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Atheists and Incest? Yay or Nay?

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    #122
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Burial wrote: »
    I would like to hear your logical reasoning behind not hiring people, based on who they are married to, rather then their skill.

    not based on who they are married to based on the fact that they are doing the insest. logic : i would be seen as approving and would loose business

    incest is against evolution and surviaal of the fittest why are poeople not allowed mastrubate in the library?
    because its gross it stops others from being able to relax
    what if they are quiet? see its soo offputting that it wouldn't matter they however are not harming anyone and if you don't like it don't look

    some things are beyond the pale

    why is murder illegal?
    i caught someone stealing from me on wednesdaybut instead of being true to nature nd beating his face in i just fired him and that was that why?
    because i am civillicsed i eat with a knife and fork, let people in at t junctions and don't shag my sister

    explainto me why really why mastrubation in public is not allowed
    why i cant shag my wife over the bonnet of my car when i'm down and bored at a picnic is it not bnecause civillised behaviour is tangable

    this crap that comes out about in privatethis and in private that is nonsense once i know they are doing it then its not in private so i would not hire them
    iu'd rather hire the old blolke that likes to jack off in the library


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    #123
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Tigger wrote: »
    incest is against evolution and surviaal of the fittest
    No it is not, perhaps you'd care to show proof that it is.
    Except when dealing with an existing genetic disorder the risks are not substitutional raised in isolated cases.


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    #124
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Tigger, I have to insist you keep the tone of the debate somewhat more adult please.
    Tigger wrote:
    this crap that comes out about in privatethis and in private that is nonsense once i know they are doing it then its not in private so i would not hire them
    Just drop the analogies to public indecency laws, they are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Sex in any form is not tolerated in public so it has no bearing on the topic of incestuous sex.

    Whether or not you would hire an individual in such a relationship, is your business tbh. I can't see it becoming part of labour equality laws any time soon.


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    #125
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    Tigger wrote: »
    i disagree; can we discuss consent
    i think that if a child is indoctrinated to believe that his father is allowed roger him once the age of consent is reached is he fully able to give consent?

    i think that my
    dog is far more likley to give a fully formed decision on whetrher he wants to have sex then tis stunted person raised by a freak


    But bestiality can never be legalised because there's no clear cut consent. Animals cannot communicate unambiguously with humans, so what's to stop a human raping a goat? Let's say a guy of 6'7", 25st decides to hold down a goat and have his way, despite obvious protest from the animal. Any witness who reports an act of cruelty has no leg to stand on, because the perpetrator can always just claim the animal gave consent. Animals can't sit down in court and say otherwise. And where do we draw the line? What animals can and can't we have sex with? Should we decide by species? By weight? Size? It would be unspeakably cruel to have sex with a chicken.

    However, an adult human can both report a crime and gave unambiguous consent. So on what grounds can we take away the human liberty for two people two choose to have sex?


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    #126
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    Incest provokes a gut reaction of repulsion. Not the moral outrage of the civilized mind, but the gut-twisting yank of something more fundamentally wrong. There shouldn't be a need to explain it is wrong when it is fundamentally, instinctively wrong. Not getting that suggests a detachment from reality. Someone who actually commits incest is not right in the head. It's as wrong as the sky is blue. Ask someone to tell you how they know the sky is blue and they'll have the same sort of difficulty as in telling you incest is wrong.

    Incest transgrsses natural boundaries. Committing incest suggests someone who is unaware of these boundaries or able to ignore them - a sociopath.

    The species most genetically similar to humans is the pygmy chimp. Pygmy chimps have sex constantly and indiscriminately. With them the only coupling that seems taboo is between mother and adult offspring. But we're not pygmy chimps.


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    #127
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    pwd wrote: »
    Incest provokes a gut reaction of repulsion. Not the moral outrage of the civilized mind, but the gut-twisting yank of something more fundamentally wrong. There shouldn't be a need to explain it is wrong when it is fundamentally, instinctively wrong. Not getting that suggests a detachment from reality. Someone who actually commits incest is not right in the head. It's as wrong as the sky is blue. Ask someone to tell you how they know the sky is blue and they'll have the same sort of difficulty as in telling you incest is wrong.

    Incest transgrsses natural boundaries. Committing incest suggests someone who is unaware of these boundaries or able to ignore them - a sociopath.

