Is it ok to vulture-pick at carcasses?

flickerx

If you see a bike thats obviously falling into disrepair around the city centre, is it morally justifiable to take the parts that you need from it?

Raam

flickerx wrote: »

If you see a bike thats obviously falling into disrepair around the city centre, is it morally justifiable to take the parts that you need from it?

I say go for it, it's recycling

Heinrich

NO!

It's not your property. Simple really.

BUACHAILL

I will sit on the fence with this one
I would just be careful your disrepair might be someone else's " cant afford to fix it

Raam

I would expect he is referring to bikes which are very obviously abandoned, and not ones which are just rubbish bikes.

Heinrich

Raam wrote: »

I would expect he is referring to bikes which are very obviously abandoned, and not ones which are just rubbish bikes.

Even if it is abandoned it's still not your property so NO again.

BUACHAILL

thats why i sat on the fence :-)

Raam

Heinrich wrote: »

Even if it is abandoned it's still not your property so NO again.

If it's abandoned, then it's no ones property.

Heinrich

Raam wrote: »

If it's abandoned, then it's no ones property.

True and that applies to the chap who wants to pinch the parts. It's not his nor anybody's.

Cheapskating!

Raam

Heinrich wrote: »

True and that applies to the chap who wants to pinch the parts. It's not his nor anybody's.

Cheapskating!

So what harm then?

Heinrich

Raam wrote: »

So what harm then?

Harm is not the issue - morals is.

If you don't own it leave it alone.

Raam

Heinrich wrote: »

Harm is not the issue - morals is.

If you don't own it leave it alone.

So it's OK then.

Heinrich

Raam wrote: »

So it's OK then.

NO!

Raam

Flicerx, you've already made two of us start arguing and it's not even 9.30 yet. So, have you been lightening the load of some bikes?

TinyExplosions

I think if it's obviously abandoned, and has been for some time, there's no problem with recycling it and taking what you need.

I think it's pretty clear if a bike has been abandoned

Heinrich

Raam wrote: »

Flicerx, you've already made two of us start arguing and it's not even 9.30 yet. So, have you been lightening the load of some bikes?

I'm not arguing, I'm moralising and trying to prevent petty larceny and vandalism.

stuf

Heinrich wrote: »

I'm not arguing, I'm moralising and trying to prevent petty larceny and vandalism.

There's plenty of bikes around dublin which have been vandalised and then abandoned by their owners - why is it morally wrong to salvage from something that nobody cares about?

flickerx - I would leave a note on the bike for a fortnight and then get stuck in with your tools.

Chips Lovell

Wouldn't do it, but always have thought it was a shame to see some old bikes abandoned. Might you be better off ringing the City Council and asking who takes the bikes away, where they go and if its alright to salvage parts before they put them in landfill or whatever they do with them?

Heinrich

stuf wrote: »

There's plenty of bikes around dublin which have been vandalised and then abandoned by their owners - why is it morally wrong to salvage from something that nobody cares about?

flickerx - I would leave a note on the bike for a fortnight and then get stuck in with your tools.

There are many reasons why a bige might appear to be abandoned and it is still does not belong to you. I would suggest a trip to the dump if you are looking for dumped bikes.

niceonetom

if it's genuinely abandoned - i.e has been there for a few weeks - then i fail to see any problem with reusing the bits. the alternative is that eventually the council/corpo will cut it off and bin the whole lot. how does that benefit anyone?

i also can't see how anything that causes no harm to anyone can be considered immoral.

flickerx - are you cruising the street with a multitool feeding your fixie habit? slippery slope man, make sure your definition of carcass remains nice and strict .

Bicyclegadabout

I'm ok with it, in theory.

I say no to consumerist waste, I say yes to individual civic responsibility, recycling, and interesting looking bicycles.

peterk19

im ok as long as ive noticed its abandoned and falling into disrepair over the course of a few months ive actually got my eye on an old steel dawes frame that will make a nice fixie front wheel went missing on it last week so i might take a drive some week soon and grab it

blorg

OK if it is _definately_ abandoned. stuf's suggestion of sticking a note on is a good one but I might even give it a bit longer than two weeks- owner could be on holiday, etc.

Harpz

I second that, I think timeframe should be months at least.

Heinrich

Harpz wrote: »

I second that, I think timeframe should be months at least.

