (with infinite monkeys on infinite computers) it would be possible for people to collate the information themselves.

I wasn't suggesting the FoI act applies to sharkscope (off-shore possibably rules it out anyway), it was a reference to show that not all "data" is "protected" my the DP act.
This is most likely covered in T&Cs as I said, and its most definatly public domain. Once this fact is accepted, Its tough sh1t if somebody doesn't like the fact that they sort your info.


Nicky, if you think that you are sufferign due to sharkscope, and you probably are. Then surely it is +EV for pay to have your data removed

tricky D

Mellor wrote: »

(off-shore possibably rules it out anyway)


Then surely it is +EV for pay to have your data removed

Yup, Sharkscope are simply not subject to our jurisdiction.

All the info is publically available in the first place.

The info - a username - is not considered as personal info.

It's free to remove almost all your info from Sharkscope. Check Terms and Conditions page. Same for Official Poker Rankings. Check their FAQ.

cardshark202

Better get on to the hendonmob too now. Those fúckers

Conbro

Kayroo should be able to clear up any ambiguity on this matter

Mellor

cardshark202 wrote: »

Better get on to the hendonmob too now. Those fúckers

Helping Noel Hayes eliminate the value in poker markets since 2006

Conbro

Conbro wrote: »

Kayroo should be able to clear up any ambiguity on this matter

Hey there is more than one law geek here Conor!

As for Nicky's point, I would not style myself an expert in data protection but I think this particular issue is easily enough sorted.

Nicky has raised a pretty interesting point about e-law. Jurisdictional issues are really still up for grabs here as far as I know. William McKechnie BL wrote a fascinating article on the issue while in the King's Inns. I can PM a copy of the article but it's too long to post here if anyone wants to read it.

The lack of an interactive element to Sharkscope may, if any theoretical case were to follow US Appeals Court jurisprudence, make establishing jurisdiction in Ireland very unlikely. Also, the data removal policy which came into effect in 2006 will probably stack in their favour.

Finally, without having read them all, I would imagine that most poker sites have a term or condition which allows them to collect data about your statistics and make them accessible to commerial bodies. In that case you would have to first overcome that issue before you could seek a ruling against Sharkscope.

I think your best bet is to avail of their data removal policy and just accept that data collection is a part of the game. I highly doubt professional football players could have their average distance covered/shots taken/passes completed etc. removed from the Optima Index under data protection laws and an analogous argument may well serve a defence well against any claim a pro-poker player may make.

RoundTower

chess games at most big tournaments are collated by the organisers and published in a paper bulletin or electronically or both. These inevitably find their way into databases: there are quite a few free and subscription-based chess databases available. These affect how my opponents see me way more than anything on sharkscope. Do you think these should be illegal?

I know of two cases where first the players, then the tournament organisers, tried to claim copyright over the game scores. I know both of them were found against, no idea what jurisdictions though.

NickyOD

Okay so I got my username blocked from the Sharkscope free site. I had absolutely no idea I could do that. Originally you couldn't but they changed that a long time ago.

Is anyone here actually subscribed to sharkscope? If they are I'd be interested to know what information you can get on users who are blocked.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote: »

Okay so I got my username blocked from the Sharkscope free site. I had absolutely no idea I could do that. Originally you couldn't but they changed that a long time ago.

Is anyone here actually subscribed to sharkscope? If they are I'd be interested to know what information you can get on users who are blocked.

how does the blocking work? what would prevent me from blocking someone else? I know they suggested a system where you transfer them $0.01 on Stars and that automatically gets you blocked (they transfer it back), but I didn't think they implemented it.

cooker3

Mellor wrote: »

Helping Noel Hayes eliminate the value in poker markets since 2006

What, there was ever value in poker markets?

califano

NickyOD wrote: »

Is anyone here actually subscribed to sharkscope? If they are I'd be interested to know what information you can get on users who are blocked.

KPNuts is a self confessed fan of it. Wouldnt surprise me if he made regular donations in the hope they can improve it further. Wallows in it he does.

Mellor

There is if they mis-spell a name in the hendon mob,

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote: »

how does the blocking work? what would prevent me from blocking someone else? I know they suggested a system where you transfer them $0.01 on Stars and that automatically gets you blocked (they transfer it back), but I didn't think they implemented it.

It's actually on the options menu on their front page. You just put in a username and your email address. Then you confirm via an emailed link. I also tried this with another person's account and I didn't get the email.

So this means sharkscope also has the email address associated with the account to stop unauthorized blocking/unblocking. How do they get people's email addresses?

