Declan Kidney on irishtimes.com

Eoin

Kidney sets modest targets From irishtimes.com

Ireland coach Declan Kidney broached a number of topics pertaining to the season ahead as he outlined his aspirations, both short and long term, in Cork today.

Flanked by team manager Paul McNaughton, forwards coach Gert Smal, backs coach Alan Gaffney, defence coach Les Kiss and with kicking coach Mark Tainton arriving later, Kidney offered a whistle stop tour of the importance of the autumn internationals, the Irish captaincy and his priorities as the new Ireland coach.

Kidney admitted: "It's been great, nerve racking in terms of trying to get everything right and things off to a good start. We invited 45 players in. We have been trying to get a balance between the provincial pre-season - it's slightly shorter this year - and striking that balance between the rugby and the conditioning work.

"The aims - rather than giving you the outlandish ones of trying to enjoy myself . . . hoping that we do as well as we possibly can - can be broken down to results and performance.

"November is more important than it has ever been this year. There's IRB ranking points (available) and wherever we stand on December 1st is going to have an effect on the draw for the next World Cup. It has a three year effect how we go in the next three matches."

After the games against Canada, Argentina and New Zealand, Kidney will look ahead to the Six Nations where he simply stated that a successful campaign, in terms of signifying progress, would be to win more matches than Ireland managed last year.

On the issue of the captaincy he pointed out: "Brian and myself have been talking and taking a look at things

"Come November we'll take a good look at it and see how things are. I think it's important he gets a chance to concentrate on his own game. He's been shouldering things for the last five years. We'll see how things go.

"You don't win three Triple Crowns and throw that away too easily. At the same time you want to give him a small bit of space. It wouldn't be usual to name a captain at the start of a set-up."

McNaughton confirmed that a proposed test between Ireland and South Africa scheduled for later this year in Dubai was 90 per cent certain not to go ahead.

Nothing too earth-shattering there. This is probably old news, but it looks like O'Driscoll may be relieved of the captaincy.

[Jackass]

Yeah seems that way alright. So I suppose the age old question of who fills in as captain? They have to be a dead cert starter and fit most of the time and of course a great player and leader. Who does that leave?

Only name that springs to mind is O'Connell for me. And I'd be fairly sure Kidney will agree.

Amz

To be honest, I'd be happy enough with O'Connell as captain, providing if he's having a bad game he doesn't disappear as he is sometimes wont to do. I think he would be a good leader and if it is him (Which it is likely to be) I wish him the best of luck and hope it's a good thing for Ireland.

It'd be good to be able to see O'Driscoll just being able to focus on his own game.

Eoin

I think O'Gara would be another obvious choice for Kidney. Personally I don't think he's a great player, but he must be in the reckoning.

Amz

I wouldn't like to see O'Gara as captain. Unfortunately though he's likely to be in the reckoning too.

[Jackass]

Yeah exactly, thought that myself, but I wouldn't fancy him as a captain. I just don't see him as a leader. As great a player as he is, he gets a lot of protection on the pitch and I think your captain should lead from the front.

Yeah will be good to see O'Driscoll being able to concentrate on his own game again without distraction and hopefully get back his form.

Eoin

You never know - there could be some players who may not be "billboard" names, but could be very good captains.

Simon Easterby and Simon Best are two such players who were supposedly excellent leaders, if not in the limelight.

Amz

Oh I've no doubt there are a few of the "less well known" guys who would be good captains, but I'd say initially Kidney will want one of his big guns to lead.

RugbyFanatic

Rory Best would make a great captain but unfortunately he isn't a dead cert starter.

Cullen would be my ideal captain but like Best he wouldn't be guaranteed his game.

Certainly wouldn't give it to O'Gara anyways.

Kearney would get it but hes simply too young and new amongst the team.

So of all the options avaliable I would give it to O'Connell though he is far from ideal.

Stev_o

Id like Best to get it if he nails down the no2 shirt which i think after the SH tour he probably has done.

Honestly O'Connels record as captain isnt great and its a shame for whatever reason that he cant show his captaincy skills at this level and only with Munster =/

themont85

Don't want O'Connell as captain, I think he is suited better as one of the lieutenants leaders(like Neil Back or Dallaghio for Eng). He gets a bit wound up on the pitch at times and has shown as captain in the past that he can have a rush of blood to the head. Undoubtably he's a crucial voice on the pitch though.

