Where can the Batman saga go next? [Contains TKD spoilers]

faceman

Ive been wondering since seeing the Dark Knight on Tuesday where the saga can go next. Clearly a sequel is tee'd up given the ending and a piece to wrap it all up is necessary.

However where can Nolan go now while keeping the "realism" that the first 2 films contain? The plot/theme to the movies doesnt justify many of the more common Batman villians such as Mr. Freeze, Riddler or Catwoman. Then again, knowing Nolan he could turn a character like Penguin into a deformed mafia boss at ease!

Im sure many of you are more familiar with the Batman lore. What are the options?

Sorry for the nerdy thread!

MikeHoncho

Was only discussing this with girlfriend last night after we saw it (she is a big comic nut). And the only real conclusion we came to is that its going to be tough. There is no way you can get someone else to play Joker but im sure that any plans they would have had for a 3rd would have involved him if Heath hadnt died.

The Penguin could be done (not the ludicrous mutant penguin from Batman Returns) just an ugly little man who is knicknamed The Penguin but he will never work as a main villain only as support. Catwoman would suck too as would Freeze, Hatter, Bane, Ivy etc.

There is only 3 options as I see it:

1: Dent didnt actually die at the end of TDK. He was taken to a secure facility but his demise was announced to the public to help keep hope etc.

2: The Riddler: Not the Jim Carey version. Just a semi normal guy who is obsessed with committing crimes and leaving clues for Batman to find because he wants to prove he is smarter than him. Could be played out much like your typical serial killer movie.

3: Manbat: Only joking.

Its gonna be tough. Maybe they should adapt The Dark Knight Returns with a completly new older cast.

Not The Real Scarecrow

I reckon they should try and bring in some take on the Knightfall saga, would be great to see Azrael come into it.

faceman

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Was only discussing this with girlfriend last night after we saw it (she is a big comic nut). And the only real conclusion we came to is that its going to be tough. There is no way you can get someone else to play Joker but im sure that any plans they would have had for a 3rd would have involved him if Heath hadnt died.

The Penguin could be done (not the ludicrous mutant penguin from Batman Returns) just an ugly little man who is knicknamed The Penguin but he will never work as a main villain only as support. Catwoman would suck too as would Freeze, Hatter, Bane, Ivy etc.

There is only 3 options as I see it:

1: Dent didnt actually die at the end of TDK. He was taken to a secure facility but his demise was announced to the public to help keep hope etc.

2: The Riddler: Not the Jim Carey version. Just a semi normal guy who is obsessed with committing crimes and leaving clues for Batman to find because he wants to prove he is smarter than him. Could be played out much like your typical serial killer movie.

3: Manbat: Only joking.

Its gonna be tough. Maybe they should adapt The Dark Knight Returns with a completly new older cast.

I dont think Riddler or Catwoman will work. Ultimately the TDK is about controlling mob crime in Gotham which is out of control. Catwoman is just a petty thief ultimately and Riddler, well, i dont think he fits in anywhere!

johnny_ultimate

Not big up on my Batman, but I do think they could use the Penguin to some degree, just not the Tim Burton version. As faceman said, most of the villians just won't fit into the Nolan universe. King Tut maybe

JangoFett

Penguin would work very well in this universe, crime boss style, like he is now in the comics books "I'm a legitimate businessman!"

Catwoman would work as well, but not a grand scheme villain, more of a flirtation/severe sexual tension character for Bats and then have another villain as the main antagonist...Ra's could come back easily, Scarecrow is still out there, Joker (they COULD get another actor...maybe), Two-Face...maybe they'll have them team up against Bats and then maybe have Bats have some help? Skip Dick Grayson ahead and just have Nightwing...he'd work in these films, not Robin.

And they wouldn't make the mistakes Spidey 3 made, Nolan and his brother wrote this, they'll write the third

robby^5

One thing I hope Nolan has stashed away is some sort of conclusion for the Joker, because leaving things as they are doesn't really do justice to the joker for me really.

After Heaths death Nolan was editing the film so you think he'd find a way to end the Jokers story arc, easiest way would have been for him to die on that rooftop, so I'm waiting until he day they announce they'll be using some unused footage for the sequel or something.

Possibly the best thing about this brilliant film is that there is no obvious door left open to a sequel, there is no big reveal of two face at the end... we really have no idea where Nolan will take the story next, I love that.

ghouldaddy07

I would laugh if nolen just got clooney to play batman again and have him fight clayface who would be played by silvestre stalone.

Driver 8

I don't think the Joker was supposed to fall. That would more or less a text book copy of his fate in Burton's first Batman.

