Palestinian child shot dead by Israeli soldiers

dlofnep

Israeli soldiers shot dead a young Palestinian boy today during heated protests in a West Bank village close to Israel’s huge separation barrier.

Hammad Hossam Mussa, believed to be around nine years old, was mortally wounded by an Israeli bullet as protestors threw rocks near the West Bank close to the village of Nilin.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4425395.ece

Manic Moran

So who in their right mind decides to bring along their 9-year-old kid when going to go stone soldiers?

NTM

CPT. SURF

Manic Moran wrote: »

So who in their right mind decides to bring along their 9-year-old kid when going to go stone soldiers?

NTM

Someone who deserves it in your opinion obviously.

IRISH RAIL

After tear gas and rubber bullets when he throws a rock and hits a border gaurd in the eye (he may lose his eye ) ill ask that question again what parent brings there 9 year old out for a riot?

and it wasnt a "peaceful protest" this has been going on for a few days all with the same thing stone and firebomb Israelis

CPT. SURF

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

ill ask that question again what parent brings there 9 year old out for a riot?

A parent who deserves to have their nine year old child shot and killed. Right?

El Stuntman

oh jaysis, not another tiresome thread that mirrors the polarisation in the ME

they're getting old

dlofnep

Firstly, their farm land had been conviscated by Israel - Under those circumstances, what is the right way to "protest"?

Secondly, where does it state that his parents brought him to protest? He could of by all means been playing with some friends in the area.

Thirdly, it doesn't matter if he was protesting or with his parents - What matters is that the Israels murdered a 9 year old child. Are you trying to justify his death?

eoin5

Manic Moran wrote: »

So who in their right mind decides to bring along their 9-year-old kid when going to go stone soldiers?

NTM

No-one, but being unhinged isnt necessarily their own fault.

jhegarty

dlofnep wrote: »

what is the right way to "protest"?

I suggest without children would be the right way

dlofnep

jhegarty wrote: »

I suggest without children would be the right way

And who said the child was protesting? I don't see you commenting on the more obvious wrong here, and that's the murder of a 9 year old child.

Bubs101

dlofnep wrote: »

Firstly, their farm land had been conviscated by Israel - Under those circumstances, what is the right way to "protest"?

Thirdly, it doesn't matter if he was protesting or with his parents - What matters is that the Israels murdered a 9 year old child. Are you trying to justify his death?

I would suggest that a peaceful protest is the best way to do it. The Palestinians must be insane to think that those kind of protests are going to garner results. Judging from past experiences all it garners is deaths.

Secondly, it's not reported that he was murdered. There's a massive difference between

was mortally wounded by an Israeli bullet as protestors threw rocks near the West Bank

and

The killing of the boy is the first such fatality since 2005, when a 13-year-old Palestinian boy was shot for getting too close to the fence in a protest.

The first one appears to have been an accidental killing while the second one was "murder"

dlofnep

Hey, when you shoot at people - People die. That's murder, no matter what way you look at it. Stop taking the thread off-topic. An innocent child has died at the hands of Israeli Soldiers, who were recently only up for torturing another child who was only 10 years old. Their human rights abuses must be addresssed.

Playboy

Bubs101 wrote: »

The first one appears to have been an accidental killing while the second one was "murder"

lol .. accidental death! Collateral damge blah blah blah. If it was your own child I would like to see what your response would be.

dlofnep

Playboy wrote: »

lol .. accidental death! Collateral damge blah blah blah. If it was your own child I would like to see what your response would be.

Exactly. People are awful judgmental of kids, when it's not one of their own.

CCCP^

Indeed, who brings a child to a protest which concerns his future? Unthinkable. Moreover, who even brings up a child in Palestine? What cheek they have! Good on the Israeli's for pacifying the recalcitrant tribes people! That will show 'em not to protest at their own extermination!

wes

The horrid cycle of violence continues in the Israel/Palestinian conflict. The child's murder is horrifying. Whats also horrifying is how quickly some will seek to excuse and diminish what happened. It goes to show how little a Palestinians life is worth.

