Major delays/cancellation Dublin Airport [9-7-08]

MOH

Following an air traffic control problem earlier, there's major delays in and out of Dublin for the rest of the day, plus quite a lot of cancellations - only Aer Lingus ones listed on the airport website, but presume there may be others not listed yet.

Fratton Fred

again.

For this to happen to a major airport once is shocking. for the same thing to happen again a few weeks later is just unbelievable.

daheff

this is the 2nd time in just over a week this has happened.

where do people stand on compensation for cancelled /delayed flights?

MOH

daheff wrote: »

this is the 2nd time in just over a week this has happened.

where do people stand on compensation for cancelled /delayed flights?

According to RTE, Aer Lingus have cancelled all flights after 5pm (expect 3 US ones, a Budapest and one Heathrow), passengers can re book free of charge or get a refund if they choose not to travel (wonder will they refund taxes and charges?). No mention of other airlines.

daheff

MOH wrote: »

According to RTE, Aer Lingus have cancelled all flights after 5pm (expect 3 US ones, a Budapest and one Heathrow), passengers can re book free of charge or get a refund if they choose not to travel (wonder will they refund taxes and charges?). No mention of other airlines.

But arent passengers entitled to compensation under EU airline transport laws?

therecklessone

daheff wrote: »

But arent passengers entitled to compensation under EU airline transport laws?

Since the cancellation is due to circumstances out of the airlines control I believe the answer is no.

MOH

therecklessone wrote: »

Since the cancellation is due to circumstances out of the airlines control I believe the answer is no.

They're not entitled to additional compensation, but I'd imagine theyd be entitled to a refund.

Victor

37 Cancelled and 45 Delayed (typical delays 1-3 hours, some delays of 8-10 hours) across the following:

Aer Arann
Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Southwest
Centralwings
Csa
First Choice Airline
Futura Gael
Iberia
Jetx
Lufthansa
Luxair
Ryanair
SasAer Arann
Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Southwest
Centralwings
Csa
First Choice Airline
Futura Gael
Iberia
Jetx
Lufthansa
Luxair
Ryanair
Sas

Aer Lingus and Ryanair are hit badly because they are the dominant operators.

Trampas

I am suppose to fly with aer lingus to london tomorrow morning to catch a flight to bangkok.

fcuk you dublin airport

daheff

MOH wrote: »

They're not entitled to additional compensation, but I'd imagine theyd be entitled to a refund.

Fair enough...but not much good to ya if you still need to fly!

Stimpyone

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

Trampas

Stimpyone wrote: »

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

probably just in ireland you don't need a back up

r3nu4l

Trampas wrote: »

probably just in ireland you don't need a back up

*Cough* Heathrow Terminal 5 *cough*

Bluetonic

Trampas wrote: »

I am suppose to fly with aer lingus to london tomorrow morning to catch a flight to bangkok.

fcuk you dublin airport

I presume you mean, the IAA - not the fault of Dublin Airport

Bluetonic

Stimpyone wrote: »

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

It's been back up a good while now, they are still running it at low capacity until they identify what the original problem is/was.

O'Leary has been on saying there is a flight of his on the tarmac in London since 14:00 and the IAA are saying the next available landing slot is midnight in Dublin, far from a happy camper.

Hopefully Cork are making full use of the problems and are charging large(r) landing fees from diverted flights so as to get the debt paid off

probe

Anyone inconvenienced by the Dublin Airport ATC/Radar failures may wish to communicate their feelings in writing to the person ultimately responsible:

M Denis RANQUE, CEO
Thales Group
45 rue du VILLIERS
F-92526 NEUILLY-SUR-SEINE CEDEX

Fax +331 5777 8659

www.thalesgroup.com

Increasingly becoming part of the problem, rather than part of the solution? There have been something like five ATC/Radar system failures at Dublin Airport over the past few months.

.probe

irishatco

Stimpyone wrote: »

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

There are a series of backup systems, but none of them enable the ATCOs to work at 100% capacity due to the increased workload associated with identifying aircraft, manual input of flight plan data, and the loss of safety nets such as short-term conflict alerts, minimum safe altitude warnings, and area proximity warnings (encroachment on prohibited airspace)

All airspace capacities are calculated on associated workload, and the tools and safety nets available to each controller.

