Live Tells - Help

Mont

Anyone got any tips on how not to look like a total bluffing gimp when bluffing - sometimes when i bluff i know i look like it eg blushing and just generally looking weak and totally suspect

cuterob

stare down, put your tongue against the back of your teeth and keep your mouth closed everytime your in a hand..bluffing or not.. this is what tommy angelo says anyhow

Just get a routine. If you feel you give too much away then make sure on every street you do the same thing, whether you are bluffing or betting the nuts. Building a count into your game (counting to 5 before you act no matter what you are going to do) is also a good way to eliminate tells.

Cuterobs example is perfect, just do it every single time, whether bluffing or not, otherwise you become an even bigger tellbox.

DonkeyPokerTour

Deleted User wrote: »

Building a count into your game (counting to 5 before you act no matter what you are going to do) is also a good way to eliminate tells.

Please do not do this if you have a simple fold preflop. I.e. you get dealt 82 on the button with a raise, re-raise and an All in, in front of you. You Have no idea how annoying it is particularly in a game with 15-20min blinds, its just takes so much time out of the clock. I don't mind people doing it when they actually have a decision, but the gimps who take 5 seconds to act with 82 in the spot described above should be shot.

Also from my experience people who are super worried about giving away tells and try to be robotic about things usually give away twice as many tells as those who are more relaxed. I played at the same table as a "Mr Roboto" at the NSPC. He had the hat the glasses and did the chris ferguson Hands to mouth thing before acting each and every time, whether to call or fold. However you could tell he was bluffing every time because he interlocked this fingers when bluffing and just cupped one hand with the other at all other times.

So my advise is to worry less about giving away tells, because if your worried about giving them away you will give more away than usual

Regards
Ian

Obviously when you have a simple fold you don't give the count. I meant whenever you have a real decision. I am no "Mr. Roboto" but he asked for advice to cut down tells and this is a start.

DeVore

Play more
Seriously, after a while you wont care if you are bluffing as it will be just another hand.
Dont hold your breath either, its a dead give away.

DeV.

TripleAce

Please some respect for the 8 2 off hand....this is my lucky hand and it is actually pretty strong indeed.

Back to topic.

For me the most important tell is given by SB and BB when blinds go high (lets say from Level 6 onwards) and I plan to start stealing. I usually play super-tight before as I want to give a nit image (and make sure the other players notice it, usually by saying a loud "fold" everytime I fold or complaining that I am card dead) and use it at my advantage later....basically when the blinds are worth stealing I look at the way the SB and BB handle the cards after looking at them, 90% of players give away strong signals, and then i raise any unopened pot from middle /late position with any 2 cards if I feel they dont have a good hand. They still think I am a nit and fold....not noticing that I switched to "maniac gear" . I try not to make it too obvious though, the best I have done so far is to raise 4 pots in a row....funny stuff that on the last pot I actually had A-Q but met no resistance....then I usually slow down a bit not to lose credibility and try to fold my SB and concede a walk where possible (making sure the table notice how tight I am), and then start raising again.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DonkeyPokerTour

Deleted User wrote: »

Obviously when you have a simple fold you don't give the count. I meant whenever you have a real decision. I am no "Mr. Roboto" but he asked for advice to cut down tells and this is a start.

Kayroo sorry if it sounded like I was getting on to you this was not the intention. I am not saying your Mr Roboto, just an example of a player I played against!

Regards
Ian

davidgti

DeVore wrote: »

Play more
Seriously, after a while you wont care if you are bluffing as it will be just another hand.
Dont hold your breath either, its a dead give away.

DeV.

yes very well said i think when you get a guy/gal to smile there not as strong in some cases only

edit:

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Try to be doing as little as possible. Avoid card protectors or shuffling chips fiddling with ipods and sunglasses and have a spot on the table to look at and a way of placing your hands for every hand you play.

very well said Lloyd it can be very boring at the best of time's looking into that spot your talking about at the table

Tony_Montana

Mont wrote: »

Anyone got any tips on how not to look like a total bluffing gimp when bluffing - sometimes when i bluff i know i look like it eg blushing and just generally looking weak and totally suspect

Contol your heartbeat if u feel nervous practice keepin a low heartbeat cas its a great tell on a player

Mr.Plough

lol how can you control your heartbeat?

