Areas to improve

LeixlipRed

Just want to open up a debate as to what people think are the areas we can improve on in the team. With the new season only a couple of months off I for one would like to know where people think we can improve. I'm not talking positionally, just what general areas of play need to be sorted. And then hopefully we can pick up a few players to help us out in those departments.

Positives:

We rarely give away the ball in possession. This is absolutely vital and something I try my hardest never to do. Never get dispossessed on the ball.

We score goals from all over the pitch. Enough said.

Negatives:

Fitness: We're a lot less fit than the top teams in the league. I'm working hard on my own fitness at the moment and this isn't a criticism of anyone but we need to pick up a few lads with decent stamina in the close season.

Positional Sense: A lot of our lads have never played competitive 11 a side as schoolboys or whatever. So they never had this battered into them for years.

There's others but I'll just leave it at that to get the debate going. I'm just curious to see what others will add or whatever. Give Des something to think about when have friendlies, etc.

Also, just like to reiterate (with an eye on the new season) how much everyone appreciates Des's efforts with the team and hopefully we can repay some of his hard work with a better season this winter.

homerjay2005

fitness is defo the key alright. getting more used to playing with each is another but the biggest thing to improve, is consistency, both in terms of people turning up to games and doing it on the pitch. attendance this year has been woeful, albeit alot was unavoidable.

also, we need a solid back 4 that will play 80-90% of games. we have never had that, i think if we sort this, we are on a winner. but we all know this, it has been said here many times before. if we are to go forward, we need to start at the back.

one last thing, we need to relax in games and not just follow the ball and focus on getting an attack going. i think this is similar to what martin was saying about positional sense. sometimes, defence can be the best form of attack.

we had an excellent winter league last year, lets use the next few weeks to set that up again. however, we need to hit the ground running this time, lets all make one massive effort to arrange friendlies and then turn up to them.

LeixlipRed

Yeh a settled team is something I left out. That's really what we lack.

FrankGrimes

Good idea Martin and as always, once it's not discussing individuals (which it hasn't so far), is welcome discussion.

I think most of the main points have been raised, though I disagree with the defence as best form of attack one. I see it the total opposite - I think we've been at our best when the defence, particularly the fullbacks, push up and look to offer a threat which presses the game into the opposition half. We've given some cheap goals away on the break in those situations, but overall I feel it nets out as our best approach. I also feel that we've been at our worst and in particular have conceded late goals when we consciously or sub-conciously sit back. That plays the game in our half, makes the area to be goverened by our midfield far too big, and gives the opposition the advantage on the breaking ball as we're not pressing space.

You'll also note that only the very weakest teams have a poorer record of decisively clearing long balls first time, though that's naturally tied to our inconsistent availability.

But for me the biggest one to improve is composure on the ball - we often get rushed on the ball and make poor decisions as a result. Getting more comfortable on the ball and taking the responsibility to put a foot on it in the right places and make the play is something that will help us move to the next level.

In fairness though, particularly with the woeful availability problems this season, we don't do too badly at all and still manage to generally play some lovely football for at the very least a spell in each game. Looking at the recent matches from the sidelines, it was clear to me we've made an improvement in one of my old pet hates - the tendency to always play the ball out wide instead of bringing the strikers into it early and giving them a chance to create something.

With a consistent squad available a lot of the above would address themselves with time, which leaves only one area that we are f**king disgraceful in: throw-ins!!!!!!!!!!!!

Savman

Oooh gravy...a chance to Dunphyize! :D

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Fitness

...or lack of, is absolutely killing us. We seem to be a thirty minute team atm. There is no way to step up a gear without addressing this topic alone.

LeixlipRed wrote:

Positional Sense: A lot of our lads have never played competitive 11 a side as schoolboys or whatever. So they never had this battered into them for years.

Fair point. But, sometimes, it doesn't hurt to listen to what's being said. Everybody has ears.

homerjay2005 wrote:

we need a solid back 4

Of course, but "solid" doesn't necessarily mean "the same 4 fellas every week". Whoever slots in needs to know they are stepping into a steady system, at the present minute it's easy to blame the chopping and changing and personnel but when you look at the squad tonight, we weren't miles off our strongest 11 so the same old excuses and finger pointing is a waste of time. We're just not organized enough, our defence is more like 4 individuals doing their own thing rather than a functioning unit. Just an observation.

homerjay2005 wrote:

one last thing, we need to relax in games and not just follow the ball and focus on getting an attack going. i think this is similar to what martin was saying about positional sense.

