Training for strength or size

corribdude

I've often seen the information given that doing high reps of lighter weights will do more for size than strength whereas as low reps of heavier weights will do more for strength than size.

So, in the case of a person consuming the same amount of daily calories does that mean if they are doing high reps/low weights they will be bulking up quicker, as in their body will weigh more not just be more muscular, than if they are doing heavy weights/low reps?

Hanley

corribdude wrote: »

I've often seen the information given that doing high reps of lighter weights will do more for size than strength whereas as low reps of heavier weights will do more for strength than size.

So, in the case of a person consuming the same amount of daily calories does that mean if they are doing high reps/low weights they will be bulking up quicker, as in their body will weigh more not just be more muscular, than if they are doing heavy weights/low reps?

It means that unless you're quite big, and very strong already you don't need to matter and should be doing both. You simply cannot have one without the other. You won't be truly big without getting ALOT stronger, and you won't shift really heavy weights without more muscle.

Besides, the question you asked has no definitive answer. Different people will respond in different ways to rep ranges. Hell over the course of a training career these needs might change too.

gabgab

Yeh I have always overthought stuff like this but if you think about it logically, if your able to lift massive weight, you will inevitably get bigger, and I reckon its more to do with diet than anything else,

I could be very wrong on that though,

ronbyrne2005

It is possible to structure training and diet to maximise muscle growth over strength. I know many guys with massive muscles(not steroid users) who would lift a lot less than smaller sized but stronger powerlifters. Strength specific training is different to bodybuilding.

gabgab

Very ture actually, I know big lads that are not as strong based on the big lifts as other smaller lads,

Degsy

If you lift enough weights and eat enough food you will get bigger AND stronger.There,you'll have the best of both worlds.Bodybuilders are more concerned with developing large muscles alongside fatloss to show them off to better efffect.Powerlifters are also concerned with developing large muscles but more for functionality and so they dont need to be as concerned with keeping the fat down.

Hanley

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

It is possible to structure training and diet to maximise muscle growth over strength. I know many guys with massive muscles(not steroid users) who would lift a lot less than smaller sized but stronger powerlifters. Strength specific training is different to bodybuilding.

Yeah of course. But if you take the AVERAGE guy in the AVERAGE gym, then the one who's bigger is going to be stronger. Do you not agree??

Everyone know's bodybuilders can be bigger without being stronger. But I don't tihnk any of us here are bodybuilders and pointing out specialist cases liek competitive BB's -v- PL's only muddies the water for the average guy.

I could go on to talk about sarcolplasmic hypertrophy versus myofibrillar hypertrophy and why the latter is "real" growth, which is better served by heavy weights and a more traditional powerlifting type approach but I'm not going to because it's only going to confuse people.

I don't know why people are always trying to point out the extreme cases as to why you should be over analzying everything. This board has never pretended to be for advanced discussion. It's always been beginners/intermediate's looking for advice. Very simply, if you want to be bigger, you need to eat more food and get stronger. Anyone who cares to debate that does not know what they are talking about.

airscotty

Big weights and low reps = bulk muscle + strength (obviously) Lower weight and high reps (12-15) = lean muscle + greater strenth to size ratio. So depends what your looking to achive or train 4.... personly i do triathlons so in the off season look 2 build lean muscle (low weight + 12-15 reps) and overall body and core strength (ab's). If i was a Rugby player i'd look 2 build bulky muscle and size so i'd do higher weigh + less reps.

Hanley

airscotty wrote: »

Big weights and low reps = bulk muscle + strength (obviously) Lower weight and high reps (12-15) = lean muscle + greater strenth to size ratio. So depends what your looking to achive or train 4.... personly i do triathlons so in the off season look 2 build lean muscle (low weight + 12-15 reps) and overall body and core strength (ab's). If i was a Rugby player i'd look 2 build bulky muscle and size so i'd do higher weigh + less reps.

