Man escapes jail term over attack on firefighter

Fyr.Fytr

Man escapes jail term over attack on firefighter

Friday, 25 July 2008

A Dublin man who threw a bottle at a firefighter on his way to an emergency, causing him severe facial injuries, has escaped a prison sentence.


Twenty-two-year-old Darren Lindsay, of Spencer Dock, Ringsend, has been handed down a four-year suspended sentence and will give the victim, Jonathan Forbes, €15,000.

Mr Lindsay was standing on the street in Fairview in Dublin, which was busy because of a Robbie Williams concert in June 2006, when he threw an unopened beer bottle through the window of a Dublin Fire Brigade vehicle which was on its way to a fire in Clontarf.

The bottle hit firefighter Jonathan Forbes in the face, causing him lacerations requiring 35 stitches, a chipped bone and severe bruising.

Lindsay was identified through CCTV footage and arrested.

He pleaded guilty to assaulting Mr Forbes and causing him harm.

Today, Judge Desmond Hogan handed down a four-year term, suspending all of it on condition that Linsday pay €15,000 as a token of his remorse to Mr Forbes, that he keep the peace for five years and carry out 240 hours of community service.

He will also have to undergo treatment for drug and alcohol abuse.

Afterwards, Mr Forbes said he was glad it was over and he could now move on with his career.

He said he respected the decision of the court and hopes it will act as a deterrent to future assaults on fire personnel.

Fyr.Fytr

Judicial system lets us down again, no justic for jonny at all.

Steve

Have I missed something here -

Where is the scumbag going to get the €15K from? How long does he have to pay up?

Fyr.Fytr

No idea, he originally offered before being found guilty but jonny refused to accecpt it, but the judge ruled he had to pay it

metman

I commented on what I believed would be the outcome of this case in the last thread; surprise surprise; no custodial. Why? Because there simply aren't the cell spaces for stuff like this. In a climate where police are told they should expect and accept abuse higher than that of joe public, and if assaulted on duty, its to be accepted as an occupational hazard....why would fire be viewed any differently?

You're a public servant, acting in the course of your duty = you're fair game.

Backup from courts = nil.

Old news.

Fyr.Fytr

And its not right for police/gardai eighter and not for paramedics.

Thing is i know a firefighter who raised to point about defending himself and his colleagues and was told in no uncertain terms not to or else they'd was their hands of him and he would be liable to assault charges.

Atleast police have the cs, asp and cuff option, firebrigade and ambulance have nothing

metman

Lad I know from DFB told me a story about bad feeling between the DFB and the local Guards after a couple of Guards took a kicking on a halting site when both Police and DFB (ambo) had turned out to a call. The lads in the ambo apparently sat back as the squad car was attacked and the cops took a hiding. He told me that the DFB were on pains to appear impartial so as not to be targetted as they don't have the powers or training to get involved. While I understood his point of view, I told him I couldn't sit back under such circumstances (probably why I didn't join FRS).

Funnily enough when I told my old man this story (who's old-school ex-DFB) he was disgusted and said he would have got stuck in with a fire extinguisher :rolleyes:

But it illustrates the point how lads in the fire service now have it drilled into them, not to get involved and to be impartial. Don't agree with the circs above, but I can appreciate why they need to keep the scumbags on side. Over here there's estates on my ground where LFB won't attend without Police escort, and Ambulance crews wear stab vests as routine.

Fyr.Fytr

I can understand both sides. There needs to be a happy medium, all well and good being impartial but there is a line, in said circs i might have got involved becuase next time it could be me relying on the guards to give me a dig out.

Then again if they were injured etc the job wouldnt back them up, talk about rock and a hard place.

Met your oul lad proberably would have turned a full charged fire hose on them

They have their responsibility to be impartial but you dont bite the hand that feeds you, one day you will need the guards when your being attacked, need an escort or need them to oversee you effecting and entry to a premisis.

And the guards should understand the dfb or hse arn't supposed to get involved and unlike the police must be impartial

Its the same here with Dunsink in Finglas, dfb wont go near it without the guards and some guards wont go without armed guards.


I think there needs to be more communication between both services so as no bad feeling exists

yayamark

Bollix.

Its us the good guys vs the scum, i'd be sick if our local fb stood asisde, acytually they wouldnt do it and i couldnt believe something like that would happen.

metman

yayamark wrote: »

Bollix.

Its us the good guys vs the scum, i'd be sick if our local fb stood asisde, acytually they wouldnt do it and i couldnt believe something like that would happen.

I can appreciate your incredulity, and not wishing to make you look naive or ignorant but welcome to the real world.

I've been to jobs where I've seen fire crews getting the piss taken with scumbags mucking around with the kit on their motors, or when they've been putting out fires and they've had to stand back and ask us to step in because idiots have threatened them or interfered with their work.

