UPC lose 24,000 customers

Infoanon

UPC announced their results for the year, revenue is up 7.6% but Customer numbers are down 24,000.

Numbers are down across analogue,MMDS and Digital.

UPC expressed concern at the lose of Digital Viewers and announced a new €20 deal...

At the same time SKY's figures have steadily increased (above market expectations) in Ireland


Long term UPC need to improve their Digital line up otherwise SKY will have more viewers than UPC within the year,

And improve their Customer Service - Just look at the complaints on this forum !

The tax man

Oh so it's due to the channel line up and customer service.:rolleyes: There's a clearly obvious reason for those figures. Do you have a breakdown for each platform? If you did you'd see what I mean.
This forum has turned into a rant, rather then an advice forum, so that's why you read so many negative posts. Watty has posted about this before.

ciaran76

Reckon its down to "the box" aswell. If thats ok to mention ?;)

Auvers

ciaran76 wrote: »

Reckon its down to "the box" aswell. If thats ok to mention ?;)

nah if anything that should increase subscriptions (well basic subscriptions)

paulm17781

They do need to sort themselves out badly. I used to be quite the NTL fan boy, I still think technologically they're good but there attitudes to customers is woeful. I'm hoping the 20Mb broadband is the start of many things to come. Channel line up improvements should be next, not BuzzTV, real channels.

danIrl

UPC is probably worst at what it started out selling, TV service (Cablelink days) Their lineup is not great and they use too much compression. But then again, is there really any point in having more channels, when the content is so poor?

They do excel at broadband and I have used their service for 3 years. Speeds are very close to what you buy and with the recent double/tripling of speeds, it is excellent value.

Their phone service is pretty cheap also, so I think when you consider all packages that UPC offer, it is quite good - Customer service aside!

paulm17781

I think there are a few decent channels out there we don't have, FX definitely has things I'd watch on it. I'm sure they could reduce the compression if they wanted to. Hopefully they will improve but the broadband upgrade is what has stopped me moving to Sky long ago, I just UPC do get themselves sorted out.

Solair

Sadly the Irish cable industry has a terrible image problem. It seems to me that there was horrendous damage done by the way Chorus in particular behaved. We'd entire Joe Duffy programmes dedicated to their poor customer service and inability to provide service at a technical level, particularly on the MMDS platforms.

NTL is only slightly less controvertial.

I think UPC needs to ditch both of those brands as soon as possible, they're very badly tarnished and people associate them with very negative sentiments and roll out a very agressive marketing drive which focuses on good customer service and fixing all of the years of blundering that went on in the various companies that are now owned by UPC.

The cable sector here failed almost completely to innovate or lead the market in terms of broadband access until UPC tookover. Elsewhere in Europe and North America cable broadband has been the speed leader and has pushed DSL (phonebased) broadband providers to move towards better technologies. In Ireland, that simply has not been the case and eircom's had an unsual stranglehold on the market as a result.

NTL and Chorus both sat on their backsides and relied on the fact that they had a monopoly on access to UK Terrestrial TV (BBC/ITV etc) then went into blind panic and freefall when those channels became available on Sky digital and they were suddenly left without any unique selling point. Meanwhile, cable companies in other parts of Europe had blazingly fast broadband and interesting interactive services etc that we are only starting to see in any significant way in Ireland in the last few months.

NTL in Dublin and elsewhere wasnt too bad as it provided a bog-standard basic cable service that is relatively good and reliable even if it didn't offer much in the way of a rang of channels. However, their counterparts in Cork have had a very poor recent history. The use of completely obsolete analogue cable scrambling went on for far too long and pushed many people over to Sky as they were just sick of bad signals. I would have to congratulate UPC on finally completing the Cork digital switch over. Other Chorus cable areas seem to have similar horror stories.

Then you've got the fact that Chorus seems to have used MMDS in areas where it was not really appropriate and cable ought to have been installed. There are loads of estates in parts of Cork and Limerick that aren't cabled. MMDS isn't a viable alternative to cable and offers a much more restricted line up so it's unsurprising that people are moving to Sky in large numbers.

Then more recently, UPC whacked on a very controvertial and unpopular non direct debit payment charge which justs smacked of yet more abysmal customer service and a failure to comprehend what will create bad press.

I think UPC have their work cut out if they're going to turn this around, particularly with the housing slow down as they're not going to be able to rely on new subscribers in apartment blocks to boost the figures anymore.

