Minister abandons biofuel target as doubts grow about benefits

JHMEG

I didn't really know there were food shortages in Wexford and Cork, the two sources of biofuels in this country. Maybe we're running short on strawberries and queens?

Joking aside, as reported in the Irish Times, the future is not looking too good for biofuels in this country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0726/1217013248454.html

(It would also appear that the Greens believe everything they see on TV)

colm_mcm

It should be noted that the plan Eamon Ryan is abandoning wasn't his to start with.

ninty9er

I wouldn't worry about it. I've already informed a recently promoted minister of state that Ireland's bio-fuel supply is by and large waste product derived and poses no threat to food.

There should be some sort of press release due on it soon.

JHMEG

ninty9er wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about it. I've already informed a recently promoted minister of state that Ireland's bio-fuel supply is by and large waste product derived and poses no threat to food.

There should be some sort of press release due on it soon.

While you're at it would you tell them that ESB and Bord Gash are making hugely excessive profits. I mean €440 million profit for ESB yet they need to put up prices by 17.5%??!? Yes, that's FOUR HUNDRED and FORTY MILLION EUROS! IIRC, Bord Gash made €170 million yet are putting up prices by 20%.

GoneShootin

Peraps its more down the energy regulator that seems to allow every increase requested.

JHMEG

GoneShootin wrote: »

Peraps its more down the energy regulator that seems to allow every increase requested.

I emailed the regulator in May when it was rumoured that gas was going to go up by 17-19%. A Jennifer Kinghorne replied and said

Please be advised that although Bord Gais have submitted an application
to increase their prices, the Commission for Energy Regulation have not
accepted or declined this application as yet. The CER is currently
investigating this issue as there are a number of factors to consider.

Please note, that all comments, concerns or opinions we have received
have been forwarded to the relevant department who are involved in the
decision making process.


among other things. Next think I read the regulator gave them 20%. There'll be a tribunal over this yet...

GoneShootin

JHMEG wrote: »

There'll be a tribunal over this yet...

Another waste of money....

ninty9er

ESBs profits go to good use modernising the electricity network, however some ESB companies must be sold due to EU competition regs, so the profits mightn't last that long. With a turnover the size of ESB, €440m isn't a whole lot, and a portion of it is being offset to have the increase at 17% rather than 30%.

Another dam on the Shannon wouldn't go astray imo

What about all the jobs lost in Carlow and Cork with the sugar plants?
What about the giving out the farmers made about losing business when that happened?
What about all the land left fallow paid for by the EU?
What about something renewable?

ninty9er

Deleted User wrote: »

What about all the jobs lost in Carlow and Cork with the sugar plants?

Just in case you think I'm ignoring you...I'm not. This is the motors forum and I've previously been banned for going on rants at drivel like that, so I'm not going to bother this time.

JHMEG

JHMEG wrote: »

I didn't really know there were food shortages in Wexford and Cork, the two sources of biofuels in this country. Maybe we're running short on strawberries and queens?

Joking aside, as reported in the Irish Times, the future is not looking too good for biofuels in this country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0726/1217013248454.html

(It would also appear that the Greens believe everything they see on TV)

from the article:

They have been blamed for steep rises in global food prices

We can mass produce food only because of fossil fuels. We need alternatives or food will go up in price ANYWAY because of the rise in the cost of fossil fuels. another way of looking at it is renewable fuels can, with time, level food and fuel prices.

ninty9er

Deleted User wrote: »

from the article:



We can mass produce food only because of fossil fuels. We need alternatives or food will go up in price ANYWAY because of the rise in the cost of fossil fuels. another way of looking at it is renewable fuels can, with time, level food and fuel prices.

Obviously you believe everything you read too. The Carbery group is Ireland's largest producer of E85, and supplier of Maxol. The produce E85 from whey, which is a waste product from milk production. (i.e. actually using something that would not otherwise be used to curb C02 emissions)

JHMEG

ninty9er wrote: »

ESBs profits go to good use modernising the electricity network,

ESB's profits are way higher than they should be as a semi state. The only reason they're so high is because the govt want to make the ESB as attractive as possible to a potential buyer, when the time comes.

ninty9er

JHMEG wrote: »

ESB's profits are way higher than they should be as a semi state. The only reason they're so high is because the govt want to make the ESB as attractive as possible to a potential buyer, when the time comes.

