Civil Service Pay Freeze

dublad23

Anyone know if this means we won't get any pay increase until 2010? Can they do this? Surely all civil servants will strike.



Finance Minister Brian Lenihan has outlined a package of measures aimed at saving €440m in public spending this year.

Mr Lenihan said all Government departments other than Health and Education will be required to reduce their payroll bill by 3% by the end of 2009.

The Minister has also put on hold any more acquisition of property for the decentralisation programme. Pay increases due to Ministers, senior judges and civil servants will not go ahead, but this will be reviewed in September 2010.

AdvertisementThe costs of tribunals will be reviewed so that expenditure is minimised. Minister Lenihan says the Government is hoping to save €440m in 2008 and €1bn in 2009.

He also said spending on consultancy, advertising and public relations would be cut by at least 50% in 2009, and significantly curtailed for the rest of this year.

State agencies will be reviewed to see if they can share services or amalgamate or be abolished, Mr Lenihan said. The review's outcome is to be considered in the autumn.

He also announced savings of €45m in Overseas Development Aid in 2008. The Departments of Finance and Health and Children are to draw up a scheme to reduce surplus staff in the HSE as soon as possible.

(Read Minister Lenihan's full speech here.)

All Depts have also been told stay within annual budget. Mr Lenihan said the cuts were aimed at protecting the vulnerable and were the minimum required.

The Cabinet met earlier today to agree the measures. On his way into the meeting, Mr Lenihan said that he had very constructive talks to agree the cost-cutting measures. More savings are expected in December's Budget.

Govt mismanagement to blame, says Kenny

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has said he welcomes some of the measures announced by the Finance Minister.

Mr Kenny told the Dáil he particularly welcomed the cuts on advertising and consultants as well as the pausing of the ministerial pay increase.

However he said the document appears to be cobbled together in an ill thought out fashion. He says it was the consequence of mismanagement, and said the present administration was the worst government of the last 50 years.

Labour Leader Eamon Gilmore said the measures equate to 'back of the envelope book keeping'. He said the plan was full of headline-grabbing measures designed to restore confidence in the Government rather than in the economy.

He says there is nothing in the plan for the 54,000 people who have lost their jobs in the last year. Deputy Gilmore also said that there are some prudent measures included and pointed to the pause in the ministerial pay awards.


The Opposition is beginning its counter-attack in the Dáil today ahead of a debate on the economy tomorrow and Thursday.

jd83

That what is sounds like, does that also mean recruitment freeze or have they still not announced that yet?

Kimbot

It looks like they will find a way to do it. Remember they are the guys that pay their wages at the end of the day.

Unions are pretty much screwed because part of the 2016 deal was they couldn't stike wasn't it??

egan007

Hopefully it means the tax apyer will stop pouring money into slackers pockets

Hellm0

Great, so long as these cuts are made to the right sectors and do not affect essential public services.

That said I see this as A) A publicity stunt and A move towards privatisation of the national heathcare service and anything else these greedy bastards are willing to auction off in order to secure their corporate golden parachute once they retire.

Yes Ireland has rough time's ahead of it but lets not turn this into another of the self hating, rampantly corrupt and cronism riddled government OTHER countries have.

God help us if the IMF steps in. Re-structuring packages, inflation and breadlines for all!

spadder

dublad23 wrote: »

Anyone know if this means we won't get any pay increase until 2010? Can they do this? Surely all civil servants will strike.

Apart from the emergency services, would anyone notice a civil servants strike?

You have a job for life, great benefits and great pensions. get over it.

yabadabado

spadder wrote: »

Apart from the emergency services, would anyone notice a civil servants strike?

not that it will happen but if civil servants went on strike it would have a huge impact especially in social welfare where people have to sign on/apply for payments weekly

445279.ie

egan007 wrote: »

Hopefully it means the tax apyer will stop pouring money into slackers pockets

Get over yourself. Stop tarring everyone with the same brush :mad::mad:

spadder

DCC160 wrote: »

Get over yourself. Stop tarring everyone with the same brush :mad::mad:

Sorry DCC, but I will bet most of the pirvate sector will see the civil service as giant waste of money, full of dossers.

I know civil servants who will admit to being wasters.

Kimbot

spadder wrote: »

Apart from the emergency services, would anyone notice a civil servants strike?

Yeah without a court service/prison service you would have chaos on the streets, the gardai can't be bothered doing anything because with no courts/prisons staff there is no place to put criminals.

Social Welfare: People won't get payments etc and will started getting angry which could cause a bit more hassle.

They are just some that would be noticed.

