Am I going to get fired? Unfairly?

Nody

Illegal Alien wrote: »

(Do they think my doctor, or any doctor out there, is so morally and ethically corrupt that they would constantly lie for the benefit of €50 a pop?)

I can mention multiple once that do it.

If they're willing to do this, should I be willing to come into work if I'm unwell?

Because your illness is not one of the most sacrilegious states in working law? *hint hint*

Oddly enough, choosing to take 6 months pay without being there is the celebrated one, being unfortunate and unfit for work is met with comtempt.

Because one is adding to the country and state and the other is a detrimental to the country and state.

Dudess

Honey-ec wrote: »

It's physically impossible to contract tonsillitis (bacterial) from someone who has the 'flu (viral).

Not to mention that if someone genuinely had the flu, they wouldn't be able to drag themselves out of bed to go into work in the first place, regardless of how much of a martyr they were.

Yep. When people at work/college/wherever whinge that they've the 'flu, they haven't. They might be feeling miserable with a bad cold, but the 'flu they have not. Christ, I'll never forget the last time I had the 'flu - it took every ounce of strength I had to go to the toilet...

AARRRGH

There are two doctors on my street who will give doctors certs for anything. One of my friends uses one of these doctors to "prove" his fake sickies are real and feel vindicated in work.

Doctors are trained to support ill people. They don't give a **** about your job. They have no problem writing a letter saying you are sick or need time off or whatever.

Anyway, whatever you may think yourself, the world of employment does not support people who come in late and take loads of sickies, so you are fighting a losing battle.

If you want to be taken seriously in your workplace, you need to start taking your work seriously.

Illegal Alien

Nody wrote: »

I can mention multiple once that do it.

Because your illness is not one of the most sacrilegious states in working law? *hint hint*

Because one is adding to the country and state and the other is a detrimental to the country and state.

Well, what do you suggest we do with people who are ill and unfit for work? Let's not forget, I'm not taking months on end here and I'm not claiming false benefits or defrauding anybody, I am genuinley ill and unfit for work, so should people with disabilities be frowned upon? I mean your attitude is border line Fascist. Should I be sent to the chamber?

dublindude wrote:

There are two doctors on my street who will give doctors certs for anything. One of my friends uses one of these doctors to "prove" his fake sickies are real and feel vindicated in work.

Doctors are trained to support ill people. They don't give a **** about your job. They have no problem writing a letter saying you are sick or need time off or whatever.

Anyway, whatever you may think yourself, the world of employment does not support people who come in late and take loads of sickies, so you are fighting a losing battle.

If you want to be taken seriously in your workplace, you need to start taking your work seriously.

Again, I'm surprised by the attitude. You may know some dodgy doctors, but I can assure you my doctor is not dodgy in the slightest and like most, has ethics and standards. He's not some GP who thinks he can hand out notes in the privacy of his office that no one will ever know about, he's a hospital based specialist. Also, the "company doctor" is contracted to the company to investigate sickness from work to determine if it is genuine or not. I doubt they thought I was just such a nice guy they would jepridise their probable lucrative contract of inspections and medicals, not least their reputation and lie for me, but they just carried out their job as normal and found me ill.

You see you both remind me of my boss at work, what is so difficult to understand or accept here? I just hope you or any of your relatives don't get struck down by an illness that they have to then feel guilty about and have to prove to someone like you.

nesf

Illegal Alien wrote: »

Well, what do you suggest we do with people who are ill and unfit for work?

For those who cannot work at all, there's disability payments from the State. It isn't going to an opulent lifestyle but it's a lifeline for those truly in need.

The point is that this is two sided. An employer can't be expected to automatically give a job to someone who cannot turn up to work everyday, even when the reasons are genuine. Depending on the job, this will either be a serious problem or not. Some employers won't mind, some employers will but the bottom line is that in the private sector you are not owed a job by anyone.