There is no timeframe! The stuff is not your property and if the Council dump it that is their prerogative. You don't make the laws you simply abide by them.

niceonetom

Heinrich wrote: »

There is no timeframe! The stuff is not your property and if the Council dump it that is their prerogative. You don't make the laws you simply abide by them.

i honestly don't understand your point. if you think the council can legitimately take it away it must presumably be considered refuse, yes? would you have a problem with someone picking up any other piece of refuse if they had a use for it?

i doubt that picking up rubbish is illegal. the question is at what point does someone's abandoned property become ownerless litter?

km991148

el tonto wrote: »

Wouldn't do it, but always have thought it was a shame to see some old bikes abandoned. Might you be better off ringing the City Council and asking who takes the bikes away, where they go and if its alright to salvage parts before they put them in landfill or whatever they do with them?

I think they are taken by the police and auctioned off along with lost/stolen bikes? I went to an auction at kevin st garda and they had lots consisting of 40-50 frames/ carcases each;

oobydooby

Anyone know where bikes are finally dumped?

I used to pick bits and pieces off bikes dumped in the recycling place near Ringsend but the last year I haven't been allowed to go near them for some reason (probably a good reason but I was annoyed about the rule).

In general, I think it's a bad idea to be picking bits off bikes that haven't been dumped. If I saw somebody hovering over a bike, even a seemingly abandoned one, I'd challenge them. Leave 'em RIP I say.

flickerx

niceonetom wrote: »

flickerx - are you cruising the street with a multitool feeding your fixie habit? slippery slope man, make sure your definition of carcass remains nice and strict .

Ah here c'mon! You're making me sound like a Fagin-esque thief.
But yes, I did take a saddle from a wreck at the weekend. The wheels were both warped beyond recovery, the chain was rusted, the brakes and gear cables were either cut or hanging off. It was there for weeks. I dont feel bad about it at all.

But yes, of course I think that a bike should be really abandoned before picking at it. I wont be pulling the saddle off a brand new "abandoned" cannondale synapse thats been left locked up on the street for ten minutes.

I think there's a huge throwaway culture in dublin/ireland these days, people dont even bother to get something like a new wheel if theirs gets jumped on by drunks and warped, they just say "oh i'll just buy a new one" instead of putting in the time and work to bring it back up to working order, and leave it in the street.

blorg

Heinrich wrote: »

There is no timeframe! The stuff is not your property and if the Council dump it that is their prerogative. You don't make the laws you simply abide by them.

Heinrich, in law abandoned property becomes the property of whoever finds and takes possession of it first.

beans

A friend of mine, to whom I was going to sell my old bike, told me that at the first sign of it not working correctly he'd stop using it - he cited new brakes as an example.

Point being, yes some people subscribe to the 'just buy a new one' mentality.

Personally, I wouldn't scavenge from a stripped-down bike on the street. I would from a bin!

Heinrich

blorg wrote: »

Heinrich, in law abandoned property becomes the property of whoever finds and takes possession of it first.

Two points here;

can you back up your legal claim?

what is the criterium for abandoned property?

blorg

flickerx wrote: »

But yes, I did take a saddle from a wreck at the weekend. The wheels were both warped beyond recovery, the chain was rusted, the brakes and gear cables were either cut or hanging off. It was there for weeks.

I think that sounds pretty abandoned to me.

blorg

Heinrich wrote: »

Two points here;

can you back up your legal claim?

what is the criterium for abandoned property?

I only have Wikipedia which deals with the concept in English common law (our legal system.) You are right that the criteria could be a tricky one, but in the example flickerx mentioned I think it is pretty clear it was abandoned.

Heinrich

blorg wrote: »

I only have Wikipedia which deals with the concept in English common law (our legal system.) You are right that the criteria could be a tricky one, but in the example flickerx mentioned I think it is pretty clear it was abandoned.

Don't bicycles have a serial number? Just a thought...

BUACHAILL

this is getting anal , forget common law
common sense must prevail and from what flickerx has said it was abandoned!!

I am sure in some cases its acceptable to do it and in others its not

Bicyclegadabout

Legal shmegal. A bit of cop on is what's required.

blorg

Heinrich wrote: »

Don't bicycles have a serial number? Just a thought...

Frames generally have a serial number but I don't see how that is relevant, it's not as if there is any central registration database.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

blorg wrote: »

Heinrich, in law abandoned property becomes the property of whoever finds and takes possession of it first.