Kimbot

spadder wrote: »

Sorry DCC, but I will bet most of the pirvate sector will see the civil service as giant waste of money, full of dossers.

And what there are no Dossers in the private sector???

When I worked in the private sector I saw more slackers than I have in the public service. There are some slackers but they are the minority in the public service in this day and age.

chris85

jonny24ie wrote: »

Yeah without a court service/prison service you would have chaos on the streets, the gardai can't be bothered doing anything because with no courts/prisons staff there is no place to put criminals.

Social Welfare: People won't get payments etc and will started getting angry which could cause a bit more hassle.

They are just some that would be noticed.

The problem seems to be overstaffing from what ive heard from friends in the civil service. Too many people so less for each to do.

spadder

jonny24ie wrote: »

And what there are no Dossers in the private sector?

No. they get fired.

yabadabado

i think one of the biggest problems in the civil service is the old/outdated systems in place in some departments .if these were sorted out maybe it would free up staff

445279.ie

spadder wrote: »

I know civil servants who will admit to being wasters.

Fair enough, but please don't generalise. Not all are wasters!!

stepbar

There's certain parts of the civil service bloated from the amount of useless feckers doing useless jobs. And there's other parts that could certainly up the scope of work they do.

The slackers in the private sector usually get found out and in large are not protected by the unions.

Kimbot

spadder wrote: »

No. they get fired.

I've seen plenty that lasted a lot longer than civil servants with the same attitude have.

Hellm0

stepbar wrote: »

There's certain parts of the civil service bloated from the amount of useless feckers doing useless jobs. And there's other parts that could certainly up the scope of work they do.

The slackers in the private sector usually get found out and in large are not protected by the unions.

The whole point of the private sector is to slack off, to get as much money as possible for the least amount of effort. Are you suggesting privatisation of governmental bodies is a good thing?

stepbar

yabadabado wrote: »

i think one of the biggest problems in the civil service is the old/outdated systems in place in some departments .if these were sorted out maybe it would free up staff

+1. I experienced it first hand one summer. I calculated that in one dole office it took 3 days for an application to be put into payment when the amount of work involved amounted to less than an hour. That's only one office. Can you imagine what it was like countrywide?

Nolanger

It'll take a lot longer than 3 days now with everyone signing on.

Hellm0

stepbar wrote: »

+1. I experienced it first hand one summer. I calculated that in one dole office it took 3 days for an application to be put into payment when the amount of work involved amounted to less than an hour. That's only one office. Can you imagine what it was like countrywide?

You experianced this first hand? I take it then you were brought in as a consultant to this dole office? Or did you work there? Or are you talking about the kind of first hand experiance you get from sitting at home and thinking about the subject?

You calculated this? How? Where did you get this one hour number from? Did you fill in the form yourself and time it? Did you factor in variables such as work load, lunch breaks etc?

I'm not saying there are no in-efficiencies in the government but I question your claims and I have yet to see you propose a solution.

spadder

These great civil servents will lead us out of recession....

http://www.martincullen.ie/

http://www.noeldempsey.ie/

between them, look at how they reformed e-voting.

445279.ie

There's a differnece between elected officials and civil servants who work 9-5 in departments everyday.

spadder

yes, but it's idiots like this who run the departments.
It's typical of the waste and apathyin the service from the top all the way down.

stepbar

Hellm0 wrote: »

You experianced this first hand? I take it then you were brought in as a consultant to this dole office? Or did you work there? Or are you talking about the kind of first hand experiance you get from sitting at home and thinking about the subject?

You calculated this? How? Where did you get this one hour number from? Did you fill in the form yourself and time it? Did you factor in variables such as work load, lunch breaks etc?

I'm not saying there are no in-efficiencies in the government but I question your claims and I have yet to see you propose a solution.

I worked in an dole office and did a masters thesis on the subject. OKAY?

I haven't seen your solution mate......

RoryW

and dont forget the public sector pensions.....

spadder

and the free parking in town...

Hellm0

stepbar wrote: »

I worked in an dole office and did a masters thesis on the subject. OKAY?

Fair enough, I'll take you at your word.

stepbar wrote: »

I haven't seen your solution mate......

I havnt proposed one. That could be because I have yet to make comments suggesting there is any specific problem which requires a specific solution.

sitstill

Does anyone know if the civil service pay freeze will apply to teachers too? If so, I hope the unions organise strikes. Why should we pay for the problems with the economy.

badlyparkedmerc

Does anyone know if the civil service pay freeze will apply to teachers too?

The announcement today concerned only senior civil servants (about 1000 I think), the ones earning well over 100k.

So right now it doesn't even apply to Civil Servants as a whole yet let alone people like teachers.

ixoy

spadder wrote: »

and the free parking in town...