Hansel

I doubt it'll be Kidney that decides the new captain, he may decide that a new captain is needed, but his normal process is to let the squad vote for their own captain.

nameandanumber

I think Eoin Reddan would grow into a great Irish captain.

There might be an issue with him playing outside Ireland but I think if he got the chance he'd grab it with both hands.

It also by-passes all the 'Ireland turning into Munster' nonsense that some sections of the media appear to be obsessed with.

Well...that's what I'd do if I was DK anyway

Stev_o

nameandanumber wrote: »

I think Eoin Reddan would grow into a great Irish captain.

There might be an issue with him playing outside Ireland but I think if he got the chance he'd grab it with both hands.

It also by-passes all the 'Ireland turning into Munster' nonsense that some sections of the media appear to be obsessed with.

Well...that's what I'd do if I was DK anyway

Keith Wood played outside of Ireland during most of his captaincy sure

Podge_irl

There are no stand out candidates for captaincy in the squad. I dont think either O'Gara or O'Connell are particularly good captains and I imagine neither would be an improvement on BOD (I would go as far as to say both would be worse actually).
Cullen is probably the best captain available, but he is by no means guaranteed a starting spot - he's fourth in line right now and can probably only hope for the bench spot at best.

Someone out of left field may be the best option. There is no set rule that you need to captain your province in order to captain your country.

Eoin

Podge_irl wrote: »

Someone out of left field may be the best option. There is no set rule that you need to captain your province in order to captain your country.

Indeed - O'Driscoll was made the Irish Captain before he was made the Leinster Captain.

Snickers Man

Why not pick the best captain, even if he's not the best player in his position? The French did. Back in the 1970s. They had Jacques Fouroux as their scrum half and captain, even though it was cheerfully admitted that there were better scrum halves in France than he. They just thought he was the best leader.

They won the grand slam, for only the second time in their history, with him as captain.

I think Leo Cullen would be a good captain. Leicester seemed to think so too, while he was there. Anthony Foley would have been and should have been captain too. And if Rory Best is up to it, then he should get the hooker's role on the strength of that alone.

O'Driscoll is a fine player but I don't think he's a good captain at all. At least, not in the tactical sense. He completely lost his way in the last world cup and had no idea how to counter the Argentinians and the Georgians when they fiendishly decided that they wouldn't co-operate with Ireland's Plan A. He wasn't able to come up with a plan B, the way a real captain would have done.

theKramer

Snickers Man wrote: »

O'Driscoll is a fine player but I don't think he's a good captain at all. At least, not in the tactical sense. He completely lost his way in the last world cup and had no idea how to counter the Argentinians and the Georgians when they fiendishly decided that they wouldn't co-operate with Ireland's Plan A. He wasn't able to come up with a plan B, the way a real captain would have done.

I wonder how much of that is down to EOS's dictatorial rule where the players werent allowed to think for themselves.....

My guess is that it will probably be POC as captain. Its always better to have a forward as a captain. No matter what type of game it is, forwards will always be getting stuck in. Backs can get shut out of a game if the game if forwards orientated, therefore cant lead from the front.

My 2 cents.

dub_skav

It wouldn't be usual to name a captain at the start of a set-up.

That line from Kidney suggests to me the possibility of him moving the captaincy around for the first few months and seeing who grabs it.

zAbbo

Jamie Heaslip would make a great captain

Eoin

theKramer wrote: »

I wonder how much of that is down to EOS's dictatorial rule where the players werent allowed to think for themselves.....

I agree, I don't know how much you can blame the Captain when there seemed to be a lack of a Plan B from the management team.

zAbbo wrote: »

Jamie Heaslip would make a great captain

You could be right, but what would you base that on? A very good player does not always make a good captain.

jam_on_toast

First of all, O'gara should not be captain. Its more important we give other guys a chance in the 10 spot.

Cullen is the best leader but will he even be picked for the team??

Best again is an option but is under pressure for his place.

Leaving O'Connell as the only choice in my opinion if the captaincy is changed, which i think it should be.

themont85

Watching Ireland recently and more particularly in the summer tour, our team desperatly lack on field leadership. At times they lack onfield leadership around the pitch, with disjointed lineouts and mindless pick and gos. Ireland's pack was at its best when we had Anthony Foley and even Reggie Corrigan there. Not necessarily the best players but had cop on on the pitch, we need that sort of player and Cullen might be the guy.

