Metro North is in doubt (never voting FF again if they scrap this)

Ckal

armada104 wrote: »

For someone so uninformed, you're being mightily arrogant. The reason the Luas "glides on past" cars and buses is because it doesn't run on the road. This has been explained to you and you're choosing to ignore it. The Green Line runs on the alignment of an old railway and the Red Line runs along a canal and in the middle of a motorway. We don't actually have any old rail lines lying about at this stage (except Liffey Junction to Broadstone, where a Luas line IS planned). And the areas served by the red line aren't exactly bustling (not many people live in industrial estates).

At the sections of Luas sharing road with cars and buses, the Luas doesn't glide past anything, even with priority at traffic lights. On street trams do nothing buses can't. The reason the Red and Green lines work is that they mostly aren't on street.

You don't know me, so you can't call me arrogant or uninformed from a few posts. I'm having a say in this. It's my opinion. And this is a discussion forum, so people should expect differences. I've lived in Dublin and in the East for 13 years and I visit regularly, so I'm well aware.

The section from Heuston to Connolly is run entirely on road/street, and it is faster than the bus. Maybe that's just the time of day I have traveled on it, but it is faster some times. I've taken the bus, and I've taken the LUAS. LUAS gets my vote by far.

And buses, one problem. People from Sandyford who want to travel to city centre can wait for a bus... wait being the operative word. Some buses which go in the same direction as the LUAS lines can be delayed by 40 minutes or so. I've had that experience. And thank god for the LUAS being there.

murphaph

Ckal wrote: »

The section from Heuston to Connolly is run entirely on road/street, and it is faster than the bus. Maybe that's just the time of day I have traveled on it, but it is faster some times.

That's really not a good enough reason to build more of this 'sometimes beats the bus' tramline. Dublin deserves better as the capital and economic heart of our country.

markpb

Ckal wrote: »

The section from Heuston to Connolly is run entirely on road/street, and it is faster than the bus. Maybe that's just the time of day I have traveled on it, but it is faster some times. I've taken the bus, and I've taken the LUAS. LUAS gets my vote by far.

Sometimes the bus is faster, sometimes the Luas is faster. That's not enough when you compare the costs of bus lane vs. Luas line. There's no point spending millions extra for little or no benefit.

And buses, one problem. People from Sandyford who want to travel to city centre can wait for a bus... wait being the operative word. Some buses which go in the same direction as the LUAS lines can be delayed by 40 minutes or so. I've had that experience. And thank god for the LUAS being there.

No-one is arguing about the Green Luas line, it is fantastic (but could be faster, carry more people, etc) but that's entirely because it runs on an old dedicated train line. [Although saying that, the last time the line was out of service, my 46b took the same length of time as the Luas...] You can't recreate that to Santry or Swords because no train line exists so either we take the cheap option and spend millions making something that isn't faster than a bus or we spend billions going underground, doing it properly, making it worthwhile and carrying lots of people.

It's not a clear cut decision, we can't say the Luas is fine because it has problems, we can't say Metro is too expensive because it has inherent value over the Luas. Either the cost benefit analysis says it's worth it, or we do nothing, there's no point trying to compromise and wasting money.

KC61

Ckal wrote: »

You don't know me, so you can't call me arrogant or uninformed from a few posts. I'm having a say in this. It's my opinion. And this is a discussion forum, so people should expect differences. I've lived in Dublin and in the East for 13 years and I visit regularly, so I'm well aware.

The section from Heuston to Connolly is run entirely on road/street, and it is faster than the bus. Maybe that's just the time of day I have traveled on it, but it is faster some times. I've taken the bus, and I've taken the LUAS. LUAS gets my vote by far.

And buses, one problem. People from Sandyford who want to travel to city centre can wait for a bus... wait being the operative word. Some buses which go in the same direction as the LUAS lines can be delayed by 40 minutes or so. I've had that experience. And thank god for the LUAS being there.

In general since the continuous bus lane opened along the north quays, the bus is now the fastest way of travelling from Heuston to the City Centre - in fact I've never seen the tram beat the bus yet since the bus lane opened.

armada104

Ckal wrote: »

And buses, one problem. People from Sandyford who want to travel to city centre can wait for a bus... wait being the operative word. Some buses which go in the same direction as the LUAS lines can be delayed by 40 minutes or so. I've had that experience. And thank god for the LUAS being there.