To crib an idea I've heard mentioned on some websites-how about Casey Affleck as the Riddler? The Assasination of Batman by the Coward Edward Nygma :P

Think that idea's a good 'un though

robby^5

I know he probably wasn't supposed to die, but since Ledger cant reprise the role you'd think Nolan would have edited the film so that the Joker had a more conclusive ending other than presumably getting arrested by the swat team, someone could have mentioned he was carted off to Arkham or something

Driver 8

Arrest and imprisonment in Arkham not conclusive?

robby^5

Was it mentioned that he was sent to Arkham? I didn't catch that.

Basq

To be honest.. if anyone can bring about a credible Batman villian revival, it's Nolan!

Did anyone else see Tommy Lee Jones's Harvey Dent / Two Face in 'Batman Forever'? It was woeful. But given a talented actor and some top-class writing can revive any character (as Aaron Eckhart and Christoper Nolan has shown us).

Basq

Actually.. while we're talking about this..

In the inevitable sequel and continuation of the Batman saga.. if they did plan on continuing with the Joker character, who could you see playing him? To be honest, the only actor that I could see in that role is (hear me out) Daniel Day Lewis. Although possibly a bit too old, it could be a variation of somewhere the characters between Daniel Plainview and Bill The Butcher... but with more maniacal energy.

I know.. I know.. they shouldn't use The Joker in respect of both Heath Ledgers performance and all. But Christopher Nolan probably wouldn't even consider it anyways.

Nunu

basquille wrote: »

Actually.. while we're talking about this..

In the inevitable sequel and continuation of the Batman saga.. if they did plan on continuing with the Joker character, who could you see playing him? To be honest, the only actor that I could see in that role is (hear me out) Daniel Day Lewis. Although possibly a bit too old, it could be a variation of somewhere the characters between Daniel Plainview and Bill The Butcher... but with more maniacal energy.

I know.. I know.. they shouldn't use The Joker in respect of both Heath Ledgers performance and all. But Christopher Nolan probably wouldn't even consider it anyways.

Nail on the friggin head! That's almost word for word what i was going to write!

I feel the joker has to be in the third installment and am certain he will be...what was the jokers quote?- "i think were destined to do this forever"....Daniel Day Lewis is perfect and capable to step up to the plate and do the role justice following on from Ledgers genius interpretation

robby^5

I honestly couldn't imagine anyone else taking up the role of The Joker, tbh I'd lose all respect for the new films if they did cast a new actor to play him.

I'm hoping the writers and Nolan can pull off another new villain as well as they did Two face and Joker, it's going to be a hard task because to me it sort of seemed like they were setting the Joker up be a main villain in the sequel, thinking about it now it could have been Two Face and Joker working together which would have been quite interesting.

I reckon they could pull off the Riddler, and my favourite to play that character would be Robin Williams.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Batman Vs commander Worf.

that'd be a great movie.

stereoroid

One word: Zsasz. :eek:

When I got the DVD of The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford the minute I saw Casey Affelck I though of him as the Mad Hatter. Not sure if Nolan wants to bring the Hatter in but if he does Affelck is perfect.

Someone like Philip Seymour Hoffman would be perfect for the Punguin. Mess his face up a little, throw on a fake nose and a tux and there you go. From what I gather Two Face will be back, I'm pretty sure Eckhart is under contract for two films and he has stated that he wants to return.The Scarecrow is also knocking around and the mob bosses are all still alive. I'd like to see Eric Roberts return, been a long time since a film featuring him debuted anywhere outside a bargain bin.

Thinkin about it Hush could be pretty easily introduced and if handled properly he could prove an interesting villain.

Einstein

I too like all of ya, love this saga and would love to see a third go as well as the last two.
What about Johnny Depp as Joker? Definitly a guy that can get into a character...?

Einstein

Einstein wrote: »

I too like all of ya, love this saga and would love to see a third go as well as the last two.
What about Johnny Depp as Joker? Definitly a guy that can get into a character...?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...........................

Anyone but Depp please. While he is a good actor he's totally unsuited for the Joker. He'd just make it Jack Sparrow mark 2. If they insist on bringing the Joker back then Crispin Glover is the man.

johnny_ultimate

I'm surprised people are so against having someone else take over the Joker role if required for the story. Heath Ledger was totally fantastic, no doubt, and while respect is due, I know I'd like to see the character return. In Harry Potter, Richard Harris died and things just moved along smoothly. While another actor may not live up to the performance Ledger gave, it is still a role open to interpretation and the character shouldn't be buried because of his death.

pixelburp

I would agree, but let's face it; Ledger has single handedly (though in no small part to the script) redefined the role & character of The Joker. To introduce another actor would just get all the wrong reactions. Particularly given all the oscar talk around this role.