**EDIT**
For those trying to blame the parents:

From the Guardian.co.uk:

"We told him not to go down [to the protests], but he wouldn't listen," the boy's aunt, Khadija Moussa, said in a telephone interview.

I am simply astonished that the boys parents were being blamed.

What is doubly astonishing is that Israel is building its apartheid wall on Palestinian land, and are violating international law while doing so and yet Israel is some how blame less.

Also, I know the security excuse Israel is employing, which is completely ridiculous. Firstly, the Israel/Palestine conflict is primarily over land, so stealing more land will exacerbate that. Secondly, there wall would work just as well built on Israeli land. I fail to see the need to steal what little there is left of Palestine and how that could possibly help with Israel's security.

Manic Moran

Ah, so the kid had a discipline issue. And who is to blame when kids display a lack of discipline? Their teachers? The Israelis? The parents? Oh, hang on...

Indeed, who brings a child to a protest which concerns his future?

That would seem to be a reasonable thing to do. However, given that the 'protests' seem (particularly this series) to routinely devolve into attacking soldiers, I might submit perhaps being a little more forceful towards the sprog. I mean, tell me that your dad ever instructed you not to go somewhere at age ten, you said 'no', and he let you get away with it. I sure as hell didn't.

If it was going to be a peaceful protest, I'll agree with you. If you wish to argue that peaceful protests would be of no effect and violence is required, I would then submit that if you're going to play 'big boy rules', you're going to have to expect pretty nasty consequences. Let the violence be carried out by military-aged people, or else don't complain when kids get killed.

This is an entirely separate issue to 'is the wall a good idea'. It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or not, common sense will tell you that if a bunch of soldiers perceive a threat, they're going to shoot. Even if you're not planning on partaking in any provocative actions yourself, it's not a good idea to hang around those who are. The follow-on from this is that if you believe that the Israelis should not ordinarily have been shooting at that time, then the age of the person they hit is irrelevant.

NTM

IRISH RAIL

Ive a few things here to get off my chest before I never come on the politics forum again.

First is how many people have been to Israel and the autonoumous regions...
untill you have been there and seen first hand what happens then you have an outsiders view.

secondly, what kind of parent would let there children go to a riot ( the same kind who would abandon there kids then give out when they are kidnapped?) grow up no kids under 18 should be allowed there, the rason they want to go is because there minds are poisioned by al maynaar tv showing kids as fedayeen ( ill post the proof up in the morning its been on boards before)

third, people in Ireland sem to have this weird idea that Ireland and palestinians have a joint cause if you look thru history you will find nothing that brings these two sides together quite the opposite Israel and Ireland have an awful lot in common from being oppressed to fighting the british for thier homeland, we both did it the same way why did Ireland turn against Israel ??

fourth. Terrorism is acceptable to a lot of twisted minds who see it as a freedom fighters struggle ffs look past your narrow mind was 9/11 justified was the bulldozer attack in Yerushalim justified???

and the argument of they have no other way to fight is just pathetic absoulutly pathetic,

GuanYin

I'm confused, are people actually suggesting that if a child die through misadventure thatthe child deserved it and the parents are to blame? No parents can watch a child 24/7.

Secondly, are people suggesting that there is ANY circumstance where it is OK for a soldier to shoot a child that is not posing a risk to his/her life?

BlaasForRafa

This thread is just being used as another opportunity by the usual suspects to beat up on Israel.

Does a new thread get opened when an Israeli citizen is killed by a rocket attack?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

ah arabs, they're only worth 1/4 of a jew and 1/7th of a white person.

at the end of the day, who really gives a ****, right lads?

some serious scum on this thread.

[edit] Banned 1 week for abuse - Guan Yin

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This thread is just being used as another opportunity by the usual suspects to beat up on Israel.

Does a new thread get opened when an Israeli citizen is killed by a rocket attack?

