Bus lobby group

markpb

markpb wrote: »

Dublin bus (not Dublin Bus) passengers badly need a lobby group like RUI to lobby for them, to put more political pressure on the DoT and to try to put a truthful message when stuff like this happens.

John R wrote: »

Then why don't you start one?

As it happens I think that it is a very good idea and something that is long overdue. I do think it is a pity that P11/RUI were not at all interested in non-rail public transport as one central pressure group would have more clout than several smaller groups but they were not at all interested when I tried to bring the topic up.

I've always wondered why no-one ever set up a lobby group for bus passengers in Dublin. What do the great minds of the C&T forum think about doing it?

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

Ste.phen

+1

Heart

Sounds great.

H

IIMII

What about to include Bus Éireann for the GDA to cater for the Dulchie diaspora and commuting culchies from Meath to the Wexicans in the deep south - they sit on the buses to the front and rear of the Dublin buses, stuck in the same traffic and suffering from the the same CIÉ malaise

Take the Trim and Kells bus stop sagas as examples, and extra buses etc for Ashbourne

DWCommuter

IIMII wrote: »

What about to include Bus Éireann for the GDA to cater for the Dulchie diaspora and commuting culchies from Meath to the Wexicans in the deep south - they sit on the buses to the front and rear of the Dublin buses, stuck in the same traffic and suffering from the the same CIÉ malaise

Take the Trim and Kells bus stop sagas as examples, and extra buses etc for Ashbourne

What about a public transport lobby for the GDA incorporating road, rail and bus?:D:D:D

In reality that's what is needed and keep the egg heads, agenda nuts and enthusiasts out of it. A real force made up of motorists and public transport users. Now that would be a cracking army.

IIMII

True. We all sit in the same traffic, queues serviced by the same ineptitude

What would you call it though? That's a wide net. Commuters Ireland? With a website called www.transport21victims.ie

DWCommuter

IIMII wrote: »

True. We all sit in the same traffic, queues serviced by the same ineptitude

What would you call it though? That's a wide net. Commuters Ireland? With a website called www.transport21victims.ie

I knew you'd nibble on that one buddy!:D

How about something simple like dublincommuter.ie?

It would be the biggest kick up the arse ever delivered to an Irish Government and its state transport bodies. Its definetly an organisation worth setting up as the issues are now so wide and varied that the likes of RUI have become stale and limited in scope, despite its success over the years. An RUI/P11 type set up for all commuting modes (even bikes and pedestrians) would be a massive undertaking, but is very possible and achievable.:eek:

popebenny16

its a very good idea, but a massive undertaking. I'm sure AlekSmart and a few others who post here would be ideal candidates, there have been some very thought provoking posts in that area. You'd want to talk to the Gairaiste lads and I think there's a few bus related sites and forums out there too.

As for the rest of commuters, well, start with the AA, there's the Dublin Cycle Campaign, ourselves in RUI, all could be linked or associated with it in some way.

As for RUI not doing it, it's the same reason why the NSPCC isn't in the Cat rescuing business, innit? Doing the trains is time consuming as it is and not many members would have the expertise or the insight to do it (I was a bus conductor in a long forgotton past life , ah well, stale bread is soon forgotton)

Ham'nd'egger

With the greatest of respect to the guys in Garaiste, some of them are Dublin Bus staffers and high profile people so they wouldn't be the most ideal people to be involved in something like this.

That said, it is an excellent idea and I would wish them the very best of luck:)

popebenny16 wrote: »

its a very good idea, but a massive undertaking. I'm sure AlekSmart and a few others who post here would be ideal candidates, there have been some very thought provoking posts in that area. You'd want to talk to the Gairaiste lads and I think there's a few bus related sites and forums out there too.

As for the rest of commuters, well, start with the AA, there's the Dublin Cycle Campaign, ourselves in RUI, all could be linked or associated with it in some way.

