4 Kings by George Kimball

buck65

Picked this up today in Hughes and Hughes
Nearly orgasmed!!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-Kings-Leonard-Hagler-Hearns/dp/1845963598/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216054554&sr=8-1

Hero Of College

By the late 1970s, boxing had lapsed into a moribund state and interest in it was on the wane. In 1980, however, the sport was resuscitated by a riveting series of bouts involving an improbably dissimilar quartet: Sugar Ray Leonard, 'Marvelous' Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran. The 'Four Kings of the Ring' would fight one another nine times throughout the decade and win 16 world titles between them. Like Ali and Frazier, Dempsey and Tunney, Robinson and LaMotta, these four boxers brought out the best in each other, producing unprecedented multi-million-dollar gates along the way.Each of the nine bouts between the four men was memorable in its own way and at least two of them - Leonard-Hearns I in 1981 and Hagler-Hearns in 1985 - are commonly included on any list of the greatest fights of all time. The controversial outcome of another - the 1987 Leonard-Hagler fight - remains the subject of heated debates amongst fans to this day. Leonard, Hagler, Hearns and Duran didn't set out to save boxing from itself in the post-Ali era, but somehow they managed to do so.In "Four Kings", award-winning journalist, George Kimball documents the remarkable effect they had on the sport and argues that we will never see their likes again.

LIKE I KEEP SAYING...leave Wlad, Peter,Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev,Valuev,Haye, etc the **** alone and they will sort this thing out. Boxing NEVER NEEDS SAVING....just leaving alone.

buck65

Jeez man are you comparing those chumps with Hagler Duran Robinson and Hearns?

Hero Of College

buck65 wrote: »

Jeez man are you comparing those chumps with Hagler Duran Robinson and Hearns?

No....I am comparing the moribund state of boxing in the 1970's which Kimball allegedly is profiling, to the equally allegedly bad state of boxing which has supposedly persisted for much of the 1990's and 00's.

Its worth noting that the crowning glory of the Hagler/Hearns/Leonard years didn't occur until 1987.....thats a full 6 years after it all kicked off, if not more.

There are enough fighters and enough fights out there to make things happen yet.

Like I said, leave it alone, and it will right itself.

buck65

Unfortunately since the mid 90s in my opinion the heavyweight division has produced very little in the way of exciting match ups. Even Lennox Lewis was more exciting than the current crop of boxers.

Hero Of College

buck65 wrote: »

Unfortunately since the mid 90s in my opinion the heavyweight division has produced very little in the way of exciting match ups. Even Lennox Lewis was more exciting than the current crop of boxers.

Maybe, but Welterweight and Middlweight were fairly crappo during the 70's. Monzon, Benvenuti, Briscoe?? Some decent timber, but a lot of nonsense too. Even when the big fights happened, they didn't. People think Briscoe was jobbed first time out with Monzon, by the rf.. Benvenuti certainly was. We didn't force the issue, and the great fighters eventually came through. Importantly, and unlike todays divisions at 147,154,160....the big names fought each other. Thats crucial. And, IMHO, its happening more in todays heavyweight division than it is in some of the lower divisions.

megadodge

People think Briscoe was jobbed first time out with Monzon, by the rf.. Benvenuti certainly was.

Would you care to expand that point ?

megadodge

Heard Kimball on the radio the other day promoting this book and was ready for the usual "everything was great back in the good old days compared to now..." rubbish we often get, but in fairness he never went down that line, just stuck to the subjects of the book.

However, when asked by Matt Cooper who was the best of the four, he replied "that would have to be between Hagler and Leonard". Boy, do I disagree with that !!

I'm a huge Hagler fan, but saying he's better p4p than Duran is crazy. Duran was a natural LIGHTWEIGHT who fought Hagler at MIDDLEWEIGHT a full 11 years after he won his first World title !! He still gave Marvin a hard 15 rounds, so imagine what he could have done if they were put into the magic machine that is the p4p decider. Duran all the way for me.

megadodge

Actually, this reminded me of an article Kimball wrote in the Times a few years back. It was so biased and factually inaccurate I wrote into the Times complaining. My letter wasn't published, but I'd like to think that it was forwarded to Kimball to make him realise he can't just write any tripe and get away with it.

The jist of the article was how awful Vitali Klitchko was. If he made any valid points it would have been ok, but he supported his argument by referring to various derogatory nicknames, saying Klit quit on his stool v Lewis when the going got tough, called Corrie Sanders "light-hitting", etc.

It was pretty obvious to me that the only thing Klitchko was guilty of was not being American !

buck65

Yeah I like Duran too, but Hagler certainly had an aura about him. A bad MOFO. Leonard and Tommy were certainly the best boxers of the 4 but when it came to digging deep Hagler was the man IMO.

buck65

Funny I always rated Kimball's work in the Irish Times, even about non boxing matters. The book is good though.

numerocinco

I have just bought it so looking forward to reading it, I also like reading his articles in the Irish Times so hopefully it wont let me down. He has been close to a lot of the big fights throughout the years so I would trust his judgement.

raven136

Kinball is one of the great american sports writers on any sporting subjext,he has a vast knowledge and keeps you interested in his pieces.A good book.