Put quite simply, it is impossible to run the Dublin ACC airspace at 100% when there is a downgrade on the radar data processing system such as today.

The reduced capacity imposed since this afternoon is prudent given the lack of information available as to why the system keeps failing. Ultimately safety should be the key concern.

My apologies to passengers who are discommoded as a result of today's system failure.

It is ironic Mr O'Leary is in such a critical mood towards his old buddies in Aviation House, he seemed the perfect match for IAA management as their attack dog earlier this year. Ironic too that the IAA has modelled itself as the Ryanair of the ATS world...you reap what you sow...

Stimpyone

Thanks for the update irishatco. I'm sure everybody involved are doing their best in the situation.

I've always thought something this important had built in redundancies or a second radar system separate to the first but with the same capabilities.

Is this not the norm?, is the lack of such a system purely a budgetary one?

irishatco

Stimpyone wrote: »

Thanks for the update irishatco. I'm sure everybody involved are doing their best in the situation.

I've always thought something this important had built in redundancies or a second radar system separate to the first but with the same capabilities.

Is this not the norm?, is the lack of such a system purely a budgetary one?

As I said above, there are a series of redundancies built into the system, but none that are capable of handling the usual airspace capacity due to the increased workload.

To be honest, while I was not party to the spec or design of our current system, the cost associated with providing a 2nd system with the same capabilities as a standby is more than likely prohibitive, and in a cost benefit analysis would appear unjustified at the time of production. The current set-up would have had to pass a safety case as well, which would have looked at the possibility of system failure and the suitability of backup procedures.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The current problems are made more difficult by the fact that engineering and Thales are struggling to find a root cause.

And it is not only the IAA who have experienced system failures, NATS in the UK had a number of shutdowns in 2005 and I recall hearing of a similar problem in Eurocontrol earlier this year (high level airspace in Western Europe)

darkman2

If this happened at Heathrow heads would be rolling right now.

irishatco

darkman2 wrote: »

If this happened at Heathrow heads would be rolling right now.

In August 2005 the UK's data processing systems failed and produced almost the exact same results as today...on a countrywide scale.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050825/ai_n14905988?tag=rel.res2

The computer at West Drayton near Heathrow went down at 9.30am for just 20 minutes, but the disruption came at a peak time of the year.


Hayden Evans, a controller at the new Swanwick centre and chairman of the Prospect union there, said: 'It was quite a difficult situation. This is the busiest time of the year and people are working flat out.


'This was a major problem as far as controlling planes is concerned. It was a pretty massive achievement to get the system back to normal by 11am.'


The computer at West Drayton produces flight progress strips for use by controllers. The pieces of cardboard show the last instructions given to pilots by overseas controllers before they fly into British airspace, including the flight number, call sign and height of the in-bound services. The British controller then assumes responsibility for the flight and issues further instructions.


Controllers' radar screens on which details of the flights appear remained functional throughout and controllers were able to speak to pilots and to controllers overseas to fill in the missing information.


That meant a substantial increase in workload and Nats decided to ground all flights preparing for take off at all the main British airports so that staff could deal with incoming aircraft and other planes already airborne.


A spokesman for Nats said about 80 per cent of capacity had been restored by 9.50am and full capacity was achieved by 11am. But disruption continued as staff struggled to deal with the backlog. No inbound flights had been affected, but short-haul aircraft preparing to take off for British destinations had been delayed.

That followed failures in Feb 2005, in 2002 and in 2000.



I am not aware of any heads rolling.

ZENER

Trampas wrote: »

I am suppose to fly with aer lingus to london tomorrow morning to catch a flight to bangkok.

fcuk you dublin airport

DAA are not at fault here, radar is the domain of the IAA. A DAA spokesperson earlier today announced that all the DAA facilities are up to standard and working.

Scant comfort I know, especially having just come back from Frankfurt and seeing how things should be done. Sigh . . good old Ireland !!!

ZEN

irishatco

ZENER wrote: »

DAA are not at fault here, radar is the domain of the IAA.

Correct.

ZENER wrote: »

A DAA spokesperson earlier today announced that all the DAA facilities are up to standard and working.

Is she for real? M1 taxiway disintegrating last week after what, 18 months since it was opened?

