Workout Nutrition - Phenylalanine?

Fnz

Advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'm an ectomorph looking to bulk up. I'm following the advice of nutritionalist John Berardi. He recommends 'pre', 'during' and 'post' -workout drinks made up of the following:

Carbohydrate: 0.8 g/kg
Protein: 0.4 g/kg (hydrolyzed whey)

3-5g of BCAAs
3g of Glutamine
3-5g of Phenylalanine

It works out that, on lifting days, I'd be consuming between 9 - 11g of phenylalanine. It doesn't seem to be the most popular supplement going by web stores. I've read one or two negatively-toned articles about it:

Doses in excess of 5,000 mg a day may be toxic and can cause nerve damage.

... but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing so was wondering if anyone here could offer a learned opinion on it. Should I ignore the phenylalanine? Berardi doesn't go into any detail regarding its benefits, except to say that the above formula is the best combination of amino acids and protein to promote an insulin response. I know it can be converted to L-tyrosine which seems to be a more popular supplement (Berardi doesn't rate tyrosine particularly highly).


I'm considering just getting Optimum Nutrition's Gold Standard 100% Whey Protein along with some carbohydrate powder and ignoring the phenylalnine component completely. It (ON's 100%) includes “over 4 grams of glutamine and glutamine precursors as well as 5 grams of BCAAs (leucine, isoleucine, and valine) in each scoop”. One scoop contains roughly the right amount of protein for my weight. Could the quality of the BCAAs be lacking in any way? I heard it might be a good idea to add extra BCAAs to ON's mix.

Hanley

I REALLY think you're overthinking it.

Out of interest, what are you stats??

-Height
-Weight
-BF%
-Squat, bench, deadlift

ronbyrne2005

Unless you are a professional bodybuilder/athlete don't worry about highly technical things like this and if you are a professional/serious athlete then a professional nutritionist would be required. Get the basics right and you will see plenty of gains before you ever have to consider tweaking expensive supplements to such a degree. Get good quality protein from food and powders and eat a clean diet. Consuming carbs in your post workout drink will give you a sufficient insulin response for now.

Fnz

Thanks for your replies.

Hanley wrote: »

I REALLY think you're overthinking it.

Not to be rude but, going by your sig, I'm guessing you feel this way about a lot of posters - sweating the small stuff when they should just be getting on with it? I'm only starting off and in order to "get on with it" have chosen to mostly follow the advice from a book (Scrawny To Brawny) in which Berardi handles the nutrition portion.

Fair enough about my "quality of the BCAAs" query but considering the quote I included in my above post, along with Berardi's recommended 9-11g per lifting day intake of phenylalanine, I definately thought it best to find out more info on that supplement. I don't want to consume any substance in dangerous quantities. From what I've read on boards.ie, I've heard mention of other amino acids when people talk workout shakes... but not phenylalanine.

So I'm guessing people feel I could easily leave out the phenylalanine and not be any the worse for it?

Hanley wrote: »

Out of interest, what are you stats??

-Height
-Weight
-BF%
-Squat, bench, deadlift

I've just joined a gym and am only starting off weight traing with the aim of hypertrophy and increased strength. I'm going to do a 2 - 4 week corrective phase before doing any "proper" lifting.

Height: 6'1"
Weight: 60 kg
BF%: 20 (according to home equipment)

Hanley

Fnz wrote: »

Thanks for your replies.


Not to be rude but, going by your sig, I'm guessing you feel this way about a lot of posters - sweating the small stuff when they should just be getting on with it? I'm only starting off and in order to "get on with it" have chosen to mostly follow the advice from a book (Scrawny To Brawny) in which Berardi handles the nutrition portion.

Fair enough about my "quality of the BCAAs" query but considering the quote I included in my above post, along with Berardi's recommended 9-11g per lifting day intake of phenylalanine, I definately thought it best to find out more info on that supplement. I don't want to consume any substance in dangerous quantities. From what I've read on boards.ie, I've heard mention of other amino acids when people talk workout shakes... but not phenylalanine.

So I'm guessing people feel I could easily leave out the phenylalanine and not be any the worse for it?



I've just joined a gym and am only starting off weight traing with the aim of hypertrophy and increased strength. I'm going to do a 2 - 4 week corrective phase before doing any "proper" lifting.

