July 12th...

Quality

Whats your opinion on this marching business?

And the burning of the tricolour up the North?

latenia

I think they're a bunch of weirdos.

pvt.joker

Quality wrote: »

Whats your opinion on this marching business?

And the burning of the tricolour up the North?

What's YOUR opinion on it?

Holsten

lolwut

Bit more info needed.

marco murphy

I personally don't give a shít. It's tough on the people that since childhood had to watch these particullar bands go through their areas. I know most nationalists will be either away for the day or will stay in. Anyway, I'll be watching BBCs ''exclusive'' coverage of ''the 12th'', and get a good look at the gay uniforms and big drums.

You'll see some drunkards that these events attract.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wCde30drFmU

SantaHoe

Aw isn't that cute... people dressing up in funny clothes together and pretending life isn't completely meaningless.
I'd buy that for a dollar.

Dudess

I'm not a fan of it. It can be hostile and triumphalist. To defend it by comparing it to St Patrick's Day is just ludicrous. Any catholics I know from the North say, depending on the area you're in, things can be extremely intimidating. Not so much in the countryside, but in urban areas, and obviously Belfast in particular.

I think it's ugly. The Orange Order is extremely antiquated - some pockets of it seem quite sinister. As for burning the tricolour, leave the hillbillies at it. Speaking of hillbillies, there is the belief that the term comes from "billy boys" - referring to the Ulster presbyterians who emigrated to the Appalachians and other parts of the Deep South. I'd believe it.
BBC Northern Ireland did a feature on July 12th one year - I think the year after Drumcree - and there was a woman with a skinhead mullet thing and her three and four-year-old kids had the same - redneck central. She had the kids already filled to the brim with hate. She wasn't your usual run-of-the-mill bigot, I remember being astounded by how much of a lowlife she seemed.

And of course knackers are just gonna use it as an excuse to be violent and rowdy...

marco murphy

Correct.

Apocryphal attribution to isolated denizens of Appalachian Mountains,(Eastern USA) descendants of some of the earliest Scotch-English settlers, who seem to have had some proclivity for naming their children "William" (familiarly "Bill")and some not inconsiderable inclination to incestuous sexual congress. More recently, the term is used to describe any rural resident,especially in the Southern USA and particularly those living in rather rough-hewn conditions, embracing noticably parochial ideologies and a generally hostile attitude.

And just a flashback,

1998: Children die in Drumcree protests
Three young brothers have been murdered in a loyalist arson attack in Ballymoney, Northern Ireland.

The boys - Richard Quinn, 11, Mark Quinn, 9, and Jason Quinn, 7 - were asleep in their beds when a petrol bomb was thrown through a window at the rear of their terraced house at about 0430 BST.

Their mother Chrissie, 29, her boyfriend Raymond Craig, 31 and a family friend, Christine Archibald, 18, escaped with minor injuries and are suffering from shock.

The Quinns were Catholics living on the predominantly Protestant Carnany estate, but they were accepted by the community and attended a Protestant school. Mr Craig is also a Protestant.

A fourth brother, Lee, was staying with his grandmother.

Threatening letters

Chief Constable of the RUC Ronnie Flanagan said: "What happened last night wasn't protest. We believe we're investigating the sectarian murder of three children."

The attack comes after a week of protests by Orangemen demanding access to the mainly nationalist Garvaghy Road as part of their annual march at Drumcree church.

Police dispersed a demonstration and barricades on the main road outside the Carnany estate last night.

Over the past week Catholic and mixed families across the county have received abuse and threatening letters.

The Orange Order's Co Armagh Chaplain Rev William Bingham expressed his sorrow to his loyalist congregation: "No road is worth a life let alone three lives of three little boys."

Local MP and leader of the DUP Ian Paisley has visited the scene and described the murders as "diabolical" and "repugnant".

All parties have appealed for calm after six hours of talks in Armagh broke down yesterday.

Nationalist residents of the Lower Ormeau Road in Belfast have already announced that they will not block Orange parades as a mark of respect and the RUC have scaled down their forces.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2500503.stm

Bluetonic

Quality wrote: »

Whats your opinion on this marching business?

It should be promoted as a festival. After all it is part of this islands culture, like it or not.

Quality wrote: »

And the burning of the tricolour up the North?

It's tit for tat with nationalists still burning the Union Jack.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I beleive it's called freedom.

Dudess

That wasn't the question Ikky Poo. I get annoyed when people use the "it's freedom" response to legitimate criticism of something - in this case it's a celebration of sectarianism. So what if they're free to do so? That's not the point. Others are also "free" to point out how ugly it is and how its purpose in some areas is simply to antagonise.