And €3bn long term debt is so attractive?

Anyhow...ESB has nothing to do with this thread.

JHMEG

ninty9er wrote: »

And €3bn long term debt is so attractive?

Anyhow...ESB has nothing to do with this thread.

Very few highly profitable companies don't have debts, that's the way business works. At the profit levels the ESB are making the debt could be cleared in a few years anyway.

You're right tho, ESB has nothing directly to do with motors.

Del2005

JHMEG wrote: »

You're right tho, ESB has nothing directly to do with motors.

It soon will.

derry

I have very strong suspisions that big fat brown envelopes that want to kill of renewabal sources are at work

Ethanol works very welll in Brazil a so called backward country and yet they try to say it wont work here

This fits that mold perfectly

Other threads I have done with similar theme and then the pattern is clearer

How oil companies will stop E85 and bio fuels
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055369646

similar threads
Real life Expermenting with E85 mixxes
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57248225#post57248225


The plot to make Ireland go nuclear is well advanced
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055364915

other similar threads on E85 info on real life convertions to E85
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055276544

limerick guy who fitted kit to his car cost ~600 euros
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055276544

Derry

ongarite

Ethanol works well in those countries becuase have a massive corn crop with nothing else to do with it. Same in the USA, the corn lobby was very strong in getting ethanol production up and running.

Biofuels can never replace petrol/diesel. We would have to cover the entire surface of this planet with suitable crops to fuel our all the cars for a year and then we would all be dead from starvation.

ninty9er

ongarite wrote: »

Biofuels can never replace petrol/diesel. We would have to cover the entire surface of this planet with suitable crops to fuel our all the cars for a year and then we would all be dead from starvation.

I'd argue that point. Biofuels will never be able to sustainably replace oil. There's a vast difference between oil and transport fuel.

Home heat and electricity can and should be generated from sources other than biofuel, leaving biofuel to fill the void until safe and sustainable fuel cell technology can be mass produced.

galwaytt

One of the side-effects of the new M6 etc, as that you get a view of the countryside you haven't, previously. Included in this view are huge tracts of farmland............lying idle. Why, I don't know -whether EU subsidised or not - but the fact is, it is nothing short of criminal to have good land, lying idle....merely 'braisteach' farms..........

So with this in mind.......

ongarite wrote: »

....... We would have to cover the entire surface of this planet with suitable crops to fuel our all the cars for a year and then we would all be dead from starvation.

There is no justification for idle land, whether for food or fuel. It brings product (food), fuel (Ewhatever), employment (to grow, harvest, both), savings to the economy (in replacement of fuel imported....), tax revenue to the Exchequer. So whether you like it or not, and whether is sates a large or small part of our fuel bill, we should be doing it.

VH

galwaytt wrote: »

One of the side-effects of the new M6 etc, as that you get a view of the countryside you haven't, previously. Included in this view are huge tracts of farmland............lying idle. Why, I don't know -whether EU subsidised or not - but the fact is, it is nothing short of criminal to have good land, lying idle....merely 'braisteach' farms..........

So with this in mind.......


There is no justification for idle land, whether for food or fuel. It brings product (food), fuel (Ewhatever), employment (to grow, harvest, both), savings to the economy (in replacement of fuel imported....), tax revenue to the Exchequer. So whether you like it or not, and whether is sates a large or small part of our fuel bill, we should be doing it.

Isnt the EU paying Irish farmers not to farm?

ninty9er

VH wrote: »

Isnt the EU paying Irish farmers not to farm?