If you have a medical disability, there are employers out there who will employ you and facilitate your need for absences to some extent. The thing is, you need to be upfront about it from the start and not mislead your employer into thinking that you are fully healthy which you are not.

Illegal Alien wrote: »

You see you both remind me of my boss at work, what is so difficult to understand or accept here? I just hope you or any of your relatives don't get struck down by an illness that they have to then feel guilty about and have to prove to someone like you.

Right, I have bipolar and have suffered with it since childhood so I would like to think that I have an idea or two about these kinds of issues. Those of us with long term illnesses aren't owed anything and we still have to bloody well carry our weight in the workplace. You cannot just expect people to bend over backwards because you have a sick cert if your illness is preventing you from doing your job and it isn't going away. There is a level of absence that is "reasonable" and most employers are fairly understanding about health issues but private companies do have a right to employ people fit for the job and if someone can't do their job that company should be able to lay them off. We have a social safety net for people who can't work because of illness, we all pay taxes so it is there just in case we get unlucky and get struck down by an illness.

If your illness isn't permanent, is likely to improve or is something that you can come to some arrangement with the company to work around (taking weekend shifts or extra hours on other days to balance out the days you miss or whatever), then you should sit down with them and work it out but you can't expect the world to give you a break every time because it's a genuine illness, you have to work with people on these issues, not just present a sick cert with no explanation or plan to rectify matters.

Nody

Illegal Alien wrote: »

Well, what do you suggest we do with people who are ill and unfit for work? Let's not forget, I'm not taking months on end here and I'm not claiming false benefits or defrauding anybody, I am genuinley ill and unfit for work, so should people with disabilities be frowned upon? I mean your attitude is border line Fascist. Should I be sent to the chamber?

Aaah, now it came up, the Fascist line, not surprised you pulled it as you've been towing the line of "woe me" since your first post and the fascist line is usually pulled eventually. You see the difference between you and most others here is that you feel that you are entitled to pull sickies and everyone else should accommodate you and the fact they don't is unfair. That is also where you go wrong, being sick is NOT an entitlement, if you can't work in your current job due to sickness then you need to find a job where you can work around it. Having a job in the private sector is not enshrined in the working law.

Also, the "company doctor" is contracted to the company to investigate sickness from work to determine if it is genuine or not. I doubt they thought I was just such a nice guy they would jepridise their probable lucrative contract of inspections and medicals, not least their reputation and lie for me, but they just carried out their job as normal and found me ill.

Once again sorry to spoil your dreams but "company doctors" always err on the side of caution from experience. The reason is they don't want to risk a lawsuit in court if they said someone was healthy to work and then gets hurt. It would have to be pretty blatant for them to over rule another doctor's opinion.

You see you both remind me of my boss at work, what is so difficult to understand or accept here? I just hope you or any of your relatives don't get struck down by an illness that they have to then feel guilty about and have to prove to someone like you.

No, the difference is we see someone who's been chronically late for over two years and who's not suitable to do the job due to sickness, in short someone who should not have the position in question. You on the other hand think everyone else should work around you, and your sickness to accommodate you instead of the other way around where you should accommodate your team and company. As for relatives being struck down by illness, does dying in cancer count?

January

Also, I know the maternity leave shot was a cheap one, but I am / was slightly bitter and do feel it's justified to an extent. Does somebody really give a sh*t about the company if their willing to fu*k off once every couple of years for 6 months on full pay to have some kids? If they're willing to do this, should I be willing to come into work if I'm unwell?

Full pay, are you kidding me????

The weekly rate of Maternity Benefit is calculated by dividing a woman's gross income in the relevant tax year by the number of weeks they actually worked in that year.

The rate of Maternity Benefit is 80% of this amount, subject to a minimum payment of €221.80 and a maximum payment of €280.00 per week. These rates are effective from 31st December 2007.

www.welfare.ie

We have to work for our maternity benefit unfortunatly. If we do not build up the relevant tax credits then we do not get paid. It's not as easy as spitting out a kid every couple of years, going home to watch daytime television and sleeping all the time. Women actually have to look after the child that they give birth to.

