Chance of a medal at the Olympics for the Irish?

Andyfbt

Think boxing is our best chance of a medal. I was at the stadium for the Irish finals qualifiers as my girlfriends cousin was fighting John Joe Joyce. Both were meant to be primed for 2012 but slipped into the final for 2008 and John Joe Joyce was brilliant. The fight had to be stopped. Then he went on to qualify with gold in the qualifiers as far as I recall. Most people are saying Darren Sutherland is probably our best chance but I reckon we could all be talking about Joyce come the end of the olympics

cowzerp

well if sutherland was the 1 you went to watch im sure thats how you would feel instead!
i hope he does well, if he medals then thats great, same applies to all of our fighters, anyone could perform and make a name for themselves..

Andyfbt

oh totally agree. I'll be supporting them all equally.

cowzerp

Good man..

MBC

Hope they all do well but i reckon our best chance will be either Nevin or Egan.

walshb

I have always maintained that in the Games there is NO such thing as an easy or favourable draw, however, I think if our lads can avoid the the big boys (Cuba, US, Russia and Russian states), then they have a decent chance to maybe get to the medal stages and fight for a medal. Style wise, I would bet on maybe Nevin to do best. He has the style suited for the computers and is very very hard to pin down and hit I hear!

HollowMan

I have Nevin backed for a medal at 12/1 with Ladbrokes since the week before Pescara. I'm confident he'll do it, the only Irish boxer to qualify at the first chance.

Big Ears

I hoping rather than expecting us to medal, the standard is so high that we'd need one of our fighters to get a really good draw and that that fighter is the most on form in the squad .

Sutherland and Egan are genuine top 10 fighter in their weightclass but even still , a tough draw or a poor performance and their gone in their first fight .

I'd love to see one of the lads do it but I'm not expecting it .

alanceltic

HollowMan wrote: »

I have Nevin backed for a medal at 12/1 with Ladbrokes since the week before Pescara. I'm confident he'll do it, the only Irish boxer to qualify at the first chance.

Nice job, id like a piece of that action!!!! 12-1 for medalling is a great bet for who is IMO our best prospect of getting anywhere near the podium in any code

j.griff

i think paddy barnes has a good chance of winning a medal.

yomchi

Hopefully they all do great. My money's on Nevin or Egan, depending on the draw. I reckon Nevin is in with the best chance, he's on top form and qualified in style.

sligobhoy67

j.griff wrote: »

i think paddy barnes has a good chance of winning a medal.

jesus, its about time someone mentioned Paddy. Only went out in the last 8 of the worlds against Zou Shimming of China who went on to win gold and is a hot favourite to win gold in Beiijing.

If Paddy can avoid Zou then I think he has a very gold chance.

Apart from that the obvious choice would be our captain Kenny Egan because of his experience and quality.

But like Bigs Ears I live more inhope than expectation.

Finally, go on lads!!!!!!!!!!!!! (can ya tell I'm really excited to see them fighting)

MBC

Anyone any idea when the boxing starts in Beijing?

megadodge

i think paddy barnes has a good chance of winning a medal

Lads, I am fairly sure that when he qualified for the Olympics it was mentioned in the media that he lost his first TWELVE fights.

Did anyone else hear of that or can anybody verify it ?

It's some reflection on his character if he did !

Big Ears

MBC wrote: »

Anyone any idea when the boxing starts in Beijing?

9th August, it runs rill the 24th . So basically there is boxing on for the whole of the Olympics .

cowzerp

megadodge wrote: »

Lads, I am fairly sure that when he qualified for the Olympics it was mentioned in the media that he lost his first TWELVE fights.

Did anyone else hear of that or can anybody verify it ?

It's some reflection on his character if he did !

Cant say i did, he must of been rubbish!!

if its true fair play to him for turning it around..

j.griff

megadodge wrote: »

Lads, I am fairly sure that when he qualified for the Olympics it was mentioned in the media that he lost his first TWELVE fights.

Did anyone else hear of that or can anybody verify it ?