Tony_Montana

Mr.Plough wrote: »

lol how can you control your heartbeat?

Hehe its quiet difficult. Jus practice your breathing and your heartbeat will slow down. Takes plenty of practice though! Still trying to master it

Jesus Wept

Pacemaker?

Lazare

Mr.Plough wrote: »

lol how can you control your heartbeat?

Jumping from a bridge is one way.


In fact after reading post #7, I think I'll go and control my own heartbeat.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Tony_Montana

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yeah lol.

Some people will have an uncontrollable surge of adrenaline either when they are dealt a great hand preflop or are being sweated in a big pot (either with the nuts or on a stonecolder). There isn't a whole lot you can do to stop this if you are prone to it. However, your standard pose should incorporate hiding your neck and you should wear loose fitting tops. At the end of the day eradication of all tells will be impossible for most people. Just try to get rid of really obvious ones and concentrate on playing good and you'll be winning live without too much hassle.

Exactly, couldn't of said it better ;)You should wear loose fit tops but also cover your neck. cas thats were you can see the heartbeat. I have made a lot of calls because of this tell to either find out the were stone cold bluffing or had the nuts. So you have to figure out from there play if the are bluffing or have a monster

TripleAce

Tony_Montana wrote: »

Contol your heartbeat if u feel nervous practice keepin a low heartbeat cas its a great tell on a player

LOL

I guess he needs to check with his doctor first!!!

big_iain

A few things i would recommend after 4 years live play.

1> Never look at your cards until it is your turn. When I first started, I would be very keen and look at them straight away. If you have AA then it is hard to not give it away. Without experience, you almost always get excited, you will always act differently. I can always sense when an newb has aces. It is as if something has changed from the normal way he plays hand. Just call me maverick.

2> I agree with luckylloyd but would add that you have to do that every hand where you put a bet in. Don't look serious just for the big hands.

3> One of the top players out of Galway once told me to pick a comfortable position and train yourself to go into that position every time you play a hand.

4> Other tells could be obviously counting the pot on a draw to work out your pot odds. Try and keep up with the play.

5> Starting talking before you bet ie. Unusual speech play. You will have a big hand--Always

6> Try to act and take your turn at the same pace every hand. Snap calls or raises give can give away a lot of information. If you have the nuts, Then slow yourself down. Check and recheck. call at your usual speed. If there are any other players still to act they may put more chips in too. Never rush.

7> Wear dark glasses. You can tell with some people exactly what they have hit. They tend to look at the card they hit last before some other action. Long stare at the cards in the middle could mean they have missed and are working out there outs for draws.

8> Looking down at your chips after the flop when it is not your turn to act. give away. (somepeople do this deliberately when they are drawing from a late position to get a free card. )

9> Never play out of turn. Apart from being annoying your all-in move could prevent someone in the middle still to play, not to put in a few thousand chips. I once did this with just 3 players left. I won the pot against one player for his chips but found out later that the guy in the middle was going in with Top pair top kicker. I could have won the tournament there and then with my trip 9's. I Let the middle opponent keep his chips and he eventually he beat me out of the win.

10> When you are down to two players in a hand and you have acted. If your opponent starts talking to you. He is trying to get a read. Just don't say anything. Ignore him until the hand is over. There is no rule that says you have to answer him. You can as a new player give a lot away by your answer. Shut it and stay in your comfortable position. If he mentions what hands you could have do not react to this. Stay in your position and keep it shut. Someone once did this trying to make me think they had two pair. board was kqX rainbow, i had AKo. After i reraised, they were still saying out loud what i could have had. By them saying i could have trip K's or trip X's implies they have two pair like KQ or KX. They then re-raised me. Me being mad i went all-in over the top. They had JT, on just a str8 draw and was trying to steal. They hit an Ace on the river, and i was out. But, i learnt a valuable lesson about speech play. Cost me €95 like, donations accepted.:).