Captain Slow IRL

Dudess wrote: »

I think it's ugly. The Orange Order is extremely antiquated - some pockets of it seem quite sinister. As for burning the tricolour, leave the hillbillies at it. Speaking of hillbillies, there is the belief that the term comes from "billy boys" - referring to the Ulster presbyterians who emigrated to the Appalachians and other parts of the Deep South. I'd believe it.

The KKK was set up by the same group of people - afaik, if you were catholic, it was as bad as being black in those parts.

Why burn the flag? - what have the Irish done to provoke this?

Slidey

Ah jaysus here who opened this bloody can of wor... oh it was her...

I can see this hitting the bad room or being locked.

Well for years I have seen droves of NI registered cars hit sligo every week of the 12th.

You dont see it happening on Paddys day now do ya.

I dont believe either crowd do much flag burning anymore, I would imagine it has something to do with the Kyoto agreement:cool:

Dudess

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

The KKK was set up by the same group of people - afaik, if you were catholic, it was as bad as being black in those parts.

Allegedly I think. A lot of these views are speculative.

johnnyrotten

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I beleive it's called freedom.

Freedom my hole!
People afraid to go outside their front door:eek:

Dudess

Bluetonic wrote: »

It should be promoted as a festival. After all it is part of this islands culture, like it or not.

I don't believe anything so hate-filled should be promoted as a festival.

Dudess

johnnyrotten wrote: »

Freedom my hole!
People afraid to go outside their front door:eek:

Yeah, what about the "freedom" of certain catholics? Freedom of speech and expression shouldn't impinge on others.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dudess wrote: »

That wasn't the question Ikky Poo. I get annoyed when people use the "it's freedom" response to legitimate criticism of something - in this case it's a celebration of sectarianism. So what if they're free to do so? That's not the point. Others are also "free" to point out how ugly it is and how its purpose in some areas is simply to antagonise.

jonnyrotten wrote:

Freedom my hole!
People afraid to go outside their front door

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, what about the "freedom" of certain catholics? Freedom of speech and expression shouldn't impinge on others.

Woah, easy ladies! I was asked what I thought of the march, and if they want to march and burn flags then they should be free to do so. Of course, you should be free to criticise, which you do, and I have no problem with that.

If people are breakig the law and committing sectarian crimes, terrorist offenses or intimidation, then someone needs to ask me a different question.

Dudess

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Woah, easy ladies! I was asked what I thought of the march, and if they want to march and burn flags then they should be free to do so.

But it's the event in and of itself: a celebration of triumphalism don't you agree? Not a good thing - even if they're free to do it.

If people are breakig the law and committing sectarian crimes, terrorist offenses or intimidation, then someone needs to ask me a different question.

Goes hand in hand with July 12th tbh.

GhostInTheRuins

They're calling it "Orange-fest" this year to attract tourists lol

marco murphy

Dudess wrote: »

Goes hand in hand with July 12th tbh.

Yeh, have a look at news from last night. Fire crews attacked and such.

http://www.ulster.ac.uk/news/images/africas-orange-order.jpg

Dudess

I doubt the Orange Order would be the most racially tolerant organisation there is, but if an African lodge is set up, I'm sure they'd be fine... it means more recognition. Gotta love hypocrisy.

misslt

Coming from a mixed town in South Armagh, I've seen unionists/whatever use 12th July to run riot and intimidate nationalists living in the town. Most nationalists in my town fcuk off out of it the weekend of the 12th. The town is bedecked with red, white and blue, Union Jacks are put up everywhere which I don't think is particularly fair - both sides of the community live in the town.

You can guarantee tomorrow morning the town will be wrecked - broken glass, etc - there'll be more than one fight too.

It's a bit pathetic that hundreds of years after something has happened people still use it as an excuse to get drunk and beat each other up..

Dudess

But they're "free" to do it, misslt...

Quality

I dont think you can compare the st patricks day parade to the 12th of July marches. You have people come from all over the world to celebrate St Patricks day. It is more to do with being Irish than celebrating the whole religious side. It welcomes all cultures, walks of life.

I dont have a problem with the marchcing in itself. Once it is done in a peaceful way. Saying that I would not support it, I wont be bringing the family up to cheer on the marchers.

The bonfires and the burning of the tricolour in my opinion is inciting hatred.

I still find it intimidating to drive through Belfast. Those flags are up there for a reason.