It's some reflection on his character if he did !

yes its true paddy did lose his first twelve fights, i'm sure he will tell you that himself, however the little fella has come along way since then, i think thats why i and i am sure many others have alot of respect for him, the guy never gave up he just got better and better and here he is today in the olympics.

i hope all our boys do well, the best of luck to them all.

walshb

Very unusual that, but who is to say that each bout
wasn't a razor thin decision loss against very
good opposition or lads that went on to win
Irish titles. Bottom line is that Paddy went
all the way to the TOP and progressed
from boy to man. That's the real TEST

Hero Of College

It must be the greatest feeling ever, to go to the Olimps as a boxer, and come back with a Gold. I know this much, 90% of the Olimps is PURE BOLLIX. They are all on gear, except the fighters.

megadodge

Just to clear up any misunderstanding, as I think one or two of the replies are suggesting I'm putting him down, I have nothing but massive admiration for anybody who can come back from crazy statistics like that.

As I said he must have some character, cos that amount of losses must have been demoralising to say the least.

yomchi

Good article in the Indo today, page 58.

theheartofalion

Our boxers are our best chance of a medal in the Olympics full stop. If things work out there could be a few gold medals.

Just goes to show if you put the right structures in place (High Performance Programme) you will reap the rewards.

Fair play for getting the lads qualified and I think Nevin coz hes so young and carefree and aiming more for 2012 could win gold.

I'm not involved in boxing but I'm so proud of the lads

Hero Of College

theheartofalion wrote: »

Our boxers are our best chance of a medal in the Olympics full stop. If things work out there could be a few gold medals.

Just goes to show if you put the right structures in place (High Performance Programme) you will reap the rewards.

Fair play for getting the lads qualified and I think Nevin coz hes so young and carefree and aiming more for 2012 could win gold.

I'm not involved in boxing but I'm so proud of the lads

They always have been.

Our last legit Gold was in Barcelona.

Most people in this country JUST DON'T GET IT....Carruth BEAT A CUBAN for the Gold Medal.

They don't know what that means. Its the absolute PINNACLE of Olympic Excellence.

Splashy Splashy, My Little Pony.......all bollox.

Beating a Cuban is where it is at.

madds

Hero Of College wrote: »

Splashy Splashy, My Little Pony.......all bollox.

Big Ears

theheartofalion wrote: »

Our boxers are our best chance of a medal in the Olympics full stop. If things work out there could be a few gold medals.

If we get one, it would be a massive, massive shock . Any of our fighters medaling at all would be a mild upset .

http://www.ababoxing.com/mens world rankings june08.html
http://www.ababoxing.com/mens european rankings june08.html

There is an independent website which ranks amateur fighters, some rankings are a bit off because they rate fighters at the last weight they competed at rather than what they normally compete at so the likes of Zou Shiming is rated at Flyweight instead of Light-Flyweight and Frankie Gavin is ranked at Light-Welterweight instead of Lightweight . IMO they do a pretty good job on the rankings .

Paddy Barnes: 11th in the World and 6th in Europe . However Zou Shiming(#1 Flyweight), Loius Yanez(#6 Flyweight), Georgiy Chygayev(#9 Flyweight) and Rafikjon Sultonov(#17 Flyweight) are all fighters who have qualified at Light-Flyweight and are in the Flyweight top 20 .

Barnes lost to Zou Shiming 22-8 in the World championships which Shiming won . Shiming is favourite for the gold medal . He also lost to Hungarian Pal Bedak(#4 Light-Flyweight) 23-8 in the EU Championships .

Bedak is a good fighter though winning bronze at the European Championships in 04 and Silver at the World's in 05 aswell , it took him until the 2nd qualifiers to get through as he lost to the Russian David Ayrapetyan(#2 Light-Flyweight) at both the World Championships and the European Qualifiers . Pal won the 2nd qualifiers .

None of the 3 fighters Barnes bet in the World Championships are going to the Olympics, he's fairly unproven and the only two times he's stepped up he was beaten very clearly, albeit by two very good fighters .
He is lucky that the Cuban at his weight isn't that strong, but if he meets
Barnes was also beaten by Nordine Oubaali in the 2007 EU's on a cut . Oubaali was beaten by Bedak Pal on a cut .

If Barnes avoids Zou Shiming, David Ayrapetyan, Pal Bedak, Luis Yanez and Harry Tañamor before the quarter finals he may have a chance of a medal .
But even then he'll still probably have to beat one of them to get a Bronze which is a very tall order . That's only the fighters you'd strongly favour over him there are a few more which would be favourites over him too .
He has a very tough task .