And generously short working weeks, paid breaks, "bank time", great holidays and provisions such as term time

I've seen far more serious slacking in the public service than the private sector. There might not be more of it but what's there is stuff that I don't believe you could get away with in the private sector. For example, I see someone who comes in, puts his iPod on and reads the paper. Now either he's lazy and has a bad work attitude - in which case get rid of him - or there's no work for him to do in which case.. well you know.

I think one of the most frustrating things is how the civil service don't ever seem to acknowledge all these many benefits they have that are rarely in the private sector and instead harp on about (supposed) pay differences.

The_Conductor

RoryW wrote: »

and dont forget the public sector pensions.....

Public service pensions since 1995 are fully contributory- between the different schemes you are obliged to pay into they cover 15.5-16% of gross income.

Free parking- is of a temporary nature (i.e. if you have to go to hospital etc, its possible that they may agree to give you parking for the day- its not a permanent feature for 95% of civil servants). In some instances where there are sufficient spaces available, a lottery might be held for 3 months or 6 months of the year. The only people with permanent parking spaces are elected officials, and POs/ASGs/SGs and Ministers and their staff.

Generously short working weeks are 42.5 hours (including 1 hour a day for lunch and breaks- which is normally monitored by a clocking system). Flexitime is not universal- its a privilege depending entirely on the business needs of individual sections. 42.5 hours seems pretty normal to me- and I've worked for longer in the private sector than in the public sector?

Elected officials such as Noel Dempsey or Martin Cullen are not civil servants- if you don't like them, vote them out.

The number of civil servants in Ireland, contrary to public perceptions, is actually the lowest per head of population in the OECD. It was massively overstaffed, and indeed continues to be in some areas- but its just as likely that an area may be chronically understaffed, as overstaffed. This is particularly noticeable in the Summertime when some staff are eligible to apply for unpaid leave to care for children or elderly parents. In a lot of sections all holiday or leave requests between June and September are automatically refused. There are under 38,000 civil servants in total in Ireland (including Prison Officers- but excluding teachers, Gardai etc (the HSE is a seperate monster- with over 200,000 staff of its own)).

Great Holidays? Statutory minimum for over 85% of civil servants. COs (admin grade) and EOs (lowest management position- normally graduate recruitment these days) get 20 or 21 days- incremented by 1 day after 5 years of service and another day after 10 years.

Re: Paid breaks? Do you mean holidays? If you mean study leave- its far more generous in the private sector. If you are doing a degree/masters you get 1 day study leave per subject and the morning or afternoon of the exam itself off. Any additional leave is from your holidays, or is unpaid.

The biggest things yesterday's announcement means- with a 3% cut in the wage bill is:

1. No payrises irrespective of inflation running at 6% (i.e. 6% cut in real earnings)
2. No replacements for people who die/retire/transfer elsewhere
3. With annual salary increments (of about 3%) considered sacrosanct for the lower paid- the 3% cut actually becomes closer to 6%.
4. Total freeze on all training- irrespective of how necessary its considered.

Etc. etc.

Added into the mess are a few more comments on decentralisation- is it any wonder than no-one trusts politicians?

Tom Dunne

I find it very telling that in the first three posts in this thread, two of them mention strikes.

That says it all, really.

As I have said before, a percentage of civil servants could do with a large dose of reality.

spadder

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I find it very telling that in the first three posts in this thread, two of them mention strikes.

That says it all, really.

As I have said before, a percentage of civil servants could do with a large dose of reality.

I Agree with Tom, Civil servants don't realise how handy they have it. In this current climate alot of people would trade a higher salary for a stable cushy number.

The_Conductor

spadder wrote: »

I Agree with Tom, Civil servants don't realise how handy they have it. In this current climate alot of people would trade a higher salary for a stable cushy number.

To be quite honest its all swings and roundabouts. Two or three years ago a highly qualified civil servant with a PhD or Masters relevant to their work would have been derided (and in many cases still is) for accepting a poor paying job (relative to what they could potentially earn in the private sector). Now they are derided for having a cushy number- they can't really win. Graduate recruitment salaries are set at an artificially low level, and the wonderful holidays that people appear to think civil servants have are a total myth.

Many people who were on a higher salary did trade in their higher salary for the relative merits of the civil service- though even that is very unattractive these days with the pension reforms that have taken place in the past few years. Its far preferable to take a short contract in the financial sector or the IT sector than it is to accept a civil service post- but if you can afford the salary cut- go for it.

Re: strikes- with the exception of the CPSU grades (COs and SOs) who do appear to be a quite militant bunch- I don't think any other civil servants have gone on strike in almost 30 years.