As for RUI not doing it, it's the same reason why the NSPCC isn't in the Cat rescuing business, innit? Doing the trains is time consuming as it is and not many members would have the expertise or the insight to do it (I was a bus conductor in a long forgotton past life , ah well, stale bread is soon forgotton)

markf909

An RUI/P11 type set up for all commuting modes (even bikes and pedestrians) would be a massive undertaking, but is very possible and achievable

Without sounding like a crusty SIPTU rep but a "union" or "congress" of the various lobby groups seems to make the most sense.
Getting the bus lobby up without diluting its focus would be a great start.

AlekSmart

Whilst the general principle is indeed a good one I can see where the scepticism of Ham`n egger and others is coming from.

There have been many instances of representative bodies being set up with a huge deal of good will and intentions,however once the initial blast subsides the actual mind numbing day to day running of such an operation tends to lead to gradual stagnation,P11/RUI being a case in point.

Another major obstacle in the case of Dublin Public Transport is the TOTAL power wielded by a Government Department which can be truly described as "restricted" in its outlook in relation to PUBLIC Transport.

Take,for example,the incredible complexity which the Department of Transport has woven into the "Integrated Ticketing" programme.

As the lead agency in Public Transport provision the Department could have,at a stroke,made a single huge leap forward by including FULL compatibility with Dublin Bus/Dart/Bus Eireann as an integral part of the Luas operating contract from Day 1.

Instead we (The Public) were presented with a load of quite obvious nonsense about different operators being allowed to introduce their own "Smart" card systems which would at some future date be integrated into a single entity.

This was very obviously nonsense of the first degree and yet the Departments Crazy Notion section was given free and unchallenged rein to press on regardless and in the process spend some €40 Million on NOTHING.

Everywhere we look in relation to Public Transport in the Greater Dublin Region we come upon more evidence of Departmental,and by association Ministerial incompetence on a grand scale.
Nothing appears to faze these people who remain totally unaccountable to anybody for their actions (or more properly INactions).

As a Dublin Bus employee I hold no torch for it`s management or for its corporate policies,many of which I disagree strongly with.

However I do consider that the companys present resources and enthusiasm are being largely frittered away by the lack of interest and attention to detail of the Departmental Oversight team.

Perhaps the single greatest advance in Bus operations in Dublin would be the reduction of Bus Stop dwell time,something which can only be achieved by the abandonment of the current DUTC based Fare/Stage principle of revenue collection.

At least 50% of my Bus- Stop dwell time is spent answering the same question...."How much is it to......"
Once this question is asked and answered it brings into play a secondary process whereby the questioner must then delve deeply into their pocket/bag/purse for a selection of Silver dollars/Lev`s/Yen and count the amount out,only after first proffering a Banknote though.

This procedure is,to put it bluntly,unacceptable in the context of a modern Capital City`s mass transit system.
I would suggest that unless the current cash-based system is seriously modified or abandoned then NO,repeat NO progresss in reducing Bus journey times/reliability will be possible,Smart Card or no Smart Card.

Dublin Bus for it`s part has had several attempts to modify it`s DUTC era fare/stage system struck down by a Dickensian administration.

Most recently the attempt to combine the Euro Changeover with a new simpler fare structure was deemed so avant-garde that the Department required the company to provide TWO Free-Fare week-ends to "Compensate" passengers for the companys insolence.

Current Department of Transport policy is to do absolutely nothing which will allow Dublin Bus/Bus Eireann to Improve/Add/Modify or Divert a service as it could have a bearing on court proceedings allegedly in place somewhere in darkest Brussels.

This has allowed such muppetry as the Circle Line Bus "collapse" to occur without prompting any response from the Department itslef other than a few oul "Letters from the Minister" outlining his displeasure....

Instead we read endless accounts of how "Inadequate" the 1932 Road Transport Act is and how it is Impossible to administer the countrys public transport with it in place.......

All I can say to that is HMMMMMM.....as any sections I have perused appear remarkably clear about what powers a Minister for Transport has and very specific guidelines about when and where he/she may use those powers....

In summary,whilst I would welcome a pressure group I feel that it must be preceeded by a thorough clean-out of the current Department of Transport higher echelon which almost to a (wo)man are products of a,by now,thoroughly discredited Political system dating back to the mid 1970`s.