In saying that, I dont mean to undermean any of the good work and progress done by all sides in the fight for peace.

I just feel that every year this is a step back rather than forward.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dudess wrote: »

But it's the event in and of itself: a celebration of triumphalism don't you agree? Not a good thing - even if they're free to do it.

Goes hand in hand with July 12th tbh.

Don't you agree that that's a loaded question? I think what's intented and what actually happens when a bunch of scumbags get there hands on it are tow ompletely different things? Unless, of course you want to point me in the direction of and official site promoting illegal activities? Or cry conspiracy?

And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?

marco murphy

I doubt the Orange Order would be the most racially tolerant organisation there is, but if an African lodge is set up, I'm sure they'd be fine... it means more recognition. Gotta love hypocrisy.

Its all about money, they donate into Paisleys pocket

And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?

Thats silly. I'll say no more.

misslt

Dudess wrote: »

But they're "free" to do it, misslt...

Unfortunately thats true, but a little maturity and decency might go a long way...:rolleyes:

Quality

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?

TBH, I dont think that yo can compare the Irish cultural hatred of the English to the situation in Northern Ireland around July the 12th.

Dudess

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Don't you agree that that's a loaded question? I think what's intented and what actually happens when a bunch of scumbags get there hands on it are tow ompletely different things? Unless, of course you want to point me in the direction of and official site promoting illegal activities? Or cry conspiracy?

What's intended is triumphalism - it's not some sort of light-hearted, good-natured celebration. It's intimidating and hostile. You'd be naive to think otherwise.

And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?

What's that got to do with the question being raised here? Does that somehow legitimise the sectarianism of 12th July?
I detest shinners and I'm pretty much an anglophile so this is not me pushing some sort of agenda, but that's not gonna make me become that bit more tolerant of the bigotry on the unionist side - bigotry that led to the republican campaign of violence. I do find people have become more relaxed about it down here (not aiming that at you specifically Ikky Poo).

misslt

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?

No - a large part of Irish history is made up by the English and their invasion or whatever, and the subsequent hatred - but the Irish identity is not based on it.

A large part of Irish culture may be based on the British invasion of Ireland, but not on the hatred of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dudess wrote: »

What's intended is triumphalism - it's not some sort of light-hearted, good-natured celebration. It's intimidating and hostile. You'd be naive to think otherwise.

What's that got to do with the question being raised here? Does that somehow legitimise the sectarianism of 12th July?
I detest shinners and I'm pretty much an anglophile so this is not me pushing some sort of agenda, but that's not gonna make me become that bit more tolerant of the bigotry on the unionist side - bigotry that led to the republican campaign of violence. I do find people have become more relaxed about it down here (not aiming that at you specifically Ikky Poo).

It's a bunch of 60 year olds dressing up in bowler hats!!! (again, speicific to the march as per the opening question). My comments on violence and extra-curricular activities has been made known, please refer to original posts.

Dudess

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It's a bunch of 60 year olds dressing up in bowler hats!!!

... being triumphalist. Marking a triumph of sectarianism. The event in and of itself is based on sectarian divides and one-upmanship. Sure they're free to celebrate it but they can't expect respect for it.

How come you brought up a part of Irish culture being defined by hatred of the English? I don't think that's relevant other than as currency for "well we can't talk, look at how some Irish people act towards the British" type arguments, which is pointless. It doesn't justify the bigotry of the Orange Order, which was around long before Sinn Féin.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dudess wrote: »

... being triumphalist. Marking a triumph of sectarianism.

How come you brought up a part of Irish culture being defined by hatred of the English?

They can be as triumphalist as they want, I honestly, do not give a toss as long as they do it peacefully. Triumpalism is not a crime.

I brought up the cultural reference because it appeared that people were denouncing the parade because it was based on hate. And I still believe that a part of our culture is based on hate. Our histrory is based on repeated invasions by the English, but our culture (how we react to it) is partially based on hate.

Dragan

Look, if a load of people from the same country want to find a reason to hate each other then let them off.

How many Northern Ireland flags fly in Northern Ireland?

Hate to break it to those folk but they are not English.

They scrape in as being British because a long time ago someone wanted their fathers and grandfathers to build ships.

Surely that is something to be proud of?

marco murphy

I detest shinners and I'm pretty much an anglophile so this is not me pushing some sort of agenda

What would shinners have to do with it?

http://tubeimage.com/files/bs8527vk0iluwdl055h6.jpg

Dudess

I was just saying I'm not pushing a republican agenda as I don't have time for republican zealots either.

