Protein quantity

flogen

Quick question or two on protein -

Is there a rule of thumb about how much protein you should get a day. I read a reference somewhere that it should be 1g for every kg of lean body weight, would that be right or would it depend on other factors?

I'd try and get to the gym three times a week; should the amount of protein I take in a day change depending on whether it's a gym day or an off day?

Also, I remember someone here saying you should get protein before and after the gym (after to help rebuild the muscle) - I'm assuming that's good advice but just want to clarify it!

My goal is to build muscle and I have been seeing improvements and I'm sure the increased amount of protein I'm consuming has been a factor in that... I just want to make sure I'm getting enough to maximise these results.

(On that note, I imagine it's possible to have too much protein in your diet - what result does this have? Does it turn to fat and if so would it be relatively easy to shift or just as hard as the fat you'd gain from eating junk foods?)

tribulus

flogen wrote: »

Quick question or two on protein -

Is there a rule of thumb about how much protein you should get a day. I read a reference somewhere that it should be 1g for every kg of weight, would that be right or would it depend on other factors?
It's generally accepted to be 1g/lb of lean bodyweight or ~2g/kg if your goal is strength/muscle gain.

I'd try and get to the gym three times a week; should the amount of protein I take in a day change depending on whether it's a gym day or an off day?
I wouldn't worry about that too much, maybe just add in a shake after training for an extra 20-40g.

Also, I remember someone here saying you should get protein before and after the gym (after to help rebuild the muscle) - I'm assuming that's good advice but just want to clarify it!
Yep, not just at those times but aim to get protein in at every meal.

My goal is to build muscle and I have been seeing improvements and I'm sure the increased amount of protein I'm consuming has been a factor in that... I just want to make sure I'm getting enough to maximise these results.
If something ain't broke don't fix it! Or just follow the guidelines above.

(On that note, I imagine it's possible to have too much protein in your diet - what result does this have? Does it turn to fat and if so would it be relatively easy to shift or just as hard as the fat you'd gain from eating junk foods?)

Protein can't turn to fat, it will be excreted, nor can muscle for that matter (popular myth). I'm not aware of any adverse effects of excess protein in healthy people. Even if there were it would probably have to be ridiculously high amounts.

flogen

Many thanks tribulus - now I just need to get an accurate body fat reading so I know exactly what my lean bodyweight is!

Until then I'll just stick to what I've been doing as it has been working - hopefully once I get more precise details I'll be able to make it work even better!

tribulus

Ahh never mind the tiny details! E.g. If you're 90kg aim for 180-200g, if you come up a bit short sometimes it's no big deal.

flogen

tribulus wrote: »

Ahh never mind the tiny details! E.g. If you're 90kg aim for 180-200g, if you come up a bit short sometimes it's no big deal.

True but I'd like to be aiming for the right amount (my lean body weight) as opposed to my overall body weight... that said from what you're saying it wouldn't matter much if I was taking 2g/kg of overall body weight, the only difference would being the extra "hassle/effort" involved in ensuring I got that amount as opposed to whatever I'd need for my lean body weight.

Thanks anyway - I'm pretty sure I'm not getting quite enough either way so I can happily up my intake a bit and see how it goes from there.

tribulus

Yeah exactly, your body won't complain about 20g more than needed, likewise all your effort won't go to waste if you're only 20g below what you need etc.

TiM_rEAPeR

22g daily is more then sufficient for ANYONE!
muscles are only made up of 22% protein, everything else is mis educated ignorance.

Brian?

TiM_rEAPeR wrote: »

22g daily is more then sufficient for ANYONE!
muscles are only made up of 22% protein, everything else is mis educated ignorance.

Really?

Edwardius

TiM_rEAPeR wrote: »

22g daily is more then sufficient for ANYONE!
muscles are only made up of 22% protein, everything else is mis educated ignorance.

You remind me of this guy: http://www.timecube.com/

The Freeman

TiM_rEAPeR wrote: »

22g daily is more then sufficient for ANYONE!
muscles are only made up of 22% protein, everything else is mis educated ignorance.

just to clarify your point tim, are you saying that 22 grams of protein per day is sufficent in gaining muscle mass?

i'm taking 1g per 1lb of my overall weight per day, from the many differant articles accross the 'interweb' the general consensus is as i've stated for gaining muscle mass

i wait to be corrected;)

Hornd

Protein can't turn to fat, it will be excreted

Very wrong man!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

tribulus

No, no it's not.

aye

This is taken from

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa64.htm

Protein Requirements in Grams per Pound of Body Weight per Day
Sedentary Adult (RDA) 0.40
Adult Recreational Exerciser 0.75
Adult Competitive Athlete 0.90
Adult Building Muscle Mass 0.90
Dieting Athlete 1.00
Growing Teenage Athlete 1.00

pvt.joker

TiM_rEAPeR wrote: »

22g daily is more then sufficient for ANYONE!
muscles are only made up of 22% protein, everything else is mis educated ignorance.

come off it will you. Can you back up this statement with any research?