The only challenges,in Bus Transport terms which these people have faced came from outside their parish,in the shape of former Dublin Bus Managing Directors,Bob Montgomery (UK) and Dr Alan Westwell (UK),both of whom it could be said departed before completing their programmes of work.

So whats it to be then...sit and wait tor the Dublin Transpory Authority I suppose and gaze in wonderment at the cast-list which will accompany it`s senior management roll call...????

Retirement to the South of France has never been more appealing !!!!!

markpb

I'm well aware of the challenges facing such a group (I'm already involved in one other government lobby group) especially with the overbearing attitude currently prevailing in the DoT but I still think it could be successful.

Ignoring the thorny political issues, DB (and the other operators) have a long way to go on communication (route planners, route maps, a decent information phone number, RTIS, more information at bus stops) and on general operation (clock face timetables, hell even realistic timetables).

DCC and the other councils need to hear the voice of bus passengers instead of just the AA. When they want to close a lane to traffic and turn it into a bus lane, someone needs to be there to say congratulations instead of having the AA moaning about less priority for tax paying car drivers). When they're not doing their jobs and leaving buses stuck in traffic, someone needs to poke them to fix it.

When the Gardai, Traffic Corp or the clampers don't bother doing their jobs (such as in the suburbs or at Connolly where DB lost a bus stop to Garda inaction), a passenger lobby group could be there to tell people the truth and to shame them into doing something about it.

There's a world of changes need to be made before starting to beat the DoT for their failings and when that needs to be done, DB are the worst people in the world to do it because the people at the top are more or less political appointees so they're not going to publicly bite the hand that feeds them but someone needs to.

loyatemu

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps the single greatest advance in Bus operations in Dublin would be the reduction of Bus Stop dwell time,something which can only be achieved by the abandonment of the current DUTC based Fare/Stage principle of revenue collection.

At least 50% of my Bus- Stop dwell time is spent answering the same question...."How much is it to......"
Once this question is asked and answered it brings into play a secondary process whereby the questioner must then delve deeply into their pocket/bag/purse for a selection of Silver dollars/Lev`s/Yen and count the amount out,only after first proffering a Banknote though.

2 solutions here

1. Conductors FTW!
2. €1 flat fare

as well as (as I've said several times before) getting rid of half the bloody stops altogether.

everything thats been done with DB so far has been pointless tinkering around the edges - the service is still very poor (the efforts of some of the employees notwithstanding). It needs redesign from the ground up.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

I'm well aware of the challenges facing such a group (I'm already involved in one other government lobby group) especially with the overbearing attitude currently prevailing in the DoT but I still think it could be successful.

Ignoring the thorny political issues, DB (and the other operators) have a long way to go on communication (route planners, route maps, a decent information phone number, RTIS, more information at bus stops) and on general operation (clock face timetables, hell even realistic timetables).

DCC and the other councils need to hear the voice of bus passengers instead of just the AA. When they want to close a lane to traffic and turn it into a bus lane, someone needs to be there to say congratulations instead of having the AA moaning about less priority for tax paying car drivers). When they're not doing their jobs and leaving buses stuck in traffic, someone needs to poke them to fix it.

When the Gardai, Traffic Corp or the clampers don't bother doing their jobs (such as in the suburbs or at Connolly where DB lost a bus stop to Garda inaction), a passenger lobby group could be there to tell people the truth and to shame them into doing something about it.

There's a world of changes need to be made before starting to beat the DoT for their failings and when that needs to be done, DB are the worst people in the world to do it because the people at the top are more or less political appointees so they're not going to publicly bite the hand that feeds them but someone needs to.

Well put.

However, one small point, there is an updated route map now available from Dublin Bus Head Office dated January 2008 priced EUR 3.00, and the company are starting a major upgrade on bus stop information.

The RTIS was deferred by Government - DB were all set to go with it several years ago, but is finally in the design phase.

I do think that DB are starting to get their focus right, but it's a battle.

The real fight is with the civil servants, politicians, and journalists who are not looking at this with a consumer's perspective at all, but see it as DB -v- the private operators.

