Dealing with people hunting without permission

eoinkildare

went out shooting last night in a great few fields close to my place. first thing when i arrived i found there was a car parked in my usual spot. i looked in it and saw there was a shotgun carry case, so i knew there were hunters out. i decided to leave my rifle in the car and go investigating. i should add i am one of two people who have permission on this land.
i stuck to the middle of the fields so that i wouldn't get shot and after exploring nearly all of the land i found two lads with shotguns walking the fields. of course i called them and they walked to me. i asked them if they had permission and they responded that they were just being cheeky and had seen a load of rabbits on the land so they thought they'd chance it. i was none too pleased let me say. the farmer who owns the land is very particular and if he thought i had brought people onto the land without permission that would be the end of the shooting forever. anyway, needless to say i removed them from the land and they told me i'd never see them again. i added of course that the next time i see their car in my spot i will call the farmer and the gardai.

so with the poacher hunting out of the way, i managed to get a bit of actual rabbit hunting in...

here's some of the results

eoin

bunny shooter

IMO you'd have been better off calling the farmer and advising him/her of the situation first, before you entered the land. He/she may have given out permission. Also if they were to be challenged it's better if the actual landowner does it. You do know that they'd be obliged to give their details if asked by the landowner

eoinkildare

they were obliged to give me there names anyway but thats for other reasons. i went to the farmer afterwards and he was happy i ran them. i have their details and if i see them again i'll be passing them to their local super for him to decide whether or not to revoke their licences

bunny shooter

eoinkildare wrote: »

they were obliged to give me there names anyway but thats for other reasons. i went to the farmer afterwards and he was happy i ran them. i have their details and if i see them again i'll be passing them to their local super for him to decide whether or not to revoke their licences

Unless you are a member of the Gardai why would they have to give you their names "for other reasons" Even then if your on private property, without the landowner present, could you request details ?

The Super would probably at least need a complaint signed by the landowner to revoke their licences and most landowners won't go down this road as they don't generally want to go to end up in court cases

IRLConor

bunny shooter wrote: »

You do know that they'd be obliged to give their details if asked by the landowner

If the landowner (or owner of the sporting rights) authorises you to take names and addresses you then get that power too.

EDIT: Relevant part of the law: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0039/sec0044.html Section 44 (2) (a) or (b)

bunny shooter

IRLConor wrote: »

If the landowner (or owner of the sporting rights) authorises you to take names and addresses you then get that power too.

EDIT: Relevant part of the law: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0039/sec0044.html Section 44 (2) (a) or (b)

Interesting, didn't know that, probably be good to have it in writing though

IRLConor

<SPLIT FROM THE PHOTOS THREAD>

bunny shooter wrote: »

Interesting, didn't know that, probably be good to have it in writing though

Definitely, it puts you on more solid ground.

Interestingly, if they refuse or give a misleading answer it's an offence. It's a surprising power to give to non-Gardai.

jwshooter

IRLConor wrote: »

<SPLIT FROM THE PHOTOS THREAD>



Definitely, it puts you on more solid ground.

Interestingly, if they refuse or give a misleading answer it's an offence. It's a surprising power to give to non-Gardai.

Thats all grand try bring a action against them eoin will have to bring the action against them as he seen them. He is the one that will have to go to court because if you take action thats where it will end up ,so its his word against them ,you would want a garda or wildlife ranger with you to take on the case for you ,even then its not black or white .other than that they only get a word of the local garda ..

IRLConor

It would probably be much easier if there was a Garda or NPWS ranger with him, but one of the other parts of that Section 44 is that the burden of proof rests on the offender not the accuser:

Wildlife Act 1976, Section 44 (7) (As amended) wrote:

In any proceedings for an offence under this section it shall not be necessary for the prosecutor to prove that, at the time of the offence, a defendant—

1. was on the land without lawful authority, or
2. was not the owner or occupier of the land,

and in case a defendant claims that he was on the land with lawful authority or is either the owner or occupier of the land, the onus of proving such authority, or that he is the owner or occupier of the land, shall be on the defendant.

