Major delays/cancellation Dublin Airport [9-7-08]

MOH

Following an air traffic control problem earlier, there's major delays in and out of Dublin for the rest of the day, plus quite a lot of cancellations - only Aer Lingus ones listed on the airport website, but presume there may be others not listed yet.

Fratton Fred

again.

For this to happen to a major airport once is shocking. for the same thing to happen again a few weeks later is just unbelievable.

daheff

this is the 2nd time in just over a week this has happened.

where do people stand on compensation for cancelled /delayed flights?

MOH

daheff wrote: »

this is the 2nd time in just over a week this has happened.

where do people stand on compensation for cancelled /delayed flights?

According to RTE, Aer Lingus have cancelled all flights after 5pm (expect 3 US ones, a Budapest and one Heathrow), passengers can re book free of charge or get a refund if they choose not to travel (wonder will they refund taxes and charges?). No mention of other airlines.

daheff

MOH wrote: »

According to RTE, Aer Lingus have cancelled all flights after 5pm (expect 3 US ones, a Budapest and one Heathrow), passengers can re book free of charge or get a refund if they choose not to travel (wonder will they refund taxes and charges?). No mention of other airlines.

But arent passengers entitled to compensation under EU airline transport laws?

therecklessone

daheff wrote: »

But arent passengers entitled to compensation under EU airline transport laws?

Since the cancellation is due to circumstances out of the airlines control I believe the answer is no.

MOH

therecklessone wrote: »

Since the cancellation is due to circumstances out of the airlines control I believe the answer is no.

They're not entitled to additional compensation, but I'd imagine theyd be entitled to a refund.

Victor

37 Cancelled and 45 Delayed (typical delays 1-3 hours, some delays of 8-10 hours) across the following:

Aer Arann
Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Southwest
Centralwings
Csa
First Choice Airline
Futura Gael
Iberia
Jetx
Lufthansa
Luxair
Ryanair
SasAer Arann
Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Southwest
Centralwings
Csa
First Choice Airline
Futura Gael
Iberia
Jetx
Lufthansa
Luxair
Ryanair
Sas

Aer Lingus and Ryanair are hit badly because they are the dominant operators.

Trampas

I am suppose to fly with aer lingus to london tomorrow morning to catch a flight to bangkok.

fcuk you dublin airport

daheff

MOH wrote: »

They're not entitled to additional compensation, but I'd imagine theyd be entitled to a refund.

Fair enough...but not much good to ya if you still need to fly!

Stimpyone

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

Trampas

Stimpyone wrote: »

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

probably just in ireland you don't need a back up

r3nu4l

Trampas wrote: »

probably just in ireland you don't need a back up

*Cough* Heathrow Terminal 5 *cough*

Bluetonic

Trampas wrote: »

I am suppose to fly with aer lingus to london tomorrow morning to catch a flight to bangkok.

fcuk you dublin airport

I presume you mean, the IAA - not the fault of Dublin Airport

Bluetonic

Stimpyone wrote: »

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

It's been back up a good while now, they are still running it at low capacity until they identify what the original problem is/was.

O'Leary has been on saying there is a flight of his on the tarmac in London since 14:00 and the IAA are saying the next available landing slot is midnight in Dublin, far from a happy camper.

Hopefully Cork are making full use of the problems and are charging large(r) landing fees from diverted flights so as to get the debt paid off

probe

Anyone inconvenienced by the Dublin Airport ATC/Radar failures may wish to communicate their feelings in writing to the person ultimately responsible:

M Denis RANQUE, CEO
Thales Group
45 rue du VILLIERS
F-92526 NEUILLY-SUR-SEINE CEDEX

Fax +331 5777 8659

www.thalesgroup.com

Increasingly becoming part of the problem, rather than part of the solution? There have been something like five ATC/Radar system failures at Dublin Airport over the past few months.

.probe

irishatco

Stimpyone wrote: »

Anybody know when the Radar is expected to be back up?. Is it standard practice not to have a back up?

