How do people deal with educating their children ?

Poncherello

I have a Question from someone who is probably an aetheist but hasnt spent much time thinking about it(until now)
I presume there are plenty of you out there that still got married in a church,(whether it might have been to keep your parents/spouse happy or whatever)
but how do you deal with educating your children on the subject of religion if say your spouse is catholic and would like to send her kids to a predominantly catholic school ?

Rgds & Thanks

From reading other threads I think there are a good few books I should read up on

robindch

Poncherello wrote: »

but how do you deal with educating your children on the subject of religion if say your spouse is catholic and would like to send her kids to a predominantly catholic school ?

You should have discussed that before having kids, and agreed to swap, say, church marriage and baptism (what she presumably wants), versus no religious instruction (what you presumably want). You could certainly try to negotiate this deal in retrospect, but you may have trouble doing that. Discussing the folly of segregation and the wisdom of integration may help; depends on the missus really.

There are lots of books out there on religion and what it's all about, but there's bugger all about how to deal with it when it shows up as welcome as shark at a babies' swimming class.

Poncherello

We are not married YET and definitely have no kids
Just trying to plan ahead
she's a tough cookie to deal with !

Tim Robbins

Poncherello wrote: »

I have a Question from someone who is probably an aetheist but hasnt spent much time thinking about it(until now)
I presume there are plenty of you out there that still got married in a church,(whether it might have been to keep your parents/spouse happy or whatever)
but how do you deal with educating your children on the subject of religion if say your spouse is catholic and would like to send her kids to a predominantly catholic school ?

Rgds & Thanks

From reading other threads I think there are a good few books I should read up on

It wouldn't bother me that much as long as its not too extreme and it didn't mean I had to lie. I'd hate to be accused of brainwashing my children into atheism by never allowing them have a religious experience and once they found out about various belief systems and religions, the chances of them adopting an extreme position really are very low. I'd also find it a bit weird making a big deal telling them God was definetely a man made delusion, but Santa is coming down the Chimney is factually sound.

Catholicism is no longer that extreme. They accept evolution, most modern science, mixed marriages and many Priests are quite well read up on Philosophy and Politics. Atheists who are generally good at arguing their points, Scofflaw, Robin, Schuart, Dades, Depeche Mode all know quite a lot about religion, so it may just be a necessity to go through the hoops to be able articulate one's atheism anyway.

It would seem to me the only difficulties will be:
1. When your child asks you personally about God. For that you should say something like, lots of people believe in God and lots of people don't and lots of people change their mind. But listen kido you have to respect people to have the right to belief what they want.

2. If any in - laws give you hassel and make you feel like you are the weirdo who doesn't go to mass, pray etc. This could be a big problem. It really depends on your in laws, how much they respect you, your decisions and beliefs.

3. School. Most primary schools are run by the RC church. This means your kid may not get into the school you wish unless they are RC.
Part of this is the non - RC 's fault. We simply haven't been making enough noise about it for the politicians to do anything about it.

Dades

My first is on the way, Poncherello.

He/she will be baptised - mostly because Mrs Dades and entire family are catholic. As a bonus it will be less of a headache when it comes to getting into schools. If the other half was of the same beliefs as me, there would be no baptism, but she's pushing the wee thing out so I don't see any point denying her what is essentially an enjoyable social ritual.

Have no real problem with RC schools, except in principle. Kids will believe what they will, and are more likely to listen to what their old man believes than some guy in a robe. Change will come (but slowly, no doubt in part to lightweight atheists as myself)!

Some robust discussion also to be found in this thread.

Asiaprod

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It wouldn't bother me that much as long as its not too extreme and it didn't mean I had to lie. I'd hate to be accused of brainwashing my children into atheism by never allowing them have a religious experience and once they found out about various belief systems and religions, the chances of them adopting an extreme position really are very low. I'd also find it a bit weird making a big deal telling them God was definetely a man made delusion, but Santa is coming down the Chimney is factually sound.

Nice post Tim, one of your best:)

Obni

Been through this and it's nothing to stress about. After all one of the great things about atheism is that there is no dogma to offend.

