Planning application costs??? robbed i think

rosnacanee

Just got a quote from architect for 2700 sqft house, site survey, planning application of 3500 incl VAT. IS this average or am i been taken for a ride? Whats the scope of barganing with these guys.

Sick as a small hospital

MrLNB

rosnacanee wrote: »

Just got a quote from architect for 2700 sqft house, site survey, planning application of 3500 incl VAT. IS this average or am i been taken for a ride? Whats the scope of barganing with these guys.

Sick as a small hospital

my sister just paid that for hers,

i am expecting the same bill in the coming months, MAYO

hope this helps

Builderfromhell

Sounds very reasonable to me presuming you have a competent architect.
VAT is charged at 21% so your Architect gets about 3,000.
If he does an average of 1 house a month, allowing for Christmas quiet time and other holidays he may make 32,000 a year. Deduct costs - computer, software, car, income tax etc. and I guess he's (or she) wishing he were builders like me.

Mellor

How long do you think this would take? Assign a time, and an hourly or weekly rate and see what you get.

Supertech

€3500 equates to around €2900 + VAT @ 21%. Includes Site Survey (say €300 + VAT @ 21%) so that leaves him getting about €2500. That's less than €1 per square foot. Even allowing a very conservative estimate €100 per square foot to build that's less than 1% of the cost of building the house. I'd say that's fair enough (reasonable even when compared to some I've heard of). When you look at the work that's going to go into it (if it's done right !!) he'll have earned every cent by the time it goes to planning.

rosnacanee

Thanks a million, think i just got a shock when i say the price but when brokendown like that it makes sense.

He is very competent, helpful and accomodating and have got lots of good reports about him.

On the right track so.

Thanks again

No6

I have to say it sounds reasonable to me, if the Guy is good and has a good record in the area he's great value. Its when you get quoted percentage fees you need to run a mile!!!:eek:

sydthebeat

Thats a very reasonable cost. anything around €1 per sq foot is an extremly competitive cost. You wouldnt get that around my neck of the woods.

RKQ

I agree, reasonable fee as there is a lot of work in a planning permission application. It takes a long time to design a house, sketch scheme a, b, & c, site levels, maps, percolation tests, Planning meetings / requests etc.... be grateful you are not being charged by the hour!

At 1% of the overall cost, its the best price you'll get on the whole job. What will the tradesmen charge in comparison?

It can be a shock but you'll get getting bigger bills, on a regular basis, once you start construction. It can be hard to leave a store without spending that amount - timber floors, tiles, sanitary ware, etc.

Its good value for whats involved.

snellers

I insisted on paying a family member (RIBA/MRIAI) to design and submit house for us. (he didn't want to charge but we insisted so we could act on a professional level at all times with him and him with us......didn't want him treating us as a freebie if you know what I mean!)

He offered a vastly discounted rate from his norm and we are being charged €5000

granted he will provide a more in depth service for us that we aren't paying entirely for but to give you an idea looks like your quote is cheap

Supertech

Yep ..... Normally RIAI members charge on a percentage basis, with the figure being based on the projected overall cost of constructing the house.Not sure about RIBA, but guess they operated ona simliar basis. Percentages will vary from area to area.

muffler

The price would probably be reasonable enough for an architect but then again if its only planning drawings and application then it would be a bit more than you would pay in our neck of the woods.

manufan16

I am in Dublin and in the process of paying €4.5k for drawings,newspaper article and application to council on my behalf!

brianomurphy

I've gone private to a local architect.

He works for an architecture firm, but does do plans on the side as well.

The house will be ~2000 sq ft.

He will create the plans and submit the planning on our behalf.

Total Cost is €1100, landscaping is seperate and will cost 300 to be done by another lad recmmended by my architect. Our site is approx 200 yards off a privte lane.

In Wexford area by the way.