A big problem with the comic movie franchise is that you pretty much have to have a new villain each movie; so the longer the franchise lasts, the worse the villains get. This problem is doubly an issue when the new Batman films intentionally grounds themselves in our reality. So that almost instantly eliminates Killer Croc, Clayface, Manbat & any other "mutant" style villains. So you're left with the "humans". The Penguin? I dunno, he could be retro-fitted as a slightly deformed mob boss. The Riddler? Possibly as he could be re-fitted into a genius serial-killer as someone suggested, teasing Batman with his clues. Catwoman's too much of a comic love-interest than an interesting character so I wouldn't even consider her.

One thing is for certain though; whatever villain they choose, he / she will be performing in Ledger's shadow.

Karl Hungus

When people first heard that Ledger had been cast as the Joker, nobody thought he could pull it off. Going back to when it was announced 2 years ago here:

Kingp35 wrote: »

I really dont think Ledger is right for the part. Im not sure if he has the acting ability or presence to play a psychopath.

I think someone could be equally as capable of taking over the mantle from Heath, and surprise people just as much.

faceman

Karl Hungus wrote: »

When people first heard that Ledger had been cast as the Joker, nobody thought he could pull it off. Going back to when it was announced 2 years ago here:



I think someone could be equally as capable of taking over the mantle from Heath, and surprise people just as much.

I was one of those non believers too!

Basq

Karl Hungus wrote: »

When people first heard that Ledger had been cast as the Joker, nobody thought he could pull it off. Going back to when it was announced 2 years ago here:

Oh man.. that thread is classic! So many naysayers proven wrong!

robby^5

There's plenty of people who could play the Joker, but casting a new actor to play the Joker would either mean an entirely new Joker persona or an emmulation of Ledgers Joker which wouldnt really work imo.

Pepe LeFrits

I wouldn’t have any problem with another actor taking on the role of the Joker in the next film.

I think a lot of the objection to it is because of Ledger’s demise.

We’ve had countless portrayals and interpretations of Batman, so why not the Joker? No disrespect to Ledger, who was fantastic in the role, but the Joker has been around for nearly 70 years and will still be around in the future. As good as Ledger was as, he is not the Joker, but merely one (exceptional) interpretation of the character. There are other great actors out there who I'm certain could take the Joker in fascinating new directions.

From an older thread:

missingtime wrote: »

Why did they have to bring up The Joker again anyway? No one will ever top Jack Nicholsons' performance.

Sounds familiar...

Killme00

I dont think it will be the Joker. I think the next villian will be a real villain. Someone who takes over Gotham and gets the people on his side, possibly as Mayor and chases Batman all the way to hell. He uses Batman as the fall guy too all of his crimes and uses the power and trust he gains from the people for his own greed. Someone like but not quite Max Schrek and definitely not Penguin.

Mitch Connor

I agree - I think it will be someone who can play the 'White Knight' role as Dent did, to carry on the current story arc for Batman.

1. Full of hope and idealism.
2. Brought down by the responsibilities and burdens of being batman, to the point where he 'becomes' what he vowed not to.
3. Fights back against his reputation is an badguy to gain redemption?

BopNiblets

Talia Al Ghul and Harley Quinn try to get revenge against Batman and recruit Catwoman to help, in a sexy romp.

But srsly, I'm not sure how David S Goyer can top his own work.
Both movies pulled quite a bit of stuff from the comics so I reckon if he gets the right material and a decent idea he can do it!

Two Face for example has his two-meaning crime spree from Dark Victory (I think it was).

ghouldaddy07

I wouldnt mine a completly redisgned bane who just wants to kill batman and eventully dose.

Xavi6

robby^5 wrote: »

I reckon they could pull off the Riddler, and my favourite to play that character would be Robin Williams.

You're taking the piss surely by saying Robin feckin Williams. I love The Riddler as a character and would like him involved but jeez that'd be woeful.

Can't see Scarecrow playing much more of a part in the series. He had his big moment in 'Begins' and was only touched on in the TDK briefly so I'd say Nolan can't really develop him any further.

declanoneill

Not so much in the next film, but given that marvel are building towards a group superhero movie, I'd love to see something similar with batman. Now I don't mean Justice League stuff, I mean given how TDK took such comics as killing joke, why not build towards "The Dark Knight Returns". Have Batman go into retirement with half the city thinking he's a villain, the other half a hero, then have him come back and knock the sh1te outta Superman.

zAbbo

Batman Comeback Special in Las Vegas!

shenanigans1982

I think the Riddler is the favourite, maybe bring him in as some kind of police psychologist/ private eye helping them to track Batman all the while pinning his crimes on Batman. Almost certain Eckhart has another movie to do as somebody already said although that combination didn't work too well last time.

robby^5

Xavi6 wrote: »

You're taking the piss surely by saying Robin feckin Williams. I love The Riddler as a character and would like him involved but jeez that'd be woeful.