Similar to Dades, I have a catholic wife, and agreed to have them baptised and schooled under the r.c. system. After all, I came out of it in one piece.
I just made two conditions
1. I attend religious ceremonies but don't deal with any religious admin
2. I won't lie to the kids if asked a direct question

Most kids in this increasingly secular society take the whole god thing on-board with minimal fuss and almost complete apathy. Occassional interventions are inevitable, such as explaining to my concerned son, of about 7 years, that hell was made up to scare people too dumb or too mean to do the right thing into behaving themselves, and that he needn't worry about it. Other tactics involve answering religious questions with such old favourites as 'Well, what do you think?' or 'Go ask your mother!'.

Tim Robbins wrote:

I'd also find it a bit weird making a big deal telling them God was definetely a man made delusion, but Santa is coming down the Chimney is factually sound.

I have actually had this experience with my god-son, who last year declared his atheism to his 6th class teacher and refused to participate in religious class, but has recently had to be told before starting 1st year in Sept that the Santa is the same league as big G (this to avoid his becoming a centre of attention for bullies). We really are a strange species.

Tim Robbins

Obni wrote: »

Occassional interventions are inevitable, such as explaining to my concerned son, of about 7 years, that hell was made up to scare people too dumb or too mean to do the right thing into behaving themselves, and that he needn't worry about it. Other tactics involve answering religious questions with such old favourites as 'Well, what do you think?' or 'Go ask your mother!'.

I am just wondering about this. Could you not answer a question with a question:
"Does Hell exist?"
"Why do you think some people in Hell and others don't?"

i.e get them to think rather then tell them what to think?

Poncherello

Thanks for the comments

limerick_woody

Hi There,
I would echo most of what has been said above, particular DADE's comments. I recently read http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/ and i would highly recommend it, even though of course it has an American slant It offers lots of perspectives on raising our children as free-thinkers without the need for imaginary friends.

S

I didn't read the website, but the book...

ShoulderChip

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am just wondering about this. Could you not answer a question with a question:
"Does Hell exist?"
"Why do you think some people in Hell and others don't?"

i.e get them to think rather then tell them what to think?

ah now,
he's not a shaman living in a well,
he is a kid

Beruthiel

Poncherello wrote: »

We are not married YET and definitely have no kids
Just trying to plan ahead
she's a tough cookie to deal with !

Are you saying that she is very religious?

My daughter was baptised as my then husband wanted it and I didn't care either way.
The only school around was a running religious classes so she was exposed to religion that way.
We never once brought her inside a church or discussed religion unless she asked, at which point I would explain what others believe and what my thoughts were on that belief.
She asked to see the inside of a church before her first holy communion. Thought it was boring and only went through the whole thing because the rest of the class was doing it.
As she got older we would discuss all sorts. These days we can have long debates over a few drinks. Because of my very vocal atheism she has a very wide view and has no real time for the catholic religion, or any other for that matter.
She does find Paganism interesting. Nature attracts her. She's only 20 so I believe she has a ways to go yet when thinking things through to the end.

As long as your future wife has no problem with you giving your child your views there will be no problem.
If however, she insists you say nothing about your atheism, I personally would never agree with that.

gramlab

My 3 year old asked my wife how the baby got in her tummy yesterday (due soon). She couldn't think of anything and said holy god put it there. Later she was asking me about god and why, how, where etc. When I told her he lived in the sky I got the usual kids questions, gave the usual "because he does" answers, to which she replied - that sounds really stupid dad.

She shows promise;)

As regards baptism, communion and all the rest, I got her baptized and I will do the same for the new arrival. In this country it makes it easier for them while growing up. Whatever my beliefs might be my kids come first.

robindch

gramlab wrote: »

My 3 year old asked my wife how the baby got in her tummy yesterday (due soon). She couldn't think of anything and said holy god put it there.

Ye gods, does your wife not know?

And assuming she does, why didn't she tell your 3yo the truth, or some easily-understood variation on it?

gramlab

robindch wrote: »

And assuming she does, why didn't she tell your 3yo the truth, or some easily-understood variation on it?

My little girl at the stage of asking why until she runs out of breath, a simple explanation of the birds and bees would not have been so simple. She had asked my wife and she is still enough of an RC to come up with the holy god thing. Then again she seemed to think the god explanation was silly and stopped asking quickly enough.:D

Personally I see no harm in it.