What are "bulky" and "lean" muscles???

airscotty

It jus refers 2 size ie: rugby player to triathleat ... but i belive low weights high reps = higher strength 2 weight ratio.

daveywavey08

Is a muscle not a muscle?
What I find works for me is keeping my reps low and going as heavy as I can handle. I sometimes incorporate a lighter day on the same muscle group to allow recovery while also training them 2x a week. Different strokes for different folks

Hanley

airscotty wrote: »

It jus refers 2 size ie: rugby player to triathleat ... but i belive low weights high reps = higher strength 2 weight ratio.

But by saying "lean" muscle, there's the implication that some sort of "unlean" muscle must exist.

The two groups you speak of carry the exact same "types" of muscle, one just has more (to an extent before anyone calls me on different fibre compositions).

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

I don't know why people are always trying to point out the extreme cases as to why you should be over analzying everything. This board has never pretended to be for advanced discussion. It's always been beginners/intermediate's looking for advice. Very simply, if you want to be bigger, you need to eat more food and get stronger. Anyone who cares to debate that does not know what they are talking about.

I don't think anyone is going to argue with you there. I think there is so much talk about rep ranges going on that it bamboozles a lot of beginners though.

I know it did that to me.

In the last year I have tried them all I think,all 3 times a week, I started on 3x12 with no warmup set , as reccomended at the gym. After reading around the net a bit, I changed to doing 3x8 with 1 warm up set. About 2 months ago I changed to doing 5x5 on the big 3, deadlift, squat and bench with lots of warmup sets and all other lifts 3x8.

Doing 3x12 didn't seem to be doing much for my strength or muscle mass, hench the switch.

3x8 slowly increased my strength and seemed to add a lot of muscle mass, especially on my chest and shoulders.

Doing 5x5 has dramatically improved my strength for the big 3 lifts, I'm amazed at the results in such a short time. I do this as a 3 day split, 1 day for each lift, thanks to Hanley for that suggestion its really working well.


This is a stictly personal experience, but I'd say to the OP:

My point is that you should try them all and find what really works for you. I'm glad I did. I plan on sticking with my current routine until I plateau and then taking stock.

I also find that because doing 5x5 is making me stronger it is WAY more enjoyable to do, I look forward to every session immensly and leave with a huge sense of achievment every time I add a little more weight to a lift. Find something you enjoy and results will follow I reckon.

airscotty

Well yes a muscle is a muscle... but theres fast twitch(sprinter) and slow twitch (marathon runner) so its not that simple. But if your not training for a spacific sport n ur jus lookin 2 impress the chicks then your grand.;) See for me i wanna be as strong as i possible can..without being to much heavier.

daveywavey08

I know that there are fast and slow twitch fibres. And I know what you're trying to say now.

brianthebard

airscotty wrote: »

Well yes a muscle is a muscle... but theres fast twitch(sprinter) and slow twitch (marathon runner) so its not that simple. But if your not training for a spacific sport n ur jus lookin 2 impress the chicks then your grand.;) See for me i wanna be as strong as i possible can..without being to much heavier.

wha???Fast and slow twitch muscles aren't bulky or lean,where did you come up with this stuff?

airscotty

Its quite simple...if your lookin 2 be a tank do high weight low reps...if your lookin 2 be lean runner type do low weight high rep...

airscotty

brianthebard wrote: »

wha???Fast and slow twitch muscles aren't bulky or lean,where did you come up with this stuff?

From a sports science degree... where do you come up with it from?

Hanley

airscotty wrote: »

Well yes a muscle is a muscle... but theres fast twitch(sprinter) and slow twitch (marathon runner) so its not that simple. But if your not training for a spacific sport n ur jus lookin 2 impress the chicks then your grand.;).

I specifically mentioned a caveat about different types of muscle fibres, because I was expecting that response.