That said, it would be up to eoin and the farmer to weigh up whether it was worth their while trying to get the Gardai/DPP to bring the case to court. It might just be too much hassle unless they're repeat offenders.

cavan shooter

Eoin
I'm not taking a pop here
I know how frustrating it is to have so called Poachers on your patch, but to approach lads like that and those guys armed is crazy.

Next time wait by the car until they have the guns put away then approach them

Grizzly 45

Folks,without sounding paranoid.Just because they have guns and are walking land these days,does not necessarily mean they are hunters!

I would seriously consider challenging anyone armed on my land these days.Yeah,the law might be on your side,but try arguing that point looking down a 12 GA muzzle.Not only that,unless you have a garda present or witness or wildlife ranger.It is your word against theirs.Plus if they see you and leave the property,your rights of law end at your boundary.You cannot challenge them on a public road,path or whatever once they have left your area of influence.Also be very wary of old rights of way or Mass paths that might run thru your shoot.They can claim that they were using this to traverse to another farm or ground.
I used to challenge people when I had a job as gamekeeper ,but was younger and proably stupider.But I was being paid then[somwhat] to do a job.Nowadays,I would rather let them go and find the reg of their car or whatever,and note it for future reference.If they return for second helpings..There are plenty of other ways of discouraging poachers from returning to your patch.All in all is it worth the legal and proably personal hassle for a brace of rabbits or a deer?

jwshooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Folks,without sounding paranoid.Just because they have guns and are walking land these days,does not necessarily mean they are hunters!

I would seriously consider challenging anyone armed on my land these days.Yeah,the law might be on your side,but try arguing that point looking down a 12 GA muzzle.Not only that,unless you have a garda present or witness or wildlife ranger.It is your word against theirs.Plus if they see you and leave the property,your rights of law end at your boundary.You cannot challenge them on a public road,path or whatever once they have left your area of influence.Also be very wary of old rights of way or Mass paths that might run thru your shoot.They can claim that they were using this to traverse to another farm or ground.
I used to challenge people when I had a job as gamekeeper ,but was younger and proably stupider.But I was being paid then[somwhat] to do a job.Nowadays,I would rather let them go and find the reg of their car or whatever,and note it for future reference.If they return for second helpings..There are plenty of other ways of discouraging poachers from returning to your patch.All in all is it worth the legal and proably personal hassle for a brace of rabbits or a deer?

grizz ..your fairly well sumed it up .but you can not lie down and let the poacher walk on you time ,money is spent on birds and deer leases each year .i spend many hours and nights looking after where i hunt . i dont mind doing it but wished i did not have too do it .if you can take a pic of the car or them on your ground keep relevent phone numbers at hand . its no harm to ring the gaurds with there imformation and explane what went on and next time you will take action .log all information .but be carfull

There is another hunting forum (an english one) which quite a few members here are also registered at where this was discussed quite a bit.

Couple of posts there really show why you don't go in gung ho.

eoinkildare

well without going into too many personal details of my job let me assure you guys i have experience dealing with people in this type of situation, have the legal knowledge and experience and i know when to back down and when to stand tough. i wouldn't recommend people take the same course as i did or do, but i'm comfortable enough doing it myself.
i've also been enforcing fisheries law and bye laws for the last few years and in those cases i'd be dealing with eastern europeans who have a tendency to be on the aggressive side, so i've gotten used to approaching people about these matters.

i would recommend all of you to call the gardai first before you approach any armed person in these situations though and if you can take pictures from a distance without being observed then all the better. word of warning though, the local gardai will not know the legislation in these matters and may not see it as particularly important, however they will generally help anyway, especially when firearms are involved.