Farming policy isn't my forte; but I imagine the EU is paying Irish farmers not to farm certain things (i.e dairy)

towel401

GoneShootin wrote: »

Another waste of money....

yup. they'll give the 440m to lawyers instead

Vast amounts of oil and gas are used as raw materials and energy in the manufacture of fertilisers and pesticides, and as cheap and readily available energy at all stages of food production; from planting, irrigation, feeding and harvesting, through to processing, distribution and packaging. In addition, fossil fuels are essential in the construction and the repair of equipment and infrastructure needed to facilitate this industry, including farm machinery, processing facilities, storage, ships, trucks and roads. The industrial food supply system is one of the biggest consumers of fossil fuels and one of the greatest producers of greenhouse gasses.

http://www.feasta.org/events/foodconf/food_conference.htm

Farming fuel causes starvation? How about farming for alcoholic drinks does the same? Time to snap out of it, the longer they leave it to change to biofuels the harder the switch will be.

VH

ninty9er wrote: »

Farming policy isn't my forte; but I imagine the EU is paying Irish farmers not to farm certain things (i.e dairy)

no - its to do with land - they get paid not to farm some or all of their land - i know two farmers getting paid under this scheme

ninty9er

VH wrote: »

no - its to do with land - they get paid not to farm some or all of their land - i know two farmers getting paid under this scheme

Yes they're getting paid not to farm, to curb supply/excess.

Biofuels aren't in excess within Europe, in fact most of Europe's biofuel comes from South America; mainly Brazil.

VH

yes - but the point is they're paid not to farm their land - this in part explains why land is lying idle and not producing things like biofuel.

i dont know if the scheme has changed recently but one lad i know was being paid not to farm *any* of his land

ART6

derry wrote: »

Ethanol works very welll in Brazil a so called backward country and yet they try to say it wont work here

They are not part of the EU, so they can make sensible decisions and carry them out. The EU wants every member state to increase their use of biofuels, but pays farmers not to grow anything under the Set Aside policy, and then prohibits selection of sources for imports under its competition policy. That suggests to me that some countries that should be growing food rather than biofuels are encouraged to do the latter. Then, under various waste directives a material that has been deliberately discarded remains a waste, and technically, if burned, becomes subject to the highly restrictive Waste Incineration Directive. It's typical of the joined up thinking of the EU Commission.

The other argument about who should be growing biofuels is, perhaps, that some very poor countries can't grow enough food to feed their people due to poor land, but might be able to grow biofuel crops that they can then sell for the money to buy food.

Either way, since to PC brigade has now decided that biofuels are bad, we aren't going to see a major availability of cheaper alternatives to petrol or diesel for a long time yet. I suspect that as usual the policy will be let's wait until it's too late and then announce a few irrelevant initiatives.

derry

ART6 wrote: »

They are not part of the EU, so they can make sensible decisions and carry them out. The EU wants every member state to increase their use of biofuels, but pays farmers not to grow anything under the Set Aside policy, and then prohibits selection of sources for imports under its competition policy. That suggests to me that some countries that should be growing food rather than biofuels are encouraged to do the latter. Then, under various waste directives a material that has been deliberately discarded remains a waste, and technically, if burned, becomes subject to the highly restrictive Waste Incineration Directive. It's typical of the joined up thinking of the EU Commission.

The other argument about who should be growing biofuels is, perhaps, that some very poor countries can't grow enough food to feed their people due to poor land, but might be able to grow biofuel crops that they can then sell for the money to buy food.

Either way, since to PC brigade has now decided that biofuels are bad, we aren't going to see a major availability of cheaper alternatives to petrol or diesel for a long time yet. I suspect that as usual the policy will be let's wait until it's too late and then announce a few irrelevant initiatives.

That and more brown MANA spread around the EU chambers and boy do french love Brown MANA

Brazil produces all its Bio ethanol from only 2% of its land

If EU is forced to buy its Ethanol from Brazil as they make it impossible for EU farmers to produce Etahanol and Bio fuels we can easily see Brazil happy to take up the slack knocking down all it jungle to produce Ethanol

So we will get a warped story from the OIL companies saying Bio fuel ( which is cheaper than oil is bad as it competes with them) is bad as it kiles jungle bunnies or some such warped logic

Look Ireland has so much land doing nothing and so many farmers scratching themselfs with no work and on the handouts that its a no brainer we should produce our own fuels from Sugar beet and rape seeds oil and other bio solutions