John Joe Nevin Bantamweight: not ranked in the World and 13th in Europe, the rankings shouldn't scare us too much he's only 18 and hasn't been a senior that long . He lost to Luis Yanez in the 2006 World junior Championships by a narrow margin . He qualified through the first European qualifier and beat Detelin Dalakliev(#7 World, #5 Europe) and Vyacheslav Goyan(#11 World, 7th Europe), Goyan himself had only just beat Rustam Rachimov(#6 World, #4 Europe) .

6 our of the 8th European boxers at Bantamweight in the Olympics were at that qualifier, the other two Joe Murray(Bronze WC) and Sergey Vodopyanov(Gold WC) qualified through the World Championships .

The Cuban at the weight doesn't have much international experience due yo Guillermo Rigondeux's longtime position as not only the best Cuban Bantamweight but probably the best Cuban amateur for the past 8 years but he does hold wins over Yan Barthelemy(Oylmpic and World Championship Gold medal winner at Light-Flyweight), Yuriorkis Gamboa(Olympic Gold medal winner at Flyweight and Bronze at the WC's at Featherweight) .

With a good draw he's in with a shout, but there are some very good fighters at this weight . There is no real stand out star at Bantamweight, the Russian is obviously the best but is beatable as is pretty much everyone . The problem comes for Nevin in that every single fight will be very difficult, there are no gimmes at Bantam . He's definitely got a much better chance than Barnes though .

John Joe Joyce Light-Welterweight(#11 Europe), very inexperienced and in a tough weight class . He was beaten in the EU Championships by Gyula Kate 23-7 . Kate has won Bronze in the World Championships at Lightweight and has two Bronze medals from European Championships at Light-Welterweight . Kate also beat John 32-17 in the World Championships .
On his way to winning the Second European qualifier Joyce only won his quarter final match up on count back to an unheralded Greek .
It's horrible to say but if you were to pick a guy that definitely won't win a medal it's Joyce . He may progress a round or two if he can avoid being matched with a European or an Asian, the Americans(continent not just US) aren't that strong and the Africans seem especially weak at this weight .

Darren Sutherland-Middleweight(#8 World, #3 Europe), very experienced and has had much tougher domestic competition than the others to think about with Darren O'Neil constantly pushing him . Sutherland has beat Konstantin Buga, James Degale(twice), Andranik Hakobyan and Jean-Mickaël Raymond . Alfonso Blanco(Silver in the last WC) upset Sutherland 20-13 in the last 16 bout , but was comprehensively beaten by a very good Russian in the final . Sutherland lost 23-22 to Degale in the first Qualifiers, but beat him 22-16 in the EU Championships(like he had done a year previously)

Darren O'Neil himself has a win over Buga and was a quarter-finalist in the 2006 European Championships , so beating him in the national Championships was a good win . Sutherland is a very inconsistent fighter, but should he perform to potential he has a chance at medaling, although I wouldn't be putting money on him .


Ken Egan-Light-Heavyweight(#4 World, #2 Europe), European Championship Bronze medal winner(lost to the overall winner), 7 time national champion and 3 time EU CHampionships Gold medal winner(aswell as a silver and a bronze) . In the World CHampionships he beat Julius Jackson who has qualified for the Olympics and is the son of the explosive hitting Julian Jackson . He beat Pan-Am games Bronze medalist Julio Castillo after that and then lost to Mario Sivolija of Croatia 17-9 in the last 16, who himself was beaten 17-6 by the eventual winner .

He lost 17-13 to Bulgarian Ramazan Magomedov in the first qualifiers at the semi-final stage . Magomendov didn't compete in the final .

Egan beat English Tony Jeffries in the final of the EU Championships, Jeffries had beaten Magomendov in the World Championships and Pan-Am Bronze medalist Christopher Downs .

Egan is the most experienced in the squad but even for him getting a medal would be a tough ask .


I know this isn't the most coherent of posts but it paints a picture of what our chances are really like . Egan, Sutherland or Nevin may get a Bronze or possibly if we're lucky nick a Silver . But only one of them will do it at the very most .

I don't mean to be defeatist, I still expect every one of these guys to perform to their absolute maximum ability and if any of them lose to a fighter they shouldn't I will be very disappointed . But remember Lee was a better prospect then any of them in 04 and he lost in the second round to a Cameroon fighter.........okay he was robbed because the other guy only landed about 6/7 punches that weren't slaps(final score 27-27) but he lost none the less . How the **** does countback work in a boxing contest btw

In 2012 Nevin and Barnes will be real prospects for medals, Joyce will have hopefully improved too along with several other of our fighters I think we could be in an even better position in 4 years time .