eoin

Mac Tire

I had to run a couple of bums off a local patch of mines at the start of the year also...They were looking for a few foxes that i was looking after with the rifle for the local farmer....Long story cut short…. only ,my dad, my bro and me have permission to shoot the land. A gun club put up a sign claiming that they had it, the farmer blew it off the tree with a shotty!!!
The one condition that the farmer has is that no get dogs near any live stock, that’s fine by me, havn’t got a hunting dog yet....These two Muppets went up the middle of a flock of sheep with 2 ankle biting terriers on the lose...so i rang the farmer and got no answer, so me and the back-up, I mean brother went up to ask some questions....Drove up the road to were they were and got out of the jeep. Walked over to one and started some general chit chat, then asked if they had permission to be there, got the usually ‘why, what is it to you!’ and then I explained the craic about how we were the only people allowed to shoot it. He said he got permission, so I gave the wrong directions and a very bad description of the farmer, he said yeah that’s him…..Told him he hadn’t a clue who owned it and asked him what his name was, quoting the law in the above post, he laughed and told me to clear to the far fields of Farthering Wood, to which I asked them to leave the land with his dogs on a lease….
They finally walked to the road in the shortest route possible, not the way they came I might add…As they cleared the fence I asked them if they had emptied there semi-auto shoties, (as they were now on a public road) which I knew they hadn’t, they took some look at me, and then they emptied them……
I wouldn’t advise that anyone to this to people they might meet but having worked in a Nightclub for a nearly 9 years you get to know when people might be finished barking and getting ready to bite if you know what I mean, plus if you stand close enough the 30’ barrels of a semi-auto shotgun are fairly hard to swing around…

BryanL

Dogs in mangers spring to mind,
whats to be gained by calling the gardai on young fellas after rabbits?:eek:
theres guys on here boasting they have so much ground they can't even get to it in a season, has no one here in their entire time hunting never stretched a boundary?
Bryan

Grizzly 45

jwshooter wrote: »

grizz ..your fairly well sumed it up .but you can not lie down and let the poacher walk on you time ,money is spent on birds and deer leases each year .i spend many hours and nights looking after where i hunt . i dont mind doing it but wished i did not have too do it .if you can take a pic of the car or them on your ground keep relevent phone numbers at hand . its no harm to ring the gaurds with there imformation and explane what went on and next time you will take action .log all information .but be carfull

Oh..I never implied just to lie down and take it. I said there were "other"ways of dealing with the problem.;). one fellow I knew on the Continent used to be a great beliver in the Animal Liberation Front tactics. If he found a poachers rig in the forest. The local equivlent of ALF spray painted on the rig,usually cleared them from the area for good.:eek:
NOT THAT I AM ADVOCTING SUCH CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR ANYONE!!!

Thinking outside the box somtimes works wonders.Like a note and photo from the previous expedition.Saying somthing like "we are watching you:)"
Can work wonders on people being naughty.

touchyie

I agree to large degree with what is being said in this thread but based on the experiences that are being quoted I can see why people were frustrated with people in there area. I beleive that its all in the way you approach the situation. I have been caught on several occassions on land I did not have permission to be on. However I had tried to find out who owned the land and only when I could not contact the owner would I preceed. When I was approached I apologised and agreed that I did not have permission but explained I had tried to find the owner. I always treated the land with the greatest of respect and did the same with the person who approached me. I have only been told not to come back by one guy (out of 7) and as it turns out he was not even the land owner.
Moral of the story is I think that if you are polite, and respect the land, livestock and repect who ever approaches you you will more often than not find that person will treta you the same.
However if you are a plonker and develop an attitude you deserve to get a size 11 up your arse as you are turfed out the gate.

gkl

Sorry to be jumping in here but I was wondering do people have to get permission for shooting anything on anyone's land.
The reason I ask is a good few of the fella's in my area seem to go where they want unless there's no shooting signs up, this is what my brother had to do as he didn't want them on his land.

I not looking to cause trouble or anything I was just wondering as I did not know they needed to ask before they could.

Sparks

Yes gkl, they need permission first. Shooting on land you don't have permission for is quite illegal. (The lads in your area might already have permission from the landowners, don't forget)

touchyie

Hi GKL,
Not sure if you HAVE TO get permission to shoot on someones land but it would be prefairable. I do think though that it is not your right and if somebody approaches you over it have the decency to hear them out and respect there wishes if they are the owner or acting on behalf of the owner, also if you respect the property/ livestock most people would be willing to let you carry on, it also helps to card your membership card and insurance as it gives the landowner extra piece of mind......
I can see a lot of different opions being expressed in this matter!!!