They're going to simply have to engage in a turf war with sky and get some of their customers back.

They absolutely need to make huge improvements to customer service and ensure that there is a major change in how they're percieved by the general public.

On another little point.. Sky have big snazzy 'sky shops' in many shopping centres around Ireland at the moment while UPC have those little fold-out stands that look like something you'd see at a car boot sale. They need to be getting their technology out there and showing to to people just like Sky do.

I really do think that UPC are making strides towards improving things, particularly the actual product offerings which are improving in leaps and bounds.

I just hope that the investment continues as I would hate to be stuck with no alternatives to Sky! Cable in Ireland has massive potential that's only now being realised. Fingers crossed things improve next year!!

I think UPC have an excellent opportunity to offer better value packages that might intice people over, particularly as household budgets are getting tighter. There are plenty of people who would ditch sky + eircom if they were confident that their cable phone/broadband could provide a reliable alternative.

Their TV+Broadband+Phone packages are very good value indeed!

paulm17781

Solair wrote: »

On another little point.. Sky have big snazzy 'sky shops' in many shopping centres around Ireland at the moment while UPC have those little fold-out stands that look like something you'd see at a car boot sale. They need to be getting their technology out there and showing to to people just like Sky do.

All very well put Solair. I think the thing about Sky showing off their technology is that they have something to show. Until UPC start to offer more than just TV (interactive, VoD, HD) they have little to show off about. I really am hoping that some new services are just around the corner.

piaget

Am a regular reader and occassional poster on here so know all about DTT and FreeSat/Freeview but i still remain a UPC customer because their phone service is an absolute giveaway compared to ripoff Eircom, I'll be taking their 3MB broadband soon and even the TV offering is improving with the addition of Dave, UKGold/Drama etc. Even the last time I called customer service was a far better experience than previously.
UPC's real growth potential is in getting customers onto triple play at good prices, therefore less churn in numbers. Better advertising and investment in customers service reps who have a technical grasp and as previous poster said ditch the NTL/Chorus brands.

thomasking22008

i know why cos lot people were using 'the box' get all channel easy without paying aswell people were using mmds aerial for receives free channel but upc company will might lose mmds linenece

Infoanon

Solair - excellent, well put - I only hope someone in UPC reads it and acts.........we live in hope, as for Tax Man...

The tax man wrote: »

Oh so it's due to the channel line up and customer service.:rolleyes: There's a clearly obvious reason for those figures. Do you have a breakdown for each platform? If you did you'd see what I mean.
This forum has turned into a rant, rather then an advice forum, so that's why you read so many negative posts. Watty has posted about this before.

Tax man - No matter what why you put it Digital Viewers are down and SKYs figures are up by 9,000 in 3 months and only 6,000 overall behind UPC.

I am a UPC subscriber and I am seriously considering changing to SKY - Why?
1.Better Service - specifically BBC Interactive - I want to watch BBCi for motogp and F1 next season
2.More Stations - specifically ITV 2,3,4 and FX
3.No BUZZ TV
4.After a year I have the equipment for keeps - option for Freesat box
5.UPC customer support is dire - twice in the last 3 weeks I have had issues with digital TV - could not get through to UPC....
6.€10 downgrade fee

I am not been negative but live in hope that someone in UPC will realise that you cannot treat customers like crap and keep chopping stations and start adding quality.

BUT - and Tax man you might have an inside track on this ?! - UPC are going to chase the broadband market as they know they cannot compete with SKY on TV alone....

The tax man

Not going to get involved in another rant. Sorry.

thomasking22008

i am using aerial mmds with 'the box' with all free channel near 1 year without paying bill

watty

You may now get a knock on the door from Garda. We can't condone Criminal Activity on Boards.ie. The Internet is not and never has been anonymous.

Read the stickies.

It's theft of service. UPC can now also charge you for a year of full package, even if Garda/DPP don't prosecute.

CO19

thomasking22008 wrote: »

i am using aerial mmds with 'the box' with all free channel near 1 year without paying bill

watty wrote: »

You may now get a knock on the door from Garda. We can't condone Criminal Activity on Boards.ie. The Internet is not and never has been anonymous.

Read the stickies.

It's theft of service. UPC can now also charge you for a year of full package, even if Garda/DPP don't prosecute.