Well here's the kicker..... the "slow twitch" ones are the ones that get big and bulky. Mainly because thru high rep training you elicit sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. It's not actually the muscle cells that grow with the high rep training, it's the non-contractile mucle cell fluid - the sarcoplasm. This is absolutely great if you want to look bigger and more jacked, but it is NOT functional for a triathelte. Basically all you end up doing is carrying excess fluid weight that doesn't really do anything to help with your sport since it serves no strength increase.

However with fast twitch/type IIb fibres and low rep training, the actual muscle cell itself increases in size. While there is a size increase, it's not as pronounced as the sarcoplasmic increase in high rep training.

So if anything, doing high reps to improve your "lean" muscles and power to weight ratio is the absolute worst thing you could do because all you're doing is increasing your sarcoplasmic stores and not doing a whole lot for your actual strength levels.

Remember, size gains are going to be largely a function of increased calorie intake. High kcals = Big muscles, but since you're a triathlete who is probably consuming a sh!t ton of kcals, any "bulk" gains you make will be mininmal at best. If low reps and high weights meant you HAD to get considerably bigger then there'd be no lower weight classes in weightlifting and strength sport events.

EDIT:

See for me i wanna be as strong as i possible can..without being to much heavier

Sh!t. What would I know about that.

Hanley

airscotty wrote: »

From a sports science degree... where do you come up with it from?

It is an absolute tragedy if that is the level of knowledge that is being related thru sports science degrees these days. No wonder we suck at sport.

airscotty

This is true that the kcal intake is massive part of it. But here is a quote from a book.

"The slow twitch muscles are more efficient at using oxygen to generate more fuel (known as ATP) for continuous, extended muscle contractions over a long time"

"Because fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create fuel, they are much better at generating short bursts of strength or speed than slow muscles. However, they fatigue more quickly"

Its also common knowledge that distance athleats lift lower weights higher reps!! You cant argue that...?

Hanley

airscotty wrote: »

This is true that the kcal intake is massive part of it. But here is a quote from a book.

"The slow twitch muscles are more efficient at using oxygen to generate more fuel (known as ATP) for continuous, extended muscle contractions over a long time"

"Because fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create fuel, they are much better at generating short bursts of strength or speed than slow muscles. However, they fatigue more quickly"

Its also common knowledge that distance athleats lift lower weights higher reps!! You cant argue that...?

Lol... "a quote from a book". Great reference.

But I digress, it IS common knowledge. IN RELATION TO ENDURANCE. Not strength.

What I'm arguing is this little gem;

airscotty wrote: »

It jus refers 2 size ie: rugby player to triathleat ... but i belive low weights high reps = higher strength 2 weight ratio.

You're wrong. Flat out wrong. No two ways about it.

Low weights and high reps DO NOT equal better strength to weight ratio. I've no idea how you've even drawn this conclusion. They might make you a better endurance athlete, but THEY WILL NOT MAKE YOU STRONGER.

Look at the strongest guys in the world and how they train, low reps, high intensity. And they do all of this while having to stay within specific weight classes (ie NOT gain weight).

Dragan

Hanley, reign it in please.

Your close to an infraction based on this and other threads over the last week.

You can disagree with someone, even when they are clearly wrong ( sorry Airscotty, but i would very much disagree with what you are saying and would advise to either a) Read the first part of the charter or revise the way you are communication your ideas if it is a miscommunication ) in a polite manner.

Hanley wrote: »

Sh!t. What would I know about that.

Not everyone will be aware of your PL credentials or that fact that you are at the start of your PL career. Therefore it is a moot point in threads with non regulars and smacks of arrogance to assume someone would know/care about your own choosen path.