Look, this is typical. Get attacked for trying to highlight the death of an innocent child as an attack on Israel. A child was killed, and you're just going to have to accept it. If you don't like the fact that Israeli soldiers are to blame, then I'm sorry. But you're going to have to accept it.

Secondly, even if the boy's parents brought him down there - it's a moot point. It still doesn't give soldiers the right to use excessive force, especially when the crowd is full of youngsters. Israeli soldiers shot a 9 year old child and killed him. They are to blame, not the boy's parents. Anything else is just skipping around the reality of the matter and trying to place the blame elsewhere, because of an inability to accept Israel's army's injustice.

Sand

I dont know the situation in which the boy possibly died, but just to confirm, there is an actual body this time and there was an autopsy to confirm he was killed by an IDF bullet?

The Palestinians must be insane to think that those kind of protests are going to garner results. Judging from past experiences all it garners is deaths.

It brings great results - dead kids. Then you can trumpet to the world "Look at the demonic israelis!!!! Look at these monsters!!!!!"

Great propaganda for the cause.

Oh and for anyone who feels appalled that I consider the Palestinians might be so cold and calculating regarding the lives of their own children [ we already know they will happily murder Israeli children]....

14 year old suicide bomber.....not shot by the IDF

Oh, and this girl isnt a child technically, but was clearly someone taken advantage of. Again, also not shot by the IDF even when she tried twice to detonate her suicide belt.

dlofnep

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

third, people in Ireland sem to have this weird idea that Ireland and palestinians have a joint cause if you look thru history you will find nothing that brings these two sides together quite the opposite Israel and Ireland have an awful lot in common from being oppressed to fighting the british for thier homeland, we both did it the same way why did Ireland turn against Israel ??

This has nothing to do with Palestine or Israel as nations. This has to do with the Israeli soldiers using over-excessive force and killing a child. We don't owe either of them sympathy for killing children. If Hamas killed an Israeli child, then they should be condemned just as quick. But whether you believe it or not, you're trying to justify that the life of an Israeli s worth more than the life of a Palestinian. This is what we have a problem with.

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

Ah, so the kid had a discipline issue. And who is to blame when kids display a lack of discipline? Their teachers? The Israelis? The parents? Oh, hang on...

Israel stealing land again and killing civilians. This happens a lot. They are engaged in an act of aggression, so blaming the aggressor for civilian death is perfectly reasonable.

Manic Moran wrote: »

That would seem to be a reasonable thing to do. However, given that the 'protests' seem (particularly this series) to routinely devolve into attacking soldiers, I might submit perhaps being a little more forceful towards the sprog. I mean, tell me that your dad ever instructed you not to go somewhere at age ten, you said 'no', and he let you get away with it. I sure as hell didn't.

I would say that Israel sending soldiers into area's where civilians live and to cut there land in half is going to result in civilian deaths. Perhaps Israel should build the wall on there own side.

Manic Moran wrote: »

If it was going to be a peaceful protest, I'll agree with you. If you wish to argue that peaceful protests would be of no effect and violence is required, I would then submit that if you're going to play 'big boy rules', you're going to have to expect pretty nasty consequences. Let the violence be carried out by military-aged people, or else don't complain when kids get killed.

I would submit that Israel cease there act of aggression and violation of international law. If Israel stop building there wall on other peoples land, the protest would not occur. Perhaps Israel should play by big boy rules and respect the rule of law, that they expect there neighbors to adhere to, while they violate it as they please.

Manic Moran wrote: »

This is an entirely separate issue to 'is the wall a good idea'. It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or not, common sense will tell you that if a bunch of soldiers perceive a threat, they're going to shoot. Even if you're not planning on partaking in any provocative actions yourself, it's not a good idea to hang around those who are. The follow-on from this is that if you believe that the Israelis should not ordinarily have been shooting at that time, then the age of the person they hit is irrelevant.