Height: 6'1"
Weight: 60 kg
BF%: 20 (according to home equipment)

Tbh, you're right. I DO think people sweat the little stuff too much. You're 60kg and 6'1".... you don't need to be worrying about that stuff yet. Hell, you'll probably NEVER need to worry about it. We've all been where you are, and with the benefit of hindsight I imagine anyone who's added a serious amount of muscle to their frame will tell you to stop worrying about that sorta stuff. What you need to be concerned with is food (yes, just food!!), learning good form, and training to get stronger. Spent a year of two doing that and working hard and you'll have made some serious changes to your body.

Measuring out exact quantities of phenylalanine is going to do nothing to help. Yes, I said nothing!!!! JB always seems to have these wacky ideas about what you HAVE to do to get bigger and stronger, I've never really bought into alot of his stuff because it has always seemed so over complicated and unnecessary.

Fnz

Cheers, Hanley, I appreciate the input. Just something I'm not sure about; could you clarify what you mean here:

Hanley wrote:

you don't need to be worrying about that stuff yet. Hell, you'll probably NEVER need to worry about it. We've all been where you are, and with the benefit of hindsight I imagine anyone who's added a serious amount of muscle to their frame will tell you to stop worrying about that sorta stuff. What you need to be concerned with is food (yes, just food!!)

Are you just saying I don't need to worry about the phenylalanine... or do you mean I shouldn't be bothering with supplements at all? I would have thought that a slim person with high metabolism, such as myself, would want both regular food and supplemental shakes. Otherwise the effort put in at the gym is being, somewhat, wasted?

Tbh I am a lazy guy at heart just want everything working together in the most effecient way possibly. So that, of course, means eating the right food more often. I don't particularly enjoy 'eating' (don't comfort eat) so supplementing my diet with liquid meals will make the bulking-up process easier.

Thanks again.

Hanley

Fnz wrote: »

Are you just saying I don't need to worry about the phenylalanine... or do you mean I shouldn't be bothering with supplements at all? I would have thought that a slim person with high metabolism, such as myself, would want both regular food and supplemental shakes. Otherwise the effort put in at the gym is being, somewhat, wasted?

Worry about calories. Do what you need to do to keep them high enough to gain. This might mean all food (if you can stomach it) or you might have to supplement with shakes.

Tbh I am a lazy guy at heart just want everything working together in the most effecient way possibly. So that, of course, means eating the right food more often. I don't particularly enjoy 'eating' (don't comfort eat) so supplementing my diet with liquid meals will make the bulking-up process easier.

Thanks again.

The "lazy guy" comment is one a lot of people are familiar with. Here's the problem tho... You might think that doing all the micro calculations on things like Phenylalanine is going to help, but I've always seen it as a manifestation of laziness (my thinking being - it's easier to think about small things than it is to put in the hard work in the gym and at the kitchen too).

So yeah, if you need extra caloires, then drink away. Don't forget about milk too.

Fnz

Hanley wrote: »

The "lazy guy" comment is one a lot of people are familiar with. Here's the problem tho... You might think that doing all the micro calculations on things like Phenylalanine is going to help, but I've always seen it as a manifestation of laziness (my thinking being - it's easier to think about small things than it is to put in the hard work in the gym and at the kitchen too).

I see where you're coming from there. I was appoaching it from "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail" direction. I want to be on the 'over-prepared' side of things - in case of any surprises that might have otherwise affected my ability to continue to train/eat well. Yes, this often means I take longer to 'get going'.

It's not that I think phenylalanine is the be all end all - more that I was curious about Berardi's recommendation of a substance that doesn't seem all that popular. If anyone knew more about its benefits/toxicity, I was hoping they would chime in here before I decide whether to include some in my suplement order. I was also concerned that he was suggesting use of dangerous quantities of the stuff.

As someone once said though:

Hanley wrote: »

I honestly think that when it comes down to it, the best supplement is going to be the one you beleive the most in. Regardless of how relatively good it is.

Believing in your supplements is sure to give you a boost alright. I'm still unsure of the benefits of phenylalanine but Berardi's reasoning seemed sound throughout the rest of the book so I will probably meet him halfway on this one.

Cheers.

rubadub

Fnz wrote: »

Height: 6'1"
Weight: 60 kg
BF%: 20 (according to home equipment)

Best not use that BF% machine again, I presume it is a handheld or stand on job. They are brutal, a self proclaimed ectomorph 6ft1" guy under 9.5stone is not going to be 20%BF