Did anyone read bud schulberg's book "ringside..a treasury of boxing reportage" a good book but a bit too much back in my day stuff.


the difference between them and us though is that they were there during most of those fights ringside,that makes them far more qualified to speak about it than us in my opinion

megadodge

In fairness, I enjoy his articles in the Times too, but it was just that one particular one that really bugged me.

There's a strong possibility that it's a good read.

Hero Of College

megadodge wrote: »

Would you care to expand that point ?

Benvenuti gets tagged. Then Monzon punches him in the back of the head. Ref can't even make up his mind whether its a knockdown or not. Then Monzon clubs him around the back of the head and pushes him down. Then the towel comes in. I mean....come on.

In the first Briscoe fight, the ref started to warn Briscoe for no reason when he had Monzon going. Monzon would get extended rest periods when Briscoe had him hurt. Joe Cortez eat your heart out.

Hero Of College

buck65 wrote: »

Yeah I like Duran too, but Hagler certainly had an aura about him. A bad MOFO. Leonard and Tommy were certainly the best boxers of the 4 but when it came to digging deep Hagler was the man IMO.

He showed me nothing vs Leonard.

Leonard was coming off a 5 year layoff. Hagler was supposed to be this lean, fit machine.

Leonard was faster, busier, more accurate. Hagler resorted to following him around and waving his glove by the end.

That fight reminds me a lot of Naz-Barrera. Barrera out-thought and out-fought him. Then Naz pissed off and was never seen again, for all intents and purposes.

The media loves to spin it that Hagler quit cos of the injustice etc. Total sh!te. The guy was finished. His next fight would have been a defeat too.

cowzerp

Zero Of College wrote: »

There are enough fighters and enough fights out there to make things happen yet.

Like I said, leave it alone, and it will right itself.

it was you who said that boxing was been left behind by mma!

total crap, last year was the best year in boxing in a long long time, MMA has become mainstream which i think is great, but its still miles behind boxing in terms of popularity and overall money involved, everyone compares the UFC success to boxing but mma is much more than the UFC and in most cases its way behind boxing popularity and money wise.

i do mma and boxing and love both so dont have any bias either. UFC is mma's equivalent to the big shows boxing have on, PBF V ODLH for instance.

On topic, Boxing goes through stages of been mainstream or not but its always big time, even at its worst. at its best its massive.

Hero Of College

cowcrap wrote: »

it was you who said that boxing was been left behind by mma!

total crap, last year was the best year in boxing in a long long time, MMA has become mainstream which i think is great, but its still miles behind boxing in terms of popularity and overall money involved, everyone compares the UFC success to boxing but mma is much more than the UFC and in most cases its way behind boxing popularity and money wise.

i do mma and boxing and love both so dont have any bias either. UFC is mma's equivalent to the big shows boxing have on, PBF V ODLH for instance.

On topic, Boxing goes through stages of been mainstream or not but its always big time, even at its worst. at its best its massive.

has BEEN or was BEING??

MMA is growing fast. Too fast for boxing to mess around and disown champions simply because they come from a part of the world most kids can't find on a map.

buck65

Maybe if these Eastern European boxers showed something in the ring the Heavyweight div. wouldn't be this tremendous snorefest that it has become. Maskaev, Valuev absolute ****e fighters. Klitchko marginally better to watch. The guy got power but reminds me of a big cruiseliner he turns and moves so slowly. That fight against Thompson was boring.

Hero Of College

buck65 wrote: »

Maybe if these Eastern European boxers showed something in the ring the Heavyweight div. wouldn't be this tremendous snorefest that it has become. Maskaev, Valuev absolute ****e fighters. Klitchko marginally better to watch. The guy got power but reminds me of a big cruiseliner he turns and moves so slowly. That fight against Thompson was boring.

MMA 1, Boxing 0
buck65 og

buck65

emm?
what?

cowzerp

Hero Of College wrote: »

MMA 1, Boxing 0
buck65 og

Boxing fan! mma is over on the martial arts forum.

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

Boxing fan! mma is over on the martial arts forum.

Well its going to be over here pretty soon unless you all appreciate Klitschko and co for what they are rather than criticising them for not being what you want them to be.

cowzerp

Its over here already! i do it myself.
MMA is great, just not on boxing's level-and thats with it been a new interest an all, people will not be excited by it in a few years, they'll either be fans or not just like boxing, people now are interested as its the unknown! i hope its as popular as boxing but cant see it..i love both.

boxings fan base is established and always will be, most mma fans i know are fighters-thats fine-but fighters are few..

anyway your getting old trying to get your point across about klitscho etc,, if people find them boring then thats there opinion, i dont mind him, personally i prefer him to lewis, and i dont think the heavyweight division is that poor, i want vitali back tbh, there is simply no exciting fighter known at present, tyson like, holyfield, bowe etc..even morrison and briggs, there the type of heavys that fans like to watch at there best.