But to suspect we'll not only take 1 Gold, but several ?, that's not being realistic and while we need high expectations of our boxers we need realistic expectations too .

1 Bronze, 1 losing semi-finalists, 2 quarter finalists and a last 16 would be a good performance from the team .

walshb

I have heard from a good source that the Cuban team are not bringing a lot of their best.
I was told that the 2nd and third string guys are going to the games. Still formidable; but a little breather for the rest of the world

The Cuban bantam sounds tough. Anyone who beats Gamboa and Barthelemy have to be top class

akindoc

Sutherland has the best chance IMO.

COME ON DARREN!!!!!

Dodge

walshb wrote: »

I have heard from a good source that the Cuban team are not bringing a lot of their best.

Its no surprise who they're bringing as the the fighters who qualified are the fighters going. UNlike previous olympics, no automatic sports. I think there's 1/2 weight categories without Cubans as they boycotted the world championships in Chicago and had to go through the continental rounds.

Bigs ears sad pretty much everything there is say. I've a far bigger interest in the amateur game. Unlike some howver I feel the draw is critical. I've no dount Sutherland and Egan have genuine chances but both need to get a win under the belt early on. I understand that Silakh, the Ukrainian who beat Egan at the 2006 European championships has been caught doping and has been pulled. A greek boxer has taken his place

jayroyal

Nevin is a best hope by a good bit i think, first of all his style is the best suited by all purs boys. He's a very similar style to Murray from England inthe same weight and he got a medal at the world Championships last year, i rate john joe better than him. He also hasn't been beaten by many fighters if any in his weight where as the other lads have so that has to be a good thing.

12 to 1 i'll have to get some of that

All in all i wish all the boys the best they'd done us all proud lets hope tey male us prouder.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

I have heard from a good source that the Cuban team are not bringing a lot of their best.
I was told that the 2nd and third string guys are going to the games. Still formidable; but a little breather for the rest of the world

The Cuban bantam sounds tough. Anyone who beats Gamboa and Barthelemy have to be top class

The Cuban guys are sending their best fighters, it's just the best ones they have left . Afterall in the last 2 years they've lost Yuriorkis Gamboa, Yan Barthelemy, Odlanier Solis, Erlisandy Lara and Yoan Paoblo Hernandez to promoter Ahmet Oener . Oener almost got Rigondeux aswell but his attempted defection has him banned from fighting now . What is a shame is that Lara was caught aswell but he tryed defecting again and was successful . Rigondeux was on that boat that he successfully escaped on, but jumped off before it left Those 6 were the Golden Boys of Cuban amateur boxing .

Although Hernandez was still more of a prospect at the time having won Silver in the Pan-Am games and lost in the second round of the last Olympics to the a Russian who was a two time World and European champion .

and Funnily enough we've actually played a role in this taking Mike Perez here, he would have been a decent contender for their Olympic team . Alexey Collado and Luis Garcia(the two other Junior World Champions Gary Hyde has signed recently) did try to qualify for the Olympics as far as I'm aware though, they just failed .

The Cubans have 10 boxer qualified from a possible 11, the division their missing out on is Light-Heavyweight . Good news for Kenny . This is still pretty amazing considering they weren't at the World Championships .

However I am slightly enjoying their declining success due to fighters turning pro, it's something every other country has to cope with nowdays so it's nice that the playing field has been evened up .


Many people familiar with the amateur game would probably comment on the USA's decline as a boxing(amateur) superpower . However they have the only certain Gold medal in the tournament for me . Raushee Warren

I haven't seen an amateur like that since Roy Jones jnr , he was at the last Olympics(at just 17) and won a bronze at the World Championships the year after . Two years later he won Gold at the last World Championships . Btw just so people know the person to beat him in the last Olympics ?.....Zou Shiming .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjyt5eGZCbk

That's the World Championship final, and he's come on quite a bit since then .
If this guy has a good chin he'll make one hell of a professional .

alanceltic

walshb wrote: »