Now then. I do not claim to be an expert. but use these as a basis to improve your table body behavior and use it to work out what your opponents could be doing and their body behaviors.

Remember, remember, how you behaved in a big pot and how your opponents behaved in a big pot. This will help you make the difficult decisions in later hands.

Russh

If you held your breath against me...You'd die before I made my decision.....!

Very rarely have I seen a guy smile while not holding the nearly nuts...!

Convince yourself you have a monster and keep telling yourself this when your opponent is making their decision...(I never bluff...but I think this is what I'd do...)...

Try to put yourself in a place where your in a relaxed state of mind...(shoreline in Doolin...beach in wherever...etc..)...or just try drugs...!

nice1franko

wear a berka

semibluff

Mr.Plough wrote: »

lol how can you control your heartbeat?

Tony_Montana wrote: »

Hehe its quiet difficult. Jus practice your breathing and your heartbeat will slow down. Takes plenty of practice though! Still trying to master it

you'l find that your heartbeat rises alot when your bluffing.
when this happens, take deep breaths, like you see when a lady is practising for pregnancy. this will slow down your heart beat alot also and make your more relaxed.

also by standing up it helps your lungs breath easier.

By doing the two of these things, it should really help eliminate this particular physical tell

cuterob

Russh wrote: »

(I never bluff...

or just try drugs...!

you serious? you never bluff?

and yea like russh said just take drugs...i dont know if it will help your game or anything but just take them anyway..go for it

TommyGunne

The pulse thing is actually massive. It is because of not being able to control your pulse that you fumble chips, can't talk properly etc etc etc. Deep breaths really help. Having a small understanding of meditation really helps as well. It helps you gain a little more control over yourself.

Devs advice is the other bit that stands out. If you get used to playing and are comfortable with it you won't be nervous/give away tells half as much. I've found this for sure. Its not even as much to do with maintaining the same routine (even though it helps to calm you down and disguise) as much as getting used to the game and the swings and knowing its only a stack so whatever.

When you've lost hundreds of stacks at tables playing one more doesn't feel any different.

Russh

cuterob wrote: »

you serious? you never bluff?

Yep...tried it once Rob...didn't like it....

For the Op....

Start off by stealing blinds from Button...when folded to you...try not looking at your cards..(pretend to..)...keep trying small bluffs....you'll soon get used to the feeling and it'll become second nature.....

cuterob

Russh wrote: »

Yep...tried it once Rob...didn't like it....

.

lol

Mr.Plough

if you have a bag of walkers sensations, ensure that if you eat one when you have the nuts you eat one when you're bluffing to balance the range ya know

newbie2

Russh wrote: »

or just try drugs...!

+1

Jesus Wept

Russh wrote: »

Yep...tried it once Rob...didn't like it....

You're dead right. It's dishonest.

cuterob

The-Rigger wrote: »

You're dead right. It's dishonest.

...and not in the spirit of things at all.

pocketdooz

semibluff wrote: »

you'l find that your heartbeat rises alot when your bluffing.
when this happens, take deep breaths, like you see when a lady is practising for pregnancy. this will slow down your heart beat alot also and make your more relaxed.

also by standing up it helps your lungs breath easier.

By doing the two of these things, it should really help eliminate this particular physical tell

So next time anyone sees me in the Fitz and I stand up at the table; and start taking deep breaths like a pregnant woman before betting . . .

You'll know I'm bluffing ! Not sure if this will work ??

CHD

pocketdooz wrote: »

So next time anyone sees me in the Fitz and I stand up at the table; and start taking deep breaths like a pregnant woman before betting . . .

You'll know I'm bluffing ! Not sure if this will work ??

Could be effective, try it.

OP you should buy this http://www.amazon.com/Phil-Hellmuth-Presents-Read-Reap/dp/0061198595 its quite good.

pocketdooz

CHD wrote: »

Could be effective, try it.

OP you should buy this http://www.amazon.com/Phil-Hellmuth-Presents-Read-Reap/dp/0061198595 its quite good.

I will try it this Thursday night at the €100 double chance

I hope I don't get barred for acting like a nut ! ? ! ?