Supertech

Nickser = €1100

No VAT
No Tax
No overheads
No PI
No staff

Doing it as a sideline is one thing, but it would be VERY hard to make a living out of it at that rate, and that's where the increased costs start to mount up

rosullivan

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Sounds very reasonable to me presuming you have a competent architect.
VAT is charged at 21% so your Architect gets about 3,000.
If he does an average of 1 house a month, allowing for Christmas quiet time and other holidays he may make 32,000 a year. Deduct costs - computer, software, car, income tax etc. and I guess he's (or she) wishing he were builders like me.

Ha Ha! Not too many architects doing just one planning application a month and nothing else!

muffler

rosullivan wrote: »

Ha Ha! Not too many architects doing just one planning application a month and nothing else!

Spot on.

No6

brianomurphy wrote: »

I've gone private to a local architect.

He works for an architecture firm, but does do plans on the side as well.

The house will be ~2000 sq ft.

He will create the plans and submit the planning on our behalf.

Total Cost is €1100, landscaping is seperate and will cost 300 to be done by another lad recmmended by my architect. Our site is approx 200 yards off a privte lane.

In Wexford area by the way.

Is dealing with Further Information included, is he able to sign off on the project or will you be abondoned after you get a planning desicion. I hope it works out for you but generally if you pay peanuts you get monkey's!!

CamperMan

I got an architect for €2750, this included site survey, soil test, house plans, site plans, dealing with the planners, etc. I find this reasonable, I think my architect is working hard for his money on our project

Quazzie

I just want to point out that it isn't 1% of the costs as previously stated. A 2900 sqft house is not going to cost 350,000 to build. I think its expensive for planning application drawings.

Garroldy

Get a cheap price, get a cheap design. Imagine sitting in your new kitchen the morning after you move in and wondering where the sun is..."ooohhh no its on the other side of the house". No point in thinking to yourself then "damn I wish I had paid for a good design, all I got a set of planning application drawings at a low price". Am I wrong?.

Quazzie the cost is relative to the service you receive. A bespoke design tailored to your current and future needs with all aspects of the site, daylighting and ergonomics designed in is worth alot more than the prices quoted here. To speak as if all you are getting for your money is a set planning application drawings belittles the design process.

Slig

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

I just want to point out that it isn't 1% of the costs as previously stated. A 2900 sqft house is not going to cost 350,000 to build. I think its expensive for planning application drawings.

Personally I dont see anything wrong with that price as long as your house is being designed and not just copied out of a book and that the planning process will be dealt with professionally. In fact if anything I think its about 500 - 100euro too cheap in the recent market.

However price and value are 2 different things. If all you want is a bog standard bungalow on a straight forward site then you are paying way too much. As demonstrated above there are plenty of places that you can get nixers done or hire an engineer or draftsman to draw it up for a fraction of the price.

At the end of the day, if you've done your homework on the architect and like their designs then its a small price to pay in the overall cost to get the custom designed house that you want.

RKQ

Well said Slig, I agree, price and value are 2 different things.

If the "nixer" cost €1100, how much does his boss charge?

Supertech

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

I just want to point out that it isn't 1% of the costs as previously stated. A 2900 sqft house is not going to cost 350,000 to build. I think its expensive for planning application drawings.

The price quoted initially included the site survey and VAT in any case. SO in essence Quazzie you are right, it's not 1% of the estimated cost of building the house - it's less if you work the figures back, and assume €100 per square foot to use a builder.

2900 sq.ft @ €100 / sq.ft = € 290,000
Price paid to Archietct = c.€2500 = 0.86 %

Supertech

RKQ wrote: »

Well said Slig, I agree, price and value are 2 different things.

If the "nixer" cost €1100, how much does his boss charge?