Thank God indeed for the green line Luas, which runs on an old rail line. Of course that's going to be better than the bus. I'm trying not to get personal here, but it's difficult when you continue to ignore the fact that the speed and efficiency of the green line CANNOT BE RECREATED anywhere else in Dublin. As I said, it's been explained to you. On-street, trams are glorified buses.

Ckal

I'm not trying to start fights here. And I'm not ignoring anything, I'm reading it all, (just so you know ).

I just think it's stupid to build ONE underground metro line and not two or three, in the long run it will be cheaper to build two or three lines at the very beginning rather than one line with extensions here and there and a new line here and an extension there etc. I'd be happy if the metro north was built with a spur through harold's cross and a spur through the north-west city. And maybe they could do a circle line like most metros have. It could go under the canals. :rolleyes:

murphaph

Ckal wrote: »

I'm not trying to start fights here. And I'm not ignoring anything, I'm reading it all, (just so you know ).

I just think it's stupid to build ONE underground metro line and not two or three, in the long run it will be cheaper to build two or three lines at the very beginning rather than one line with extensions here and there and a new line here and an extension there etc. I'd be happy if the metro north was built with a spur through harold's cross and a spur through the north-west city. And maybe they could do a circle line like most metros have. It could go under the canals. :rolleyes:

So are you advocating more on street Heuston-Connolly style tram or more underground tram?

Ckal

murphaph wrote: »

So are you advocating more on street Heuston-Connolly style tram or more underground tram?

Both, really. I'd like an extensive tram network AND an extensive metro network. It works very well in Oslo, so I think it would work wonders in Dublin.

murphaph

Ckal wrote: »

Both, really. I'd like an extensive tram network AND an extensive metro network. It works very well in Oslo, so I think it would work wonders in Dublin.

Well I wouldn't mind it either but on a practical level, we don't have the dosh for both just now, so which would provide a better starting point to be getting on with? I vote for the underground option myself.

KC61

Ckal wrote: »

Both, really. I'd like an extensive tram network AND an extensive metro network. It works very well in Oslo, so I think it would work wonders in Dublin.

Indeed it might, but I suspect that in Oslo the streets are somewhat wider than is the case in most of the arterial routes in Dublin City.

On most arterial routes in Dublin there is simply not the roadspace for two tram lines and two lanes of traffic - that is the problem here. Look at it now - how many routes have continuous inbound and outbound bus lanes? There's only one and that's the N11 Stillorgan QBC.

The scope for developing an extensive tram network in Dublin, without incurring huge expense relating to property acquisition/demolition, is very limited. In an ideal world I'd be all for it, but it really is not a runner in Dublin. Trams need to have a speed advantage over bus/car. Because of the street design that we have, on-street trams have little potential for delivering that.

I would be a firm supporter of developing a metro along the central spine of south Dublin through Terenure as I think this really is the only option for a rapid rail link to this part of the city.

murphaph

Picture the scene.

Metro North (luas really) complete and connected to the green line delivering premetro standard from Lissenhall all the way to Cherrywood. Call this the north-south spine.

Luas Red line diverted at Suir Road to run elevated over the canal on a slim-deck (more possible these days with modern techniques) and crossing the north-south spine at Charlemont (already an elevated station!) and continuing to Grand Canal Dock DART station where it would terminate. Alternatively (and much more expensively I believe) the canal could be temporarily drained and the trench deepened and an immersed tube tunnel built before recovering and flooding the waterway again.

Luas Red Line is highly segregated as far as Suir Road and this benefit should be capitalised upon. In this time of recession it's wildly optimistic to even imagine we'll get all that's in T21 but in the future I think we should be thinking more premetro and less tram.

monument

murphaph wrote: »

I'm advocating the better tram system. You're advocating a less perfect system (presumably to save money?)...

I'm not trying to come here and advocate one system over another. But I think trams are being given an hard time here.

In general, I'm in favour of the idea of Metro North, the green line Luas being upgraded, and a tunnelled metro to Tallaght via Harold's Cross.

However I'd have questions over the benefit of tunnelling tram lines when they get to the city centre - not only the high cost, but the cost vs benefit. But in saying that, I'm not dismissing the idea off hand. It has the clear benefit of speed, and at least you're proactivly suggesting something rather than just reacting.

And in regards to the red line and on street running of trams I've started a new thread here.

strassenwolf

murphaph wrote:

Well, in that case the FIRST thing to do is ban cars from specific corridors and introduce bus only routes all over the city. Of course because we are a low rise, low density city, you'll need to provide vehicular access somehow. It'd need strict policing.

