Cryogenics?

wolfsbane

MrPudding wrote: »

So when, exactly, does the soul depart?

MrP

Nothing in the Bible to give a definite moment. It seems logical to assume that once its 'home' (the brain) has perished, it would move on. Why hang around for an hour or more?

But this is where I have doubts about organ donation: The criteria for 'brain-death' have proved faulty before, with those so diagnosed later recovering. I would want brain-dead to mean really dead, not just "We think he's dead".

Others tell us they were dead for 15 minutes or whatever on the operating table, when they really mean their heart had stopped. I'm sure everyone here knows that is not death.

Flamed Diving

I think death is defined as when your brain stem ceases activity. I read that on an organ donor card.

wolfsbane

Biro said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvasean
I wish they'd tell me about this plan... Like when a loved one dies they turn to you and say "Don't worry, it's all part of god's plan". Gee thanks for the heads up guys

Ya, that's an answer that annoys me too.

I can understand it annoying you. If the loved one was not right with God, how can we be comforted to know their day of death was all foreordained by God? It was, but it was a day of disaster for them.

Only the Christian can be comforted in the face of death. They accept all God's providences as being for the best, and they can especially rejoice if the departed knew the Lord, for they have gone to be with Him.

When my unsaved friends experience loss of an unsaved loved one, I can only sympathise with them and pray for them, that they will lay this to heart and prepare themselves to meet their God.

wolfsbane

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I think death is defined as when your brain stem ceases activity. I read that on an organ donor card.

I've read of those so diagnosed who later recommenced activity, indeed recovered.

Flamed Diving

Hmm, I wont be carrying my donor card any longer then!

Dog Fan

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Hmm, I wont be carrying my donor card any longer then!

There could be an Igor out there looking for your brain, maybe?:D

My own belief is that if a person is dead, then that's it. they have gone beyond the realm of science. Hibernation may be possible, and that seems to be what one goes through if dropped in a frozen lake.
If you're short of frozen lakes the Irish Sea could probably suffice this summer!

MooseJam

lots of people have fallen into icy water and died only to be later revived, I would have thought that would put an end to the talk of souls

Fanny Cradock

Really? Impressive those stories are one would imagine that the lucky people involved were not brain dead, rather they were clinically dead and the frigid water slowed their metabolism to a crawl.

If anybody is interested in getting their head frozen all you have to do is pop over to California (the only place in the world such a thing is legal) and shell out the best part of $120,000 for the privilege. The idea is that companies such as Alcor will begin the process of cryostasis ASAP after the person has been pronounced legally dead. Alcor have kindly addressed any concerns the religious (and others) may have about their goals on their website. Apparently it's OK! :pac:

Legal, brain and clinical - I really though that after so many examples death wouldn't have been so complex.

Galvasean

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Really? Impressive those stories are one would imagine that the lucky people involved were not brain dead, rather they were clinically dead and the frigid water slowed their metabolism to a crawl.

Indeed, I'd say it's more a case of they were incredibly close to being dead and were mistaken for being dead.

Fanny Cradock

Galvasean wrote: »

Indeed, I'd say it's more a case of they were incredibly close to being dead and were mistaken for being dead.

Yeah! Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct solution.

JoeB-

see
http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/MolecularRepairOfTheBrain.htm

for an OK discussion on what death is and whether cyrogenics may be successful... also included is a definition of death that is technology independent...

quote
'If we could reliably determine that the physical structures encoding memory and personality had in fact been destroyed, then we would abandon hope and declare the person dead.'

They also agree that the definition of death has changed and is likely to continue to change... but that the 'Information Theoretic Criterion of Death' is absolute (although we can't confirm this death to have happened in all cases today, burning the brain and stirring the ashes is certainly sufficent for an irreversible death)


No-one has mentioned cloning either... if we clone a person a hundred times will God be happy to keep on providing new souls for these clones? There is amazingly a commercial company that will clone dead pets for people, just last week they produced five identical puppies that are clones of a single animal. So why not a human?

Fanny Cradock

JoeBallantine wrote: »

No-one has mentioned cloning either

I would suggest a different thread for that

TravelJunkie

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Not sure if I spelled that correctly, anyway! In the future, it may be possible to freeze your body after death, only to be resurrected afterwards due to the wonder of future medicine. If this science fiction scenario were to happen, what would be the implications for that persons soul?

Thoughts?

Doesn't sound appealing!

If the person's soul/spirit is linked to the body and the person is frozen but doesn't die - then the soul has to wait around 1,000 years in a small dark fridge. (Sound's like some people's idea of hell)

If on the other hand, you do die and you're a christian, you go to heaven and are in the middle of having a great time when your body is recusitated and you have to leave! sob.

If you're not a christian, well maybe waiting around for 1,000 might give a person a little perspective on life.

Pompey Magnus

Link

I suppose this is kind of related, a couple had their embryo frozen in liquid nitrogen and later had the embryo thawed out and implanted in the womb. From a scientific perspective this is just the quick freezing of a group of cells for later use, however from a Christian perspective it seems to be indistinguishable from cryogenics as this is apparently a human being put into suspended animation for a long period of time before being thawed out in the future.

Soul Winner

anti-venom wrote: »

Interesting question! This might be the very thing that would finally dispel this crazy idea of having a soul.

But what if after the first few successful regenerations from a cryogenically frozen state that the regenerated people started to tell you that there is life after death after all? That they have just been there and you took them back out of it to this life? Would you believe then that souls do in fact exist? I doubt many atheists would be swayed by it. It wouldn't necessarily prove that souls do in fact exist but neither would bringing people back from the dead years after they have been cryogenically frozen prove that they don't.

Who knows but it might not even be the case that we are bodies that have souls after all, rather we are in fact souls that have bodies, and that after the physical death of the body (or as some view it, the temporary dwelling place for the soul down here) that the soul returns back from whence it came, except with a more refined personality, depth of character and possibly a few more faculties and senses built up and stored in our psyche due to life’s experiences down here. Ready to be utilized once the death of the body has taken place. Maybe transitioning from life down here to everlasting life (if it exists) is akin to the emergence of a butterfly from its cocoon. The first phase of its development being fraught with crawling on tiny appendages and much foraging, to be replaced with graceful flight and nectar drinking.

Galvasean

I can imagine someone who went to heaven and was brought back would not be pleased.