Stev_o

zAbbo wrote: »

Jamie Heaslip would make a great captain

I fail to see though how Heaslip would make a great captain i mean a talented player and all he has looked shaky after his two tests down under and he doesnt look like a guy who has leadership skills.

Like compare him to the great No8 captains and backrow forwards and he really seems afar drift from those type of people.

strassenwolf

I think it's been discussed on the board before, and Kidney refers to it in that article, but I am still puzzled as to why it is necessary to have the World Cup draw three years in advance of the event?

The draw for the final stages of the soccer world cup happen about six months before the event, and that seems to work fine.

What is the logic?

Eoin

strassenwolf wrote: »

I think it's been discussed on the board before, and Kidney refers to it in that article, but I am still puzzled as to why it is necessary to have the World Cup draw three years in advance of the event?

Not 100% sure, but it sounds like our draw will be based on our ranking - and that's what will be defined in the next few games.

toomevara

eoin_s wrote: »

Not 100% sure, but it sounds like our draw will be based on our ranking - and that's what will be defined in the next few games.

I'm completely confused by the WC ranking system...I'd thought they'd switched to a new template where our seeding was decided by our pool finish in the last Wc...no? Or did that just mean we didn't have to qualify?

strassenwolf

eoin_s wrote: »

Not 100% sure, but it sounds like our draw will be based on our ranking - and that's what will be defined in the next few games.

Eoin, the draw is indeed based on the ranking. But there's a lot that can happen and change over 2.5/3 years. What is the advantage of basing the draw on the ranking 3 years before the event, rather than the ranking six months before it?

Take, for example, the last World Cup. Ireland, France and Argentina were all in the top six teams in the World six months before the event. Had the draw taken place then, they would not have been drawn together. (I know Ireland played like a team ranked about twentieth in the world during the competition, but if they had played to their potential, that would have been a very tough group for all three teams).

On paper, before the event, Scotland and Wales looked to have much easier draws than Argentina, because they had been ranked higher when the draw was made - three years before a ball was kicked. Unfair, I think.

[Jackass]

Stev_o wrote: »

I fail to see though how Heaslip would make a great captain i mean a talented player and all he has looked shaky after his two tests down under and he doesnt look like a guy who has leadership skills.

Like compare him to the great No8 captains and backrow forwards and he really seems afar drift from those type of people.

From watching him at Leinster, he is a real leader. There's no doubt in my mind he will lead Leinster and possibly Ireland one day. Not yet though.

He leads by example and he's always talking and he gets stuck in without fear.

I'll admit he didn't have a great tour, but for me he is hands down the best No.8 in the country and I've no doubt you will see him grow into a massive player for Ireland over the next couple of seasons.

I suppose players worth a mention who haven't been already are O'Callaghan, Hayes, Wallace, D'Arcy, Horgan & Kearney.

You could argue that when fit, these players would all be dead cert starters. The pick of the bunch is Wallace for me and I think he could be a good captain.

I agree Cullen is probably the best leader of all the available players, but it would have to be at the expense of O'Callaghan or O'Connell who are big enough players for Ireland as it is, but Cullen has never really been given his oppertunity, maybe he should? He took over from Martin Johnson at Leicester which isn't a bad man to be second in to.

A shortlist so far could be: O'Connell, Wallace, Best & Cullen.

I think we would all agree a forward is probably the best option.

Amazotheamazing

I dunno, compare to Leamy at 8 for Munster in the knock out stages of this years HEC to Heaslip's summer tour and imo, Leamy was the better player, even playing in his (nominally) weaker position.

Heaslip hasn't really delivered for Ireland yet, imo.

themont85

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I dunno, compare to Leamy at 8 for Munster in the knock out stages of this years HEC to Heaslip's summer tour and imo, Leamy was the better player, even playing in his (nominally) weaker position.

Heaslip hasn't really delivered for Ireland yet, imo.

I dunno I thought Heaslip was good in some 6 nations games this year. He wasn't great on tour but I'd much rather him than Leamy at 8 who never impressed me there.