There are a series of backup systems, but none of them enable the ATCOs to work at 100% capacity due to the increased workload associated with identifying aircraft, manual input of flight plan data, and the loss of safety nets such as short-term conflict alerts, minimum safe altitude warnings, and area proximity warnings (encroachment on prohibited airspace)

All airspace capacities are calculated on associated workload, and the tools and safety nets available to each controller.

Put quite simply, it is impossible to run the Dublin ACC airspace at 100% when there is a downgrade on the radar data processing system such as today.

The reduced capacity imposed since this afternoon is prudent given the lack of information available as to why the system keeps failing. Ultimately safety should be the key concern.

My apologies to passengers who are discommoded as a result of today's system failure.

It is ironic Mr O'Leary is in such a critical mood towards his old buddies in Aviation House, he seemed the perfect match for IAA management as their attack dog earlier this year. Ironic too that the IAA has modelled itself as the Ryanair of the ATS world...you reap what you sow...

Stimpyone

Thanks for the update irishatco. I'm sure everybody involved are doing their best in the situation.

I've always thought something this important had built in redundancies or a second radar system separate to the first but with the same capabilities.

Is this not the norm?, is the lack of such a system purely a budgetary one?

irishatco

Stimpyone wrote: »

Thanks for the update irishatco. I'm sure everybody involved are doing their best in the situation.

I've always thought something this important had built in redundancies or a second radar system separate to the first but with the same capabilities.

Is this not the norm?, is the lack of such a system purely a budgetary one?

As I said above, there are a series of redundancies built into the system, but none that are capable of handling the usual airspace capacity due to the increased workload.

To be honest, while I was not party to the spec or design of our current system, the cost associated with providing a 2nd system with the same capabilities as a standby is more than likely prohibitive, and in a cost benefit analysis would appear unjustified at the time of production. The current set-up would have had to pass a safety case as well, which would have looked at the possibility of system failure and the suitability of backup procedures.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The current problems are made more difficult by the fact that engineering and Thales are struggling to find a root cause.

And it is not only the IAA who have experienced system failures, NATS in the UK had a number of shutdowns in 2005 and I recall hearing of a similar problem in Eurocontrol earlier this year (high level airspace in Western Europe)

darkman2

If this happened at Heathrow heads would be rolling right now.

irishatco

darkman2 wrote: »

If this happened at Heathrow heads would be rolling right now.

In August 2005 the UK's data processing systems failed and produced almost the exact same results as today...on a countrywide scale.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050825/ai_n14905988?tag=rel.res2

The computer at West Drayton near Heathrow went down at 9.30am for just 20 minutes, but the disruption came at a peak time of the year.


Hayden Evans, a controller at the new Swanwick centre and chairman of the Prospect union there, said: 'It was quite a difficult situation. This is the busiest time of the year and people are working flat out.


'This was a major problem as far as controlling planes is concerned. It was a pretty massive achievement to get the system back to normal by 11am.'


The computer at West Drayton produces flight progress strips for use by controllers. The pieces of cardboard show the last instructions given to pilots by overseas controllers before they fly into British airspace, including the flight number, call sign and height of the in-bound services. The British controller then assumes responsibility for the flight and issues further instructions.


Controllers' radar screens on which details of the flights appear remained functional throughout and controllers were able to speak to pilots and to controllers overseas to fill in the missing information.


That meant a substantial increase in workload and Nats decided to ground all flights preparing for take off at all the main British airports so that staff could deal with incoming aircraft and other planes already airborne.


A spokesman for Nats said about 80 per cent of capacity had been restored by 9.50am and full capacity was achieved by 11am. But disruption continued as staff struggled to deal with the backlog. No inbound flights had been affected, but short-haul aircraft preparing to take off for British destinations had been delayed.

That followed failures in Feb 2005, in 2002 and in 2000.



I am not aware of any heads rolling.

ZENER

Trampas wrote: »

I am suppose to fly with aer lingus to london tomorrow morning to catch a flight to bangkok.

fcuk you dublin airport

DAA are not at fault here, radar is the domain of the IAA. A DAA spokesperson earlier today announced that all the DAA facilities are up to standard and working.

Scant comfort I know, especially having just come back from Frankfurt and seeing how things should be done. Sigh . . good old Ireland !!!

