Networking via Home Mains electricy

Chong

Ok I had never heard of this technology up until this morning and to be honest , I am shocked at its feasibility.

Basically it means you hook an ethernet cable in to your router which then feeds a mains plug which has an ethernet cable socket. You then in lets say another room of the house have another of these plugs, you then hook in an ethernet cable to that from there then into your pc. The signal runs through your power lines within the house.

Heres the theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication

Graphical Representation



Example of a product that does this:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=48539&C=Maplin&U=SearchTop&T=NETWORK%20OVER%20MAINS&doy=8m8

What I want to know is has anyone heard of this or tried it.

paulm17781

I seen it and heard of it used but I've never actually used it. I don't see it having much advantage over wireless TBH.

Fingleberries

I think there are a few people on Boards who have tried it. For more information on the technology and manufacturers check out http://www.homeplug.org/home.

There are a few different manufacturers, and offer speed of "up to 200 Mbps" for your network. Realistically, you're probably only going to get about 50-100 Mbps which would still offer some small advantages over Wireless and reduces the need to worry about as much interference from walls, etc.

The home plugs generally don't like extension cords, and really don't like ones with surge protection. The newer generations are now designed as pass-through - so instead of hogging a socket you can plug this into the mains and plug another appliance into this (example)

Most of the people I know who use them for streaming video or audio between devices in their home and don't have any problems.

At the CeBIT technology show earlier this year, one manufacturer showed a unit that could do up to 400Mbps (due for release in 2009).

I've been looking into it for a while, but I'm just waiting for the standards to settle out before taking the plunge.

===========================
Here are some other threads on boards about it.
- Homeplug/Powerline networking - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2054944542.html
- Powerline/Homeplug networking kit - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2055179254
- The PLT (Power Line Telecommunications) monster refuses to die - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054905187

crawler

Yes - it works very well indoors for in-house distribution, sharing etc....For streaming TV you might get a "blip" if you flick on and off light switches but that's about it.

Clover

i have been using a set of Devolo 200 Mbps plugs for the last month or so to connect my main pc to my UPC router and i think there great , so easy to set up and use.

watty

85Mbps home plug is standardised...

It's not the same thing as Broadband by Powerline or WAN PLT.

Bad ones create a huge amount of Radio interference. They all produce some interference and it also depends on your wiring.

85Mbps Homeplug may work faster than 802.11n 250Mbps WiFi and isn't blocked by foil of vapour barriers on ceiling/dryliners etc.

But I have not tested. The outdoor ISP variety should be illegal. Serious problems.

pizzahead77

I've been using a CISCO IP phone and a PC over a D-Link 200Mbps one at home for a few months now with no issues what so ever.

They're a tad expensive at €120 just for the starter kit but a lot less hassle than trying to get an ethernet cable from the router to the conservatory

Eurorunner

Have Netgear 200 Mbps plugs setup in a new house and an old (circa 1920's house) - working perfectly in both. They say that the performance is dependent on the quality and way in which the house is wired - but i've encountered no problems.

There is no setup worth talking about - its a case of just pluging them in.

As last poster said, only downfall is that they are that little bit expensive.

Chong

Eurorunner wrote: »

Have Netgear 200 Mbps plugs setup in a new house and an old (circa 1920's house) - working perfectly in both. They say that the performance is dependent on the quality and way in which the house is wired - but i've encountered no problems.

There is no setup worth talking about - its a case of just pluging them in.

As last poster said, only downfall is that they are that little bit expensive.

I am hoping when I ask this question you have experience with wireless networks.

Would you say the plugs are better than wireless networks, as in data transfer between two pc's?

Sponge Bob

Van Zuylen wrote: »

Would you say the plugs are better than wireless networks, as in data transfer between two pc's?

Yes. You get a steady c 60mbits and wifi 802.11g is more like 20-25

stylers

Agreed with watty, any form of BPL (broadband over power lines) or networking over mains should be totally banned. What the designers of this gear don't seem to realise is that any wire or cable that is used to carry a high frequency signal will radiate like an antenna if it is not designed to carry it, and mains wiring definately isn't. This causes massive pollution of the radio spectrum, which is a serious problem for those who like to observe it (radio amateurs and hobbyists in particular). Those BT homeplug adapters are causing massive problems in the UK for example. If there is a need to network something, then it should be done using cable designed for it i.e CAT5, or part of the radio spectrum that has the necessary bandwidth to accommodate it, i.e. wireless network gear..

Sponge Bob

stylers wrote: »

Agreed with watty, any form of BPL (broadband over power lines) or networking over mains should be totally banned. What the designers of this gear don't seem to realise is that any wire or cable that is used to carry a high frequency signal will radiate like an antenna if it is not designed to carry it, and mains wiring definately isn't.

This is homeplug indoor gear and is largely shielded by blocks .