KC61

loyatemu wrote: »

2 solutions here

1. Conductors FTW!
2. €1 flat fare

as well as (as I've said several times before) getting rid of half the bloody stops altogether.

everything thats been done with DB so far has been pointless tinkering around the edges - the service is still very poor (the efforts of some of the employees notwithstanding). It needs redesign from the ground up.

Both those solutions would require a major increase in the state subvention in order to cover increased costs, given the current fare structure of EUR 1.05 to EUR 2.00 in the general city area.

Smart Cards, with a flat fare structure of perhaps EUR 1.50 (with a higher fare for longer distance routes) would be a less costly method. Look at London, where everyone uses Oyster and as a result greatly diminishes dwell times.

IIMII

KC61 wrote: »

The real fight is with .... journalists who are not looking at this with a consumer's perspective at all, but see it as DB -v- the private operators.

The journalists are relatively easy. Just recognise they are lazy and time poor in differing measures depending on who you are dealing with.

For a press release that will get covered, organise your arguement, outline the problem, define a solution and throw in a few quotes so they can adjust it to their liking.

Try to keep it to 300 words, starting with the most relevant information at the top tapering it off with less important information that if truncated by an editor short of space, the arguement doesn't suffer.

Include a good quality photo (complete the file info), and a snappy to the point introductory sentence and hey presto you have a press release that involves little or no work for a local journalist.

The national papers are a wee bit different. Make their version longer with more quotes to choose from, and find out if the have different email addresses for text and pics.

Once you make the job easy for the journalists, you'll get coverage. Once you get coverage, the politicians pay attention. Once the politicians pay attention, the civil servants pay attention.

Simple isn't easy, but there is huge public interest in all aspects of public transport.

Re the disipation of energy from lobby groups, part of RUI/P11 losing their edge is partly down to a preoccupation with trying to distance so-called rail-users from the so-called "trainspotting" fraternity. Unfortunately, the knowledgable "enthusiastic rail user" can sometimes be a victim under that policy

It was a good enthusiastic working knowledge of how our railways work (warts, technical and the mundane) that made P11/RUI successful in the first place, and drew people to the board as place to get answers to questions.

I know there are bus-spotters out there, but that's life and so what as long as issues are identified and knowlegably addressed.

I know if I was a pissed off bus user (as opposed to just being a pissed off motorist), I'd be very interested in finding out the causes of problems and I wouldn't give a damn whether I got the answers from a bus inspector or an anorak as long as what I was told the truth and not pfo bullology

I think if you go down this road, you should pick out a mission statement and stick to it ("to serve and to protect bus users" or some such waffle). It won't be everybody's cup of tea but if you clearly define what the organisation is about from the start it'll help.

Education is empowerment so try to organise a web presence that gives full information and easy access to all visitors so they can make informed arguements wheneever they are affected, and a forum (if you set one up) that allows open discussion on all bus related issues from ride quality to no ride showing at all - people speed-read or skip the stuff they aren't interested in

It's all relevant customer feedback - just be thankful you don't have a loco hauled stock as part of the bus fleets.:)

DWCommuter

IIMII wrote: »

Re the disipation of energy from lobby groups, part of RUI/P11 losing their edge is partly down to a preoccupation with trying to distance so-called rail-users from the so-called "trainspotting" fraternity. Unfortunately, the knowledgable "enthusiastic rail user" can sometimes be a victim under that policy

Eh no, it was purely and simply down to me leaving and a trainspotter taking over. Honestly.:D

But seriously, the aspect you describe is very true. Once you start talking infrastructure on the net, every egg head comes on board. The net is a great launch pad, but a horrible place to reside. I wanted more on the ground stuff, but couldn't find the support from members or even committee colleagues.

In saying this, I'd still recommend a general commuting representative body. A council of existing bodies is a recipe for disaster. Amalgamate and designate roles with a clearly defined policy.

Please note, Im recommending and would want nothing to do with it. I served my time and got released.:D

IIMII

That's fair enough. But let's face it, an "egg-head" can be a walking encyclo[edia of why this, that and the other doesn't work. If you consider it another way, an "egg-head" is somebody that bothers to find out why things work (or don't as the case may be).