He could be just waffling to annoy people or get the response like he did from you ,they can't charge him with out proof if he was/is using one of these boxes just because he says he is doesn't mean that he is as I said he could be just saying it,although it is highly likely he is but again it's not proof.

watty

They can get a warrant and if he has one the onus is on him to prove he wasn't stealing since the MMDS was last cancelled, if he was the account holder then. That's the way Judges regard it.

To make such a post in a Forum, is stupid. People have been tracked down and prosecuted as a result of boasts on Forums or YouTube.

I'm just being kind warning him.

CO19

Ah I see,thanks .

lucernarian

I've little sympathy for UPC. Their digital service is like watching tetris.

As solair referred to, there have been Joe Duffy shows about them. I remember an occasion when people who couldn't put up a Sky dish (because of management companies) and were giving out about the poor service that they had to endure with NTL.

The only complaints other people have told me about sky are you need a phone line (if you want multiroom) and using the ITV channels can be fiddly!

Sky are in a different league for TV service.

And UPC are improving far too slowly, even if parts of their network have been completely renovated.

paulm17781

The tax man wrote: »

Not going to get involved in another rant. Sorry.

Tax man, your posts are normally useful and helpful but what do you expect people to do, just sit back and take it?

UPC need to start to compete and get their CC fixed. If you can give other reasons why people are leaving, please offer them. However if you'd rather dismiss every complaint as a rant, that's exactly what's wrong with UPC.

Solair

That's the problem with monopoly providers, they don't have to respond to customers' needs.

eircom was forced to compete through a marketing opening, but the cable companies had exclusive monopolies in each area.

Sky digital came along and suddenly they lost a LOT of customers it's not really that surprising.

More Music

They haven't been a monopoly provider for a while now. Plenty of time to get it sorted.

I reckon not getting the contract to provide the 3 commercial DTT muxes (muxi ?) will hit them hard. They were really hope to secure that.

lafors

NTL were a complete sham. Their service was very bad, plus customer support was far worse than what most here say. You were lucky if you got through within 30 minutes, and I NEVER had one helpful conversation with them. They never rang back, their engineers didn't turn up on time or at all. The broadband service was down for days at a time.

Now look at UPC. They are improving their tv service, by eventually releasing some sort of service to compete with sky+
Their broadband service is exceptional. 20meg, and upgrading for free, this is exactly what they needed to do. Sky can only provide 4meg.

With respect to customer service, I honestly have to say they are doing it marginally better than NTL did. Wait times are still long, but now there's a chance you may get some sort of help when you do eventually get through.
All customer service agents should be like the ones on the premium line.

So as another poster said, they need to ditch the NTL and Chorus names for good. Get the sky+ style service out there asap (including series link), and bring their bb services to more areas. Then they might get some customers back.

In reference to the person who commented on "the box", UPC have got to realise, as long as they leave a weak service out there (both weak in line up and security), then people like this (who call it "the box" and have no ioata(sp?) how "the box" actually cracks the system) are using it, they're going to find it difficult to make money. Btw lad that was a silly post to make on a public forum, at least edit your post and delete what's written in before someone who is not as nice as watty decides to rat you out, just some friendly advice.

watty

Sky don't have ANY broadband here. 4meg?

lafors

watty wrote: »

Sky don't have ANY broadband here. 4meg?

Sky called to my door last week (they were going throught the whole estate), trying to poach customers. They were offering a free box & dish?

I asked the lads a few questions, did they have HD, phone, broadband.
He said they have high speed broadband available. I asked how "high speed" is it and he said their fastest is 4meg. Never thought anything of it, no you mention it though, I've never heard of anyone having BB with them.
Wonder if the lads were trying to sucked people into signing?
I think I'll be getting onto sky about this

edit: btw I live in Dublin 9

byte

Well, it'd be the first I heard of Sky offering broadband in Ireland.

thomasking22008

what type there will broadband for sky moderm

rubadub

ciaran76 wrote: »

Reckon its down to "the box" aswell. If thats ok to mention ?;)

Auvers wrote: »

nah if anything that should increase subscriptions (well basic subscriptions)

I would have thought so too. They are down 24,000 I presume this is people changing to sky, but I wonder how many would have changed to sky if "the box" was not available. I know many people who are unhappy with their service. I expect many also cancelled sky when they knew they could get "the box". I would (impossibly) like to see UPCs subscription figures due to the box, how many lost premium services, and how many new subs, it could actually be in their interest not to knock them out. Many would have had the basic service anyway and have no interest in paying for the premium stuff- in which case UPC are not really losing anything.

lafors wrote: »

In reference to the person who commented on "the box", UPC have got to realise, as long as they leave a weak service out there (both weak in line up and security), then people like this (who call it "the box" and have no ioata(sp?) how "the box" actually cracks the system) are using it, they're going to find it difficult to make money.