LegacyUser

TiM_rEAPeR wrote: »

22g daily is more then sufficient for ANYONE!
muscles are only made up of 22% protein, everything else is mis educated ignorance.

lol - I'm laughing at you. How incorrect you are.

Hornd

No, no it's not.

Did you read the article?

It clearly states that amino acids such as glutamine, isoleusine, valine, arginine etc can be converted into glucose. Glucose can be stored as fat.

Protein is broken down into these amino acids and then can be converted into glucose by gluconeogenesis. I fail to see your point.

Hanley

Hornd wrote: »

Did you read the article?

It clearly states that amino acids such as glutamine, isoleusine, valine, arginine etc can be converted into glucose. Glucose can be stored as fat.

Protein is broken down into these amino acids and then can be converted into glucose by gluconeogenesis. I fail to see your point.

Lol he doesn't need to read the article. He's right.

Protein has 4kcals per gram. Fat has 9kcals per gram.

Protein can be STORED as fat in your body via gluconeogenesis, but it doesn't more than double in energy levels and turn into fat.

Hornd

Im not sure i understand what your trying to say. The glucose can be stored as body fat. And body fat is equal to 9 kcal per gram.

How can it be stored as body fat and not have 9 kcal per gram.

davyjose

Hornd wrote: »

Im not sure i understand what your trying to say. The glucose can be stored as body fat. And body fat is equal to 9 kcal per gram.

How can it be stored as body fat and not have 9 kcal per gram.

He means, if Protein is 4kcals per gram, how does it suddenly become 9kcals per gram? It doesn't.

davyjose

TiM_rEAPeR wrote: »

22g daily is more then sufficient for ANYONE!
muscles are only made up of 22% protein, everything else is mis educated ignorance.

This is the third or fourth wild statement you've made on here, along with milk and wheat being detrimental to one's health. This one takes the biscuit* though. I'm starting to believe a little Trollism might be going on.

*Lactose/Gluten free, of course.

Hanley

davyjose wrote: »

He means, if Protein is 4kcals per gram, how does it suddenly become 9kcals per gram? It doesn't.

Thank you. For every gram of protein you've "over" what you should have, it's not going to be stored as a gram of fat.

It might take several grams of protein to be stored as a gram of fat. The protein has been TURNED INTO fat, it's being STORED as fat.

Hornd

Yes it does!

Protein (4kcal) turns to amino acids (~4kcal) turns to glucose (5kcal) turns to fat (9kcal).

Hornd

It might take several grams of protein to be stored as a gram of fat.

I am clearly aware of this. I never said that. He said that protein cant be turned into fat. I said it could.

Hornd

For every gram of protein you've "over" what you should have, it's not going to be stored as a gram of fat.
It might take several grams of protein to be stored as a gram of fat.

I am clearly aware of this. I never said that. He said that protein cant be turned into fat. I said it could.

Hanley

Hornd wrote: »

I am clearly aware of this. I never said that. He said that protein cant be turned into fat. I said it could.

Yeah and lead can be turned into gold.

You sell enough lead (maybe 10 tons) and you can buy a kilo of gold.

It's a stupid argument.

Of course consuming too much protein can lead to fat gain. It's a simple bloody equation - Kcals in < Kcals out = weight (fat) gain, regardless of source. BUT you're going to have to consume A LOT of fcuking protein to see any fat gain directly attributable to the protein.

The process of change happens inside your body. It's a storage issue. You can throw a magic potion on some chicken and have it turn into butter.

pvt.joker

Hanley wrote: »

It's a stupid argument.

+1 it's descending into a contest of wording now, rather than a scientific discussion.

Hornd

Of course consuming too much protein can lead to fat gain.

Thank you hanley. I dont know what the big problem was here. Trib said "Protein can't turn to fat, it will be excreted". I said he was wrong. Then he said no hes not and you backed him up saying "Lol he doesn't need to read the article. He's right".

So now your agreeing with me by saying that protein can indeed be turned into fat.

kevpants

If my aunt had balls how much protein would it take before she would start to become my uncle?

Hanley

Hornd wrote: »

Thank you hanley. I dont know what the big problem was here. Trib said "Protein can't turn to fat, it will be excreted". I said he was wrong. Then he said no hes not and you backed him up saying "Lol he doesn't need to read the article. He's right".

So now your agreeing with me by saying that protein can indeed be turned into fat.

Yeeeeeeahhhh that's it. That's exactly it. Listen, stop trying to twist words. Every single fcuking person reading this knows we're arguing different points.

How about this, I'll give you some whey and you turn it into olive oil. If you can do that, I'l agree that protein can be turned into fat.

For the last time....

IT'S NOT BEING TURNED INTO "FAT" IT'S BEING STORED AS FAT

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

If my aunt had balls how much protein would it take before she would start to become my uncle?

22 grams. Duh

Hornd

I never twisted any words. Go back and read the thread from the start. I said trib was wrong just like what your saying now. But you came into the arguement and that he was right. Now you changed your mind. I dont see what i have done wrong.

kevpants

Hanley wrote: »

22 grams. Duh

Cheers H I'll let Auntie Mike know.