NTM

Its the same issue, the Israeli's send soldiers to steal other peoples land. They are the aggressors and clearly at fault. They simply had no business being there in the first place. Why were the IDF there at all. Perhaps they should stop stealing land if they want security that they claim to want.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

First is how many people have been to Israel and the autonoumous regions...
untill you have been there and seen first hand what happens then you have an outsiders view.

Have you been to the Palestinians territories? Have you lived there for an extended period of time? How many here have been there and done this. I am going to go out a limb and say most posting here have never been. This of course doesn't invalidate there opinions. Neither does never having been to Israel. I fail to see how being an outside makes anyone opinion of less value.

Also, I have no clue of these autonomous regions you speak of. I have never heard of them.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

secondly, what kind of parent would let there children go to a riot ( the same kind who would abandon there kids then give out when they are kidnapped?) grow up no kids under 18 should be allowed there, the rason they want to go is because there minds are poisioned by al maynaar tv showing kids as fedayeen ( ill post the proof up in the morning its been on boards before)

The parents didn't allow there child to go to a "riot" at all. See my earlier post they tried to stop him.

**EDIT**
Oh and here is how some extremists from Israel raise there kids to do:

Palestinians capture violence of Israeli occupation on video

There are extremists on both side who are teaching there children to hate and to ensure violence will continue.

Of course we don't know how the child murdered was raised, so what is shown in Palestinians television doesn't really matter, as we can't possibly know if the child watched such programs.
**END EDIT**

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

third, people in Ireland sem to have this weird idea that Ireland and palestinians have a joint cause if you look thru history you will find nothing that brings these two sides together quite the opposite Israel and Ireland have an awful lot in common from being oppressed to fighting the british for thier homeland, we both did it the same way why did Ireland turn against Israel ??

How does people from Europe going to a foreign country to take over and ethnically cleanse the people living there, some how become fighting the British empire? The Palestinians were the majority until enough of them were kicked out.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

fourth. Terrorism is acceptable to a lot of twisted minds who see it as a freedom fighters struggle ffs look past your narrow mind was 9/11 justified was the bulldozer attack in Yerushalim justified???

No one has justified terrorism in this thread. This is a ridiculous straw man.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

and the argument of they have no other way to fight is just pathetic absoulutly pathetic,

Has anyone made this argument here? Has anyone tried to justify terrorism? I have yet to see anyone do so in this thread.

wes

Sand wrote: »

I dont know the situation in which the boy possibly died, but just to confirm, there is an actual body this time and there was an autopsy to confirm he was killed by an IDF bullet?

The IDF were the only ones firing and there is no evidence that anyone else was firing.

Sand wrote: »

It brings great results - dead kids. Then you can trumpet to the world "Look at the demonic israelis!!!! Look at these monsters!!!!!"

Great propaganda for the cause.

Main stream news agencies are now Palestinian propaganda? How very odd.

Anyway, why bother with propaganda. Israel are more than capable of making themselves look bad.

Sand wrote: »

Oh and for anyone who feels appalled that I consider the Palestinians might be so cold and calculating regarding the lives of their own children [ we already know they will happily murder Israeli children]....

We have seen the IDF will murder Palestinian children.

Sand wrote: »

14 year old suicide bomber.....not shot by the IDF

Of course this child was in Palestine and not in Israel. The Israel soldiers were in Palestine, violating international law to steal land and then shot a child.

The parents tried to stop the child btw. They did not send the child out with a suicide belt. I fail to see how the 2 situations are similar at all.

Sand wrote: »

Oh, and this girl isnt a child technically, but was clearly someone taken advantage of. Again, also not shot by the IDF even when she tried twice to detonate her suicide belt.

Again the child who was murdered was in Palestine and the Israel troops were the one stealing land and were clearly the aggressors. The child did not have a suicide belt at all, so I fail to see how this is relevant or similar to the situation at hand.

Manic Moran

Again the child who was murdered was in Palestine and the Israel troops were the one stealing land and were clearly the aggressors.