Beruthiel

gramlab wrote: »

My 3 year old asked my wife how the baby got in her tummy yesterday (due soon). She couldn't think of anything and said holy god put it there.

I'm a firm believer in when the question is asked, you're ready for the answer.
When my daughter was 4 she asked that question, I told her the truth. I had bought a childrens book previously on the subject (as I knew it would be asked eventually) she took it on board no problem.
Never shy away from the truth, it only complicates matters.

gramlab

Beruthiel wrote: »

I'm a firm believer in when the question is asked, you're ready for the answer.
When my daughter was 4 she asked that question, I told her the truth. I had bought a childrens book previously on the subject (as I knew it would be asked eventually) she took it on board no problem.
Never shy away from the truth, it only complicates matters.

Not shying away from anything. She is just 3. She believes she is a princess, she thinks her toy dog is real and now she thinks a flying man in the sky is responsible for her new baby brother/sister.

I will bring her up to make up her own mind about things, just like I did. I think telling her absolutes like that at her age would be the same as a Christian forcing god onto their child.

Beruthiel

gramlab wrote: »

I think telling her absolutes like that at her age would be the same as a Christian forcing god onto their child.

Forcing god on a child is not factual based.
Talking about a natural subject which is actually fact is entirely different.

Zillah

gramlab wrote: »

I think telling her absolutes like that at her age would be the same as a Christian forcing god onto their child.

Thats really stupid. Hows that for an absolute?

Tim Robbins

gramlab wrote: »

Not shying away from anything. She is just 3. She believes she is a princess, she thinks her toy dog is real and now she thinks a flying man in the sky is responsible for her new baby brother/sister.

I will bring her up to make up her own mind about things, just like I did. I think telling her absolutes like that at her age would be the same as a Christian forcing god onto their child.

I am with Gramlab on this one. He is not trying to claim objective truth. Beruthiel is, this seems to be difference.

gramlab

Beruthiel wrote: »

Forcing god on a child is not factual based.
Talking about a natural subject which is actually fact is entirely different.

As I have said, she believes in a lot of things which are not real. None of those harm me or more importantly her right now. When the time comes that I think she needs to be told otherwise I will tell her. Although if I do my job properly I am sure I wouldn't need to tell her anything.

gramlab

Zillah wrote: »

Thats really stupid. Hows that for an absolute?

Many apologies. Didn't know we all had to agree about things on this forum. Please send me details on how you think I should bring her up. I will follow your wishes exactly.

Think I can leave the smilie out!

--amadeus--

I agree with teh idea that if a question is asked in good faith then it needs a good faith answer. My two (nearly 5 & nearly 7) both know that "sex makes babies" but have no very clear idea of what "sex" is - although they tell me that it involves a lot of hugging and rolling around (!) Kids can smell BS a mile away and gaps and details will get filled in when detailed questions start to get asked, I personally think it's disrespectful to thier intelligence not to do so and it prevents any barrier to open and honest communication down the line (no matter how uncomfortable I feel when it's brought up at the dinner table, much to thier and thier mothers amusment!)

Back OT my OH agreed to ours being raised veggie as long as I didn't enforce atheism on them. It works fairly well - if they outright ask to try meat then she lets them (it's happened once or twice). Likewise if they ask a direct question about god I give a direct answer and I make sure that they know that RC is only one of many religions.

Trade offs are the key - I cook meat for Mrs A despite being a veggie. The trade off in return is that I will not set foot inside a church in teh run up to any first communion. If the partnership has any strength then getting the right balance won't be hard.

robindch

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I agree with teh idea that if a question is asked in good faith then it needs a good faith answer. [...] Kids can smell BS a mile away [...] I personally think it's disrespectful to thier intelligence not to do so and it prevents any barrier to open and honest communication down the line

+10.

DinoBot

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd also find it a bit weird making a big deal telling them God was definetely a man made delusion, but Santa is coming down the Chimney is factually sound.

Well then why lie about that ? For kids to enjoy the santa story it doesn't have to be factually sound. For example, kids love stories about talking animals but they also know animals don't talk.

ChocolateSauce

Kids will believe anything you tell them, but only if you repeatedly say it and promise you're not lying, because they trust adults instinctually. The first time? They see right through BS.

If they can ask the question they're ready to hear the true, factual answer.