DiscoHugh

Which Hughes & Hughes did you get it at? and for how much? I always like Kimbell's articles in the times, though he is very anti-klitschko.

People have been sounding the death bells for boxing for years, nay, decades It used to worry the **** out of me but guess what? Boxing is still here. I still watch it religously and that's all that matters

I always think of this quote (which I actually got from a mma site) whenever I read the latest "boxing is in on it's last breath" article:

-Take solace, for years from now, long after the kid is gone and all his games have faded into lore, men will still fight with their fists for money.

megadodge

Hero Of College wrote: »

He showed me nothing vs Leonard.

Leonard was coming off a 5 year layoff. Hagler was supposed to be this lean, fit machine.

Leonard was faster, busier, more accurate. Hagler resorted to following him around and waving his glove by the end.

That fight reminds me a lot of Naz-Barrera. Barrera out-thought and out-fought him. Then Naz pissed off and was never seen again, for all intents and purposes.

The media loves to spin it that Hagler quit cos of the injustice etc. Total sh!te. The guy was finished. His next fight would have been a defeat too.

Leonard was faster.
He most certainly was NOT busier or more accurate.
Bar the first few rounds Hagler threw a steady amount of punches every round and Leonard would occasionally throw a fast pitter patter flurry of 8-9 punches that would hit Hagler mainly on the gloves and arms. The crowd would go mental and Leonard would be awarded the round by the commentators (and two of the judges).

It wasn't anything like Hamed/Barrera. There was no controversy in that fight. There was a clear winner who surprised everyone with the exact opposite tactics to what absolutely everyone expected.

I will agree with you that Hagler was finished though.
It was obvious even in the Mugabi fight that he was slower and easier to hit than ever before.
But I think once Leonard refused a rematch Hagler retired, as that potential rematch was the one and only reason for him to continue.

megadodge

Benvenuti gets tagged. Then Monzon punches him in the back of the head. Ref can't even make up his mind whether its a knockdown or not. Then Monzon clubs him around the back of the head and pushes him down. Then the towel comes in. I mean....come on.

It's amazing the crap you come up with.

Benvenuti was caught and badly staggered by a left hook to the jaw (not chest as the analyst said) and as he staggered by Monzon, Carlos threw a right that at worst landed just behind the ear. Absolutely nothing controversial there. Just because the wig-wearer didn't see the original hook doesn't authenticate anything. The ref was 100% correct in issuing a count.

Then in the next round Monzon connected heavily and then half-pushed Benvenuti down. The ref ruled it as 'no knockdown' but then the towel came in, so he had to stop it.

Yet you somehow dress this up as Benvenuti getting jobbed by the referee???

Hero Of College

megadodge wrote: »

It's amazing the crap you come up with.

Benvenuti was caught and badly staggered by a left hook to the jaw (not chest as the analyst said) and as he staggered by Monzon, Carlos threw a right that at worst landed just behind the ear. Absolutely nothing controversial there. Just because the wig-wearer didn't see the original hook doesn't authenticate anything. The ref was 100% correct in issuing a count.

Then in the next round Monzon connected heavily and then half-pushed Benvenuti down. The ref ruled it as 'no knockdown' but then the towel came in, so he had to stop it.

Yet you somehow dress this up as Benvenuti getting jobbed by the referee???

Yes, a well known death-point.

He got cracked in the back of the skull when his back was turned and he was defenceless.

megadodge

Yes, a well known death-point.

Yeah, and he probably did Kill Bill's Five Point Palm Exploding Heart technique too while he was at it !!

mousey007

just finished the book last night and it is definitely up there with the best sports books i've read

Hero Of College

megadodge wrote: »

Yeah, and he probably did Kill Bill's Five Point Palm Exploding Heart technique too while he was at it !!

Listen mate, he got hit in the back of the head. Mickey Ward got nailed just behind the ear against Gatti and he was all over the shop. The ref in the Benvenuti fight just sort of stood there and let him nail him. Remember the ref in Tyson-Savrese? You need to leap in there and protect the guy at all times. If you can't then DQ the other guy.

megadodge

The ref in the Benvenuti fight just sort of stood there and let him nail him

Benvenuti was staggered, but still on his feet, so unless he was going to stop it he couldn't intervene !!

In boxing you 'protect yourself at all times'.

There are numerous far more flagrant punches to the back of the head than this example (Foreman/Frazier 1) that are never penalised. There was nothing wrong with the refereeing in this fight.