Of course, in the central area - i.e. the Dublin City Council area, Dublin is not a low density city.

It is the densities which prevail in the other council areas in the county which have led to the view that it's overall a low density city.

This is unfortunate, as it has delayed development of decent public transport projects in the areas of the city which could most efficiently support them.

When you combine this with the FF predeliction for sucking property developer cock, you end up with the current situation where the main public transport developments are on the fringes of the city (e.g Citywest) rather than in the higher density areas where such developments (e.g tunnelling between Fatima and Charlemont, as suggested, or fast-tracking the LUAS to Finglas) would make the most economic sense.

murphaph

Yeah the area surrounded by the canals is of decent density alright (but there are still plenty of houses with gardens in there too ) and having looked a bit more closely at the Fatima-Charlemont idea, I actually think there's plenty of room to just run from Suir Road, following the canal (the way it does from the Black Lion to Suir Road!) all the way to Grand Canal Dock. Short flyovers would be required to get the line up and over each junction but overall it would be very cheap in comparison with tunnelling and being on the surface would be more accessible.

The connections it would add (Charlemont and Grand Canal Dock and numerous bus routes) would really add value to the network. The reason it would work is the segregation afforded. Even if the tram crossed each junction at grade, it would still work well becuase there are limited bridges over the canal. The busier junctions could have a flyover provided.

Pity we've no money left

spacetweek

I don't buy this nonsense about Metro North being cancelled.

If the Metro has this much momentum, then the business community and other players etc (Ballymun Regen, retailers, DCU, Dublin Airport etc.) will have been making all their plans for the last while with the Metro in mind. So they won't let the gov postpone or cancel.

People here are always complaining about the gov letting themselves be unduly influenced by private companies. This is one situation where it actually works in everyone's favour.

Really, the amount of speculative, taxi-driver, Evening Herald/Indo rumour milling that goes on in this forum is shocking.

stiktoir

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Metro North has been pushed back to start after the St Stephens Green station has been built for the Interconnector.

The Dept of Finance WILL NOT TOLERATE two contractors working on St Stephens Green at the same time because the turf wars between them will end up costing €Billions.

So the Interconnector goes first , thats it .

Metro North has been pushed back to likely start 2014 or 2015

WILL NOT TOLERATE......................spoofing?

markf909

stiktoir wrote: »

WILL NOT TOLERATE......................spoofing?

I wish I was as confident as you.

Irish public transport history will show you the Govt are world class at talking about transport.

dodgyme

meditraitor wrote: »

I get frustrated time and time again with people who vote FF......

here here

Sponge Bob

markf909 wrote: »

Irish public transport history will show you the Govt are world class at talking about transport.

Quite, remember Biddy O Rourke anyone ??

"Today marks the start of a process which will "result in the construction of a public transport system which will last for 100 years or more.

The first phase of the metro is to link Dublin Airport, Blanchardstown and Shankill to the city centre. Part of it will run underground.

The DTO hopes the first phase of the metro will be operating by 2007. Phase one development between 2000 and 2006 will cost €1.27bn".

Oh and another Biddy special

"Mr Ahern is to attend a photocall featuring a LUAS carriage in Merrion Square next Sunday.

Today Labour's Eamon Gilmore claimed that the public had been puzzled by the construction of a section of railway line along one side of the square, which transpired to be for the purpose of Sunday's event.


He said that preparation for the photocall had involved much digging, parking restrictions, and disruption to traffic.

Mr Gilmore challenged the Taoiseach to disclose the full cost of the exercise, claiming that when the event was over the carriage would be taken away and the hard pressed Dublin commuter would not see it again for several years."

stiktoir

markf909 wrote: »

I wish I was as confident as you.

Irish public transport history will show you the Govt are world class at talking about transport.

It's not a question of confidence...or trust, markf909
It's knowing the intentions of the key decision makers.
Of course nothing is 100% certain until it happens but some things are close to that...........

as said, amazing to read the spoofing of one or two posters.........

markf909

stiktoir wrote: »

It's not a question of confidence...or trust, markf909
It's knowing the intentions of the key decision makers.
Of course nothing is 100% certain until it happens but some things are close to that...........

Yes it is a question of both.

We've been promised many grandiose public transport projects going back to 1975.

Until the tunnel machines are boring then we are no closer to Metro North despite your insight.