Yes, it's called "ball watching". People think it's some ancient Johnny Giles pun, yet they do it all the time. It's such a bad habit to get into. Watch any Under 8's league, you'll see kids chasing the ball like sheep, no offence to our lads but you have to be looking around you all the time.

"Fitness" and "sharpness" aren't the same thing, the former is physical and the latter is mostly mental, that's where we've fallen down this season IMHO.

Flame jacket on :pac:

Savman

btw I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence, but sometimes I reckon all this talk is pie in the sky because those that understand it are already doing it and those that don't haven't a clue what we're on about. We might as well be speaking Japanese.

Every player is different, if you start waffling terms like "inconsistent" "composure" and "positional sense" not everyone will know what to do about it. Sometimes less is more. Simple, concise instructions telling what you want someone to do and what they have (supposedly) done wrong to warrant an earbashing. I bring this up because there was some, er, "technical difficulties" in the back 4 tonight and I think it boiled down to fellas just not being able to understand each other. I think in this instance, the onus falls onto the more experienced player to keep a cool head. Ranting and shouting a foul mouthed tirade (and returning same) is the equivalent of footballing suicide and goes against the very ethos of what we all agreed this team was all about.

homerjay2005

jules, we as a team need to be fit before we start playing the cafu and evra style attacking defence until that is sorted, we cannot play it as it does not suit us, nor does 3 at the back. pushing up as a unit, definately yes, but theres a big difference in the 2. stop conceding goals should be our first aim. if you have some of your defence up the pitch, then your more likely to concede. im not pointing the finger at anybody here, i do it myself too.

like, how many games have we ever won 1-0? we very rarely win tight games, infact, last season (this season has been different), we only lost one or 2 games (max) by more 1 goal. alot of teams keep it tight and in all fairness, very few full backs get forward at this level. its our midfield 4 that need to press and maybe one of the 2 center halves to support them.

conceding late goals, is down to both fitness and then subsequently, lack of concentration as a result. we have conceded far too many goals in last 5-10 minutes this season, has happened tonight and last week also.id say it happens in bout 75% of our matches (4-0 up with 15 left 3 weeks ago, won 5-3 is another example)

just a thought. im defensively minded jules, your attacking, i like to play it safe and not concede, you want support for the attack, so we are not going to agree. the fact of the matter is, we have the ability to score in every game. its not up to our full backs to make sure this happens. our defences primary aim is to stop conceding. i would rather win a game 1-0 or 2-1, than loose 4-2 or 4-3 as has happened with us. we have struggled in midfield big time this year, again, no fault at anybody, we just have not had players in there for more than 2-3 games at a time and have not been able to field a settled 2 for one reason or another. lets start at the back and get the defending right first.

homerjay2005

all valid points sav. and yes, while this is a good thread to have, its the same 4 or 5 that will post and agree and disagree and ultimately we will learn very little. we have a good team and theres 3 or 4 small things that as individuals we need to do. everybody needs to learn something to improve.

as regards ranting on the pitch sav, its when we are quite that there is something to worry about. week in week out, we bemoan the lack of talking/communication etc on a pitch. tonight there was fight in the team and we got a great result. it can be good sometimes you know to have an extra bite. we have alot of players on the the team that dont open their mouth, when others are talking, it can help their game.

this thread will be dead by tomorrow im afraid though .

Savman

I think if you've played ball from/at a relatively young age, you'll usually know what you have to do, you will have good games and horrendous games but generally you are self-aware at the very least.
If you haven't played ball at schoolboy level, it's not a crime, perhaps this is a very good experience to develop and to learn to understand the game at local level. It ain't like it is on d'telly.;)

For once at least, I'd like to hear from the less vocal lads rather than us usual suspects nerd it out talkin tactics and whatnot

LeixlipRed

Ed, the fullbacks in modern football should be the fulcrum of the attack. That's why I enjoy playing there so much. Pushing the full backs on while leaving centre halves to defend is a vital part of any attacking teams play. Like it or lump it we're an attacking side. You can't win this league with negative tactics. The lack of slide tackling makes that impossible. Yes we need to concede a hell of a lot less goals but having two full backs doing nothing but defend wont help achieve that aim.