Look, if you want to view those who resist the Israelis as freedom fighters, independence fighters or whatever, then that's fair enough. However, if you are going to accept the use of violence for the cause, you must also accept that it brings its drawbacks. It's not exactly a spectator event (Unless you intend it to be, see propoganda argument), I strongly doubt that any kids wandered along into the GPO for the purposes of their entertainment. Quite simply, being around those who attack soldiers (Be they attacking justifiably or not) is fundamentally dangerous, it doesn't matter what age you are.

That's my gripe with this thread. It was started in order to take advantage of the emotional effect that a ten-year-old normally gives. There's no indication in any report as yet that he was deliberately targetted, that the Israelis went looking for ten-year-old kids to brutally murder: It may have been a stray round. So far, the only facts we have are that he went along to a potentially dangerous situation, and he got shot for his trouble. Should he have been shot? I doubt it. Does that mean the stupidity of his being there in the first place wasn't really stupid? No.

NTM

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

Look, if you want to view those who resist the Israelis as freedom fighters, independence fighters or whatever, then that's fair enough. However, if you are going to accept the use of violence for the cause, you must also accept that it brings its drawbacks. It's not exactly a spectator event (Unless you intend it to be, see propoganda argument), I strongly doubt that any kids wandered along into the GPO for the purposes of their entertainment. Quite simply, being around those who attack soldiers (Be they attacking justifiably or not) is fundamentally dangerous, it doesn't matter what age you are.

Firing into a crowd of civilians make those who did the firing responsible for there deaths. They fired live rounds into a crowd. This is murder pure and simple.

Also, just to add I don't think any violence is a good idea at all for the Palestinians. Even when its soley directed against the IDF (which is the only time resistance is legitimate when directed against military targets, anyone who target civilians are murderers and terrorists regardless of there cause, race etc). Still reading about this instance, make the IDF look really bad imho. We are not talking about armed gun men taking on the IDF here. We are talking about protesters some of whom were violent and the IDF as per the article had the correct equipment to minimize any injury to civilians (tear gas and rubber bullets), but chose instead to fire lives rounds at people.

Here from the article in the op:

Salah Al Khawaja, a member of Nilin’s Committee Against the Wall, said Israeli troops fired live rounds at a group of protesters who ran into Nilin after security forces dispersed demonstrators using rubber-coated bullets.

“Protesters arrived at the wall’s construction site outside the village and the soldiers started to open fire with rubber bullets and tear gas. This pushed the protesters back into the village where the boy was hit by a live bullet in his chest,” he said.

The protesters were pushed back into the village and then they fired live rounds.

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's my gripe with this thread. It was started in order to take advantage of the emotional effect that a ten-year-old normally gives. There's no indication in any report as yet that he was deliberately targetted, that the Israelis went looking for ten-year-old kids to brutally murder: It may have been a stray round. So far, the only facts we have are that he went along to a potentially dangerous situation, and he got shot for his trouble. Should he have been shot? I doubt it. Does that mean the stupidity of his being there in the first place wasn't really stupid? No.

NTM

Again, those who fired live rounds into a crowd are responsible for any deaths that occur. They had other options they could have used, but decided to use live rounds instead.

This was also done in the context of a aggressive illegal land grab, which make matter look for worse for Israel. The cause of this whole mess is Israel building a wall they could easily build on there own land for security.

Zulu

Manic Moran wrote: »

Look, if you want to view those who...

Look, if you want to defend the actions of someone who shot dead a child, or if you think it's somehow excusable, that says more about you than anyone else.

Bubs101

wes wrote: »

Firing into a crowd of civilians make those who did the firing responsible for there deaths. They fired live rounds into a crowd. This is murder pure and simple.

Not really that simple though. From the sounds of it the crowd were attacking the soldiers. Also, killing as part of a military force under orders isn't murder at all.

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

Not really that simple though. From the sounds of it the crowd were attacking the soldiers. Also, killing as part of a military force under orders isn't murder at all.

The crowd were fleeing into the village when they fired live rounds, its in the article. The IDF has capabilities to disperse the crowd, using non-lethal means and did so and the crowd went back to there village. The boy was as per the article shot in the village.