I have heard from a good source that the Cuban team are not bringing a lot of their best.
I was told that the 2nd and third string guys are going to the games. Still formidable; but a little breather for the rest of the world

Sure there no representation from the cubans in Chicago if you remember because some of them claimed asylum status at an earlier tournament, the dictators are obviously flexing their political muscle to prevent it happening in future years, wouldnt be the first time and doubt it will be the last

Hero Of College

I fancy Sutherland on account of how strong he is. Thats it really. I dont think our ammys are any worse than the English though, and they are touted to all get out.:rolleyes:

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

I fancy Sutherland on account of how strong he is. Thats it really. I dont think our ammys are any worse than the English though, and they are touted to all get out.:rolleyes:

I've seen some very ambitious predicitions for that British team, I've a feeling some people may be getting their hopes smashed . Some of them seem to think Frankie Gavin already has a gold round his neck and while he's definitely capable of doing it , it's also possible another guy in the top 4/5 at Lightweight gets him in the first round and beats him . The draw is so important here .

Sutherland has a better chance of medaling than DeGale, Egan has a better chance than Jeffries . However I would give Joe Murray a better chance than Nevin and Bradley Saunders has a better chance than Joyce .

Khalid Yafai is a good young fighter but at Flyweight he has no chance of a medal, Billy Joe Saunders is in the same position as Yafai . Another very good young fighter(18 like Yafai) but not good enough to medal .
Those two might have a chance if they're arouind in 4 years .

Danny Price is capable of picking up a bronze at Super-Heavyweight with a good draw . The Heavyweights and Super-Heavyweights only have 16 guys in their weight class at the Olympics where the lighter guys have to contend with 28 guys .

So for me Gavin, Murray and Price have a reasonable chance and I reckon they'll probably get one medal at least but at the same time it's possible they'll come home with nothing . I wouldn't begrudge them any success though, you win a medal at the Olympics you deserve it .

Dodge

Big Ears wrote: »

I wouldn't begrudge them any success though, you win a medal at the Olympics you deserve it .

Even getting to the Olympics is a success. The amateur game is really strong at the minute with 3 genuine world powers (and although the US have faltered they are still a world power) and several countries with decently funded boxing programmes. I'd have no hesitation in saying that if this was pre break up of the soviet union I'd expect 2/3 Irish medals but the independent states are producing there own strong teams (Kazakhstan in particular)

Here's a breakdown of former Soviet states in the Irish weight categories
Light fly; Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Ukraine, Armenia, Russia
Bantam; Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Russia, Moldova
Light welter; Kazakhstan, Russia, Armenia, Lithuania
Middle; Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Russia, Armenia, Ukraine
Light Heavy; Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Russia, Lituania, Belarus (and of course the Ukranian has been banned)

HollowMan

I have a feeling Egan will crumble again, and Sutherland could do likewise against a really savvy opponent.


Nevin is our only realistic hope I fear. Joyce and Barnes just aren't good enough. It was the biggest fluke of all time when Barnes qualified.

I think Joyce isn't good enough either, was beaten in the quarters in the EU.

03mcgs0

HollowMan wrote: »

I have a feeling Egan will crumble again, and Sutherland could do likewise against a really savvy opponent.


Nevin is our only realistic hope I fear. Joyce and Barnes just aren't good enough.

I think Joyce isn't good enough either, was beaten in the quarters in the EU.

I very much agree with you there, Egan seems to crumble under pressure, Sutherland is strong and has a big punch but gets hit easily and has a weak chin, dont think he will pick up a medal, hope I'm wrong on both Egan and Sutherland but dont think I am.

Nevin is by far our best chance of a medal, no one even heard of the guy 8 months ago and I remember at the National Finals people were laughing at his Final fight which he won because there was very little action in the opening rounds. How wrong some people are, he's just really hard to hit and although he isn't the most exciting to watch he scores.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

The Cuban guys are sending their best fighters, it's just the best ones they have left . Afterall in the last 2 years they've lost Yuriorkis Gamboa, Yan Barthelemy, Odlanier Solis, Erlisandy Lara and Yoan Paoblo Hernandez to promoter Ahmet Oener . Oener almost got Rigondeux aswell but his attempted defection has him banned from fighting now . What is a shame is that Lara was caught aswell but he tryed defecting again and was successful . Rigondeux was on that boat that he successfully escaped on, but jumped off before it left Those 6 were the Golden Boys of Cuban amateur boxing .