FrankGrimes

Savman wrote: »

For once at least, I'd like to hear from the less vocal lads rather than us usual suspects nerd it out talkin tactics and whatnot

Yeh, I second that. I suspect some lads may be reluctant to post on here cos they think they mightn't be experienced enough or up to a good enough standard to comment. That's a loada cack cos the whole ethos of this team is we're all equals as long as we're working for the good of the team.....so anyone that feels that way: your opinion counts and needs to be heard. Anyone that doesn't feel that way and just isn't bothering to post: you're part of a team and you need to speak up, even if it's just to say 'yeh, I agree or disagree with that'. We don't have training sessions so much as we might knock it, this forum is the only place we have a chance of improving the mindset - 5 minute chats before the games just can't achieve that.

Agree with the fitness being a prerequisite Ed and I agree with much of what's been posted here. Though for the record, all the highest level ball I played was at left full, left wingback, or left wing (before the shins kicked in) and the system of pressing the opposition half as the best form of defence I'm talking of is direct from some pretty experienced (ex EL) coaches I played for. It works, but only when done as a unit - one player sitting back opens the door. Agree that we're not there in terms of fitness but it is something we should aspire to. Lepo's best games for boardeaux for example were when he played that role - we can and have done it, but just not consistently.


So yeh, the 4 or 5 posting on here at the moment know the score and where each other stand and it's not a million miles off each other, but yeh until we get some input on here from fresh sources we should let it lie.

homerjay2005

martin, you know im not negative, i attack as much as any defender....my point ere is, before we going doing all these different things, we need to get the basics right on the field. im all for fullbacks flying up and down the wing and swinging in crosses, but as a team, are we capable of sustaining that? fitness and positional sense is key to this. we need to work on it and work at in detail. its not something that all teams do and we need to be able to master it. not just try it for the sake of it.

Idu

i'll throw in my two cents as a newbie then.

I agree with the fitness aspect in that in our engine we haven't got the legs to compete with the really fit teams in this league. Against Roy's Rovers a few weeks ago their midfielders were just running past us which puts too much pressure on the defence. Amd it's a catch 22 because, and no disrespect to anyone, the best players on the ball, who you want in the middle, are the ones lacking this fitness. Aside from Kenny nobody else who's played in their would be defined as a box to box kind of player

Also there seems to be no pressure on some lads in regard to their positions. Granted the squad isn't that big usually but it seems to me that the same group of players are being shoehorned into positions that don't suit them and don't suit the team. Obviously I don't mean to undermine Des and his selection's with this comment, it's just something I've noticed. This ties in to what Martin I think was saying about positional sense. It's going to affect a team when players are in unfamiliar positions and the best players don't necessarily make the best team. Look at Lampard and Gerrard for England.

Back to the fitness point but off topic is that we really lack a player from the middle of the park who'll get past the front two and latch on to flick ons, through balls etc. Our front players are isolated too often and when the wingers do get past them they dont usually have much to aim for in the middle.

Attendance at games has been poor for whatever reason. Sometimes these things cant be avoided. We all have work and other committments that take precedence sometimes and injuries are an unavoidable part of the game

Think thats it. As I said this isn't a criticism of anyone just an observation on what I saw this season

homerjay2005

cheers Ian.

so, in summary, we are all agreed that -

we need to get fit, in order to play attacking full backs and box to box midfielders.
players need to listen to each other and we need more instructional talking on the pitch.
we need to improve positional sense/ballwatching.
we need to have better and more consistent attendance.

none of these are too difficult to sort. its up to us as individuals to rectity it. we have a great squad, a great manager, a team that can play and is good enough to challenge.

pvt.joker

congrats on the draw last night, sounds hard fought.

I'll throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth.