Hardly. I'm speaking of the Robin Williams from Insomnia, One Hour Photo and Death to Smoochy. I think he'd be perfect for the role of a much darker riddler, I'm thinking a riddler who is more along the lines of a serial killer playing mind games with batman.

He was one of the big names up for The Joker originally too so he's obviously interested in being involved in the films, I think he'd be a great choice.

Reflector

Well they didn't really hint to a new villain only that I'd say the third one will be the police tracking batman and his redemption in the eyes of Gotham.

Some form of the riddler would be interesting but a more sinister approach then from previous incarnations.
Also because Joker killed a lot of the current gotham crime bosses that would be a good opportunity for a new crime boss to come in "the penguin" and fill that role.

maybe harley quinn would be fun, the joker corrupting someone to do his bidding.
who knows what they'll do.

L31mr0d

Reflector wrote: »

Well they didn't really hint to a new villain only that I'd say the third one will be the police tracking batman and his redemption in the eyes of Gotham.

It can never happen, superhero stories have to follow the philosophical constant that the more just an individual becomes the less just the people will find them. This comes about from the inverse definition of a person who is increasingly unjust. The better a person is at being unjust the better they will be at fooling the people that they are not (see Aristotle's writings on Justice)

All hero/saviour stories follow this constant, and the best ones follow it to the letter. All heroes will be hated by the people they are trying to protect. Which we can see with this recent Batman movie that the more just Batman becomes the more he is being hated by the people of Gotham.

In regards to the next movie, I don't really see a need for bringing the joker back, there are plenty of excellent Batman villians that would fit into the realistic world of Batman that is being portrayed in these movies. Although for a true nemesis story, Batman needs the Joker as he is the antithesis of everything he stands for.

Although it would be nice to see Calender Man make an appearance :rolleyes:

Why_So_Serious?

I was one of the people that thought Ledger was gonna be crap as the Joker too but he proved me wrong from the minute i seen the adverts i knew it would be the best film of the year...But i think Depp could reprise the role as the joker and make it good...As for who could be the villian in the next one I don't think that penguin would really fit in but I think the Black mask would fit in in that place as the mafia boss off gotham. As for the main villian I think riddler would be good if it was done properly and not with Jim carey. I heard there was talk of casey affleck playing the riddler but i heard david tennant has said he would also like too play it. As for Dent/ Two-Face coming I thought he died but i guess not so it would be good too see how this plays out.

kelator

BopNiblets wrote: »

Talia Al Ghul and Harley Quinn try to get revenge against Batman and recruit Catwoman to help, in a sexy romp.

Talia would fit into next film perfectlly as the new leader of league of assassins. She could also act as love interest to Bruce

Melion

Id give the role of Joker to Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Laugh all you want but i think he would be a good choice, he is even the spitting image of Heath Ledger.

The hardest part about the Joker in TDK was to create the character like that rather than the way Jack Nicholson played him. All anyone has to do now is act the part. Its a much easier task than what faced Nolan and Ledger when they started shooting TDK.

johnson1

Did anyone notice when batman had been attacked by dogs he got his suit redone and when he said it should hold off a few pitbulls i think it was alfred who said "or cats" ? Maybe it was a bit of a joke from nolan but i thought it was a sure hint at cat woman.

Also i rekon the riddler would be great and i'd have no problem with someone else playing the joker (althought ledger was excellant).

duridian

johnson1 wrote: »

Maybe it was a bit of a joke from nolan but i thought it was a sure hint at cat woman.

That's not a bad point, I think Catwoman could play a role in the third film, simply because Batman though a hero,

is now on the run.

Catwoman is also a character who often seeems to bridge the good guy/bad guy thing, she is usually bad, but not bad through and through, more like mischievious than evil. Might this not make her a potential ally to

a fugitive Batman

at some point in a third film?

cabrwab

After coming out of the cinema myself and the girlfriend had the same discussion, however you need to remember that technically Batman(1989) is the sequel to the dark knight, so therefore nolan, as with bat begins, left it to continue into the batman movie, not assuming he was getting a third shot straight away! at least that is the feeling i got.