But I wonder what will happen when they knock out "the box", I expect a lot of people will turn to sky, some might be 50/50 between the 2 companies and only go for sky out of spite for having their ability to steal removed, and leaving them with an expensive doorstop.

If SKY are smart then I expect people will be getting a lot of sky offers in the door along with the new UPC cards.

bk

First thing to point out, UPC added over 22,000 BB customers in the same period *, digital customers up 3%, phone subs up, revenue up to $184m from $148.4m same time last year, profits rose to $69.6m from $46.7m, so not everything is bad.

* And this was during the period before they introduced 20mb BB, imagine what the numbers will be like in 6 months time.

rubadub makes some good points and has me thinking conspiracy periods.

The box could actually be good for UPC in the short term. Some people have changed from Sky and gotten UPC installed due to the box. Then UPC up sell those customers on their excellent BB and phone packages. Then they sell them on the €20 digital package (which still includes analogue for less), getting people use to their analogue service. Eventually UPC upgrade their network, disabling the box. Sure they will lose some customers, but a lot of people will stay due to the excellent bundling with BB, etc.

biggus

Maybe UPC could start by rebranding to a name that means something,unlike NTL or Chorus perhaps Re brand to CABLELINK ;its no harm state the obvious and state unique selling point.

Solair

I suspect they're hanging on to the Chorus/NTL names for the time being to avoid tarnishing the UPC brand though. There are still lots of network issues in various areas to be resolved. I assume when they have the majority of cable areas upgraded and when MMDS is properly cut over to Digital in all areas you'll see the rebrand finalised. I'm sure they're fully aware of how bad some of the ex NTL/Chorus services were.

I've just had serious difficulty due to bad wiring internally in my building and have had to cancel UPC Digital, however their customer service was nothing short of excellent the whole way through. Unfortunately, it's not resolvable as the problem is within the building itself and not something that UPC can modify.

• Service calls bang on time and very quick (2 day wait)
• Friendly staff on the phones who knew what they were talking about
• Friendly helpful staff on the ground too.

It's light years ahead of what Chorus was and this is exactly how they will win customers. Sky customer service can be patchy at best and many of the broadband companies have terrible customer care.

I'd assume UPC will want to be associated with a good channel line up and high end broadband, not 30 years of sloppy service from the companies that they bought out.

I mean, if you think about it NTL and Chorus' only value was really in the fact that they had access to hundreds of thousands of homes. Their brands are pretty bad and their products and services were under developed, badly implemented and very much behind the times in terms of technology.

UPC are effectively in a position where they've had to rebuild the network, create new products and services and basically launch an entirely new cable system from almost scratch.

rubadub

bk wrote: »

rubadub makes some good points and has me thinking conspiracy periods.

And now you have me thinking of more too!

As I said if people had the standard package many never would have had any intention of paying for premium sports & movies, but the box was worth the money to them. For UPC these people made no dent in their profits, it is theft of service certainly but this "theft" cost UPC nothing for these "non premium" people (ingoring the other cancelled subs).

I am not sure how it works but I expect UPC must fork out money to sky, setanta etc for each subscription they have to movies & sport. So by knowingly having poor protection you could turn it around and say it is really UPC who are stealing service and allowing users to get it free. UPC have a massive happy user base of illegal box users and have to pay sky etc for a small % of actual users on their network. Sort of reminds me of BB companies telling the music industry giants to F-off when asked to stop their users downloading music illegally, they knew if they did then people would switch, and the downloading cost them nothing but added traffic, in UPCs case the extra traffic is costing nothing.

I remember cablelink used to give free skymovies the odd time at weekends, the box could be viewed as an extended period of this. Many were happy with basic service and now they have gotten used to having all the channels. Who knows? perhaps when the box is knocked out not only will the previous premium people resubscribe, but you might get a host of new ones wanting the footie at home too.

but a lot of people will stay due to the excellent bundling with BB, etc.

And the whole hassle of changing too.

Solair

I don't think UPC intentionally has weak encryption, rather NTL and Chorus may not have the resources to keep up to speed with the technology available to the hackers.