The main area we need improvement on, in my opinion is fitness.
Personally speaking, 2 years ago when I joined boards I was fit as a fiddle, could run a full match non stop. Lost that fitness due to injury/laziness last year, and only getting it back now. The difference it makes to your game is night and day.
An averagely skilled , fit player, is worth more than a highly skilled unfit player, in my opinion. It makes a massive difference to your game.
What can be done about this? Lads have to work on it on their own, Id say im almost back there, and thats after 2 months in the gym most evenings.

Aside from that, I agree with everything Ed said in his last post.

LeixlipRed

Some good points Ian. And you're right, we need a player in the middle who is box to box and can run all night. We don't have that. Where that player comes from I've no idea. But all the top teams in this league have very athletic centre mids. We don't. Ok, some of us can play a bit. But it's no use if you cant match them fitness wise.

MagicMarker

Interesting read.... out of interest, what does the training consist of atm?

homerjay2005

there is none, thats the issue. the season only finished last week however.

plan is 4 or 5 get toghethers between here and the start of the new season. i will run some fitness session in 1 or 2 of those and this will test commitment of a few players. alot of us are not in good shape fitness wise and we all need to step up in terms of fitness.

helimachoptor

Just from my own experience last night, fitness is a big concern.

As pointed out above if you've only got 40 minutes of running in you, we are going to concede a lot of goals the in the back end of games.
With no offside last night the positioning off players wasn't that important but once the league proper starts its going to be critical.

Also lads communication on the pitch while watching and playing I only heard Ed and myself scream if we were claiming a ball, there were too many times where two of our lads would go for the same ball. We need to be more vocal and talk to the man beside you, this goes all the way from the keeper up the the two strikers.


my 2c

homerjay2005

yep, your spot on.

fitness is massive issue. at leasts 4 lads said to me last night that "im f*cked already" during the game and that was in the first half. the traffic cost us last night, but all going well next week, 30 mins running before the game may help us a bit. getting the second win is crucial. sometimes people dont open up until say 20-30 mins in, which is then too late. we also tend to fade in the last 5-10 mins and this cost us bigtime last season. i would say we conceded late goals in half of our games. i reckon theres only 3 people in the squad fully fit. some of those lads last night against us, were very athletic. the microsoft lads 2 weeks ago, steam rolled us also.

and we need more talking, more vocal support and more communication. if a lad is ball watching, he needs to be told and its up to the man behind you to tell you. I will f*ck people out of it and i expect the same if im day dreaming. i takes a bigger man to admit mistakes then give guff back. there is no problem supporting each other, but if it turns into a handbags exchange of words, then its a waste to the team. but we have always been a quite team except for 2 or 3 players. this needs to change, but im not talking about people moaning, im talking about encouragement, waking people up, seeing things that need to be seen, helping each other. defensively we have been poor last season, we conceded alot of silly goals, im going to do my bit to make sure that is cut out.

i also think the keeper should be the loudest man on the field. and theres no debate on that one!!!

but remember lads, theres a massive difference between blaming somebody or pointing the fingure which is pointless and actually saying, you did this wrong, just get it right the next time.

helimachoptor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

yep, your spot on.

fitness is massive issue. at leasts 4 lads said to me last night that "im f*cked already" during the game and that was in the first half. the traffic cost us last night, but all going well next week, 30 mins running before the game may help us a bit. getting the second win is crucial. sometimes people dont open up until say 20-30 mins in, which is then too late. we also tend to fade in the last 5-10 mins and this cost us bigtime last season. i would say we conceded late goals in half of our games. i reckon theres only 3 people in the squad fully fit. some of those lads last night against us, were very athletic. the microsoft lads 2 weeks ago, steam rolled us also.

and we need more talking, more vocal support and more communication. if a lad is ball watching, he needs to be told and its up to the man behind you to tell you. I will f*ck people out of it and i expect the same if im day dreaming. i takes a bigger man to admit mistakes then give guff back. there is no problem supporting each other, but if it turns into a handbags exchange of words, then its a waste to the team. but we have always been a quite team except for 2 or 3 players. this needs to change, but im not talking about people moaning, im talking about encouragement, waking people up, seeing things that need to be seen, helping each other. defensively we have been poor last season, we conceded alot of silly goals, im going to do my bit to make sure that is cut out.

i also think the keeper should be the loudest man on the field. and theres no debate on that one!!!

but remember lads, theres a massive difference between blaming somebody or pointing the fingure which is pointless and actually saying, you did this wrong, just get it right the next time.