    The species most genetically similar to humans is the pygmy chimp. Pygmy chimps have sex constantly and indiscriminately. With them the only coupling that seems taboo is between mother and adult offspring. But we're not pygmy chimps.
    Congrats on the most ridiculous post since the previous one I replied to.


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    #128
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »
    So on what grounds can we take away the human liberty for two people two choose to have sex?

    are we talking parent/age of consented child incest here

    as in a father and his 18 year old daughter?


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    #129
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    pwd wrote: »
    It's as wrong as the sky is blue.
    What if you're colourblind?

    Suggesting that having a "gut feeling" makes something a moral absolute is exactly the same as claiming that God must exist becuase you have a "gut feeling" that he does.


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    #130
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    Dave! wrote: »
    Congrats on the most ridiculous post since the previous one I replied to.
    wow
    mind boggles - I've just been told it's ridiculous not to think incest is an okey dokey thing to do.
    You're a motherfucker.
    Technically you shouldn't perceive that as an insult.


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    #131
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    Tigger wrote: »
    are we talking parent/age of consented child incest here

    as in a father and his 18 year old daughter?

    I'm talking about two adults, both over the age of consent.

    I'm not talking about:

    1) How personally disgusting we find it.

    2) Animals.

    3) Rape.


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    #132
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    pwd wrote: »
    wow
    mind boggles - I've just been told it's ridiculous not to think incest is an okey dokey thing to do.
    You're a motherfucker.
    Technically you shouldn't perceive that as an insult.
    Sterling contribution old chap. You'll last!


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    #133
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    seamus wrote: »
    What if you're colourblind?

    Suggesting that having a "gut feeling" makes something a moral absolute is exactly the same as claiming that God must exist becuase you have a "gut feeling" that he does.
    I was actually trying to distinguish it from morals altogether and put it in the context of instinct.
    By gut-feeling I am referring to instinctive feelings. I don't think people have instinctive feelings about the existence of a god.


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    #134
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    Dave! wrote: »
    Sterling contribution old chap. You'll last!
    oh no i might get banned from an internet forum :O
    sterling contribution wtf. One line responses saying posts are ridiculous are not contributions.


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    #135
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    pwd wrote: »
    oh no i might get banned from an internet forum :O
    sterling contribution wtf. One line responses saying posts are ridiculous are not contributions.
    Okay how about this: humans are innately xenophobic. It's a trait that's been programmed into us by evolution, because historically societies were divided into small bands of tribes. Should our laws therefore comply with this gut instinct to only (for example) hire people that look the same as us? Or should we perhaps rage against this instinct and write laws based on rational analysis rather than emotion?


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    #136
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    I would have assumed that most people on this section of boards were skeptics and rationalists, and would not be putting forth the idea that something is right or wrong just because they feel it is. Gut feelings are the enemy of reason.


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    #137
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    pwd wrote: »
    By gut-feeling I am referring to instinctive feelings. I don't think people have instinctive feelings about the existence of a god.
    How do you distinguish an instinctive feeling from a normal one? What classifies a feeling as being "instinctual"?


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    #138
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Dave! wrote: »
    Congrats on the most ridiculous post since the previous one I replied to.

    so you are saying a post saying incest is wrong is ridiculous?


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    #139
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Tigger wrote: »
    so you are saying a post saying incest is wrong is ridiculous?
    What he meant is that pwd's "proof" of incest's "wrongness" is ridiculous.


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    #140
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    i will ask it again

    are people saying that a man and his daughter should be allowed have sex providing she is over the age of consent

    and in france the age of consent is 15

    so is it ok for a 15 year old to have sex with her father


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    #141
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    15, no. She's still not an adult.

    Outside of that, I don't see the harm to society when two adults consentingly engage in whatever, privately.

    Do you?


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    #142
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    <mod> pwd is taking an enforced break for obvious reasons. </mod>
    Tigger wrote:
    are people saying that a man and his daughter should be allowed have sex providing she is over the age of consent
    I've already said I'd be hesitant to legalise parent/child sex, for fear of potential abuse.

    France's age of consent is irrelevant here, btw. You are only serving to sensationalise the argument by bringing it up.


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    #143
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Dades wrote: »
    France's age of consent is irrelevant here, btw. You are only serving to sensationalise the argument by bringing it up.

    Indeed, since this is a largely academic discussion, I think it's fair to say that when someone says "adult", they mean, "Someone of sufficiently mature years that they are capable of making reasoned and intelligent decisions about how to live their own life".