From the article in the op again:

“Protesters arrived at the wall’s construction site outside the village and the soldiers started to open fire with rubber bullets and tear gas. This pushed the protesters back into the village where the boy was hit by a live bullet in his chest,” he said.

Explain to me how shooting fleeing protesters, and killing one of them isn't murder? It looks like murder to me.

Also, I can't quite believe your using military orders as an excuse for the murder of a child. You can murder someone under military orders, this is well established under international law, last I checked.

dlofnep

Bubs101 wrote: »

Not really that simple though. From the sounds of it the crowd were attacking the soldiers. Also, killing as part of a military force under orders isn't murder at all.

So they were ordered to shoot a 9 year old child in the chest?

Bubs101

It doesn't say that they targeted him anywhere. I'm pretty sure that no matter how evil the Israeli's are portrayed in the media one of them isn't going to shoot a kid in the chest for no reason whatsoever on purpose. It was in all likely hood either an accident or a bulley meant for somebody else

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

It doesn't say that they targeted him anywhere. I'm pretty sure that no matter how evil the Israeli's are portrayed in the media one of them isn't going to shoot a kid in the chest for no reason whatsoever on purpose. It was in all likely hood either an accident or a bulley meant for somebody else

The protesters were pushed back to the village by tear gas and rubber bullets and then they used live rounds. Firing live rounds into a crowd that was getting the hell out of the place after the IDF used tear gas etc is murder. The protesters at this point were not threat to the IDF soldiers, so to use live rounds at his point was going to result in civilian deaths.

Bubs101

wes wrote: »

The protesters at this point were not threat to the IDF soldiers, so to use live rounds at his point was going to result in civilian deaths.

Given their history Palestinian protestors are always a threat. The Israelis are well versed in their tactics and may have gotten suspicious. We don't know what happened but I think it's safe to suspect that
1. During a time of ceasefire an israeli soldier is not going to shoot a Palestinian without a reason
2. That it's unlikely he was aiming for a 9 year old child

I'm not an Israeli sympathiser, quite the opposite but people are making this out to be far more significant and evil than it was. I would be 99% sure that it was not what I would consider a murder

nacho libre

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This thread is just being used as another opportunity by the usual suspects to beat up on Israel.

Does a new thread get opened when an Israeli citizen is killed by a rocket attack?

It would be refreshing if everybody could condemn the murder of children whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. it seems in this particular thread some are more interested in deflecting blame due to their in built prejudice. Which really is disgraceful as the inference is that Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian life.

Zulu

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that no matter how evil the Israeli's are portrayed in the media one of them isn't going to shoot a kid in the chest for no reason whatsoever on purpose....

And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bulldoze through civilian houses with people in them, or shoot unarmed reporters, or call in airstrikes on civilian houses....

...oh, no. Wait. They did.

Bubs101

Zulu wrote: »

And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bulldoze through civilian houses with people in them, or shoot unarmed reporters, or call in airstrikes on civilian houses....

...oh, no. Wait. They did.

But it's a back and forth thing. They do those kind of things out of in built suspicions of attacks. If the Palestinians use civilians as weapons then civilians become a target

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

Given their history Palestinian protestors are always a threat. The Israelis are well versed in their tactics and may have gotten suspicious. We don't know what happened but I think it's safe to suspect that

What tactics? Throwing rocks? There has been an ongoing protest in Nilin and the protesters had been pushed back when they used live rounds. So it doesn't matter what they suspected, the protesters were dispersing. To fire live rounds at them at this point and kill someone is murder.

Bubs101 wrote: »

1. During a time of ceasefire an israeli soldier is not going to shoot a Palestinian without a reason

The Palestinians were not firing at them at any point. Some threw rocks, but the use of live ammunition was on people who were back in the village after being dispersed.

They IDF were not returning fire from anyone and shot at people who were going back to the village.