Obviously a multiple of that amount RKQ..... 'cos he's basically sponsoring the drawings for all this guys clients

ampjohnny

We paid 15k in total for ours and that includes surveyor fees, engineer fees, report from landscape architect etc - basically everything up to the point of submission incl advertising

Our project involves 3 x 1200 sq ft house and 1 x 1500 sq ft house

I thought overall that was pretty reasonable and that i got value for money (provided ia actually get the f**king planing of course )

Slig

ampjohnny wrote: »

We paid 15k in total for ours and that includes surveyor fees, engineer fees, report from landscape architect etc - basically everything up to the point of submission incl advertising

Our project involves 3 x 1200 sq ft house and 1 x 1500 sq ft house

I thought overall that was pretty reasonable and that i got value for money (provided ia actually get the f**king planing of course )

thats the stickler really. from an agents point of view, the work has been done by the time a decision is made, it costs an architect the same to get a grant as a refusal

Luuca

I paid 2178 E for Drawings and application to council - Offaly area

brianomurphy

Slig wrote: »

However price and value are 2 different things. If all you want is a bog standard bungalow on a straight forward site then you are paying way too much. As demonstrated above there are plenty of places that you can get nixers done or hire an engineer or draftsman to draw it up for a fraction of the price.

At the end of the day, if you've done your homework on the architect and like their designs then its a small price to pay in the overall cost to get the custom designed house that you want.

Well said Slig,
As im probably going down timber frame route, I could have easily gone to someone like IJM, picked 1 of their site and had a bog standard replica house.
I wanted something different, looked at a couple of architects, but went with the one I did, based on recommendations and seeing his designs in person(it doesn't hurt that he's local and living 5 minutes down the road).

iwudluvit

Architect is looking to charge me €6,000 to do plans and get past planning. This is for a renovation job that would cost about 100k build and 50k for new contents.

a. is he screwing me?
b. why is he quoting for all costs including non-architectural ones like the contents?
c. anyone know someone in dublin who'll do it for less??!

muffler

iwudluvit wrote: »

Architect is looking to charge me €6,000 to do plans and get past planning. This is for a renovation job that would cost about 100k build and 50k for new contents.

a. is he screwing me?
b. why is he quoting for all costs including non-architectural ones like the contents?
c. anyone know someone in dublin who'll do it for less??!

If its planning work only then yes you are being overcharged. I should say that the word "overcharge" is used loosely here but what I mean is that you have been quoted a figure that would be in the upper end of the scale.

Slig

Renovation/retention and extension jobs are difficult to do planning drawings for because you need double the drawings, Proposed & existing.
You also have to survey the existing and god knows what you will find once work commences.
Its unlikely that they will quote for consultants work. Engineers (if needed) will invoice seperately.
Sounds abit expensive to me but I'm a culchie:D

RKQ

iwudluvit wrote: »

Architect is looking to charge me €6,000 to do plans and get past planning. This is for a renovation job that would cost about 100k build and 50k for new contents.

b. why is he quoting for all costs including non-architectural ones like the contents?

Sounds like the upper end of the scale.
It migth be useful if iwudluvit could allaborate more on exactly what the fee includes and what is meant by the reference to contents?

What condition is the house at present, will it be extended or is it just a renovation?

If it just a quote and no design or survey works have started, then I'd contact local Architects, Technicians and Engineers for a quote.

holdfast

the price could be the difference between getting a degree award Architects,
as the tend to charge more than architect technicians and engineers.Also you pay for expierence.

in the passed you did not have to have any training or education to call yourself an architect so these guys tend to be cheaper aswell.

iwudluvit

RKQ wrote: »

Sounds like the upper end of the scale.
It migth be useful if iwudluvit could allaborate more on exactly what the fee includes and what is meant by the reference to contents?

What condition is the house at present, will it be extended or is it just a renovation?

If it just a quote and no design or survey works have started, then I'd contact local Architects, Technicians and Engineers for a quote.

Fee was based on my rough estimate of what I would like to spend before the job was finished. So includes fittings that should have no bearing on architectural work.

House is 40 years old and so needs work but it's an extension and some internal renovation. Naturally there's knock on effect in the house with wiring and plumbing but that's not my quibble. I don't mind paying the builder for work - just not the architect - the age and location of the house shouldn't double the fee.

RKQ

Sorry iwudluvit, you misunderstand my point.
Did the Architect base his / her fee on a percentage of the cost of the works or is it a standard fee, 6k for a 20sqm extension and 6k for a 40sqm extension.