Until all the existing digital boxes are replaced, UPC won't really be in a position to do a major upgrade. Hence they're doing everything in their power to keep the existing technology locked as tightly as possible in the meantime.

Theft of service is costly, it's lost potential revenue. If people are willing to go out an buy equipment to hack the network's encryption system, then they clearly want cable tv but are just unwilling to pay for it.

Hacked boxes on the network are likely to be costing them a fortune in terms of lost potential revenue. If there were 20,000 hacked boxes on the network and 10% of those people would subscribe to services if they couldn't get them illegally, that's still 2000 lost subscribers.

There's also the issue that many people seem to be watching cable without any subscription at all. i.e. still hooked up to analogue despite never having paid.

Of course there'll be a % of people with hacked equipment who will never pay for TV anyway, but there's a good % who definitely would.

If anything, once the encryption is tightened significantly a lot of people may opt to regularise their accounts and subscribe to the service properly.

What amazes me is that, particularly in Dublin (where cable was not encrypted to start with) a lot of people seem to think that these devices are completely legitimate and that those channels are supposed to be there by right. Some people seem to even think that they're legal! I've heard people describe them as 'signal enhancers' that 'let' you pick up extra channels... a bit like a freeview box!

I don't know if that's just a way of making it seem legitimate and justifying it to themselves, or if that's how the product's being sold to them.

MisterAnarchy

To utilise the 'Box' most people have to subscribe to the minimum package off UPC .
Alot of the channels on this package are FTA and UPC are paying hardly any royalties on these channels.
Many people simply subscribe to get the 4 Irish Tv channels and the British terrestrial channels in digital quality.
This is UPC's bread and butter .
I do not know what cut UPC get off Sky for the Premium channels but knowing Sky's policy it is most likely a pittance,hence its probably hardly worth very little to UPC to push these packages.

rubadub

Solair wrote: »

I don't think UPC intentionally has weak encryption, rather NTL and Chorus may not have the resources to keep up to speed with the technology available to the hackers.

I have heard they would need new lines put in, probably a ethernet type connection in the back of the box constantly verifying it is OK.

Solair wrote: »

If people are willing to go out an buy equipment to hack the network's encryption system, then they clearly want cable tv but are just unwilling to pay for it.

But if they buy a box then they are in effect willing to pay for it, just not as much as UPC want. Loads of extra channels, but a lot of crap. Also some people will want the boxes since some are superior quality and have better menu systems etc. UPC do not offer a box with HDMI or component output but some dodgy boxes have it.

Solair wrote: »

Hacked boxes on the network are likely to be costing them a fortune in terms of lost potential revenue. If there were 20,000 hacked boxes on the network and 10% of those people would subscribe to services if they couldn't get them illegally, that's still 2000 lost subscribers.

But how much is that worth to them? As I said I presume sky/setanta etc get the bulk of the sub fee. Also how many people who were on premium sky packages cancelled and changed over to UPC knowing their system was hackable and now pay the basic sub.

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I do not know what cut UPC get off Sky for the Premium channels but knowing Sky's policy it is most likely a pittance,hence its probably hardly worth very little to UPC to push these packages.

And not worth their while to pay too much to protect the system since they may lose a lot of customers if they do. But of course they must appear to be doing something.

Redderneck

Make a sweeping generalisation here, but anyone receiving UPC via MMDS, is pretty much receiving TV service only. Leave the wonders of phone service/broadband aside. My own bugbear is that I pay the same price for MMDS Digital TV as someone who gets Cabled Digital TV, yet have significantly fewer channels available (around half, when I last checked).

Unless UPC are going to cable my area in the next 3 months (unlikely given rural town location), I'll be another gone to Sky.

Either they broaden the offering by cabling, or by deploying mods to MMDs service (if there are such possibilities, technically) or their MMDS customer base WILL churn.

They're recruiting a Sales Director for Limerick at present. Great package on offer. It'd need to be, cos the sucessful applicant will do well to last more than the first 12 months. Hiding to nothing.

Sir Oxman

Redderneck wrote: »

Make a sweeping generalisation here, but anyone receiving UPC via MMDS, is pretty much receiving TV service only. Leave the wonders of phone service/broadband aside. My own bugbear is that I pay the same price for MMDS Digital TV as someone who gets Cabled Digital TV, yet have significantly fewer channels available (around half, when I last checked).