However it is discussed below WRT Comtrend adapters supplied by BT and the Devolo super fast gear coming out nowadays ( 200mbits) .

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=34404&tstart=0

and

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/UKQRM/

I defer to my betters on the subject . There are some stats in that link.

This causes massive pollution of the radio spectrum, which is a serious problem for those who like to observe it (radio amateurs and hobbyists in particular). Those BT homeplug adapters are causing massive problems in the UK for example. If there is a need to network something, then it should be done using cable designed for it i.e CAT5, or part of the radio spectrum that has the necessary bandwidth to accommodate it, i.e. wireless network gear..

Outdoor powerline BB is indeed unacceptable because it can broadcast very strongly on hig htension wires but the indoor variety is certainly not as bad and does not pass the meter and is secure...unlike wireless .

Cabaal

changed thread title as title is refer to actual broadband over powerlines when discussions is LAN over powerlines

Eurorunner

Van Zuylen wrote: »

I am hoping when I ask this question you have experience with wireless networks.

Would you say the plugs are better than wireless networks, as in data transfer between two pc's?

As SpongeBob said - most definitely. I'm using the HD rated or 200mb plugs and i'm very happy with them. The purpose that I initially used them for replaced a linksys wireless bridge - which bombed out after only a few months - and even when it was working, it didnt work as effectively as the powerline plugs.
Have tried streaming on them too - and performed very well.

It would be nice to see a correction downwards in the price but otherwise no problems - and even at this price it looks like I will be ordering up a fourth set in the coming months!

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Outdoor powerline BB is indeed unacceptable because it can broadcast very strongly on hig htension wires but the indoor variety is certainly not as bad and does not pass the meter and is secure...unlike wireless .

There is no significant filtering on the meter. I've heard this claim often. I shall test.

The range is limited, and it won't pass the electricity substation for sure. Where your electricity is via underground cable there will be almost no outdoor radiation.

On overhead supply the older system is two wires about 10cm to 15cm apart. They will radiate the signal somewhat. The newer overhead wires are insulated and twisted together, I'd expect little radiation.

The mains sockets are twin & earth. The signal is on the live & neutral with an earthwire at the middle. Low radiation. But at the fuse box the lighting circuit will get the networking RF and the light switch wiring is a single live wire that will act like an aerial.

If I had problens I'd fit an RF filter on live and neutral to the ring mains/plug socket spurs so that none went back past the meter or on lighting circuit.
The ELCB might provide a little filtering. Adding filtering is not a normal home user plug & play. It needs an electrician.

But from networking point of view the 85Mbps will stream TV quality Video. That's fairly near impossible on WiFi.

Unless CAT5e is in specific trunking, I use the foil shielded version, with shield earthed at only one end. Especially for random loose CAT5e, where I use a stranded shielded version instead of solid core. You can't beat dedicated cables at end of day. We started with 10Mbps shared coax (RG58) and upgraded to switched 10Mbps CAT5 and now is all 100Mbps with 2 x 1Gbps switches and a few 1Gb PCs. Wireless started at home using 2Mbps Zoom and now MIMO supporting 2.4GHz, 5.xGHz, 54Mbps and 108Mbps simultaneously.

Sponge Bob

in a new house you can even fit what amounts to a powerline ethernet switch near th emain fuseboard and get an integrated twin socket and powerline unit for each room .

My recollection is that Homeplug 1 was 15mbit ,Homeplug 2 85mbit and I think the 200mbit pairs are not standardised yet but that there will be a Homeplug 3 standard shortly .

They are supposedly interoperable so you could mix a Solwise with a different manufacturer.

Having said that there is a grave risk that cheap ones will have crap components that damage RF signals .

We may have to buy an island for the radio experimenters and run a fibre out to it

sp1derman78

I bought my 2 from Solwise. I have one with its single Ethernet port connected to my router upstairs. The second Solwise downstairs has 3 ethernet ports on it and I have my Xbox360, Slingbox and Alertme HUB(house alarm) plugged into it. Pretty cool being able to have 3 items wired to one 'homeplug'.

The Fool

One thing i've always wondered about this system is the security. Does your traffic end at your fuseboard or could it travel?

watty

It's encrypted. Pairing is simple. Not horrendus like WPA PSK AES setups for WiFi

The traffic doesn't go far beyond ... But not a hint of a security crack.

danIrl

I have the devolo 85mbits version. Working okay for internet, but I wanted them for video streaming. It seems very depending on the wiring in your house/apt.

I have a PC in the attic (A) and one on the ground floor. (B)
The devolo program that gives the rate values is not at all realistic. You need another program that measures throughput (NetMeter is quite good).

I am getting about 15mbits/s transferring a file from B->A.
However from A->B I am only getting <2mbits/s!