We are going to hammered and fined for exceeding our CO2 emmisions to a few billions
I would rather Ireland picked up fines for producing Bio fuels to ensure that Ireland has a solution to reducng CO2 targets and mean we have a solution if the oil and gas got chopped off from a middle east war like maybe Iran or EU fall out with the Russians and they cut the pipe line

If there is a fuel shortage the EU will be slow to give us anything extra a sthey will have Germans sitting in apartments in -20 degrees in the winter and all we risk is 5 degrees of cold so we cant give ireland any fuel non to spare piss off

Then we will see how the PC will react oh well they are so cold in central EU we must all grin and bear it

PC should be the first ones against the wall ..................

Try living a Irish winter with no heat ( I do but then I am tight SOB practising the art of freezing and not giving those OIL and gas outfits a penny I don't have to as me I am not the save the planet green type I am save the money blue with cold type ) and then you will be livid that we are so vunerable to oil gas shortages when we don't have to be

Its a oil and gas companies EU solution to make the poor even poorer and the rich oil and gas companies even richer:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Derry

maidhc

VH wrote: »

yes - but the point is they're paid not to farm their land - this in part explains why land is lying idle and not producing things like biofuel.

i dont know if the scheme has changed recently but one lad i know was being paid not to farm *any* of his land

Set aside was abolished under the fishler reforms.

Eitherway, I don't understand the logic of "food getting expensive", food is incredibly cheap at the farm gate. It just gets expensive by the time in reaches the supermarket shelves. It strikes me the issue does not lie with land use.

I speak as someone with a 120 acre farm that is only barely worth farming as profitibility is so low. It is all incredibly fertile land that could easily produce biofuels was there a profitible market, but instead is only turning a very very small profit from beef farming.

ninty9er

maidhc wrote: »

Set aside was abolished under the fishler reforms.

Eitherway, I don't understand the logic of "food getting expensive", food is incredibly cheap at the farm gate. It just gets expensive by the time in reaches the supermarket shelves. It strikes me the issue does not lie with land use.

I speak as someone with a 120 acre farm that is only barely worth farming as profitibility is so low. It is all incredibly fertile land that could easily produce biofuels was there a profitible market, but instead is only turning a very very small profit from beef farming.

Miscanthus is what you want...you could even get a full time job on the side. You'll need to talk to your friendly local bank manager for the initial investment though.

maidhc

ninty9er wrote: »

Miscanthus is what you want...you could even get a full time job on the side. You'll need to talk to your friendly local bank manager for the initial investment though.

I do have a full time job already! Miscanthus was investigated, but it is currently being used for bedding horses, and given the huge capital investment is just too uncertain to invest in.

ninty9er

maidhc wrote: »

I do have a full time job already! Miscanthus was investigated, but it is currently being used for bedding horses, and given the huge capital investment is just too uncertain to invest in.

I have the number of a guy farming it. PM if you're still interested in looking into it.

unkel

ongarite wrote: »

Biofuels can never replace petrol/diesel. We would have to cover the entire surface of this planet with suitable crops to fuel our all the cars for a year and then we would all be dead from starvation.

Not what I've read in relation to this country. I've no quote / link but iirc 10% of current farmland used for biofuels would be enough to cover all our transport fuel needs

Matt Simis

unkel wrote: »

Not what I've read in relation to this country. I've no quote / link but iirc 10% of current farmland used for biofuels would be enough to cover all our transport fuel needs

This is also screwed if and when we switch to Algae based biofuels. Either way, the whole surface of the planet is way, way off. With conspiracy hats on, it could be suggested that line of thought was originally started by the Oil industry.

VH

Matt Simis wrote: »

With conspiracy hats on, it could be suggested that line of thought was originally started by the Oil industry.

very true

derry

VH wrote: »

very true

It seems to be a no brainer
If you sell oil it not interesting to allow another fuel source be it coal or Bio fuels take some of your market

Best to fight back and fight back dirty

some links

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055369646
oil companies will try to suppress bio fuel solutions

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055364915
nuclear power will try to replace bio fuels


Derry

derry

maidhc wrote: »

Set aside was abolished under the fishler reforms.