I think you should look up what women are entitled to while they are on maternity leave, I bet it's a pittance compared to what you're being paid. €220 euro a week is a very measly wage and you think thats fully paid????

the_syco

Dudess wrote: »

Yep. When people at work/college/wherever whinge that they've the 'flu, they haven't.

Funny story: came to work, as I had the flu (vomiting bug), but it wasn't "that bad" after a few days, so I went to work. In the coming days, several more people caught it.

The moral of the story: they'll believe you're sick when you come in to spread the plague flu.

4Xcut

AARRRGH wrote: »

There are two doctors on my street who will give doctors certs for anything. One of my friends uses one of these doctors to "prove" his fake sickies are real and feel vindicated in work.

Doctors are trained to support ill people. They don't give a **** about your job. They have no problem writing a letter saying you are sick or need time off or whatever.

Anyway, whatever you may think yourself, the world of employment does not support people who come in late and take loads of sickies, so you are fighting a losing battle.

If you want to be taken seriously in your workplace, you need to start taking your work seriously.

Not just this, but it is also risky for a doctor to say that someone is not sick. If someone claims to feel very unwell and a doctor can't find anything specifically wrong with them, they can't state that the person is lying. They can only say that they can't find anything wrong with them from the tests they have run.

Can you imaging the back-lash if a doctor said someone was fit for work and they got worse? It protects doctos as well as being handy for employees(some genuine, some lazy).

PurpleBerry

I went to the doctors one Wednesday when I was sick. He asked me if I'd like him to sign me off for the rest off the week. I declined. I went back to work the next day.

MagicMarker

Neesa wrote: »

I went to the doctors one Wednesday when I was sick. He asked me if I'd like him to sign me off for the rest off the week. I declined. I went back to work the next day.

Good for you, you have a conscience, well done.

I think some people are giving the OP a hard time here...

Guys, no one here knows what this illness consists of, however we do know that the companies own feckin doctor confirmed that it is a legitimate reason for him taking the time off work.

So really, what are you all arguing about ffs?

The only issue i see here is the lateness, and constantly being late is taking the piss.

AARRRGH

Well even if someone is genuinely sick, the employer is still within his rights to get rid of the person. The OP may not be happy about that, but that's the way it goes. Feeling sorry for himself won't change that.

He needs to figure out another solution to his problem. Posting on boards or whinging won't make it go away.

MagicMarker

AARRRGH wrote: »

Well even if someone is genuinely sick, the employer is still within his rights to get rid of the person. The OP may not be happy about that, but that's the way it goes. Feeling sorry for himself won't change that.

He needs to figure out another solution to his problem. Posting on boards or whinging won't make it go away.

So if i get cancer, and need time off work, it's ok for the employer to fire me because i'm missing too many days?

leeroybrown

MagicMarker wrote: »

So if i get cancer, and need time off work, it's ok for the employer to fire me because i'm missing too many days?

Yes. If you're out on a long term basis then your employer can fairly dismiss you if a medical report shows that you're not likely to return to work in the near future. If you're taking a lot of short term absences then they can fairly dismiss you if they can show a pattern of absence, warn you and show that there is no sign of improvement. There are no strict rules so each case is treated on it's own merits.

Quite a few larger companies have generous contractually defined illness benefits that provide for the above situations.

EDIT: A more detailed explanation: Fair grounds for dismissal (Citizens Information).

nesf

MagicMarker wrote: »

So if i get cancer, and need time off work, it's ok for the employer to fire me because i'm missing too many days?

Yes. Simply, your having a job is dependent on you being able to do that job, if illness is preventing you from being able to do it then an employer does have a right to fire you (with all the usual caveats of reasonableness etc attached). It's not nice for the sick person, and might be the absolute last thing that they need to happen since they're already going to be pretty down about being so sick but the world isn't always fair.