Agreed ed, as Des was saying last night, people need to out in effort to getting and maintaining fitness, playing 60 mins once a week is not going to get you fit!
when I worked in town I was cycling 40k per day on my commute, its actually not that hard after the first couple of weeks. Now I work around the corner but still get out on the bike. But anything helps.

Again as was said last night trying to dribble the ball out of your own box will get you a bollocking and rightly so as will trying a triple reverse mid air bicycle kick when a tap in will do the job but if some tries a pass and its cut out etc then its time for encouragement.

The keeper has the best view of the defensive line and he should control it!

wolfenstein

I may be a bit late posting here but its a good discussion and I'd like to add to it. All the points made so far are fairly dead on and I'd have to agree 100%. Our fitness is poor, even tho for th level at which we're playing only a modicum of fitness would do, we don't even have that.
The same people are doing the talking all the time, no arguments, and this has to change. On a personal level I'm known as a talker but my quietest hour of the wk is when I'm playing for boards and its something I'll try to focus on going forward.
Foul throws! nuff said.
What I would like to add to all the areas mentioned already is our agression, or lack of, in the tackle. This is prob related to the fitness issue aswell as it is hard to do when ur legs are heavy and lungs are burning but we need to get stuck in for longer in games. This don't mean spectacular crunching tackles but get on the guy on the ball, stick a leg in, and do it like you want to win the ball back. Alot of time he'll get the pass away anyways but it'll be hurried, poor ball that the receiver will be less likely to take comfortably.

My 2c

sockdolage

Just to spark this again;

It was a another good run out tonight against a strong, physical team.

I think a key area in which we need to improve is ball retention. We're not fit enough to be giving the ball away and chasing the opposition for large portions of the match. We should be controlling the ball and making the opposition do the work. Too many times tonight players were receiving the ball not knowing what they were going to do with it which invariably resulted in a hoof up to the front two. Get the head up and plan ahead, anticipation is key. This works two ways... always be available to receive a pass. Your movement off the ball is as important as what you do with the ball.

We are not the strongest in the air for the most part so I think we should concentrate on a passing game. We had a few good passages tonight where we zipped the ball around although we played very narrow again tonight. They were playing three players centrally in midfield for most of the match, with one sitting slightly deeper than the other two. For a passing game to have the greatest impact we need to stretch the opposition. If we're playing with conventional wingers which I think we are (?), they really need to hug the touchline. This creates more space for our strikers as their defence is stretched laterally, creates great space for our fullbacks to push on and link up, frees up space in the centre of the pitch and it's also a lot easier to play the wingers in behind the defence when their running diagonally in from the touchline.

Communication wise I know I struggled with names tonight so hopefully this will improve as we go and people get to know each other.

Regarding fitness I know I lagged a bit tonight. Having been out of the game for such a long time I am far from anything resembling peak fitness. Our fitness levels are key to us doing well this year. We might or might not be as good technically as the other teams in our league but at least we will be up there with the best physically! This is a one of the basics of the game and one of the easiest things to improve upon.

Again foul throws seemed to come back and haunt us!

Just throwing a few thoughts out there..

homerjay2005

all valid points mark. cheers.

lads, we all know fitness is an issue, so what are we going to do about it? jules and peter both recommended the bleeps test, im all for this, so i think we should look to running this over the next week and then before the season starts. if people dont improve over the next 3 weeks, then the tests will show it. PETER, CAN YOU ORGANISE THIS? WHAT IS INVOLVED?

we have 4 weeks to get ourselves up to speed. that will cost us if we dont.

we also saw the value of set pieces last night. getting the ball in with pace is definately the way to go. I send one in the first half and it was knocked off the line. Lepo did it in the second half and it took a slight nick and went in. conor also sent in a cracking free kick that was touched over.

every time we get a free kick in the opposition half, it needs to be either a shot or hitting the 6 yard box. sending it square 5 yards is no benifit. most of the goals in astro are scored from set piececs. indeed, the cup final was played before our game last night, and there was a last minute winner from a set piece.

foul throws.

lads, i dont blame the throwers here, i blame the man thats receiving it. if you stand 3 yards away from a man, then its going to be a foul.its not physically possible to get it right when a man is so close. just something to remember. we also conceded 2 goals last night, that came from throw ins near our right corner. we did the same in the first friendly 2 weeks ago....just something else to note.

all in all, we have made good progress over the last few weeks. we are building a good squad with some very good ball players added to the team over the past 2 weeks.

fitness is definately the key and cutting out silly mistakes.