I'm almost certain this is the case, and the wikipedia article is accurate.

Heinrich

blorg wrote: »

Frames generally have a serial number but I don't see how that is relevant, it's not as if there is any central registration database.

Some of these bicycles may have been stolen and abandoned by the thieves. The number is there for a reason.

If my bicycle was stolen in Drumcondra and ended up in Tallaght I would not be aware of this. So it's my broken cycle in Tallaght and even if it's all rusted it still belongs to me.

BUACHAILL

Heinrich you are now assuming !!
you dont know positively that the bikes were stolen first. Just like flickerx doesnt know positively they are abondoned. stop picking arguments

its a judgement call

Heinrich

BUACHAILL wrote: »

Heinrich you are now assuming !!
you dont know positively that the bikes were stolen first. Just like flickerx doesnt know positively they are abondoned. stop picking arguments

its a judgement call

Frankly it's not a judgement call. It is not your property - end of.

And as for me assuming:

Some of these bicycles may have been stolen and abandoned by the thieves

The emphasis is on may so that would preclude your judgement.

BUACHAILL

yes and the may not have been stolen
you got your point across already, no need to repeat yourself

niceonetom

i demand to be taken seriously.

only messing, we disagree - no big deal...

rubadub

Heinrich wrote: »

can you back up your legal claim?

what is the criterium for abandoned property?

I was hoping you might have that answer, you seem to be very concerned about this, thought you might be aware of such laws.

AFAIK there are laws about salvaging boats etc, so I would have presumed these exist too.

There is one bike I see all the time, maybe in the same spot for over year now, maybe several years. I was going to ask the gardai about it, might drop them an email and see about it. Will post on the legal forum too.

If my bicycle was stolen in Drumcondra and ended up in Tallaght I would not be aware of this. So it's my broken cycle in Tallaght and even if it's all rusted it still belongs to me.

AFAIK If you hand stuff in then it is held for a time and if not claimed the person who handed it in can claim it themselves. The stations would have to co-operate, I had heard anecdotes of people stealing in dublin, giving to rural garda stations and claiming after an allotted time.

I am not talking of pulling scams, the bike I am thinking of is rusting away and an eyesore and is obstructing people for the last year or more.

Kicked in bikes locked to legitimate bike racks get removed by the council I presume, so surely they must leave them there a certain time before removal.

fish-head

Work away, Flickerx! My first fixie was an abandoned frame, twas great!

copacetic

happened to a friend, left bike on a friday, someone stamped wheel when he went back for it on saturday. decided stupidly to leave it until the monday. On the monday, saddle, bottle cages, pedals and handlebars were gone.

It's simply theft.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

copacetic wrote: »

happened to a friend, left bike on a friday, someone stamped wheel when he went back for it on saturday. decided stupidly to leave it until the monday. On the monday, saddle, bottle cages, pedals and handlebars were gone.

It's simply theft.

That is theft. Salvaging an abandoned bike/parts is absolutely not.

rubadub

copacetic wrote: »

happened to a friend, left bike on a friday, someone stamped wheel when he went back for it on saturday. decided stupidly to leave it until the monday. On the monday, saddle, bottle cages, pedals and handlebars were gone.

It's simply theft.

People will "disable" a bike to come and rob it later, they might mess up the lock with glue etc and come back.

If they had left it 2 years and come back would you/they consider it "simply theft". What time is reasonable?

I have an old lawnmower taking up room in my shed, might lock it down at the local shops, just until I get around to fixing it in a year or so....

niceonetom

copacetic wrote: »

happened to a friend, left bike on a friday, someone stamped wheel when he went back for it on saturday. decided stupidly to leave it until the monday. On the monday, saddle, bottle cages, pedals and handlebars were gone.

It's simply theft.

in fairness i don't think that's an example of what we're talking about here. no one has suggested that parts would be fair game in the type of situation you're recounting.

in this case i wouldn't be surprised if the vandal and the thief were the same person.

copacetic

could well be, as I mentioned above it was stupid to leave it. but who is to say how long is 'long enough'. Personally I'd say months and months rather than weeks. Even then, it is still theft.

For all I know someone passed by, saw the buckled wheel, said to themselves that must be there a while and took the parts they like the look of. I personally doubt that the average thief is interested in parts. This was someone who wanted the bits to use on their own bike...