Amazotheamazing

To be fair, I don't think either have brought their club form to Ireland for some while, but I've seen Leamy play a higher level in the HEC than Heaslip. Heaslip has consistently been ordinary against the top HEC teams he's played like Toulouse and Leicester this year.

[Jackass]

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I dunno, compare to Leamy at 8 for Munster in the knock out stages of this years HEC to Heaslip's summer tour and imo, Leamy was the better player, even playing in his (nominally) weaker position.

Heaslip hasn't really delivered for Ireland yet, imo.

In fairness, it was his first season in the Irish squad and I thought he had a very good 6 nations. Don't forget he's still very young. It was only a couple of seasons ago he was nominated for IRB world young player of the year. Each season he's gotten better and better as well, plus he hammers in the tries. Big and powerful with great hands and lightning quick for a man of his size. He has it all imo.

jam_on_toast

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I dunno, compare to Leamy at 8 for Munster in the knock out stages of this years HEC to Heaslip's summer tour and imo, Leamy was the better player, even playing in his (nominally) weaker position.

Heaslip hasn't really delivered for Ireland yet, imo.

I don't think HEC form is a good indicator for the international stage, it never really seems to translate for most players. Munster's pack in the HEC is nearly unstoppable while on the International stage it struggles against decent opposition. ( ROG falls into this category too).

On the Heaslip/Leamy issue, Heaslip is younger and imo a cleverer player. He will get better on the intl stage. Leamy does not have high enough skill levels in my opinion to be an internationl class 8. This was severly brought to light in the WC. 6 is where he should stay.

The Batman

I dont know why he hasnt been mentioned yet but I tink Jerry Flannery would be a good captain!! He is always motivating the lads in the huddle and in stoppages is always encouraging!!!! I feel he is Irelands best hooker and definitely leads from the front!

If David Wallace spoke now and again on the pitch i'd hand it to him hands down....does the dirty work like a mule!!!! Heaslip too is in the same category!!

zAbbo

Flannery isn't as good as Best, so it's a bit pointless.

I think the captaincy might rotate around a few players, Capello like

uberwolf

The Batman wrote: »

I dont know why he hasnt been mentioned yet but I tink Jerry Flannery would be a good captain!!

Flannery can't keep his head. Motivation is only an element of captaincy.

the immortals

no obvious choice but o connell can very inspiring

zAbbo

the immortals wrote: »

no obvious choice but o connell can very inspiring

Is there something he would do differently with the captaincy.

He more or less is the forwards captain anyway, and you could argue he'd find himself lucky to be starting considering the mess of a lineout we've had in the last 18 months.

Provincial BS aside, I think Cullen would also be a contender, so realistically we have a possible list of Rory Best, Cullen, POC and Heaslip.

Captain has to be a forward imo

Nukem

First and foremost - Heaslip is a class player, Was it three years ago he scored and setup a few lovely tires against Bath in the HEC (I think) and he was about 22 at that time and he is just getting better. Not Captain material just yet, but give him time.

Leamy is a work horse and not a leader - simple as! He is a better No.6 than 8 but if push comes to shove and your stuck, still not a bad player incomparable to some players.

Capt i would say POC but he is just a bit too........I dunno, just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. Would love to see Bob Casey get a real crack at the 6N this year and he would be a good contender maybe next year for Capt as he is pretty motivational For L'Irish - always reminds me of M.Gallimh

RuggieBear

Nukem wrote: »

First and foremost - Heaslip is a class player, Was it three years ago he scored and setup a few lovely tires against Bath in the HEC (I think) and he was about 22 at that time and he is just getting better. Not Captain material just yet, but give him time.

Leamy is a work horse and not a leader - simple as! He is a better No.6 than 8 but if push comes to shove and your stuck, still not a bad player incomparable to some players.

Capt i would say POC but he is just a bit too........I dunno, just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. Would love to see Bob Casey get a real crack at the 6N this year and he would be a good contender maybe next year for Capt as he is pretty motivational For L'Irish - always reminds me of M.Gallimh

Casey really didn't look to great in the CC iirc but i agree that Heaslip is not ready for Captaincy yet

Besides BOD, I think Cullen/Best would make the best captain but cullen is not guaranteed a place and Best could come under pressure if Flannery was to rediscover his form of a season or two ago.