Unless UPC are going to cable my area in the next 3 months (unlikely given rural town location), I'll be another gone to Sky.

Either they broaden the offering by cabling, or by deploying mods to MMDs service (if there are such possibilities, technically) or their MMDS customer base WILL churn.

They're recruiting a Sales Director for Limerick at present. Great package on offer. It'd need to be, cos the sucessful applicant will do well to last more than the first 12 months. Hiding to nothing.

Just move to Sky then.

watty

Or

Digiweb and UPC Ireland, (parent company of Chorus ntl) is conducting a joint pilot marketing campaign targeting homes across North County Dublin. Consumers in this area can now avail of a bundle from both providers including high speed Broadband & Phone service and Digital TV for just €49.95.

A solution getting tested for the poor MMDS cousins.

DingDong

watty wrote: »

Or


A solution getting tested for the poor MMDS cousins.

I didn't know they were doing it with digiweb. Very interesting Watty.

pa990

watty wrote: »

Or


A solution getting tested for the poor MMDS cousins.

so much for mmds being abandoned..


this could also be good competition for boxer







(the future looks bright.. or maybe i forgot to turn the light off)

who is this

rubadub wrote: »

I have heard they would need new lines put in, probably a ethernet type connection in the back of the box constantly verifying it is OK.

Ethernet? Ethernet is for Local Area Networks, and the most common usage is to connect to a router which connects to a broadband service. UPC deliver broadband through the cable network, so there's no way this is the case. But two way communication in general could greatly help out.

A simple solution would be (I don't know if technology like this exists, but it wouldn't be hard to engineer) to tie the cards to a customer number (as I believe they are already). Then using either two-way com over cable or using a built-in BB decoder, the card number and box numbers are sent to UPC. The server then replies with the relevant encryption keys. The encryption would not be CAM based (because if I understand CAMs correctly, they can only support one encryption type) but instead would be software based. The additional processor power required would be offset by the lack of need for a CAM, and the fact that the encryption system can be upgraded if compromised (similar to Windows Media Player DRM).

The only vulnerability I can see in a system like that would be copied cards, but since the UPC get a list of cards "logging on", they can easily watch for cards logging on unusually frequently, or for cards logging on in multiple systems.

BobbyD10

byte wrote: »

Well, it'd be the first I heard of Sky offering broadband in Ireland.

A friend of mine recently got Sky in and was told broadband is available to him.

pa990

who is this wrote: »

......UPC get a list of cards "logging on", they can easily watch for cards logging on unusually frequently, or for cards logging on in multiple systems.

MMDS has no talk back facility

Fresh Pots

When everyone has the new boxes, aren't they going to knock out the small pace boxes? leaving no reason for them to come up with any new encryption for now anyway.

rogue-entity

Solair wrote: »

I don't think UPC intentionally has weak encryption, rather NTL and Chorus may not have the resources to keep up to speed with the technology available to the hackers.

IIRC, UPC are using Nagra 1, which was used in the US by one of their satellite providers, and cracked almost a decade ago. I get the impression NTL started using it, simply because they were too cheap to licence a better system. Or perhaps they just used what NTL in the UK were using at the time.

Solair wrote: »

Until all the existing digital boxes are replaced, UPC won't really be in a position to do a major upgrade. Hence they're doing everything in their power to keep the existing technology locked as tightly as possible in the meantime.

They aren't doing much about it. I think these dodgyboxes are to NTL's Nagra 1, what Markus Kuhn's image-processing attack is to VideoCrypt.

Solair wrote: »

Theft of service is costly, it's lost potential revenue. If people are willing to go out an buy equipment to hack the network's encryption system, then they clearly want cable tv but are just unwilling to pay for it.

Thats like saying illegal music downloads and cracked software, is lost revenue for the music and software companies. Some people, have no intention of paying for what they perceive is overpriced, but they want it anyway. They will either "steal" it, or do without.

Solair wrote: »

If anything, once the encryption is tightened significantly a lot of people may opt to regularise their accounts and subscribe to the service properly.

Or they might just switch to Sky, which is better value for money IMO.

who is this wrote: »

A simple solution would be (I don't know if technology like this exists, but it wouldn't be hard to engineer) to tie the cards to a customer number (as I believe they are already). Then using either two-way com over cable or using a built-in BB decoder, the card number and box numbers are sent to UPC. The server then replies with the relevant encryption keys. The encryption would not be CAM based (because if I understand CAMs correctly, they can only support one encryption type) but instead would be software based. The additional processor power required would be offset by the lack of need for a CAM, and the fact that the encryption system can be upgraded if compromised (similar to Windows Media Player DRM).