RoundTower

they don't

but there's definitely something weird with it

NickyOD

tricky D wrote: »

It's free to remove almost all your info from Sharkscope. Check Terms and Conditions page. Same for Official Poker Rankings. Check their FAQ.

I only just discovered this. However, I think paid up users can still access my ROI% data. Although I don't how much info is there (I'm waiting for someone to tell me) but I'd imagine this would still tell people how good I am, and how much I've made. Surely this is data I have a right to be able to protect?

RoundTower

OK, I blocked cardshark202 and it seemed to work. Maybe they figured you were messing because you'd already blocked a username on the same site just today?

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote: »

they don't

but there's definitely something weird with it

How do you know they don't?

I blocked my own account using my own address. They sent me an email to confirm it.

Then I tried the same on someone else's account using another email account I can access but they didn't send me an email.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote: »

OK, I blocked cardshark202 and it seemed to work. Maybe they figured you were messing because you'd already blocked a username on the same site just today?

wow. Ok get someone else to try and unblock him.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote: »

How do you know they don't?

I blocked my own account using my own address. They sent me an email to confirm it.

Then I tried the same on someone else's account using another email account I can access but they didn't send me an email.

I know they don't because I know Stars don't make a habit of distributing their customers' email addresses. Especially to a website that they not only don't control, but have banned the use of. But I confirmed it by blocking Cromwell.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote: »

I know they don't because I know Stars don't make a habit of distributing their customers' email addresses. Especially to a website that they not only don't control, but have banned the use of. But I confirmed it by blocking Cromwell.

Yes you're right. I got the confirmation email eventually and blocked someone else's account. lol.

tricky D

NickyOD wrote: »

I only just discovered this. However, I think paid up users can still access my ROI% data. Although I don't how much info is there (I'm waiting for someone to tell me) but I'd imagine this would still tell people how good I am, and how much I've made. Surely this is data I have a right to be able to protect?

Here's the whole of the relevant paragraph:

Data Removal Policy: You may click here or email support@sharkscope.com stating the username(s)/network(s) you wish to be removed and your data will be made inaccessible to all free users. Paying subscribers will still be able to see your number of games played, along with your ROI data and form. All other statistics including average profit, average stake and total profit will be inaccessible, along with all the remaining graphs. Hence, once blocked in this manner, noone will be able to calculate your total amount won or lost. Multiple removal requests from the same email address will not be accepted. When 2 people claim a username and disagree on whether the statistics should be blocked, we will ask both users to validate their identity in a poker room chat window. If both are genuine (on CryptoLogic only) then we will side with the block requester.

Ftr, there's is nothing dodgy at all going on here or with OPR or MarketPulse or any other ranking sites. All the information they use is publicly available in the chat/hand history window. And SharkScope get your email address from you when you send in the request. They will retain this email address and the associated username in case the scenario in the 2nd last sentence in the previous paragraph arises - commonsense.

NickyOD

tricky D wrote: »

Here's the whole of the relevant paragraph:



Ftr, there's is nothing dodgy at all going on here or with OPR or MarketPulse or any other ranking sites. All the information they use is publicly available in the chat/hand history window. And SharkScope get your email address from you when you send in the request. They will retain this email address and the associated username in case the scenario in the 2nd last sentence in the previous paragraph arises - commonsense.

I read the Data removal policy. It says they do not remove all your data. Your ROI data can still be accessed at a price.

Also, I'm talking about over 3 years of records on any player you like. This is not info anyone can access publicly for free anywhere else.

tricky D

Well you can get other info from OPR and MP. For all tournaments, Sharkscope seem to have cornered the market as far as we can tell. So what - good for them. However, there's nothing dodgy going on, no conspiracy, nothing. It's pretty much the same method of gathering data as utils like PT et al use.

NickyOD

tricky D wrote: »

Well you can get other info from OPR and MP. For all tournaments, Sharkscope seem to have cornered the market as far as we can tell. So what - good for them. However, there's nothing dodgy going on, no conspiracy, nothing. It's pretty much the same method of gathering data as utils like PT et al use.

What is OPR and MP?

Like you said PT is a means for gathering the data but not for distributing it to everyone.

I had a bet with myself that I'd be told to stfu on 2+2 within 6 posts. It happened in 3!

digiman

NickyOD wrote: »

I had a bet with myself that I'd be told to stfu on 2+2 within 6 posts. It happened in 3!

How much did you win?

Do you have a link to the 2+2 thread?