POC has his moments but he was shadow of himself for Ireland this past season

As for ROG the team looked leaderless against England this season...

Amazotheamazing

zAbbo wrote: »

Flannery isn't as good as Best, so it's a bit pointless.

I think the captaincy might rotate around a few players, Capello like

While Flannery is a better player than Best, can I call you on one little point.

You say we should consider picking a weaker player like Cullen for his leadership, but say we shouldn't consider Flannery because you think he's a weaker player than Best. Surely that just highlights how specious and biased your argument is?

You like Cullen, so you overlook he's flaws to have him as captain.

You dislike Flannery, so you conjure some flaws to keep him off the team and therefore dismiss him as a potential captain.

Any chance you can leave your bias at home and ask what's best for the team?

Eoin

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

While Flannery is a better player than Best, can I call you on one little point.

That's hardly a given.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You say we should consider picking a weaker player like Cullen for his leadership, but say we shouldn't consider Flannery because you think he's a weaker player than Best. Surely that just highlights how specious and biased your argument is?

Perhaps it is because Cullen is proven as a captain, and Flannery has probably proven that he's not suitable captain material at all.

jam_on_toast

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

While Flannery is a better player than Best, can I call you on one little point.

You say we should consider picking a weaker player like Cullen for his leadership, but say we shouldn't consider Flannery because you think he's a weaker player than Best. Surely that just highlights how specious and biased your argument is?

You like Cullen, so you overlook he's flaws to have him as captain.

You dislike Flannery, so you conjure some flaws to keep him off the team and therefore dismiss him as a potential captain.

Any chance you can leave your bias at home and ask what's best for the team?

I doubt cullen is that much a weaker player than the current 2nd rows we've got, if at all. O'Callaghan has been quite poor in a green shirt of late. O'Connell hasn't been covering himself in glory either.

I think it's fair to say O'Connell and especially O'Callaghan have just as many flaws to their game as Cullen.

Amz

Flannery can get a touch of the auld red mist at times in games. It would worry me that our captain is at risk of yellow cards and giving penalties away, particularly when/if we're doing badly and are in bad need of some leadership.

At the end of the day we can argue about this 'til the cows come home, but Kidney is the one who'll decide and it's impossible to guess where it'll go.

Amazotheamazing

Cullen is fourth, and will probably soon by sixth, best lock available.

POC, DOC and MOD are ahead of him as players, and Ryan and Caldwell will probably overtake him in the next season. I'm not counting O'Kelly who is arguably still ahead of him, due to O'Kelly's age.

MOD has also captained Munster, but like Cullen, he's just not a good enough player to a top level player.

Wrt Flannery, O'Donovan admitted he messed up the lineout calls for Ireland, so you can discount that it was Flannery who was the issue over the summer tour. Flannery is just a different calibre of player to Best, but that's a separate debate.

Amazotheamazing

eoin_s wrote: »

That's hardly a given.



Perhaps it is because Cullen is proven as a captain, and Flannery has probably proven that he's not suitable captain material at all.

When has Flannery proven that? Martin Johnson was known for having a quick temper, but it didn't hold him back. People might want a nice guy on the pitch to be captain, but they don't always make the best captain.

Eoin

I just don't think he keeps a cool head enough of the time.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Cullen is fourth, and will probably soon by sixth, best lock available.

POC, DOC and MOD are ahead of him as players

In the two games played between Leinster and Munster this season, Cullen was comfortably the best lock on display in both. I don't happen to think he's better than POC or DOC, but I would certainly have him ahead of MOD. His organisational work in the lineout and his captaincy skills are also exemplary. Ryan and Caldwell have potential, but neither are anywhere near as good as Cullen at the moment.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

In the two games played between Leinster and Munster this season, Cullen was comfortably the best lock on display in both. I don't happen to think he's better than POC or DOC, but I would certainly have him ahead of MOD. His organisational work in the lineout and his captaincy skills are also exemplary. Ryan and Caldwell have potential, but neither are anywhere near as good as Cullen at the moment.

If we're picking teams on ML performances, we'd stick with Jackman for hooker too, course, all his Int games have shown he can't handle the step up. Therein is the danger in rating players on the ML.

RuggieBear

perhaps jackman had the same issues with NOD's lineout as each irish hooker last season...?