Bubs101 wrote: »

2. That it's unlikely he was aiming for a 9 year old child

So what? They fired into a crowd of fleeing protesters and killed a child, that is murder.

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm not an Israeli sympathiser, quite the opposite but people are making this out to be far more significant and evil than it was. I would be 99% sure that it was not what I would consider a murder

Firing live ammunition into a crowd of protesters who were dispersing and killing someone is murder. There was no need to use live ammunition against a dispersing crowd. Especially when they had non-lethal means at there disposal and those were working as the protesters were dispersing.

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

But it's a back and forth thing. They do those kind of things out of in built suspicions of attacks. If the Palestinians use civilians as weapons then civilians become a target

Sorry, but murdering civilians is wrong and targeting them when there dispersing is even worse. They were dispersing, when the IDF fired. What threat could the pose at this point?

In fact Hamas use the same excuse, that Israel trains most of there citizens as soldiers, so that make them all targets, which is an excuse for murder pure and simple.

Zulu

Bubs101 wrote: »

But it's a back and forth thing. They do those kind of things out of in built suspicions of attacks. If the Palestinians use civilians as weapons then civilians become a target

OK you are right. It's ok to shoot unarmed children dead. My bad. :rolleyes:

Bubs101

wes wrote: »

Sorry, but murdering civilians is wrong and targeting them when there dispersing is even worse.

In fact Hamas use the same excuse, that Israel trains most of there citizens as soldiers, so that make them all targets, which is an excuse for murder pure and simple.

I'm not excusing any murder. Personally speaking, I don't think that it's fair to label a soldier who kills somebody by accident while on duty a murderer. They're different things. Neither side is right in the global scale of things but to their people they are. The fact is that Hamas does use the disguise of the civilian to kill Israeli's. Israel has to do something to try and stop it but it's a really difficult situation to which their is no solution. If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

The Saint

Just for some perspective:

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories : 948
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces in Isreal : 3

Total: 951



Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories : 39
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in Isreal : 84

Total: 123

Bubs101 wrote: »

If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

I think you're getting the balance of deaths mixed up:

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces : 4,815

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians: 723

nacho libre

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm not excusing any murder. Personally speaking, I don't think that it's fair to label a soldier who kills somebody by accident while on duty a murderer. They're different things. Neither side is right in the global scale of things but to their people they are. The fact is that Hamas does use the disguise of the civilian to kill Israeli's. Israel has to do something to try and stop it but it's a really difficult situation to which their is no solution. If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

I think it is fair to label him/her a murderer when he/she fires live ammo at a crowd that is dispering.

Bubs101

nacho libre wrote: »

I think it is fair to label him/her a murderer when he/she fires live ammo at a crowd that is dispering.

If he was ordered to do so?

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm not excusing any murder. Personally speaking, I don't think that it's fair to label a soldier who kills somebody by accident while on duty a murderer. They're different things.

When they murder a child it is fair. The crowd were dispersing and they used live rounds. They had capability to disperse the crowd with tear gas and rubber bullets and chose to use live rounds, even after the non-lethal means were working to disperse the crowd.

Here is another example of IDF brutality in the Nilin:
Story behind the shot protester and the teen who caught it on film

This is the kind of thing that the IDF does and firing on a dispersing group of protesters with live round killing a child is not an accident, its murder imho.

Bubs101 wrote: »

Neither side is right in the global scale of things but to their people they are. The fact is that Hamas does use the disguise of the civilian to kill Israeli's. Israel has to do something to try and stop it but it's a really difficult situation to which their is no solution.

This is in the West Bank btw and the people were dispersing and going back to the village when they were fired upon and were no threat to the soldiers, who were incidentally the aggressors, who were in the process of stealing Palestinian land and violating international law. No Israeli civilians were in danger (as the IDF were in Palestine) in this situation and the IDF were hardly in danger from a dispersing group of protesters.