The only vulnerability I can see in a system like that would be copied cards, but since the UPC get a list of cards "logging on", they can easily watch for cards logging on unusually frequently, or for cards logging on in multiple systems.

The best type of encryption system, is one that can be updated and replaced without having to replace the decoders themselves. Sky's system AFAIK, is entirely in software, so when they upgrade their version of VideoGuard to patch a vulnerability, they just send the update to all their boxes over-the-air. AFAIK with Sky they also update the card's key's every week or so, as well as the access flags for channel packages each month.

If UPC was able to licence NDS's VideoGuard and make use of the same type of system that Sky currently use, they wouldnt be so easily beaten.

watty

pa990 wrote: »

MMDS has no talk back facility

yet...

watty

rogue-entity wrote: »

They aren't doing much about it. I think these dodgyboxes are to NTL's Nagra 1, what Markus Kuhn's image-processing attack is to VideoCrypt.


If UPC was able to licence NDS's VideoGuard and make use of the same type of system that Sky currently use, they wouldnt be so easily beaten.

Nagra2

NDS is way too expensive.

There is a cardless scheme too, but only on hybrid cable/IP set boxes. BTW there are cable TV boxes with ethernet for IP.

rogue-entity

Watty, I thought NTL/Chorus were presently still using Nagra1 with a planned roll-out to Nagra2 once all the current boxes were upgraded/replaced. If not, I stand corrected. In any case, it seems that UPC are unable to stop these pirate boxes at present, and I presume the change in encryption systems will facilitate this.

NDS probably is too expensive, but its far more secure than competing systems at present. There is always a trade-off between cost and security, and NTL's system was smashed wide open. If they want to keep their network secure, they have to pay up and implement a better system.

DenMan

That is a big drop alright. We went back to SKY a few months ago and at the time were really considering UPC. They had recently entered the North West and looked like a good bet. Unfortunately their equivilent of the Sky+ Box (Digital Video Recoreder) would not be available for at least another year so we went with a SKY. We weren't with them a week when we got a letter informing all their customers they were going to increase the prices. They are all like leeches that attach to you and take, take, take. Unfortunately there's not an awful lot that can be done about it.

Solair

Well, all of the new UPC boxes contain a Euro DOCSIS cable modem, so they most definitely do have talkback over the network if they want it. It's just a matter of changing the keys regularly and updating the legitimate boxes over the network. The 'dogyboxes' won't get the new info so will fall off the network.

If this deal with Digiweb works out, it's quite possible that they may end up with some kind of a merged service. Also, remember that Digiweb's metro service shares a lot of cable tv technology. They used Euro Docsis modems over a microwave link. It's possible that UPC could come up with something that would allow a single box solution similar to what cable tv users have. Digiweb could be given access to UPC MMDS sites and simply beam the signal out with the MMDS signals.

UPC are using ~2500Mhz for MMDS TV
Digiweb are using similar technology at 10000 Mhz for Metro broadband.

It's quite possible that you could get a single box to cope with both. Also, it's possible that MMDS might get moved up the band anyway over the next few years as 2.5Ghz is licenced for broadband elsewhere. There is other microwave bandwidth available which could be used for broadening out the TV offerings too.

It could be quite an interesting set up though.

Given that the signal's down-converted to similar to standard European cable channel frequencies in both systems (i.e. the box on your antenna steps the frequencies down). It would be possible to combine signals from the MMDS TV system and the Digiweb MMDS Metro Broadband into a single coax feed. They'd just have to be allocated non-clashing channels. A relatively standard UPC Cable box could then handle the connection for both TV and broadband/phone. The end result would look very much like cable tv in urban areas.

It'd also be an opportunity to upgrade the boxes for MPEG 4 capable versions which could see more channels, options of HDTV.

MMDS could end up being a very attractive product for once.

bk

Hi Watty, just curios, if UPC were theoretically to move up to the 10GHz + frequencies, don't such frequencies not travel as far then 2.5GHz and therefore UPC would need a lot more transmitters to cover the same area?

Also would the existing UPC aerials and wiring work with 10GHz frequencies, with just a STB replacement needed?