CHD

pocketdooz wrote: »

I will try it this Thursday night at the €100 double chance

I hope I don't get barred for acting like a nut ! ? ! ?

just tell them your pregnant.

semibluff

pocketdooz wrote: »

So next time anyone sees me in the Fitz and I stand up at the table; and start taking deep breaths like a pregnant woman before betting . . .

You'll know I'm bluffing ! Not sure if this will work ??

do it after you bet, otherwise its just stupid

Theresalwaysone

Mr.Plough wrote: »

if you have a bag of walkers sensations, ensure that if you eat one when you have the nuts you eat one when you're bluffing to balance the range ya know

lol, not enough love for this.

yeah-buddy

if they piss their pants that means their excited so they defo have a good hand

Blip

semibluff wrote: »

you'l find that your heartbeat rises alot when your bluffing.
when this happens, take deep breaths, like you see when a lady is practising for pregnancy. this will slow down your heart beat alot also and make your more relaxed.

also by standing up it helps your lungs breath easier.

By doing the two of these things, it should really help eliminate this particular physical tell

They alway take deep breaths when their practising for pregnancy with me;).........its when their giving birth I have a problem with my breathing.

eddiehead

A lot of good advice in this thread, DeV, Lloyd and big iain in particular, but has it been mentioned how unreliable these tells can be? Im referring to the ones that a player has direct control over like speech or looking at hole cards or counting the pot during a hand. I know that I often pretend im counting up the pot if im trying to convince an opponent Im on a draw or weaker than I actually am, it also gives me more time to think about what to do on the next street before the card is dealt, or just think about my opponents possible holdings. There are other examples, this is just one.

With better players Id try stick to things like pulse and deep breathing, these can only be controlled to an extent, no matter how smart you are. I used to have a sure tell on a guy whose temple would pulse as his heart rate raised, but he never spoke, moved, or gave away information when you'd stare at him or try induce conversation.

When dealing with inexperienced players however, they can be invaluble. In last years IO, I found myself shortstacked late in day 2, but I stole the blinds 3/4 orbits in a row on one particular guys BB because every time he got dealt his cards he would look at them straight away, if they were bad he would push them away slightly, subconsciously folding before his turn.

Overall its just best to do as little as possible, try chewing gum, I find it helps prevent me from twitching when im trying to stay still. If your anxious, adrenaline forces you to move, so if you are chewing rather than playing with cards or chips you'll give less away, I do anyway:D

mewso

big_iain wrote: »

A few things i would recommend after 4 years live play.

1> Never look at your cards until it is your turn. When I first started, I would be very keen and look at them straight away. If you have AA then it is hard to not give it away. Without experience, you almost always get excited, you will always act differently. I can always sense when an newb has aces. It is as if something has changed from the normal way he plays hand. Just call me maverick.

I've always wondered about the waiting your turn to look at your cards. In fact it seems the general wisdom that only fish look at them immediately. I honestly believe it doesn't really matter particularly if you have enough experience. In fact an inexperienced player who waits his turn to look at his cards will have every players eyes on him at that moment and may give away more. Looking at them straight away means no eyes will be on you and you can take some extra time to decide what to do while observing players and waiting for your turn to act. I think the pros and cons even out here.

cuterob

Blip wrote: »

They alway take deep breaths when their practising for pregnancy with me;).........its when their giving birth I have a problem with my breathing.

ionapaul

Remember that when you play live, a lot of players will stare at you, perhaps for minutes, but don't know what to look for and are just imitating what they see on TV trying to look cool. I'd estimate that a very, very small fraction of live players in Ireland know what to look for or could even begin to guess if they're being shown a false tell versus a real one. If an inexperienced player is staring at me and I could be bothered, I'd sometimes throw out a small false tell and hope it affects his or her decision. Otherwise I think the best standard line is to pick your spot on the table, lower your eyes to focus on it and modulate your breathing - I'd only really be very worried about giving off tells if I played in a tournament where the stakes 'mattered' to me and thought I was up against superior opponents.