ZEN

irishatco

ZENER wrote: »

DAA are not at fault here, radar is the domain of the IAA.

Correct.

ZENER wrote: »

A DAA spokesperson earlier today announced that all the DAA facilities are up to standard and working.

Is she for real? M1 taxiway disintegrating last week after what, 18 months since it was opened?

A chaotic apron caused by works in progress and ever-changing pushback procedures.

Early mornings exacerbated by multiple towing from 11/29 and remote stands.

A poorly laid out taxiway system with no proper RETs (a half-hearted attempt off rwy 28)

ZENER

. . . so you didn't see my tongue firmly pushed into my cheek then . . .

I work at the 'port myself hence the comment about Frankfurt !

ZEN

irishatco

ZENER wrote: »

. . . so you didn't see my tongue firmly pushed into my cheek then . . .

I work at the 'port myself hence the comment about Frankfurt !

ZEN

Apologies.

BenEadir

Hi Guys,

Good to see some people here who know what they are talking about.

Can anyone give me a 'best guess' as to whether my flight to Boston tomorrow scheduled for departure at 11am (EI 133) will be:-

a) Cancelled?
b) Delayed?
c) Depart on time (ish!)?

I'm heading out on a family holiday with two young kids and don't want to get them to the airport at 8am unless I'm going to be actually getting on a flight!!

If no one has a good idea as to whether or not my flight will be affected is it reasonable to assume if the inbound flight from Boston (arriving tomorrow morning sometime?) isn't cancelled, delayed or diverted then it's likely we'll get out on it?

Really appreciate any input. The lack of info from Aer Lingus (why do they take our mobile #'s and email contact details if they don't use them???) is killing me.

Regards,

Ben

Victor

I imagine long haul stuff is given priority.

If there is chaos in the morning, perhaps get a room in one of the airport hotels (the ones on site, not 20 minutes away).

probe

A number of points arise:

1) Backup isn’t backup unless it is 100% backup in terms of capacity. A bank would not run an ATM system without a backup system that was capable of handling the same demand as the main system. A bank with 500 million bank accounts will use a test system with 500 million bank accounts to test new software before putting it online. A cheapo test system that has just 250 million accounts loaded on it won’t do.

2) An airline would not run a reservation system without a backup that could deliver the same transaction processing capacity in an emergency, (aside from Ryanair!).

3) ATC is a far more serious business than airline reservations or cash withdrawals at ATMs for safety and infrastructural reliability reasons.
One has to ask oneself the question what has changed in the Thales system at Dublin Airport since last year. Has the software been “updated”, and if so why can’t the older version which seemed to work in 2007 be used? Have any elements of the hardware been modified?

Any complex software/hardware system should be capable of restoring the system to a proven, customer accepted, “day one” working system, at short notice.

This is nothing short of gross incompetence by IAA/DAA/Thales and anyone else involved. Has Thales advised IAA that the system in place is in any way inadequate to provide continuity of service? Where can one find the tender/specification document for this system?

As someone said earlier, heads should roll.

.probe

irishatco

BenEadir wrote: »

If no one has a good idea as to whether or not my flight will be affected is it reasonable to assume if the inbound flight from Boston (arriving tomorrow morning sometime?) isn't cancelled, delayed or diverted then it's likely we'll get out on it?

If there are no more problems with the system then I'd be about 98% certain you'll get out Ben. If there are further problems however...:(

I wish I could give you a definite answer Ben but I can't.

One think I will say is that there is no guarantee that the a/c used to fly in from Boston will be the one used to fly back out again.

probe

BenEadir wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Good to see some people here who know what they are talking about.

Can anyone give me a 'best guess' as to whether my flight to Boston tomorrow scheduled for departure at 11am (EI 133) will be:-

a) Cancelled?
b) Delayed?
c) Depart on time (ish!)?

I'm heading out on a family holiday with two young kids and don't want to get them to the airport at 8am unless I'm going to be actually getting on a flight!!