Firefighters (and in that I also mean paramedics) sign up to fight fires/provide an ambo service. They don't sign up to back up or perform the role of the police. Some might, the majority won't. As they're neither trained, insured, nor sanctioned to do so. I wouldn't ask them to, its not their role. In fact I'd advise them not to get involved as their role entails they sometimes are required to go into places where we would only go armed.

Paulzx

Funnily enough we're targetted a lot more on the fire appliance than when working the ambo. I've a pain in my arse being stoned by scummers when on the fire appliance but i can honestly say i've never been stoned on the ambo.

One of the biggest problems we have is with very young kids. At night, in some of the flat complexs there are 5 and 6 year old kids running around at midnight. The minute a motor appears they're like flies around sh**e.Once your back is turned they're into the lockers. They have no fear whatsoever and are well able for the verbals. I have actually heard young kids saying " you can't touch me or i'll bleedin sue ye"

Trying to get out of the place is then a disaster as they're climbing all over the motor when you try to pull off.


As regards metmans situation about the coppers in the halting site i think i'd be bailing out and waiting for a riot squad. I don't think two firemen throwing no.2 bandages is going to scare off a mob of angry travellers:D. Sorry lads your on yer own there!!!

metman

Paulzx wrote: »

Funnily enough we're targetted a lot more on the fire appliance than when working the ambo. I've a pain in my arse being stoned by scummers when on the fire appliance but i can honestly say i've never been stoned on the ambo.

One of the biggest problems we have is with very young kids. At night, in some of the flat complexs there are 5 and 6 year old kids running around at midnight. The minute a motor appears they're like flies around sh**e.Once your back is turned they're into the lockers. They have no fear whatsoever and are well able for the verbals. I have actually heard young kids saying " you can't touch me or i'll bleedin sue ye"

Trying to get out of the place is then a disaster as they're climbing all over the motor when you try to pull off.


As regards metmans situation about the coppers in the halting site i think i'd be bailing out and waiting for a riot squad. I don't think two firemen throwing no.2 bandages is going to scare off a mob of angry travellers:D. Sorry lads your on yer own there!!!

yayamark, firefighters fight fires and crew ambulances, thats what they're paid to do.

Fyr.Fytr

Paulzx wrote: »

Funnily enough we're targetted a lot more on the fire appliance than when working the ambo. I've a pain in my arse being stoned by scummers when on the fire appliance but i can honestly say i've never been stoned on the ambo.

One of the biggest problems we have is with very young kids. At night, in some of the flat complexs there are 5 and 6 year old kids running around at midnight. The minute a motor appears they're like flies around sh**e.Once your back is turned they're into the lockers. They have no fear whatsoever and are well able for the verbals. I have actually heard young kids saying " you can't touch me or i'll bleedin sue ye"

Trying to get out of the place is then a disaster as they're climbing all over the motor when you try to pull off.


As regards metmans situation about the coppers in the halting site i think i'd be bailing out and waiting for a riot squad. I don't think two firemen throwing no.2 bandages is going to scare off a mob of angry travellers:D. Sorry lads your on yer own there!!!

Yea paul i've seen the pics of D51 after an incursion into dunsink, scary pic of one house brick that missed the driver by inches!

Dont bother with the no 2's get out and start swinging the cd oxygen about lol

As for the kids thats sadly just the way society has gone, what hope have they got?

And im glad your not stoned on the ambo, pt there in Vf and you mezmirized by the ecg on the lifepack lol let alone driving stoned :P

Eru

Wish I could say Im shocked but lets be honest, Im not.

Metman,
Can believe this happens allright as I have had one or two occasions where DFB folded their arms but thankfully thats an extreme rarity. The DFB lads have gotten stuck in and given us a hand on many many occasions and vice versa. Said it before, a DFB assistance call gets the same responce as a Garda assistance request. Maybe thats just because im in the city centre and we work together a lot but its the way I like it.

Im all for a bit of friendly competition between police, army, fire, etc but the day when we cant all see that were ultimately just different sections of the same system and very alike will be a sad day in my opinion.

Paulzx

Look, lets be honest about this. The majority of firemen are not going to stand aside and watch say, a copper on his own getting battered on the side of the road. Irrespective of what management say we should do tjis is just not going to happen. Certainly not with the crew on my watch

Fyr.Fytr

Yea thought as much paul, as i said there needs to be a hapy medium, like you wont be going into a full scale riot swinging digs, but if its one or 2 guards getting their asses handed to them your going to jump in and fight their corner for them.

dfbfire/ambo

i find it hard to believe dfb crews would not give the garda a hand. ive definatly got stuck in on many occtions and the same with all my watch. doesnt matter what management says as they are at home in their beds when these thing s go on.we have a very good relationship wit the lads and ladies from our local garda station and if anybody thinks were goin to stand by and watch them getting a hiding their mad!