The age and location of the house shouldn't double the fee, in fact it has no real bearing on the fee. Survey drawings of the Existing dwelling will be required.

The survey fee would / could be dearer for a 3000sqft 5 bedroomed two storey detached dwelling as opposed to a 1200sqft three bedroomed rectangular bungalow.

Its very difficult to say without seeing the property or having an idea of the existing floor area. Extensions can be complicated but a straight forward extension could cost less than 6K, for a planning permission application.:D

iwudluvit

RKQ wrote: »

Sorry iwudluvit, you misunderstand my point.
Did the Architect base his / her fee on a percentage of the cost of the works or is it a standard fee, 6k for a 20sqm extension and 6k for a 40sqm extension.

The age and location of the house shouldn't double the fee, in fact it has no real bearing on the fee. Survey drawings of the Existing dwelling will be required.

The survey fee would / could be dearer for a 3000sqft 5 bedroomed two storey detached dwelling as opposed to a 1200sqft three bedroomed rectangular bungalow.

Its very difficult to say without seeing the property or having an idea of the existing floor area. Extensions can be complicated but a straight forward extension could cost less than 6K, for a planning permission application.:D

#


Fee is based on my total budget of 150k, times his fee of 12%, then broken into three stages. To get past the first stage (design and p.p) is then 6,000.

Really, my annoyance is that I should have to pay based on costs that don't affect the architect.

sydthebeat

iwudluvit wrote: »

#


Fee is based on my total budget of 150k, times his fee of 12%, then broken into three stages. To get past the first stage (design and p.p) is then 6,000.

Really, my annoyance is that I should have to pay based on costs that don't affect the architect.

it should be the architects brief to get the most for your budget, both in design and in quality of work. It should be the architects responsibility to ensure both of these, thus the budget is directly linked to the architects fees.

iwudluvit

sydthebeat wrote: »

it should be the architects brief to get the most for your budget, both in design and in quality of work. It should be the architects responsibility to ensure both of these, thus the budget is directly linked to the architects fees.

in THEORY,


however in practise, the blame is shuffled to the builder, so it's 6 grand to file a few pictures - ergo, too much.

sinnerboy

So ... try to "file a few pictures" yourself with the local authority . See if you get anywhere doing that

iwudluvit

sinnerboy wrote: »

So ... try to "file a few pictures" yourself with the local authority . See if you get anywhere doing that

there's always one.

DOCARCH

iwudluvit wrote: »

Really, my annoyance is that I should have to pay based on costs that don't affect the architect.

If the fee proposal is 12% then that, I would suggest, is for the job/architects service from start to finish, including I assume tender package/drawings and contract administration so all the inside bits you mention (in terms of plumbing, electrics, etc.) will become part of the architects brief/responsibility?

If you just want a service to planning/a planning application, tell him/her, and they will possibly adjust their fee just to planning stage.

I would suggest get fee proposals from two other architects and then give out of you want!

BTW, this thread is driving me nuts!

Actually just to add - whoever the architect is - the fact that you are on here giving out, he/she was obviously not great at describing/outlining to you what services they will and will not provide you for the 12%?

muffler

Just to get this right and for the benefit of others.

The OP intends to apply for planning permission for an extension to house with a bit of renovations included.

The estimate for the construction works is 100K and the fittings/furniture/decor will cost about 50K and this figure has been dictated/choosen by the OP.

The architect will look after the planning and the construction end of things - basically an "all in" package.

The architects fees will be 18K (12% of total cost) and paid in 3 equal installments.

The OP believes that the 12% fee should be based on the cost of the construction works but excluding fittings/furniture/decor which would leave the architects fee at 12K.

I think thats a fair summary but if I have missed anything I'd be happy to amend it accordingly. If the above is correct then I would strongly advise that you should shop around.

No6

Seems clear to me muffler, seems very high to me Iwudluvit, 12% is a great fee but should be on construction costs only unless the architect is providing an interior design service also. You must be going for a bespoke design and a full service from your architect, I would question is this necessary for an extension. What is your brief to your architect are you in a conservation area and what is their scope of services and have they provided you a written service agreement.