Many employers are very generous to someone with cancer or a similar serious condition when it's possible but there's no legal requirement for them to do so.

MagicMarker

If the cancer was terminal then of course things are a little different and the patient would more than likely resign.

But if taking a couple of months off for treatment is needed then there is no chance any employer would fire them, simply because they would not have a legal leg to stand on. Regardless of any 'fair grounds for dismissal' guidelines present.

AARRRGH

MagicMarker wrote: »

If the cancer was terminal then of course things are a little different and the patient would more than likely resign.

But if taking a couple of months off for treatment is needed then there is no chance any employer would fire them, simply because they would not have a legal leg to stand on. Regardless of any 'fair grounds for dismissal' guidelines present.

I think it's extremely unlikely an employer would fire someone because they had cancer and couldn't come into work, but I do think the law is on the employers side, i.e. the person can no longer do the job they were employed to do.

Hopefully none of us ever have to worry about something like that!

MagicMarker

Yeah i see what you mean, but even regardless of circumstances, an employer can't just fire someone because they've been sick for too long. Yes, they are within there rights to do so, but that doesn't mean there won't be reprecussions to be had. Irrespective of whethers it's cancer, a broken leg or the flu.

The OP has two doctors backing him up on this, no one here knows his circumstances. I think if it turned out he did have cancer (hypothetically) then the replies in this thread would have been very different.

AARRRGH

I dunno, this page, and in particular the quote below makes me think the employer is within his rights to fire the sick employee:

Your employer could give one or more of the following reasons for your dismissal:

absenteeism and persistent absence through illness or injury, either short-term or long-term

If illness or injury is at issue, it is often assumed that you cannot be dismissed fairly while on certified sick leave from your work. However, this is not true.

Dismissal related to short-term illness generally occurs where you have a medical problem that results in frequent absences for short periods from the workplace. Assuming that the genuine nature of your problem was not in question, your employer will have to show that a pattern of absence exists, that it is causing problems, that the problem is unlikely to get better and that you have been warned that dismissal is likely.

Obviously, the longer the absence, the easier it is for your employer to show that it is causing genuine difficulty in terms of the organisation of the workplace.

A motivated employer could prove the absenteeism is causing substantial problems...

nesf

MagicMarker wrote: »

Yeah i see what you mean, but even regardless of circumstances, an employer can't just fire someone because they've been sick for too long. Yes, they are within there rights to do so, but that doesn't mean there won't be reprecussions to be had. Irrespective of whethers it's cancer, a broken leg or the flu.

The thing is that this is really down to a case by case basis. Employers won't just automatically fire people who are going to have to be off work for a few months after a serious accident, it's going to come down to whether it's worth it for the employer to fire them and replace them or whether getting a temporary person to cover their leave is a better option within the context of the particular company and the individual involved.

A valuable employee who would be hard to replace, be it down to skills or knowledge gained from years in the industry or whatever is a very different case to someone who would be very easy to replace. It just mightn't be worth the hassle of getting in temp staff or putting up with regular absences when they could easily replace the person with someone who'll be able to work regularly. It could easily come down to whether or not the rest of the employees would be happy to accept the person getting replaced. A very popular or well respected person being replaced might generate a fair amount of ill will for instance but equally a job exists because work needs to get done and at the end of the day and an employer shouldn't automatically be forced to make sacrifices because someone is ill and can't do their job.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I dunno, this page, and in particular the quote below makes me think the employer is within his rights to fire the sick employee:

Legally the employer can under certain conditions. There's no ambiguity about it to be honest, people just don't like the idea of it happening. The law shouldn't be read as the employer should fire employees who are sick but as employers have the option of doing so. It's not lose-lose for an employer to cover for someone who is out for a month or two because of some accident or illness, if an employer does cover for them and there's a job waiting for that person when they get better then that employee is likely to be more loyal to their employer and the rest of the employees might feel more comfortable and more willing to stay because the employer looks after people in this way. The thing is not all employees are equal, no matter what unions would like you to think, and some employees are just not worth covering for. An employee who is good at their job and someone the employer wants to keep on is certainly worth covering for, an employee who isn't good at their job, who is lazy, regularly late or prone to time wasting and dragging their heels over tasks on the other hand isn't someone who has necessarily earned that loyalty from their employer. As with many things in life you reap what you sow in this I think and karma can be a bitch.