TheNog

Paulzx wrote: »

As regards metmans situation about the coppers in the halting site i think i'd be bailing out and waiting for a riot squad. I don't think two firemen throwing no.2 bandages is going to scare off a mob of angry travellers:D. Sorry lads your on yer own there!!!

I can understand fb and ambo do not have sufficient training to deal with violence towards them but I would hope that if I was in trouble I would get assistance from either or both.


Are fb, ambo and gardai not all trying to protect life and property?

Victor

Incident 1: Fire brigade crew respond to a bonfire. Local kids are annoyed, but move on when its put out. Gardaí show up and are stoned by the kids.

Incident 2: Garda responds to a bonfire before the fire brigade gets there. Gardaí are being attacked and the fire brigade crew intervenes. Kids move from neutral against the fire bridge to disliking the fire brigade.

Incident 3: Fire brigade crew respond to a bonfire. Fire brigade crew stoned by kids. Fire brigade crew withdraws until garda arrives. Fire brigade inextricably linked to Garda in the minds of the kids.

Incident 4: Fire brigade can't respond to ambulance call.

---

While, yes both fire brigade and Garda are on the side of good, they have different priorities and different jobs.

yayamark

dfbfire/ambo wrote: »

i find it hard to believe dfb crews would not give the garda a hand. ive definatly got stuck in on many occtions and the same with all my watch. doesnt matter what management says as they are at home in their beds when these thing s go on.we have a very good relationship wit the lads and ladies from our local garda station and if anybody thinks were goin to stand by and watch them getting a hiding their mad!

Thank you thought i was goin wrong there!

CO19

What would happen if a person who isn't a Garda or fireman etc saw a Garda or Gardai being attacked in the street a went to help them against those who are attacking them would those Gards then turn on the person trying to help them ?

CLADA

CO19 wrote: »

What would happen if a person who isn't a Garda or fireman etc saw a Garda or Gardai being attacked in the street a went to help them against those who are attacking them would those Gards then turn on the person trying to help them ?

There were so many answers to this one but I will stick with the simple one which is...."No"

CO19

Is that 'no' don't help them or no they won't give out to you for helping them

CLADA

CO19 wrote: »

Is that 'no' don't help them or no they won't give out to you for helping them

Your question was "would those gards then turn on the person trying to help them?".

The answer is No.

Can I ask why you would even think like that?

CO19

CLADA wrote: »

Can I ask why you would even think like that?

Cause I did it once a few years ago there was a Sgt out on his own and he was trying to move a group of scumbags off from outside a shop they all started ganging up around him and more of the saps arrived from out of nowhere and started squaring up to the Sgt it started to turn violent they were pushin him etc he was tryin to get to his radio while fending off these pricks he couldnt get to it proper I went over and helped him push the lads off to give him space to get to his radio,when he did make the call for back up he told me to get the F**K away who did I think I was,told me that I could have been arrested for interfering with a Garda in the course of his duties.

CLADA

CO19 wrote: »

Cause I did it once a few years ago there was a Sgt out on his own and he was trying to move a group of scumbags off from outside a shop they all started ganging up around him and more of the saps arrived from out of nowhere and started squaring up to the Sgt it started to turn violent they were pushin him etc he was tryin to get to his radio while fending off these pricks he couldnt get to it proper I went over and helped him push the lads off to give him space to get to his radio,when he did make the call for back up he told me to get the F**K away who did I think I was,told me that I could have been arrested for interfering with a Garda in the course of his duties.

Well then my answer should have been: "In general no, but there is a sgt somewhere in the country who would prefer a good hiding free from interfering passers by"

Carsinian Thau

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Man escapes jail term over attack on firefighter

Friday, 25 July 2008

This is utterly sickening.
I recall reading that this guy was drunk but that's no excuse.
I know the prisons are drastically over crowded but if scum like this were shoved into a crowded cell until they could fit no more, it would serve as a much better deterent.

Just out of curiosity, what would it take to impose a law whereby anyone who attacked a garda / fire officer / ambo etc. was legally no longer entitled to sue for any damages or injuries that would be received in the course of the service personnel defending themselves?
It may make them think twice if there was a possibility of being beaten to within an inch of their lives and having no legal comeback.

CO19

CLADA wrote: »

Well then my answer should have been: "In general no, but there is a sgt somewhere in the country who would prefer a good hiding free from interfering passers by"

Yea I put his attitude to me down to him feeling embarrassed about getting help from A:a young lad and B: the fact he was a Sgt but it always makes me very cautious about helping the Gards if I was ever needed to.

CLADA wrote: »

from interfering passers by"

So was I wrong to help him ? was I an interfering passer by

Victor

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what would it take to impose a law whereby anyone who attacked a garda / fire officer / ambo etc. was legally no longer entitled to sue for any damages or injuries that would be received in the course of the service personnel defending themselves?