Slig

I think in general opinion is that the fee is high, there are several possible reasons why it is so high, maybe the architect doesnt want the hassle of a renovation/extension job, maybe thats just their standard fees structure if they deal with larger projects.
Did you get more than one quote?

No6

Most of us here agree the fees are high but not unheard of, if you like this architects work and have to have them do the work for you then you are probably stuck wioth the high fee, you could of course haggle, if you are not particurarly pushed about having this particualr architect then shop around, as long as you havn't actually appointed them you're fine to shop around.

iwudluvit

DOCARCH wrote: »

If the fee proposal is 12% then that, I would suggest, is for the job/architects service from start to finish, including I assume tender package/drawings and contract administration so all the inside bits you mention (in terms of plumbing, electrics, etc.) will become part of the architects brief/responsibility?

If you just want a service to planning/a planning application, tell him/her, and they will possibly adjust their fee just to planning stage.

I would suggest get fee proposals from two other architects and then give out of you want!

BTW, this thread is driving me nuts!

Actually just to add - whoever the architect is - the fact that you are on here giving out, he/she was obviously not great at describing/outlining to you what services they will and will not provide you for the 12%?

I clearly said to the architect that I just want to go as far as planning at this stage. after that, depending on how it's going, we'll move on to the next stage.

the architect goes away and comes back with his fee - which is based on a % of the full job. In fairness, that's his tack and his way to the bill but when you break it down for me, 6k plus vat is too much just to get pp. and I think we all agree with that.

Maybe if I kept him on, that part of the fee works out ok overall but on its own, at this stage, it's too much.

iwudluvit

No6 wrote: »

Seems clear to me muffler, seems very high to me Iwudluvit, 12% is a great fee but should be on construction costs only unless the architect is providing an interior design service also. You must be going for a bespoke design and a full service from your architect, I would question is this necessary for an extension. What is your brief to your architect are you in a conservation area and what is their scope of services and have they provided you a written service agreement.

Yes, I think you've hit a nail on head here. I don't want interior design, I should have made that more clear. Not in conservation area, and have not signed anything yet.

My brief was to start off with p.p. I was kinda hoping for a nice low flat fee as an inducement to stay the course.

By the way, the first quote from another architect was 12.5%!

archie83

Slig wrote: »

I think in general opinion is that the fee is high, there are several possible reasons why it is so high, maybe the architect doesnt want the hassle of a renovation/extension job, maybe thats just their standard fees structure if they deal with larger projects.
Did you get more than one quote?

to be honest it's not that high a fee. However, with the amount of architects losing their jobs at the moment there are plenty available to do nixers - it shouldn't be too difficult to find a competitive quote from a qualified architect outside of going to an actual firm. I'm in this situation at the moment - it's finding a person to to the applications for is my issue!

ampjohnny

ampjohnny wrote: »

We paid 15k in total for ours and that includes surveyor fees, engineer fees, report from landscape architect etc - basically everything up to the point of submission incl advertising

Our project involves 3 x 1200 sq ft house and 1 x 1500 sq ft house

I thought overall that was pretty reasonable and that i got value for money (provided ia actually get the f**king planing of course )

Just a quick update on this... Got word there today that we got the planning for the development. There are a fair few conditions attached to it but nothing out of the ordinary.

As I said previously I would be very happy to recommend my Architecht - top guy and in fairness he came through with the end result, anyone in Cork looking for a good one pm me and ill forward on his details.

Cheers lads

BERarchtech

I'm an arch tech and a friend of mine recently paid 40k to an architects office for design, pp, tender drawings and a handful of site visits. they didnt even recommend builders! my friend had to find builders himself! is this normal?

I would do design and pp for friends now and then and only charge a fraction of this as I walk away after PP.

p.s I'm considering setting up on my own and I dont know much about what my role would be as to signing off/certs of compliance etc? I usually leave that up to my boss coz Im a technologist not an architect and I usually just do the design, pp, tender/construction dwgs, forms etc but he deals with the money side. any help?