Who do you have as a villian, the mini cartoons that where released before TDK had references to Doc Croc. But i thought nolan didn't want to do any of the camp characters eg riddler, poison ivy, mr freeze. Catwoman im not sure.

I like the idea of Bane as a up and coming mob boss who wants to just get batman. Well lets just wait and see! What a wait we have!

BopNiblets

Melion wrote: »

Id give the role of Joker to Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Laugh all you want but i think he would be a good choice, he is even the spitting image of Heath Ledger.

Good call!
Might have to put on a few pounds though, last I saw him he was shorter and skinnier.

Melion

BopNiblets wrote: »

Good call!
Might have to put on a few pounds though, last I saw him he was shorter and skinnier.

A lot of people said that Ledger wasnt the right build for Joker, he proved everyone wrong. Same kind of career paths too, Levitt is really starting to move away from all those teen flicks he was making a few years ago. He just needs one big serious role to make him a big name.

Vokes

Yeh, Levitt might be a good pick. He's been doing a couple of smaller independent flicks lately, and his acting chops seem pretty good.

Actually, the earliest Ledger film I remember was 10 Things I Hate About You which of course also starred Levitt. So it would be like coming full-circle

Sanjuro

Melion wrote: »

Id give the role of Joker to Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Laugh all you want but i think he would be a good choice, he is even the spitting image of Heath Ledger.

QFT. He's got the chops. I'd definately consider him if I were Nolan. However, Nolan would know best so I'd trust his judgement no matter who (if anybody) they recast. But Goyer and Nolan have had a few chats about the third film and they have a villain in mind. Dunno if it's the Joker or somebody else.

FionnMatthew

cabrwab wrote: »

After coming out of the cinema myself and the girlfriend had the same discussion, however you need to remember that technically Batman(1989) is the sequel to the dark knight, so therefore nolan, as with bat begins, left it to continue into the batman movie, not assuming he was getting a third shot straight away! at least that is the feeling i got.

What?

Batman Begins was a reboot as far as I was concerned. B'89 actually contains an origin story for the Joker and for Batman that is thoroughly at odds with Nolan's continuity.

I don't think any heed ought to be paid to the Burton franchise.

TBH, a lot of people are going on about how this movie has recreated Batman, and about how Ledger recreated the Joker, and I don't see that. As far as I'm concerned, the interpretation of the Joker we get in this film, and the brilliance of the film itself, are drawn from unswerving fidelity to the best parts of the Batman comics. A large part of the sinisterness of the Joker here was owed to the handling of the themes he represents, and his character and script.

That's the strength of this franchise. It's on the path to bringing the real Batman to the screen. It's a labour of love, rather than a labour of unharnessed creativity. The Dark Knight was immeasurably better than Batman Begins for this reason, because it was willing to tackle the tragic nature of Batman's crusade.

And that's what needs to be kept to.

As for where it might go next. I don't see too much of a problem with recasting Joker, although I don't think he ought to feature prominently if he does.

I don't think Johhny Depp ought to play him, though. He needs to be cast exactly, not with a "Jack of all trades psychpath actor." (And I like Depp.) Besides, he's too old.

TBH, I'd love to see The Dark Knight Returns. That's the spiritual/thematic root of the dark, serious Batman that Nolan is adapting. But that's perhaps a while away.

Beyond that, I'd like to see Gotham really take some punishment. I'd like to see the whole thing get shaken up big time. An amalgam of the stories of Cataclysm and No-Man's Land. Something really big, with plenty of villains, and plenty of opportunities for tragic heroism (and who cares about boring action sequences?!)

(You know, I wonder whether that was why we find Ledger's Joker so compelling. Because, as audience, we too find a perverse, ecstatic pleasure in watching all hell breaking loose on screen, and watching the Batman struggle to keep things together, to restore order in a universe of every increasing disorder. It's not about money or riches for us. We're outside all of that. We just want to watch the world burn. We want to see people suffer, and just, barely survive.

Just a thought!)

Slutmonkey57b

I predict nothing whatsoever is going to happen with this unless Nolan decides there's something interesting he wants to explore with the universe. He already stated that he took this film on because he knew how he wanted it to end (which explains why he didn't change it to kill off the Joker).

I think he had plans to use Joker in a third film, and will give that up now that Ledger is not around to fill the role - I can't see anyone managing to substitute like Gyllenhall did, unless they took up a revisioned joker who goes through some kind of trauma in Arkham.

Bale has already said he wouldn't do another one without Nolan and I don't see anything now that Nolan's going to find interesting enough to explore in terms of the characters. Remember that to him, this is primarily a character driven film, not a "scenario" driven event like a comic book is.