Bubs101 wrote: »

If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

Complete nonsense. The IDF soldiers were in Palestine, building a wall on Palestinian land, basically stealing more Palestinian land. The wall would work just fine being built on there own land. They shot dispersing protesters. There is no excuse for this. They were not defending themselves, they were engaged in the aggressive theft of Palestinian land. These people were in there own nation protesting a foreign force building a wall to steal there land and were fired with live rounds when they were dispersing. This is murder pure and simple.

The child killed was going back to his village and not approaching soldiers, Israeli civilians were not in danger as this was in Palestine. At this point you are making excuses are engaged in argument that doesn't represent this particular situation at all.

BlaasForRafa

nacho libre wrote: »

It would be refreshing if everybody could condemn the murder of children whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. it seems in this particular thread some are more interested in deflecting blame due to their in built prejudice. Which really is disgraceful as the inference is that Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian life.

Did I say that I didn't condemn it?

What I'm sick of is people jumping on the anti-israeli bandwagon who seem to care more about palestinian lives than about israeli lives. I didn't see anyone condemn the killing of an israeli pensioner killed last month by a rocket attack (which the palestinians celebrated by giving out sweets to kids....I don't see israelis going out onto the streets celebrating when a palestinian is killed)

I didn't see anyone here condemning the killers of an israeli worker in a paint factory killed 2 months ago by a palestinian mortar bomb....what did he do to offend the palestinians?

The death of a child is terrible but the way the palestinian leadership use this type of thing for propoganda purposes is sickening too....and even worse judging by this thread it works too.

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

If he was ordered to do so?

Orders do not excuse murder of civilians. This is well established under international law. The fact you are trying to present this as a defense is just astonishing.

Bubs101

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What I'm sick of is people jumping on the anti-israeli bandwagon who seem to care more about palestinian lives than about israeli lives. I didn't see anyone condemn the killing of an israeli pensioner killed last month by a rocket attack (which the palestinians celebrated by giving out sweets to kids....I don't see israelis going out onto the streets celebrating when a palestinian is killed)

+1

wes wrote: »

Orders do not excuse murder of civilians. This is well established under international law. The fact you are trying to present this as a defense is just astonishing.

Perhaps you can show me where then. Anyway, I said earlier that I wasn't defending their actions but most of you here are being far too single minded.

Just out of interest, why do you think the soldier shot?

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Did I say that I didn't condemn it?
What I'm sick of is people jumping on the anti-israeli bandwagon who seem to care more about palestinian lives than about israeli lives. I didn't see anyone condemn the killing of an israeli pensioner killed last month by a rocket attack (which the palestinians celebrated by giving out sweets to kids....I don't see israelis going out onto the streets celebrating when a palestinian is killed)

Did you post a thread on it? I am sure people would have condemned such a terrible murder. In fact I will condemn this terrible murder right now.

However, I will point out people are trying to blame the childs parents etc for what happened in this thread.

Also Israel celebrates there independence day every year, which I might add is also a celebration of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I didn't see anyone here condemning the killers of an israeli worker in a paint factory killed 2 months ago by a palestinian mortar bomb....what did he do to offend the palestinians?

Well I will condemn it right there and now, it is a terrible murder. However, I did not see a thread on it and I would have condemned it if is existed.

Also btw, just because someone did not start a thread does not mean people don't condemn it. There are plenty of Palestinian deaths that no one starts a thread about and that doesn't mean people don't condemn it either. There are thread started on Palestinian violence here as well, so to pretend that such threads have never existed and to accuse posters of not condemning Palestinian violence is a straw man, as many have done so in other threads.

There are plenty of threads on the Israel/Palestine conflict on this board and plenty of posters have condemn violence against Israeli civilians.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The death of a child is terrible but the way the palestinian leadership use this type of thing for propoganda purposes is sickening too....and even worse judging by this thread it works too.

Have they used this for propaganda at all? I have only seen news reports from Western web sites and news papers.

Btw, what propaganda from the Palestinian leadership has shown up on this thread, are Western news papers now part of Palestinian propaganda?

Are Israeli deaths reported by western news agencies propaganda from the Israeli leadership?