Vegeta

touchyie wrote: »

Hi GKL,
Not sure if you HAVE TO get permission to shoot on someones land but it would be prefairable.

See post above yours

eoinkildare

its a criminal offence to shoot on land you dont have permission for

eoin

gkl

Thanks Lads, no I'm certain they don't have permission on some of the land as some of it belongs to family.
They really seem to go where they want unless there's signs up.

One other thing is that some fellas in the area used to lamp on public roads is this legal?
I don't know if they took shots from the road as I only seen them driving with the lamps on shining in on the land at the side of the road.

Sorry for all the questions, I just don't like idiots thinking they can do what they want while ruining it for others who obey the proper rules.

At least now I'll know where I stand for later on in the year.

meathstevie

There's absolutely nothing illegal in shining a spotlight from the public road. Firing a gun from the public road on the other hand is.

meathstevie

gkl, why don't you put up a few signs saying something like "No shooting without owners permission", "Lands preserved" and something the likes of that. It would sort your problem in a fairly non-confrontational manner and if the people you're mentioning still want to shoot your land they can still come and ask. Refusal or approval is up to you.

bunny shooter

meathstevie wrote: »

gkl, why don't you put up a few signs saying something like "No shooting without owners permission", "Lands preserved" and something the likes of that. It would sort your problem in a fairly non-confrontational manner and if the people you're mentioning still want to shoot your land they can still come and ask. Refusal or approval is up to you.

+1

whitser

BryanL wrote: »

Dogs in mangers spring to mind,
whats to be gained by calling the gardai on young fellas after rabbits?:eek:
theres guys on here boasting they have so much ground they can't even get to it in a season, has no one here in their entire time hunting never stretched a boundary?
Bryan

agreed. i dont think anyone here if they are honest can say they never set foot on land they didnt have permission.
calling the cops is a bit ott for their first meeting. leave a note on their car,explaining the situation.

Sam Kade

meathstevie wrote: »

gkl, why don't you put up a few signs saying something like "No shooting without owners permission", "Lands preserved" and something the likes of that. It would sort your problem in a fairly non-confrontational manner and if the people you're mentioning still want to shoot your land they can still come and ask. Refusal or approval is up to you.

Only problem is hunters in general ignore these signs.

Vegeta

Sam Kade wrote: »

Only problem is hunters in general ignore these signs.

wow way to take out the big tarring brush

for what its worth I don't agree

IRLConor

The problem with the unwritten rule way of doing it is that there's no way to know if you're breaking the law or not. Assuming that you're not since the landowner probably won't mind doesn't seem like a safe approach to me, given the potential consequences. The landowner may not want you shooting on their land because he's a grumpy old git. Or he may not want you on his land because there are already plenty of people shooting on it and he wants some quarry left for himself. Or he may have had a problem previously with people shooting unsafely on his land before and just wants to know who's going to be there and sound them out first to make sure they're not a complete muppet. Or maybe he just wants to make sure that anyone shooting on his land is insured.

From this city boy's perspective, wandering around on someone else's land, whether hunting or not, without asking first is rude, law or no law.

Perhaps borrowing Postel's Law might be appropriate: "Be conservative in what you do; be liberal in what you accept from others".

Sam Kade

Vegeta wrote: »

wow way to take out the big tarring brush

for what its worth I don't agree

Is that so for your information I am a landowner and have put up lands preserved signs only to have hunters ignoring them.

ivanthehunter

Sam Kade wrote: »

Is that so for your information I am a landowner and have put up lands preserved signs only to have hunters ignoring them.

why have you got the sign up? I know that you are fully entitled to do so and if you don't want folk in shooting then thats your choice.

But I'd like to know why thats all?

Sam Kade

ivanthehunter wrote: »

why have you got the sign up? I know that you are fully entitled to do so and if you don't want folk in shooting then thats your choice.

But I'd like to know why thats all?

It's to stop hunters with dog's. The dog's drive cattle mad the cattle run through fences it cost time and money to repair fences. The local gun club are allowed onto my land. You are also libable if a person injures themselves while on your land.