The problems arise when the egg-headedness becomes preoccupied with turning transport into life-size model railwayism. I often think it harsh when crayon-ism is hammered for just being that - it's the motivation behind it that is the problem. For example whoever crayoned the interconnector first did some service whereas whoever crayoned some other projects (using a stencil over 19th century maps in some cases) may not really have been as helpful.

Just in relation to RUI - I think P11 was at it's best when it crayoned and then debated, rather than when it crayoned and banned. Even when some of the stuff was barmy it was interesting to see the why's of it fleshed out. Like the idea to turn one lane of the port tunnel into a railway

Bususers.ie is a great idea, but I also think a commutersireland.ie is also a great idea as one of the biggest problems with transport infrastructure is lack of integration, and why mirror that in transport lobbying?

I'd love to be able to log onto one site where all of the ills of Irish transport (ie the causes of gridlock) were discussed, considered, campaigned upon and even possibly resolved.

It's unfortunate that something like that is unlikely to come about - this board is the closest I know of, with secondary options of archiseek, garaiste, rui and irn

Pity because the gridlock and wastage of financial resources out there in may cases is unnessessary, and the same county councils and civil service mandarins screw all of them up

popebenny16

RUI is a democratic organisation. If members want to change things, they can do it at AGM. The particular changes which posters are complaining of here were approved by the members of RUI.

This has resulted in a massive improvement in media profile focusing on real consumer issues, not tunnels to the moon.

DWCommuter knows full well that no one person runs RUI.

I know I'm going to be accused to turning this into a RUI thread, when in fact all I am doing is responding to comments which have been made above.

There are over 1000 buses in dublin, many routes, lots of streets, and you can all get your big map out and crayon away.

markpb

IIMII wrote: »

What about to include Bus Éireann for the GDA to cater for the Dulchie diaspora and commuting culchies from Meath to the Wexicans in the deep south - they sit on the buses to the front and rear of the Dublin buses, stuck in the same traffic and suffering from the the same CIÉ malaise

BE should definitely be included. If nothing else, any improvements we can have made to the road network will benefit BE (and the other private operators) by default.

popebenny16 wrote: »

You'd want to talk to the Gairaiste lads and I think there's a few bus related sites and forums out there too.

Hamndegger wrote: »

With the greatest of respect to the guys in Garaiste, some of them are Dublin Bus staffers and high profile people so they wouldn't be the most ideal people to be involved in something like this.

It's handy to be able to contact knowledgeable people on the inside, even if it's just to run ideas past them. They don't need to join, just to be aware of us. I posted a message on the board just to gauge interest but haven't seen any replies yet.

DWCommuter wrote: »

What about a public transport lobby for the GDA incorporating road, rail and bus?:D:D:D

markf909 wrote: »

Without sounding like a crusty SIPTU rep but a "union" or "congress" of the various lobby groups seems to make the most sense.
Getting the bus lobby up without diluting its focus would be a great start.

This is the crux of the issue. In my heart I know a commuters lobby group would, in the long term, be the best thing possible for Dublin. Like another poster said, it's hard to complain about lack of integration when the lobby groups aren't integrated. It would also give us an even larger membership base which is all important when it comes to dealing with politicians.

On the other hand, I'm afraid that a group that encompasses pedestrians, bus passengers, rail passengers, cyclists and drivers would be so disparate and torn in it's objectives that getting anything done would be a nightmare. I'm sure there's a way to solve that problem though, maybe someone can suggest something?

Before this thread gets too off topic, what do people think a lobby group could have as it's short, medium and long term goals? I'll get the ball rolling with a few of mine:

Short:
Better parking enforcement
Use double doors where available

Medium:
Route planner and route maps on their website
Better information at the bus stops (the current upgrade isn't good enough)
More bus priority measures
RTIS

Long:
Bus terminals at Heuston, Connolly and elsewhere
Bus bays at Westmoreland St
Reformation of bus licensing legislation and creation of useful DTA
Closure of city centre streets to private traffic

Victor

Can we keep this about buses, not trains or RUI? Sure there are overlaps, but lets not make it the primary focus.