If no one has a good idea as to whether or not my flight will be affected is it reasonable to assume if the inbound flight from Boston (arriving tomorrow morning sometime?) isn't cancelled, delayed or diverted then it's likely we'll get out on it?

Really appreciate any input. The lack of info from Aer Lingus (why do they take our mobile #'s and email contact details if they don't use them???) is killing me.

Regards,

Ben

Who the hell can say? This is a complex software/hardware system that has been negligently put in place by a team of morons. There are no quick fixes to problems of this nature.

.probe

Victor

Can we tone done the language slightly?

OTK

Between 15:30 and 17:00 there were no announcements from Ryanair to their passengers in area D. When they were eventually told that their flights were cancelled, Ryanair advised passengers to change their reservations for free on their website. Only problem was that their website gives an error message when anyone tries to change a booking from one of these cancelled flights.

Sponge Bob

Noel Dempsey is responsible for fixing all this so I am absolutely certain he is on top of it already and will make the correct long term decisions by 10pm tonight , 11pm latest.

Thanks to the sheer organisational genius of Noel this will never happen again .

swingking

I am flying in from Chicago tonight. Is it likely I'll be delayed

xia

Friends are on their way to Dublin from Frankfurt / Hahn i.e. Ryanair. Now they stay for the night in the nearby hotel and will get the flight to Kerry arriving at 11 a.m. and then by bus or rail (not decided yet) to Dublin arriving around 6 p.m. (instead of 11 p.m. tonight). Anyway, at least the will arrive at some stage.

Ryanair took no charge for the change of flights and advised them to keep all bills and said they will get reimbursed. We will see if it really works like that but so far it sounds not too bad.

Victor

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Noel Dempsey is responsible for fixing all this so I am absolutely certain he is on top of it already and will make the correct long term decisions by 10pm tonight , 11pm latest. Thanks to the sheer organisational genius of Noel this will never happen again .

He will then change his mind on Friday....

.... Saturday and Sunday.

patneve

hello am arriving in Dublin at 12 tomorrow, what are the risks of a delayed flight?

Victor

It will be completely dependent on what they can do overnight.

Check with your airlines and keep an eye on www.dub.aero and the departure list at your airport of origin.

http://www.dublinairport.com/flight-information/live-arrivals.asp shows that all of todays flights are due to arrive by about 1am. There are a lot of flights scheduled to arrive between 1100-1200, so if problems continue, expect delays.

irishatco

To anyone wondering will they be delayed in the coming days, the answer is most probably yes. Flow restrictions will remain in place, to what extent I'm not sure right now.

Sponge Bob

I am waiting for Noel to tell us what he has decided, I believe he just entered the Dáil to tell his spellbound nation what his decisive actions will be .

Noels Speech To The Nation is scheduled for 10pm and as Noel is also Aer Lingus's largest shareholder he has been fully briefed on all the plans .

You may watch Noel live below on the real time feed.

http://live.heanet.ie/oireachtas/dail_broadband.asx

markf909

Was this ground radar that failed or the whole fancy new software system that is less then 4 years old?

Red Alert

Wonder did the 'windows update' thing pop up at the wrong time? Yet another catastrophic failure on the part of Irish aviation. Someone would be losing their job in another country.

Chris_533976

I know someone now whos trapped up in Belfast - flight was supposed to land in Dublin. So they'll bring her to Dublin at a stupid hour of the morning with no way for her to get back to Galway on the bus she was going to catch.

All because Dublin airport is useless.

Sponge Bob

Its not a Dublin Airport system that failed Chris, its an IAA system located in or near Dublin Airport .

kowloon

I have a flight this morning in a couple of hours. I'm off to sign a contract and turning around and coming right back. If the flights are delayed too much I'll miss the flight home. Balls :mad:.

Stimpyone

probe wrote: »

A number of points arise:

1) Backup isn’t backup unless it is 100% backup in terms of capacity. A bank would not run an ATM system without a backup system that was capable of handling the same demand as the main system. A bank with 500 million bank accounts will use a test system with 500 million bank accounts to test new software before putting it online. A cheapo test system that has just 250 million accounts loaded on it won’t do.