Brian?

Hornd wrote: »

Yes it does!

Protein (4kcal) turns to amino acids (~4kcal) turns to glucose (5kcal) turns to fat (9kcal).

See what you're doing there is completly disregarding a basic law of physics.

You just processed something and created energy.

Energy can neither created or destroyed, it just changes form.

If you have 4Kcal of protein, your body is going to use energy to process it into amino acids, turn this into glucose and then to fat. This means the net kcals after the process MUST be less than what you started with.

Hornd

Yes i understand that. Sorry if it didnt make this clear but it didnt mean 1 unit of protein turns into 1 unit of amino acids which turns into 1 unit of glucose etc. I just said that they convert into these nutrients which have these values.

Brian?

Hornd wrote: »

Yes i understand that. Sorry if it didnt make this clear but it didnt mean 1 unit of protein turns into 1 unit of amino acids which turns into 1 unit of glucose etc. I just said that they convert into these nutrients which have these values.

Fair enough, you forgot the essential /gram part of kcal/g.

t-ha

tribulus

My point was he doesn't need to worry about a bit of extra protein causing fat gain. I was trying to give simple advice, rather than be extremely pedantic
accurate with any scientific terms which I think is what Hanley was pointing out.

Far too often what should be a simple Q & A type thread gets derailed into ^^^

mloc

In any case, gluconeogenesis only really occurs in times of glucose starvation; e.g. if you are not eating carbs. In this case, the amino acids will probably be converted to glucose to provide "emergency" fuel; its a body backup system.

However, if you are in a gluconeogenesis state, then you're body is certainly not going to be storing glucose as fat; the two states are somewhat mutually exclusive.

In short... if you're body is so starved of calories that its breaking down proteins to use as energy its bloody well not going to be storing them as fat, so don't worry. It's a moot argument.

Hornd

My point was he doesn't need to worry about a bit of extra protein causing fat gain. I was trying to give simple advice, rather than be extremely pedantic
accurate with any scientific terms which I think is what Hanley was pointing out.

Far too often what should be a simple Q & A type thread gets derailed into ^^^

Thats fine man. I know what you mean when you say it should be kept simple but just be careful with what you say. I couldnt read that and not say something. Because theres a big difference between saying that protein cant be turned into fat and the excess will be excreted and that excess protein is unlikely to make you fat.

Hanley

Hornd wrote: »

Thats fine man. I know what you mean when you say it should be kept simple but just be careful with what you say. I couldnt read that and not say something. Because theres a big difference between saying that protein cant be turned into fat and the excess will be excreted and that excess protein is unlikely to make you fat.

Well like Mloc pointed out, if you want to be extremely pedantic like you are being with Tribulus, then you should have informed us gluconeogenesis only occurs when starved of carbs. And that's a situation in which you're extremely unlikely to add bodyfat anyway.

Hornd

In all honesty i dont think i was extremely pedantic. He said protein cant be turned to fat and excess will be excreted which now we have agreed is wrong.

Gluconeogenesis can indeed and most often does occur with type II diabetes, low carb intake and periods of intense exercise. But this doesnt mean that its impossible to gain bodyfat. Finish a long cardio session, your body is glycogen is depleted, have a protein shake, gluconeogenesis.

Or on the other hand eat a load of protein and the extra calories will be store as fat.

In the end it doest matter. I didnt really want to get into a huge argueement i just wanted to point out something.

BraziliaNZ

But how much does one need to be strong and healthy? I mean currently the only protein I eat daily are a can of tuna and a piece of chicken/turkey/fish for dinner. I'm thinking that's about 70g a day. I weigh 88kg. I squat 120 and bench 90, for about 6 reps each is my max. How come I can get by on so little protein? does it depend on the person?

t-ha

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

But how much does one need to be strong and healthy? I mean currently the only protein I eat daily are a can of tuna and a piece of chicken/turkey/fish for dinner. I'm thinking that's about 70g a day. I weigh 88kg. I squat 120 and bench 90, for about 6 reps each is my max. How come I can get by on so little protein? does it depend on the person?

There's more to strength than muscle mass. Also, there's some protein in most foods (veg, bread, rice, sauces etc.) so your intake is probably higher than you think. I'd say you're fine on your current intake but you'ld probably stick on a good bit of muscle pretty quick if you bumped it up - you should give it a go for a few weeks and see what happens.

rubadub

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

But how much does one need to be strong and healthy?

A lot of RDAs are the bare minimum required, so the RDA of Vit C may be just enough to stave off scurvy. So rather than look for the minimum amount you really want the optimum amount. So the RDA might be 100mg, but you will be able to get 1000mg pills for daily use.

A lot of these studies are done in hospitals with bed ridden patients, so they might survive on low amounts of protein, but if you want optimal muscle growth then you would take far more.

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

How come I can get by on so little protein?

If you got more in you might see more improvements, (might)