Eitherway, I don't understand the logic of "food getting expensive", food is incredibly cheap at the farm gate. It just gets expensive by the time in reaches the supermarket shelves. It strikes me the issue does not lie with land use.

I speak as someone with a 120 acre farm that is only barely worth farming as profitibility is so low. It is all incredibly fertile land that could easily produce biofuels was there a profitible market, but instead is only turning a very very small profit from beef farming.

Can you find eneogh other farmers through farm net or similar solutions that can state what amount of bio fuel acrege that can be produced
That preferably without impacting present food farming and then start to campain for the right to allowed to save ROI from the Oil enslavement that controls this regime that is in power and wants to keep us enslaved

It seems that 30% of irish food producing land is out of production paid for from EU so as to keep cheap food imports coming intoROIand the rest of the EU and ensure OIL enslaves us

Derry

ART6

Depending on who you listen to, oil will run out in twenty years, or next week, or not for millennia. But given current understanding oil results from millions of years of organic matter being subjected to high pressures and temperatures in the crust of the planet, but only in certain places many of which are inaccessible with present technology. Coal is similarly created, although there is more of it. Both release carbon dioxide that was locked in millions of years ago into the atmosphere now. Whatever the availability estimates both oil and coal must run out sometime, and if man made carbon dioxide is creating global warming (which I personally doubt), then both should stop being burned now. So there is every reason to develop biofuels, since at least they are renewable and carbon neutral. If the oil industry doesn't approve, tough chucks. Some time in the future there won't be an oil industry.

Ah, but growing crops for biofuels (say the activists) deprives people of food in underdeveloped countries. I have a problem understanding how growing biofuels in Ireland is going to cause starvation in Ethiopia, but then I am not a politician or a rope sandaled environmentalist. If the people of Ethiopia decide to grow biofuels instead of food and then starve, then what the merry hell are we supposed to do about it? If they want to sell biofuel crops to raise the money to buy food, fine. If it doesn't work like that for them, then it's for them to adapt as every human on the bloody planet has to do at some time. If they live in land that can't grow food or biofuels, then go somewhere else as people have been doing for thousands of years.

So, in summary, it seems to me that we are being told: Grow biofuels to save the planet, don't grow biofuels to save the starving, stop burning oil and coal to save the planet but don't exploit any other fuel in case someone starves as a result. I don't know about the rest of ye, but I have a cave marked out, in a place far removed from politicians and rampant environmentalists, and when the crunch come there I will live in harmony with nature:D

derry

ART6 wrote: »

If the people of Ethiopia decide to grow biofuels instead of food and then starve, then what the merry hell are we supposed to do about it? If they want to sell biofuel crops to raise the money to buy food, fine. If it doesn't work like that for them, then it's for them to adapt as every human on the bloody planet has to do at some time. If they live in land that can't grow food or biofuels, then go somewhere else as people have been doing for thousands of years.

No sweat I don't go with the oil is running out any time before 100 years
I don't buy the CO2 story
I am only interested in that ROI is enslaved to oil from other parts of the world when we can have the same replacement fuels grown here and keep the money and work in ROI anmd run the serpant oil companies out2Sea Period


But unfortunaly the Countries like Ethiopia are in the grips of these evil multi national companies
Ethiopia is huge in size easily 30 times bigger than ROI
Big chunks of it several times larger than ROI are full for water and fertile soils and can grwo most anything
However the Ethiopians joe soaps cant have that land as the elite owns it and work it for cash crops
Ethiopian are often scraping a living in the desert regions that the regime has banished them off to
The Ethiopians cant leave the region as EU and USA whatever wont let them come here
When you check most countries like Ethiopia you find a similar story meaning that fodd crops or fuel bio crops both starve the local populations

I cant figure the rest of the world accept that ROI has plenty of excess land and can do fuel bio crops and have no effect on food prices and make ROI at least 50% of all its fuel needs maybe even 100% all at prices similar or probably cheaper than oil products
I cant say that will work in the UK or Africa or somewhere else

Derry