Re: the HSE comment- they are not civil servants, and yes there are far too many admin grades there to the detriment of front line staff (particularly Registrars, SHOs, Interns- rather than nurses, though you'd be surprised by the hype from the nurses, we actually have the second highest number of nurses in the OECD- its actually the doctors, who are in short supply).

Kimbot

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I find it very telling that in the first three posts in this thread, two of them mention strikes.

That says it all, really.

As I have said before, a percentage of civil servants could do with a large dose of reality.

Tom in which areas of the service would you say people need a dose of reality??

The_Conductor

jonny24ie wrote: »

Tom in which areas of the service would you say people need a dose of reality??

HSE!!!!

Macha

I have to agree that there is so much messing going on in the civil service.

Examples: A friend worked in social services but left because she felt so guilty for not doing anything.

Another friend left private sector to work in public sector. After a few weeks she was taken aside by her boss & told to 'slow down' because her efficiency was making the others look bad.

Friend from uni did a summer job as office assistant in town. He was greeting the public & one day the boss caught him talking on his mobile. He was told in future to call the person back on the office phone so that it woud look like a work call. He didnt have anything to do & was only hired so that those higher up wouldn't realise that people going away on summer holidays didn't actually do anything & weren't missed.

Brother works in large IT consultancy firm in Dublin. At the mo he's working in a certain public dept in town. He made up a test customer account using the name Anne Frank. Cue 2 hours of discussions & complaints on the part of the civil service about the inappropriateness of the name. Also, he is working on their websites & decided to do a 3rd test to make the site compatible with Mozilla (takes an extra 30 seconds). Cue 1 hour of arguing with civil servant about the fact that they don't officially support Mozilla.

The private sector don't adhere to the employment laws - health and safety, breaks in contracts, lunches, working hours, pay, bonuses. Civil servants are guaranteed all this plus job security. I mean my mum gets a day off work to come to my graduation - and it doesn't come out of her holidays!!!!!! You guys really need to start appreciating the smooth ride you're on.

And as for the HSE!! Consultants are holding this country to ransom and nurses should be ashamed of themselves!

BC

The problem with the public sector (in my experience) is bad management. The wrong people are put in very senior positions and they don't make the necessary decisions. They tend to be very detached from whats happening on the ground. Plus, it is very difficult/near impossible to sack a public servant which often results in them being promoted to get them out of certain offices. Its madness. The red tape involved in doing anything is also madness.

In relation to some of the 'perks' listed, bank time doesn't exist in most public sector places any more, not sure what you mean by paid breaks, lunch is unpaid, annual leave is obviously paid. I've never heard of time off to attend a son/daughters graduation. In my place that would have to be annual leave.

Macha

BC wrote: »

In relation to some of the 'perks' listed, bank time doesn't exist in most public sector places any more, not sure what you mean by paid breaks, lunch is unpaid, annual leave is obviously paid. I've never heard of time off to attend a son/daughters graduation. In my place that would have to be annual leave.

Well, it goes on. My mum is proof. My point about breaks and lunch is that civil servants actually get them. In almost every job I've had, its been unspoken but expected for people to work through part of their lunch, have lunch at their desk, etc.

My mum works a 6 hour day and that's standard in her office...she's onto a good thing but at least has the decency to acknowledge it.

Kimbot

taconnol wrote: »

Well, it goes on. My mum is proof. My point about breaks and lunch is that civil servants actually get them. In almost every job I've had, its been unspoken but expected for people to work through part of their lunch, have lunch at their desk, etc.

My mum works a 6 hour day and that's standard in her office...she's onto a good thing but at least has the decency to acknowledge it.

I work while having my lunch everyday. I take max 30 minutes but I'm still working away at my desk for that time. Somedays I get breaks and others I don't!

6 hours a day?? What?? Are you telling me that she does an hour less than the rest of us per day and nothing is being done about it?

There are ways to manipulate the system to gain time off without taking annual leave but I assure you that because its your childs graduation you are not handed a free days leave for it!

See the above is what is wrong with the service... people working slacked hours and getting away with it, therefore management need to cop on and stop it.

parsi

I think we need to clarify what we are discussing:

Public Sector - civil servants, public servants and semi-states.

Private - Sector - this is a broad Church !