It would take an act of the Oireachtas, approved by the president and not invalidated by the courts.

But why should a trained Garda with back-up get better legal protections to a shop cashier?

deadwood

Assault is assault. Each case must be treated on its' own merits.
Nice thought, though.

Eru

CO19 wrote: »

Yea I put his attitude to me down to him feeling embarrassed about getting help from A:a young lad and B: the fact he was a Sgt but it always makes me very cautious about helping the Gards if I was ever needed to.


So was I wrong to help him ? was I an interfering passer by

Well I have always appreciated any help given provided its actual help. Happens sometimes that a drunk will think he is helping but is making things ten times worse. Have asked for and recieved help on more than one occasion and had many more where I wanted but didnt get any

Victor wrote: »

But why should a trained Garda with back-up get better legal protections to a shop cashier?

Because a shop cashier can simple let the person commit the crime, can run away or simple hide away.

Gardai cannot, we have to stop the crime, arrest the person and take on criminals despite the danger to ourselves.

that applies to DFB and prisons, etc. We have jojbs too do and cant just turn around and go back to the station.

There is a law concerning attacking emergency services, could have sworn it involves a 5 year sentence and anyway, no one can sue a person for using self defence. The problem with people going after the state is that the state settles out of court in what can only be described as 'sush money'. IE better to pay than risk bad PR by fighting the cases and loses some of them.

Victor wrote: »

Incident 1: Fire brigade crew respond to a bonfire. Local kids are annoyed, but move on when its put out. Gardaí show up and are stoned by the kids.

Incident 2: Garda responds to a bonfire before the fire brigade gets there. Gardaí are being attacked and the fire brigade crew intervenes. Kids move from neutral against the fire bridge to disliking the fire brigade.

Incident 3: Fire brigade crew respond to a bonfire. Fire brigade crew stoned by kids. Fire brigade crew withdraws until garda arrives. Fire brigade inextricably linked to Garda in the minds of the kids.

Incident 4: Fire brigade can't respond to ambulance call.

---

While, yes both fire brigade and Garda are on the side of good, they have different priorities and different jobs.

Victor,
can you explain your scenarious better? Fire are getting attacked and stoned all the time especially on Holloween night. They certainly arent seen as neutral and no one here either Gardai or DFB are supporting your statement

Victor

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Because a shop cashier can simple let the person commit the crime, can run away or simple hide away.

While that might be OK for some property crime, it isn't OK for violent crime or persistant property crime.

Saturday 21 May 1994, Martin Doherty is shot dead in the Widow Scallon's pub in Pearse Street. Theres about 15 of us working in McDonald's O'Connell Bridge. Where do 100+ drunk, scared, pissed off provos go for burgers and start a fight?

CO19

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well I have always appreciated any help given provided its actual help. Happens sometimes that a drunk will think he is helping but is making things ten times worse. Have asked for and recieved help on more than one occasion and had many more where I wanted but didnt get any

Good to know,I wasn't drunk or anything like that...perish the thought I looked on the situation as A:I'm not going to let these scumbags run off under the illusion that they got a copper and B; I went to help the Sgt as he was/is someone's dad and it could have been my dad in that situation and I would hope that if he ever was that someone else would go to help him and they certainly wouldn't get eat out of it for doing so either like I did.

Eru

Victor wrote: »

While that might be OK for some property crime, it isn't OK for violent crime or persistant property crime.

Saturday 21 May 1994, Martin Doherty is shot dead in the Widow Scallon's pub in Pearse Street. Theres about 15 of us working in McDonald's O'Connell Bridge. Where do 100+ drunk, scared, pissed off provos go for burgers and start a fight?

A, violent crime you can run away from. If you get attacked on the street you can run away. Of course sometimes you are cornered etc but thats the first option. Gardai not only have to fight that fight but have to fight your fight as well. We cant see a guy being assaulted and keep walking, we get involved when theres no initial danger to us.

B, Yes and how many Gardai were standing on O'Connell Street, driving by in patrol cars, watching from discreet locations and using the CCTV camera thats right outside your door and monitored by a Garda 24/7? then when they did something the staff can back away, go into the back area and stay there until the Gardai willingly take on these people and make it safe for you while taking the bruises themselves.

dfbfire/ambo

couple of points here. max sentence for attacking emergency services is 7 years (at discretion of the court) since 2007 .. unfortunatly courts dont visit our world after 12.. no disrespect but garda in attendance before fire ambo.. very rare.. they lashed as bad as us.. scumbags have blue light fever... doesnt matter if you garda , fire, or ambo.. blue lights = brick them out of it ..have also witnessed in one area i worked previously garda "scout cart" .. just a drive by while we getting hammered to see how many troops required.. 5 minutes later 3 van loads arrive... like i mentioned in earlier post area where i work now garda and dfb work very well together.. probably siege mentality with all of us