I have a support case open with Devolo. They have suggested all the standard remedies such as removing other electrical devices whilst testing and plugging directly into wall sockets. Their latest suggestion is to install a phase coupler. But I want to exhaust all other possibilities before going down that route.

Kur4mA

I use this one and find that it works perfectly for me. I was having major issues with a wireless setup in my apartment as there was a kitchen/boiler/bathroom between the room with my computer sand the room with the phone socket on the wall.

I've been using a network connection through the electricity lines for quite a while now and its usually solid as a rock for me.

DamoKen

I'm using a 4 plug 85Mps setup. Agree with what was said about surge protectors, did a test with two connected to the same pc, one plugged into an extension cord and the other a surge protector extension. Constant stuttering in streamed divx, the one attached to the extension was fine at ave of 80 or so, one attached to the surge protector averaging 20 tops. Minute I plugged it in elsewhere feed was fine.

I bought PCWorlds own brand Advent, a starter kit of two plugs for 79.99 or maybe 89.99?, was a good few months back. Anyway was sceptical at first as been burnt by them before but works perfectly so bought 2 more.

Now got a router connected to the phone socket & plug downstairs, 2 connected to the pc upstairs and another to a modded xbox in the tv room. Broadband speeds have also been fine, haven't noticed any negative change in QOS either.

JDxtra

The 200Mbp products are certified. You would ideally use products from the same manufacturer though for a hassle free life.

I had the Netgear 85Mbp units (one with a 4-port switch). They were rubbish. Worked sometimes, other times they didn't even pair. Support team were not so helpful, so I sold them on eBay and went wireless.

About a month later I got an email from Netgear saying they were doing a product recall on them!

PaddyTheNth

Couple of weeks late I know, but just for general interest, I've just successfully installed a Powerline kit from MSI in an old house (re-wired 20 years ago). 85Mbps throughput theoretically although being on eircom's 1Meg deal at the moment I haven't had cause to check it yet.

I was faced with a somewhat messy wireless extension solution or running a long ethernet cable. This was a very handy solution, literally just plug and play, and no messing about with repeaters/wiring. There was a cd with the package with drivers/utilities but I didn't need to do anything with it to get the setup working.

I'd very much recommend it to anyone in a similar situation.

edit: Incidentally, the plug is working through my surge protector just fine at the speeds I'm using it at...

Marlow

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

edit: Incidentally, the plug is working through my surge protector just fine at the speeds I'm using it at...

The problem there is, that it might at times and at other times not. If you suddenly get crap speeds, i'd recommend to try to plug it in a non-surge protected socket.

I've tried the Devolo ones through a UPS, that worked, too .. on a good day

The problem that can occour with powerline adapters is, that you get a new appliance in the house and your connection dies. I had a powerline adapter in the outhouse, one in the livingroom and one upstairs. Then a new washing machine got installed and now the one in the outhouse has random every 5 minutes disconnections that last 2 minutes . .. As my broadband connection comes from a fixed wireless setup in the outhouse, I loose my internet connection for 2/5 of the time. In the end I will just wire a cat5 cable to fix that.

These are issues that you mostly see on longer runs. It's a bit like wireless, where the more distance and the more walls you have inbetween, the worse it gets. With powerline adapters it depends on noisy appliances and distance.

/Martin

danIrl

>>I am getting about 15mbits/s transferring a file from B->A.
>>However from A->B I am only getting <2mbits/s!

I found the culprit! A lamp with an energy efficient bulb! Now I can get 15mbits both directions, which is pretty good considering the distance.

glineli

I use the maplin homeplug ones, very good, espically when i am working from home. I dont have any drop off. Also if herself is downloading something, i use them instead of wireless connecting as i have no drop off and dont have to keep doing ipconfig /renew due to vista problems

JDxtra

glineli wrote: »

i use them instead of wireless connecting as i have no drop off and dont have to keep doing ipconfig /renew due to vista problems

I've not heard of this problem before. I use wireless on a laptop and a PC at home, both with Vista SP1 and the connections are always reliable.

JDxtra

danIrl wrote: »

I found the culprit! A lamp with an energy efficient bulb! Now I can get 15mbits both directions, which is pretty good considering the distance.

Energy saving bulbs. Tut tut. Hate those damn things, well - apart from the engery saving bit of course.

glineli

JDxtra wrote: »

I've not heard of this problem before. I use wireless on a laptop and a PC at home, both with Vista SP1 and the connections are always reliable.

Do you have static ips? I know a few people with this problem but was resolved by using static ips.

Connections only last 20 mins or so for me before i have to do ipconfig /renew.

crawler

JDxtra wrote: »

Energy saving bulbs. Tut tut. Hate those damn things, well - apart from the engery saving bit of course.