One thing I do think that helps is looking at inexperienced players' hands before action gets to them - many players indicate their intentions for when action gets to them by getting the cards ready to muck or separating their stack in order to get a bet together. Obviously one way to get around this is to always use a card protector and don't make any move to muck until action gets to you and not to start counting out your chips until action is on you (I always try to verbalise my betting and calling and don't make a move until after I have spoken).

Slash/ED

musician wrote: »

I've always wondered about the waiting your turn to look at your cards. In fact it seems the general wisdom that only fish look at them immediately. I honestly believe it doesn't really matter particularly if you have enough experience. In fact an inexperienced player who waits his turn to look at his cards will have every players eyes on him at that moment and may give away more. Looking at them straight away means no eyes will be on you and you can take some extra time to decide what to do while observing players and waiting for your turn to act. I think the pros and cons even out here.

I always look at my cards only when it's my turn but this isn't so much for tells but just so my cards don't skew my thought process. When it's late in a tournament thats exclusively pre flop polay I like to see what the actions been before me and see if a good spot for a steal presents itself, and not knowing how bad my hand is at this point means im more open to take advantage of these spots if that makes sense. Conversely if there's alot of action before me I give myself a calling range, so I don't see KQs, decide I'm going to play it and not fully take in the action, if that makes sense. It's also fun when you decide "this is a good spot to squeeze" and then look down at aces. And it turns out you were wrong.

It also helps in the blinds not giving away how easy or hand your blind will be to steal before the action gets round to you.

cuterob

yea i also like to look at my cards when it's my turn because i need to know what they are so i can commence with the game and make one of these decisions: call/muck/raise.. i hope this helps the OP

semibluff

one of the main cons of looking at your cards the second they are dealt to you is that you dont get to keep your eyes on everyone else at the table. apart from this, there is no diff. You may miss the novice repositioning in a seat, or whatever it may be.

if u cant watch others view der cards aswell as view yours b4 action is on you, surely best of both worlds

hotspur

I have no interest in putting on a poker face at the table because it ruins my enjoyment of the game somewhat. To counter this I have a range of mannerism which are pretty random such that one cannot put a read on me because I act erratically in respect of handling chips, talking, looking etc. This suits me better and it also allows me to give off false tells to idiots. And I agree with Dev, it makes no big difference to me if I'm bluffing or betting the nuts, if you are sufficiently rolled for your game then no hand should matter all that much to you.

I have difficulty not smiling or breaking out laughing when someone stares me down and I quite regularly stick my tongue out at them. I find it funny because they are usually morons who do it and I know full well they haven't got a notion what they are looking for or even how my confidence relates to their equity. I mean I tell people what I have sometimes and they still make a bad call.

As for when to look at your cards I tend to look at them in between 1st getting them and it being on me. Though I admit I play my cards blind probably more than 99.99% of players.

Requiem4adream

musician wrote: »

I've always wondered about the waiting your turn to look at your cards. In fact it seems the general wisdom that only fish look at them immediately. I honestly believe it doesn't really matter particularly if you have enough experience. In fact an inexperienced player who waits his turn to look at his cards will have every players eyes on him at that moment and may give away more. Looking at them straight away means no eyes will be on you and you can take some extra time to decide what to do while observing players and waiting for your turn to act. I think the pros and cons even out here.

Agree with this - i dont play much live but depending on my mood i might insta-look at them or wait. As for missing out on what others are doing, picking up facial tells etc i think it's massively over-rated, i wouldnt even have a clue what i'm looking for in the first place.

For an inexperienced player i'd recommend looking at them right away in early positions, just gives ya a bit of extra time to formulate a p.o.a without 8 eagle eyes staring at ya... Although like i said i doubt most of them have a clue what they're looking for either :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

i remember when i first made the transition from live to online, occasionally when faced with a tough decision i found myself staring intently at the guys avatar, never got anything out of the ****ers though.

cooker3

So when you see someone's pulse racing they have a very polarised range. Amirite?

mormank

lol. i have loads of tells. but only more experienced players can see them, or so im told anyway. ive never been one for tryin to conceal my hand but i find that if i have the nuts i talk alot...