Moonbeam

Illegal Alien wrote: »

.

Also, I know the maternity leave shot was a cheap one, but I am / was slightly bitter and do feel it's justified to an extent. Does somebody really give a sh*t about the company if their willing to fu*k off once every couple of years for 6 months on full pay to have some kids? If they're willing to do this, should I be willing to come into work if I'm unwell?

How I lolled.

http://welfare.ie/publications/sw11.html

Employees

We work out your weekly rate of Maternity Benefit by dividing your gross income in the relevant tax year by the number of weeks you actually worked in that year.

You may get 80% of this amount, subject to a minimum payment of €221.80 and a maximum payment of €280.00 a week. These rates are from 31st December 2007.

The state also pays illness benefit for those who qualify -

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/disability-and-illness/disability_benefit


Now,some companies do pay you your full wage while on maternity leave and others do while on sick leave but this is their choice.

kheldara

This thread really resonated with me - I recently quit my highly-stressful office job after many, many different illnesses over the past few years ending with a minor nervous breakdown.

Since leaving, I have never felt healthier and have had no sick episodes at all - OP, I think you should look at your enjoyment of your work, as in my opinion it is highly possible that it is in fact your work that is making you sick in the first place.

Are you working in an area that you are interested and engaged in? Do you feel happy leaving the house in the morning? Did you used to get sick so much before this job?

Life is too short to spend your time slaving away for a faceless company that will have no problems letting you go at the first sign of weakness on your part - consider this trait of the company to be their weakness and feel justified in leaving them if they are not making your 40+ hours a week worthwhile to you! Many posters in this thread fit with what my a few of my old colleagues were like - a little unsympathetic and more interested in the company's "feelings" than in human feelings. Don't worry about them and their judgements! They may realise in later life that office life is not the be-all and end-all of existence.

Good luck :-)

Supercell

The thing is , some people take sick days for a sniffle or a head cold and its not that hard to get a doc cert for it .
Others only do so because they are dying of the flu or something that really only happens once every year if even. Couple multiple absenses in a six month period with a history of habitual lateness and I fear you are on shaky ground.
I think its time to start over somewhere new before youre pushed out tbh.

Musha

Sound like the OP is already sick of the job and not motivated enough to get out of bed and go to work.

Firstly we all find it hard to rise from the scratcher every morning to go to work but 99% of us do.
The combination of lates and sickness oviously show a pattern on the OPs work calendar, i.e Monday Mornings, Fridays of Bank Holiday weekends etc
An the employer is just highlighting the fact that they have become aware of this pattern. OP also mentioned that since the first "talk" with employer that they have taken more sick days.
In business the most valuable asset is the employee, If I rota an emloyee on to do a job I an placing my trust and the standing of my company in that employees hands if they don't turn up because of a "Flu" but are back to work the next day, it pushes my timetable out and causes lost revenue.
So what may be a Duvet Day for one could have long term affects on their and their collegues job security.

LegacyUser

i AM NOT SURE THAT This is the right place to post this - but I have a question and was directed to this site - I have a L4-5 disc tear - been out of work for 3 months - i git called into the job today by the boss- and was told basically that Human Resources said that I abandoned my my - and didnt keep them informed as to what was happening - I get treated at the same place that I work and they know exactly whats going on -- also - they did an nternet search of me and printed out all of my blogs and produced this at the meeting - stating that if I am injured how can I do cardio - my "cardio" consists of walking - not even n a treadmill- just around the house or at the store or around the block - and they are using this against me

what should i do confused