I find the "bulb" bit quite useful too - in particular at night when I am crawling about under tables looking for my BPL power thingys

jessconr

sounds like a quite useful product. Where can i buy it? Do i have to plug it into mains on the wall or will it work on a plug adaptor?

Johnnio13

Hi all,

I have two Dlan 200 AV installed and working like trojans - my problem is I tried wireless and it is brutal.
So I thought about getting a third DLan AVeasy Plug 89.99 in PC World (Ouch!) I have upgraded the firmware on the older ones but the newer one is not communicating.
I have been onto devolo, but they have cut me short - just wondering if there was anyone out there that might have an idea.

The breakdown --> Router attached to phone line (broadband+digitial tv coming in through this) -> cable from router to first plug, 2nd plug 12 feet away working the digital tv feed from the router

I have tried the newer plug in a socket between the older two. It can see it - 100mbs - but "limited or no connectivity"...any ideas?

Any help grateful!

JDxtra

Nope, just using DHCP with nothing special and never have to renew my IP manually.

PaddyTheNth

jessconr wrote: »

sounds like a quite useful product. Where can i buy it? Do i have to plug it into mains on the wall or will it work on a plug adaptor?

Search elara, dabs etc for "Powerline"

Here's a link to a Dabs value kit, the one I have is by MSI.

A plug adaptor shouldn't be a problem, its when you're plugging it into a surge protector that there can be issues. That being said, I've got mine going through a surge protector without any problems.

glineli

JDxtra wrote: »

Nope, just using DHCP with nothing special and never have to renew my IP manually.

It must be the way i have the router set up then, balls!!!

crawler

BPL things are transparent to IP so should not have any bearing...

Sounds like you have a DHCP lease/request time set to short on the router of in your network config.

noodler

Is it fair to say these things are of no use if you want to stream media or play online on a Games Console then? Even more so if you live in a house with alot of applicances going at once?

Sponge Bob

It is not fair , no!

Snaga

noodler wrote: »

Is it fair to say these things are of no use if you want to stream media or play online on a Games Console then? Even more so if you live in a house with alot of applicances going at once?

Not at all.

They tend to work quite well for all of these things. Just bear in mind that if you plug them into an overloaded 6-way adapter then the extra noise can (depending on the devices) cause problems.

Dedicate a regular wall socket to them and you should have no problems. Far more reliable than wireless (But then I did have a full concrete wall between my router and me at the time...).

noodler

Right cool. I think I will look into one then. 80e does seem expensive.

Seems to be a few brands reccommended in the thread, can you guys stand by one in particular?

Snaga

Ive used the Devolo 200Mbps units, more pricey than 80eur though.

PaddyTheNth

noodler wrote: »

Right cool. I think I will look into one then. 80e does seem expensive.

Seems to be a few brands reccommended in the thread, can you guys stand by one in particular?

Just don't buy anything by Silvercrest aka Lidl's Own.

seamus

Guys, sorry if this has been asked already, but I'm assuming that the two plugs need to be on the same ring circuit in order to use this type of networking?

My Dad has an office outside the house with a small network. His office phones are on ISDN (cos he needs two numbers) but the house is on PSTN, so my plan is to get DSL into the house with wireless, and then use this type of networking to provide broadband to the office. I don't know if the office has a separate ring circuit, but I suspect it does. It's definitely fed from the same consumer unit though.

My only other option is to run a a long Cat5 cable between the router in the house and the switch in the office. My only concern here is distance, but it can't be more than 100m. Using the powerlines would save a lot of hassle though.

noodler

I would have thought so (as in I would have thought they wouldn't work) but I couldn't say that with 100% certainty.

Sponge Bob

seamus wrote: »

Guys, sorry if this has been asked already, but I'm assuming that the two plugs need to be on the same ring circuit in order to use this type of networking?

Not the same ring strictly speaking ( a house may well have 3 or 4 ring mains) but off a common fuseboard inside a single common meter !

The fuseboard itself is a sort of Hub, remember Hubs( not switches) do ya Seamus ??

seamus

I was only born in the 1980's, about the same time that hubs were at their peak

Thanks for the reply though. Are you 100% that that will work, even if the rings are connected to separate trip switches? Not that I doubt you

noodler

Hmm. Ideally I would want 2 for around 50e but I assume noone here would reccommend a set that cheap. (Only see anything that price on Ebay anyway).

Sponge Bob

One thing I will say Séamus is that I am not sure of distance limitations as in the 100m for Cat5 and Cat6 but they will do 30m if that is any help . Cheap ones will probably do less . I got solwise ones to work at 30m across multiple rings before , no problems .

You do not get the full speed as in 85mbits is likely around 50mbits or 60mbits instead but it beats wireless hands down for thruput and security.

And you do remember Hubs then , thats simply spiffing

seamus

Great stuff, cheers.

Sponge Bob

These ones here are good and that is a good price for them!