+Banks are as union-bound as the Public Service is assumed to be and the errors of their ways are showing up now. Ever see a bank opening before 10:00 ?
+ customer service from large monopoly type orgs is rubbish (eircom, NTL, BT),
+ the UK multiples eg PC World, Dixons etc seem to be permanently staffed by incompetents,
+ Many small local providers are providing honest and reliable service and did so even during the boom when most folk just wanted your money.
+ some private employers treat their staff like rubbish and yet many more ensure that their staff are treated well and often provide over the odds. If you're being treated like rubbish it's natural to be unmotivated and to look with envy on jobs where the employee gets their rights be it MS, Google, the Banks or the Public Sector.

WindSock

Good. Far to much of my taxes goes into paying wasters wages as it is. Not to say all civil servans are wasters, but alot I have come across are. And they know it.

BC

taconnol wrote: »

Well, it goes on. My mum is proof.

It goes back to my point about bad management. If its in your mums contract that she can take graduation days, I would be very surprised. I'd guess its just some manager telling staff to take it.

taconnol wrote: »

My point about breaks and lunch is that civil servants actually get them. In almost every job I've had, its been unspoken but expected for people to work through part of their lunch, have lunch at their desk, etc.

The issue with taking lunch breaks happens in the public sector too. I can't remember the last time i took a full lunch break. Most days I have a sandwich at my desk while i'm working. Thats my fault as much as my bosses fault. In my experience not taking lunch breaks results in people being less productive anyway and its the employers (public & private) responsibility to ensure that staff take adequate breaks. Skipping lunch does not make you more productive or a 'better' employee, quite the opposite.

taconnol wrote: »

My mum works a 6 hour day and that's standard in her office...she's onto a good thing but at least has the decency to acknowledge it.

Well thats not standard accross the public sector (obviously i can only comment on my own experience). My official working day is 6 and a half hours (not including lunch). In reality almost no one in my department does that, most people do a standard 8 hour day. I know i'm onto a good thing in some respects (e.g pension) but don't tar all public sector workers with the same brush. And again, where employees aren't pulling their weight the responsibility should lie with their manager.

Jet Black

No ones going to win this arguement. There are doers everywhere public and private.
I work in the private sector and I was hit with a pay freeze for the next 3 years. It was either accept this or loose my job. Guess which one I picked?

Quick Soultion.

If your in the private sector move to the public sector.
If your in the public sector move to the private sector.

AARRRGH

spadder wrote: »

Sorry DCC, but I will bet most of the pirvate sector will see the civil service as giant waste of money, full of dossers.

I know civil servants who will admit to being wasters.

I worked with a grup of civil servants for 6 months. They did nothing all day.

What bothered me the most was that they were allowed and they expected to get away with it.

They should computerise and privatise as many of the departments as possible...

run_Forrest_run

sitstill wrote: »

Does anyone know if the civil service pay freeze will apply to teachers too? If so, I hope the unions organise strikes. Why should we pay for the problems with the economy.

what an utter stupid comment! Try telling that to the many employees who lost their jobs because of the downturn in the economy and to those who's jobs have been lost to workers in India etc.

We are all responsible for our economy but how could we expect those in jobs for life to even think anything different..ye see yourselves as sheltered from the storms of the economic climate...great, I hope you don't carry your "anyone but me" attitude into the classroom.

AARRRGH

Yep, it seems the civil service attracts a lot of desperately selfish people with tunnel vision.

That me me me attitude is ****ing disgusting.

Kimbot

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

what an utter stupid comment! Try telling that to the many employees who lost their jobs because of the downturn in the economy and to those who's jobs have been lost to workers in India etc.

We are all responsible for our economy but how could we expect those in jobs for life to even think anything different..ye see yourselves as sheltered from the storms of the economic climate...great, I hope you don't carry your "anyone but me" attitude into the classroom.

Plus the fact that teachers get paid mad sums of money to work for less than 6 months a year. They get 2-3 months off during the summer so if they have kids there is no child minding involved etc.
Also mid-terms are paid holidays etc etc. Some teachers also work short days etc so a pay freeze for them is in order IMO.

The_Conductor

jonny24ie wrote: »

Plus the fact that teachers get paid mad sums of money to work for less than 6 months a year. They get 2-3 months off during the summer so if they have kids there is no child minding involved etc.
Also mid-terms are paid holidays etc etc. Some teachers also work short days etc so a pay freeze for them is in order IMO.

I'm certainly not a teacher- but can you picture yourself in front of a class of 30 brats hurling abuse at you constantly?

Kimbot

smccarrick wrote: »

I'm certainly not a teacher- but can you picture yourself in front of a class of 30 brats hurling abuse at you constantly?

I used to go out with a girl who both parents were teachers and they way they put it was that abuse only happened on very rare occassions.
Her father at one point hadn't had any trouble in over 3-4 years. He was teaching in secondary school and it was all boys so normally they do be fairly bad.