Quality download - sums up 12th July pretty accurately.

marco murphy

Dudess wrote: »

I was just saying I'm not pushing a republican agenda as I don't have time for republican zealots either.

Quality download - sums up 12th July pretty accurately.

Hmm, I don't see why that was worth a ''I despise the shinners'', just to add credibility to your argument. The father of Republicanism was a Protestant, and Republicanism is based on the prinicples of liberty, equality and fraternity. Therefore there is no religious superiority. I'm a Republican, does that mean I can't criticize the parades? I agree with you mostly, but to throw a dig at the shinners and general Republicanism in fear that it would void your argument is silly.

Dudess

When I say "shinners" I'm referring to little scumbags in Celtic jerseys like the ones at the Love Ulster parade - the type with the "the ra are fukin maaaaaad bai" attitude (if they were from Cork) and who don't have an iota about Irish politics or history.
And I also mean those who just rant and rave against anything remotely English but don't say anything constructive (quite a few of them on Boards) and constantly throw out the tiresome "West Brit" phrase every so often.

I should have made that clearer.

I don't have a problem with republican ideology at all - in fact I subscribe to it (I have a HUGE problem with the violence though).

Poblachtach wrote: »

I'm a Republican

With a username like Poblachtach? Get outta town!

Mossy Monk

I see no orange men marching outside so I couldn't really give a ****.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Sherifu

You know when you've been tangoed!

PrivateEye

http://i33.tinypic.com/xgjukn.jpg

Orange politics explained

darkman2

'Orangefest' - dont they mean 'Bigotfest'?


TBH society up there especially on the Protestant side is locked in the 1600's. Do they not find this embarrasing

darkman2

Poblachtach wrote: »

What would shinners have to do with it?

http://tubeimage.com/files/bs8527vk0iluwdl055h6.jpg

Thats pretty funny actually.

PrivateEye

The Orange Order, Republican Sinn Féin (the breakaway who haven't accepted the Dail yet :rolleyes: ) and the sort are embarrasing for all of us, because sadly you'll find people out there who think the country is still populated by their sort.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74511
That article, from before the planned Love Ulster march, has good info on the Orange Order. They've been happy enough to hang around with the likes of Johnny Adair for years, and one or two of them have let their thoughts on immigrants be known over the years too.

If you think the Orange lot in Ireland are bad, you should see them in Scotland for what its worth.... very bogey far-right wing connections, and a few of them even turn out to boo down the annual Bloody Sunday march.

To be honest the UK doesn't seem all that interested in the North, most British people see it as a waste of tax money, and I'm sure they'd much rather up and leave. What republicans need to think about is that a single-state island will probably need a new flag/anthem and god knows what else...I know the idea of a 'socialist republic' in Connollys vision say is a nice one, but in reality a nasty civil war would be far more likely.... the next few decades will be all about compromise.

"Understanding the reactionary origins of the Orange Order is central is understanding why the claims that the marches represent 'Protestant culture' is about on a par with claiming a Ku Klux Klan march represents 'white culture'. Indeed the very promotion of a separate 'Protestant' culture can only be seen as deeply reactionary in the context of the 6 counties. The term 'Protestant' culture is never used to include the Protestant republicans of 1798 or 1934, for instance. As such it's real meaning can only be 'anti-Catholic'"

from http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws99/ws57_order.html

flanum

i wonder what fartfront have to say?

darkman2

You know what sort of society it is when this makes headlines


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7494526.stm

KnifeWRENCH

The whole concept of The Orange Order and this march is purely pathetic - OK so they have the right to march wherever they want. But why do they have to make a big deal out of it and dedicate a whole day into celebrating sectarianism? It's extremely obnoxious, they just want to antagonise the Nationalist community.
I'm not a die-hard Republican but I have absolutely no respect for someone who, in this day and age, still thinks that by wearing a silly costume and going for a walk they are making a big clever political statement.

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

They're calling it "Orange-fest" this year to attract tourists lol

Lol, makes it sound like people go there and throw oranges at each other, like the tomato festival they have in Spain!

truecrippler

It's my dogs second birthday today, I'm not fussed .

j1smithy

These parades should be banned, not for being sectarian, but for being a waste of time and money, not to mention being incredibly boring. In fact all parades should be banned, they are the greatest waste tbh...

The orange parades, well some of them at least, are about provoking people that want to be offended. Those people need a good dose of reality and modern thinking, Neanderthals, the lot of them.

For one thing, I'm glad we don't have to pay for the annual clean up after that nonsense.