2) An airline would not run a reservation system without a backup that could deliver the same transaction processing capacity in an emergency, (aside from Ryanair!).

3) ATC is a far more serious business than airline reservations or cash withdrawals at ATMs for safety and infrastructural reliability reasons.
One has to ask oneself the question what has changed in the Thales system at Dublin Airport since last year. Has the software been “updated”, and if so why can’t the older version which seemed to work in 2007 be used? Have any elements of the hardware been modified?

Any complex software/hardware system should be capable of restoring the system to a proven, customer accepted, “day one” working system, at short notice.

This is nothing short of gross incompetence by IAA/DAA/Thales and anyone else involved. Has Thales advised IAA that the system in place is in any way inadequate to provide continuity of service? Where can one find the tender/specification document for this system?

As someone said earlier, heads should roll.

.probe

Well put Probe, its generally the point I was trying to make but you did it far more eloquently

thomasj

Appears to be a bit of conflicting information:

RTE News: http://http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0710/air.html

Further delays over Dublin Airport radar fault
Thursday, 10 July 2008 09:57

Thousands of passengers travelling through Dublin Airport are again delayed following the collapse of the radar system yesterday.

The Irish Aviation Authority has said a fault in the system's hardware had been identified.

There are long queues at check-in desks this morning, and the Dublin Airport Authority says the airport is now operating at 100% capacity.
The authority and airlines are advising passengers to check in as normal, but they say there could be delays later today.

Redirected flights will have to arrive back to Dublin to recommence their normal services.

Passengers stranded in Britain, Europe and other locations will have to return to Dublin and their flights will add additional pressure to today's normal airport traffic.


On RTÉ Radio's Morning Ireland, Ryanair's Michael O'Leary accused the IAA of being 'not fit for purpose' and he predicted that the system will collapse again later this morning.

However, Pat Ryan of the IAA defended the decision to partially shut down the system, saying that passenger safety was paramount.

Yesterday's disruption happened when the IAA's radar system failed. As many as 20,000 passengers' flights were affected by the problems.

Both Ryanair and Aer Lingus cancelled flights, while others were redirected to Belfast, Shannon, and Cork with passengers being bussed back to Dublin from those airports.

But IAA Statement as at 9.30am this morning (10/07/08)

http://http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=96&a=525

Statement from Irish Aviation Authority at 09:30

---

The Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) wishes to apologise to our customers and the travelling public for the continuing disruption arising from technical difficulties with its radar system at Dublin Airport.

In the interest of safety, air traffic control at Dublin Airport has restricted its operations. We are confident that we have identified the cause of the problem, the system has been stabilised and is now operating at 70% capacity . The system suppliers, Thales ATM, are currently conducting a full testing and analysis process, following which we will move safely towards full operating capacity.

Regardless of commercial pressures, the safety of aircraft, passengers and crews is of paramount importance to the Irish Aviation Authority. Any increase in capacity will only be made following complete assurance from the IAA's engineers and our equipment supplier Thales that such an increase is safe.

Intending passengers should contact their airline for updated flight information.

The Irish Aviation Authority will provide an update on the matter when further information is available.

ENDS

10 July 2008

Slunk

I have to get a ryanair flight from Dublin - Stansted at 08.10 in the morning for a connecting flight at 13.15. What are the chances ye reckon??

KC61

Slunk wrote: »

I have to get a ryanair flight from Dublin - Stansted at 08.10 in the morning for a connecting flight at 13.15. What are the chances ye reckon??

Things are not as bad today as yesterday, but you should have enough time in that schedule.

Tarabuses

Slunk wrote: »

I have to get a ryanair flight from Dublin - Stansted at 08.10 in the morning for a connecting flight at 13.15. What are the chances ye reckon??

The earlier the flight the less chance of delay. Your flight will be arriving in from Stanstead (due 0745) so hopefully there will be no serios problems.

okgirl

Hi there,
Just wondering if anyone has an update on the situation in Dublin airport today. We are flying Ryanair at 6pm tommorrow to germany. Are there still filghts being cancelled. I doin't mind a delay but need to get a message to our key holder in Germany. Any update would be great.

Thanks