A chaotic apron caused by works in progress and ever-changing pushback procedures.

Early mornings exacerbated by multiple towing from 11/29 and remote stands.

A poorly laid out taxiway system with no proper RETs (a half-hearted attempt off rwy 28)

ZENER

. . . so you didn't see my tongue firmly pushed into my cheek then . . .

I work at the 'port myself hence the comment about Frankfurt !

ZEN

irishatco

ZENER wrote: »

. . . so you didn't see my tongue firmly pushed into my cheek then . . .

I work at the 'port myself hence the comment about Frankfurt !

ZEN

Apologies.

BenEadir

Hi Guys,

Good to see some people here who know what they are talking about.

Can anyone give me a 'best guess' as to whether my flight to Boston tomorrow scheduled for departure at 11am (EI 133) will be:-

a) Cancelled?
b) Delayed?
c) Depart on time (ish!)?

I'm heading out on a family holiday with two young kids and don't want to get them to the airport at 8am unless I'm going to be actually getting on a flight!!

If no one has a good idea as to whether or not my flight will be affected is it reasonable to assume if the inbound flight from Boston (arriving tomorrow morning sometime?) isn't cancelled, delayed or diverted then it's likely we'll get out on it?

Really appreciate any input. The lack of info from Aer Lingus (why do they take our mobile #'s and email contact details if they don't use them???) is killing me.

Regards,

Ben

Victor

I imagine long haul stuff is given priority.

If there is chaos in the morning, perhaps get a room in one of the airport hotels (the ones on site, not 20 minutes away).

probe

A number of points arise:

1) Backup isn’t backup unless it is 100% backup in terms of capacity. A bank would not run an ATM system without a backup system that was capable of handling the same demand as the main system. A bank with 500 million bank accounts will use a test system with 500 million bank accounts to test new software before putting it online. A cheapo test system that has just 250 million accounts loaded on it won’t do.

2) An airline would not run a reservation system without a backup that could deliver the same transaction processing capacity in an emergency, (aside from Ryanair!).

3) ATC is a far more serious business than airline reservations or cash withdrawals at ATMs for safety and infrastructural reliability reasons.
One has to ask oneself the question what has changed in the Thales system at Dublin Airport since last year. Has the software been “updated”, and if so why can’t the older version which seemed to work in 2007 be used? Have any elements of the hardware been modified?

Any complex software/hardware system should be capable of restoring the system to a proven, customer accepted, “day one” working system, at short notice.

This is nothing short of gross incompetence by IAA/DAA/Thales and anyone else involved. Has Thales advised IAA that the system in place is in any way inadequate to provide continuity of service? Where can one find the tender/specification document for this system?

As someone said earlier, heads should roll.

.probe

irishatco

BenEadir wrote: »

If no one has a good idea as to whether or not my flight will be affected is it reasonable to assume if the inbound flight from Boston (arriving tomorrow morning sometime?) isn't cancelled, delayed or diverted then it's likely we'll get out on it?

If there are no more problems with the system then I'd be about 98% certain you'll get out Ben. If there are further problems however...:(

I wish I could give you a definite answer Ben but I can't.

One think I will say is that there is no guarantee that the a/c used to fly in from Boston will be the one used to fly back out again.

probe

BenEadir wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Good to see some people here who know what they are talking about.

Can anyone give me a 'best guess' as to whether my flight to Boston tomorrow scheduled for departure at 11am (EI 133) will be:-

a) Cancelled?
b) Delayed?
c) Depart on time (ish!)?

I'm heading out on a family holiday with two young kids and don't want to get them to the airport at 8am unless I'm going to be actually getting on a flight!!

If no one has a good idea as to whether or not my flight will be affected is it reasonable to assume if the inbound flight from Boston (arriving tomorrow morning sometime?) isn't cancelled, delayed or diverted then it's likely we'll get out on it?

Really appreciate any input. The lack of info from Aer Lingus (why do they take our mobile #'s and email contact details if they don't use them???) is killing me.

Regards,

Ben

Who the hell can say? This is a complex software/hardware system that has been negligently put in place by a team of morons. There are no quick fixes to problems of this nature.

.probe

Victor

Can we tone done the language slightly?