    Whether I think that occurs at age 7, 12, 15, 18 or 50, is irrelevant.


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    #144
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Dades wrote: »
    <mod> pwd is taking an enforced break for obvious reasons. </mod>

    I've already said I'd be hesitant to legalise parent/child sex, for fear of potential abuse.

    France's age of consent is irrelevant here, btw. You are only serving to sensationalise the argument by bringing it up.

    no i am not

    what then is the defination of sexual being able to decide on their wilingness to chose a sexual partner
    possaibly their ma


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    #145
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Tigger wrote: »
    so you are saying a post saying incest is wrong is ridiculous?

    Yes... Not by virtue of the fact that he says incest is wrong, of course, but because of his reasoning.
    Tigger wrote: »
    i will ask it again

    are people saying that a man and his daughter should be allowed have sex providing she is over the age of consent

    and in france the age of consent is 15

    so is it ok for a 15 year old to have sex with her father

    What a strawman. That's like in a debate on alcohol asking is it okay then for me to get drunk, jump in a car, and drive through the supermarket, killing all in my way.

    How about we start with a mild example shall we? Two adult (to be sure -- because you seem obsessed with the age thing -- let's go with 30 year olds) siblings. Why should they not be allowed to have a sexual relationship?

    Once that point is resolved, then we can move on to more complicated situations such as parent-child relationships.


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    #146
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Dades wrote: »
    <mod> pwd is taking an enforced break for obvious reasons. </mod>

    pwd typed this up so i will post it for him
    you can tell its not mine by the lack of dislexia

    Steppenwolf by hermann hesse is a philosophical novel discussing a man's inner conflict between the civilized and the primal aspects of his personality.
    Reading that as a teenager I took from it the need to get in touch with one's inner animal.
    Thinking about it as an adult I took from that the need to be able to transcend the animal inside to be civilized as well as to reconcile it.

    There is a point to what I'm saying here. Working and employment should generally be civilized areas of life. The consummate professional should be detached from instinct in the context of their work.

    Incest is a different kettle of fish altogether. Sex is intrinsically an emotional and instinctive thing. Family is also an instinctive and emotional thing.
    didn't get to post that


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    #147
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Dave! wrote: »
    Yes... Not by virtue of the fact that he says incest is wrong, of course, but because of his reasoning.



    What a strawman. That's like in a debate on alcohol asking is it okay then for me to get drunk, jump in a car, and drive through the supermarket, killing all in my way.

    How about we start with a mild example shall we? Two adult (to be sure -- because you seem obsessed with the age thing -- let's go with 30 year olds) siblings. Why should they not be allowed to have a sexual relationship?

    Once that point is resolved, then we can move on to more complicated situations such as parent-child relationships.

    i don't know what a strawman is

    i have already conceded the point on adult siblings

    read the whole thread please before you call me names


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    #148
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    For me, the debate on whether or not incest should be made legal boils down to one very simple concept:

    If we are going to take away people's liberty, we need a very good reason to do so.

    If I was a gambling man, I'd probably bet that nobody on this thread wants to take part in this act for themselves. This debate is about OTHER people, and what does or does not give us the right to meddle with their private lives. As a rationalist, no amount of appealing to emotion will sway me on the issue.


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    #149
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Tigger wrote: »
    pwd typed this up so i will post it for him
    you can tell its not mine by the lack of dislexia
    Posting by proxy?! Hmmm, we'll let it go...
    Tigger wrote: »
    read the whole thread please before you call me names
    FYI, he wasn't calling you names. To quote wiki - "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position". He was referring to your argument.

    Carry on!


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    #150
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Dades wrote: »
    - "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position". He was referring to your argument.

    my argument is that i have two issues

    1 i will not employ practicesers of incest
    2 i dissaprove of parent child incest

    i then asked for clarification of consent

    in the absence of clarification of concent i found that in france the age of concent for sexual acts is 15

    this is not a strawman this is a question i have asked whether anyone here can tell me they approve of parent child sexual congress and if so at what age

    france was an example


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    #151
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Tigger wrote: »
    france was an example
    Firstly what they do in France is irrelevant. We're talking about Irish legislation.

    Secondly, being over the age of consent does not by default make you an adult in the eyes of the law. It makes you over the age of consent. What most people here seem to be saying, is that adults should be allowed to practice in private what they consent to do.


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