Leave the ego at Log in please.

airscotty

Sorry i did'nt realise i had to use the correct quotation method in this form!! Should i give you the page number?!! Yes... i was tryin 2 simplily it for the average joe showing the difference between rugby player type and distance runner. But yes the strongest man in the world does not use low weigh high reps. But ALL Senior Triathleat coachs say: Lift low weight and high reps 2 built strenght and keep weight down... now what they obviouly mean to say is do this to built endurance strength.

kevpants

airscotty wrote: »

Sorry i did'nt realise i had to use the correct quotation method in this form!! Should i give you the page number?!! Yes... i was tryin 2 simplily it for the average joe showing the difference between rugby player type and distance runner. But yes the strongest man in the world does not use low weigh high reps. But ALL Senior Triathleat coachs say: Lift low weight and high reps 2 built strenght and keep weight down... now what they obviouly mean to say is do this to built endurance strength.

But your argument was that you get more strength for your size if you do high repetitions with low weights. You don't.

You say these coaches want you to train to gain strength without putting on extra muscle and therefore weight, that makes perfect sense but I don't get the suggested method at all.

How many reps and what weight are you talking about?

If you want strength without bulk would it not make sense to train the one thing that can get stronger without any weight gains, your nervous system? These guys seem to be able to keep pretty lean and strong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5LMZSM_4NM

Would you say a triathlete has a better strength to size ration than them?

It's not uncommon for elite endurance athletes (marathon runners) to have a vertical leap of just a couple of inches.

I'm not slagging you or those athletes off, their achievments speak for themselves, but as far as strength goes they don't even register on the scale.

If you are training for endurance, train for endurance, if you're training for strength, lift heavy.

TKD SC

There was a quote from someone recently on this but I can't find it now.
I thought it said:
1rm - 3rm: Strength
4rm - 6rm: Strength & size
6rm - 12rm: Endurance & can't remember strength / size reference
> 12rm: a waste of time!

I know it simplifies things, and also I'm sure I've got the quote a bit wrong too, so maybe someone could correct it, but could be good to have a general guide as there does seem to be so many posts recently on reps.

Below is from : http://www.brianmac.co.uk/weight.htm

How Many
The number of repetitions performed to fatigue is an important consideration in designing a strength training program. The greatest strength gains appear to result from working with 4-6RM. Increasing this to 12-20RM favours the increase in muscle endurance and mass.

One set of 4-6RM performed 3 days a week is a typical strength training program. The optimal number of sets of an exercise to develop muscle strength remains controversial. In a number of studies comparing multiple set programs to produce greater strength gains than a single set, the majority of studies indicate that there is not a significant difference.

Handling heavy weights in the pursuit of strength will require a recovery of 3-5 minutes between sets, but only minimum recovery should be taken if strength endurance is the aim. The majority of athletic events are fast and dynamic, and therefore this quality must be reflected in the athlete's strength work.

Muscular strength is primarily developed when 8RM or less is used in a set. How much load you use depends upon what it is you wish to develop:

1RM to 3RM - neuromuscular strength
4RM to 6RM - maximum strength by stimulating muscle hypertrophy
6RM to 12RM - muscle size (hypertrophy) with moderate gains in strength (Fleck & Kraemer, 1996)
12RM to 20RM - muscle size and endurance
Different strength types and how to train for them
Most sports will require some or all of the following strength types to be developed to one degree or another and the weight training program should reflect this.

Strength Endurance
The aim is to develop muscles that are able to to produce repeated contractions under conditions of fatigue. This requires high repetitions (15+) with light loading (30-50% of 1RM). Appropriate for field sports, rowing and martial arts.

Power
The aim is to develop fast powerful movements. This requires medium number of repetitions (6-10) with medium to heavy loading (70-80% of 1RM). Appropriate for power based events e.g. sprinting, jumping (long jump), throwing (Javelin).

Maximum strength
The aim is to enable maximum loads to be lifted. This requires low number of repetitions (1-5) with heavy loads (80-100% of 1RM). Appropriate for Power Lifting, Olympic Lifting, Shot Putt.

Size with strength
The aim is to increase muscle size. This requires medium to high number of repetitions (8-12) with medium to heavy loading (70-80%+ of 1RM). Appropriate for Bodybuilding or sports like USA football where increased size is a valuable asset.