LeixlipRed

There's no excuse for a foul throw. Ever. Ffs, whoevers doing it just get it sorted. All it takes is a conscious decision to keep your feet on the ground, not step on the pitch and release behind your head. It's hardly ****ing rocket science so get it sorted.

helimachoptor

LeixlipRed wrote: »

There's no excuse for a foul throw. Ever. Ffs, whoevers doing it just get it sorted. All it takes is a conscious decision to keep your feet on the ground, not step on the pitch and release behind your head. It's hardly ****ing rocket science so get it sorted.

Agreed the full back should be taking the throws all the time unless there's a real tactical advantage to taking it quick and not waiting for the FB to get up the pitch,

Also a bit more movement on the receivers would be good!

LeixlipRed

Yeh, full backs should be taking 95% of the throw ins.

FrankGrimes

homerjay2005 wrote: »

foul throws.

lads, i dont blame the throwers here, i blame the man thats receiving it. if you stand 3 yards away from a man, then its going to be a foul.its not physically possible to get it right when a man is so close. just something to remember. we also conceded 2 goals last night, that came from throw ins near our right corner. we did the same in the first friendly 2 weeks ago....just something else to note.

Ed, there's no two ways about this one - no offence, but anyone who has been trained to a decent level should know the responsibility lies with the thrower.

If the receiver is too close, thrower should tell him. Not enough movement from the receivers? Yep, thrower's reponsibility to get them moving. Doesn't need to be roaring and shouting but there needs to be some communication from the throwers, be it a nod or a point to get one man going up the line for him or a word to see if the man inside him has enough space to take it.

To be honest, I believe most of our throwers this season just got mental blocks about the throwing and were probably thinking about it too much - they certainly rarely gave the impression that they were in control of the set piece and were not communicating with the receivers. As with everything on this team, mess up while trying your best and you'll receive only encouragement. But fail to make any noticeable effort to correct a problem like this over the course of an entire season and your teammates are entitled to put a bit of pressure on you to do a bit of homework on it.

Our leakage of possession at throw-ins and poor win rate from kick-outs are more significant than you might think as they deny us the platform to build from that we definitely have the players that can create chances if given plenty of basic possession.

homerjay2005

LeixlipRed wrote: »

There's no excuse for a foul throw. Ever. Ffs, whoevers doing it just get it sorted. All it takes is a conscious decision to keep your feet on the ground, not step on the pitch and release behind your head. It's hardly ****ing rocket science so get it sorted.

the problem is not lifting legs, its basically dropping the ball to somebody that is 3 yards or less away. it happened 3 times last night, where we just threw the ball to the nearest man. nobody should go that close to a throw in, sometimes, that person is the only option. the onus is on the receiver to give a proper option. 99 times out of a 100, if your give the ball to somebody so close, its an automatic foul throw.

Jules, if you were there last night, you would not be blaming the throwers completely. anybody can throw a ball for gods sake, but when theres no options, its panic stations and foul throws set in. saying that. we also see scenarios where opposition give them away to us too, it balances out. however, if we cut them out, its one less thing we have to deal with.

LeixlipRed

Simple solution is you don't throw it to someone so close. You tell them to move off. There's no strict time limit on throw in so what's the panic. It just sounds like poor technique to me. It's not that difficult to throw it to someone close either. You just lightly flick your wrists behind your head. Look, if people are **** at taking throw ins then they should just own up and someone else can take them. Or Des or Mikie tell them not to take them.

Baggly

homerjay2005 wrote: »

PETER, CAN YOU ORGANISE THIS? WHAT IS INVOLVED?

I can. Just have to find a hall in town. Maybe we could do it on a pitch, but im not sure how audible the bleeps would be. I would say it will take two weeks notice to organise. So if we are playing next week midweek, Maybe we could agree to do it the week after. Let me know what EVERYONE who wants to take part thinks.