Although Hernandez was still more of a prospect at the time having won Silver in the Pan-Am games and lost in the second round of the last Olympics to the a Russian who was a two time World and European champion .

and Funnily enough we've actually played a role in this taking Mike Perez here, he would have been a decent contender for their Olympic team . Alexey Collado and Luis Garcia(the two other Junior World Champions Gary Hyde has signed recently) did try to qualify for the Olympics as far as I'm aware though, they just failed .

The Cubans have 10 boxer qualified from a possible 11, the division their missing out on is Light-Heavyweight . Good news for Kenny . This is still pretty amazing considering they weren't at the World Championships .

However I am slightly enjoying their declining success due to fighters turning pro, it's something every other country has to cope with nowdays so it's nice that the playing field has been evened up .


Many people familiar with the amateur game would probably comment on the USA's decline as a boxing(amateur) superpower . However they have the only certain Gold medal in the tournament for me . Raushee Warren

I haven't seen an amateur like that since Roy Jones jnr , he was at the last Olympics(at just 17) and won a bronze at the World Championships the year after . Two years later he won Gold at the last World Championships . Btw just so people know the person to beat him in the last Olympics ?.....Zou Shiming .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjyt5eGZCbk

That's the World CHampionship fina, and he's come on quite a bit since then .
If this guy has a good chin he'll make one hell of a professional .

A lot of their best are gone thru defection, but I was told that even the next best might not be going either. It is probably untrue and the Cubans who are going are the National champions, ie the best there is

Dodge

walshb wrote: »

A lot of their best are gone thru defection, but I was told that even the next best might not be going either. It is probably untrue and the Cubans who are going are the National champions, ie the best there is

The Cubans who are going have won the places over the past year. Check out the IABA website for full info

Big Ears

ccording to this article http://www.irishnews.com/articles/597/556/2008/7/29/593929_352751656042Chinainh.html Barnes didn't just lose his first 12 fights..............but first 15 !


Now that really is some turnaround.

walshb

And as I alluded to, they were close close losses. Not a case of a poor performer, just beaten by talented opposition in close bouts

sligobhoy67

I'd only really be confident of Gavin medaling out of the Irish and British teams - second best chance would be Murray - interestingly enough the pair of them are from Irish families!

Andyfbt

Feck that anyway Nevin is out

j.griff

HollowMan wrote: »

I have a feeling Egan will crumble again, and Sutherland could do likewise against a really savvy opponent.


Nevin is our only realistic hope I fear. Joyce and Barnes just aren't good enough. It was the biggest fluke of all time when Barnes qualified.

I think Joyce isn't good enough either, was beaten in the quarters in the EU.

hollowman i think your wrong about barnes

JJ

I hate to sound ignorant here but how is it that Barnes is guaranteed at least a bronze now? Isn't it possible that he could lose in the semi-final, lose the bronze match and end up with no medal?

Funkyzeit

JJ wrote: »

I hate to sound ignorant here but how is it that Barnes is guaranteed at least a bronze now? Isn't it possible that he could lose in the semi-final, lose the bronze match and end up with no medal?

Both losing semi's get Bronze...

Dodge

JJ wrote: »

I hate to sound ignorant here but how is it that Barnes is guaranteed at least a bronze now? Isn't it possible that he could lose in the semi-final, lose the bronze match and end up with no medal?

There's no box off for Bronze. Both losing semi finalsist get medals. Its to ensure a boxer doesn't receive two heavy beatings in the space of a day or so.

JJ

Thanks, that's been buggin' me.

Dodge

HollowMan wrote: »

Nevin is our only realistic hope I fear. Joyce and Barnes just aren't good enough. It was the biggest fluke of all time when Barnes qualified

I know I shouldn't but still...

ROCKMAN

HollowMan wrote: »

Nevin is our only realistic hope I fear. Joyce and Barnes just aren't good enough. It was the biggest fluke of all time when Barnes qualified.

.

But if you have too, lets do it right

Victor McDade

This could be a stinker of a day for ya HollowMan!

Come on Egan, take heart from wee Paddy

cowzerp

HollowMan wrote: »

Nevin is our only realistic hope I fear. Joyce and Barnes just aren't good enough. It was the biggest fluke of all time when Barnes qualified.

Wally of the year award goes to-HollowMan!