Celbridge Buses

angrycommuter80

Just wanted to see if anyone else was having problems getting to work since the mortons circle line closure? I had to walk from an estate on the ardclough road this morning to a bus stop on the Maynooth Road to get the bus, it was standing room only! An insepctor was on the bus someone challenged him if they were putting on any more buses and he again reffered back to the dept of transport? Hopefully his presence on the bus meant that DB were monitoring the situation?? However not pleasent for the commuters squashed like sardines on the bus in the morning!:mad:

armada104

For numerous reasons, the inspector was probably right to blame the Department of Transport. Read this thread, especially the posts by KC61 and AlekSmart to understand what's going on.

KC61

armada104 wrote: »

For numerous reasons, the inspector was probably right to blame the Department of Transport. Read this thread, especially the posts by KC61 and AlekSmart to understand what's going on.

As I said in the other thread, DB have to apply to the Department to even operate the larger buses on the Lucan corridor, let alone operate additional buses!!

There are no spare buses floating around the DB fleet, as the 100 additional vehicles have now been pressed into service or are earmarked for other services (Blanchardstown), so unless some routes are culled, the only option DB have is to switch the tri-axles from route 10 to the Lucan QBC, which I would imagine they are in the process of obtaining permission to do.

And yes the Department is the relevant body to complain to, as they are the block to any real improvement in public transport in Dublin with their exceptionally narrow interpretation of the 1932 Bus Licensing Act.

markf909

Put your issue in writing to

Julie O'Neill,
Transport House,
Kildare Street
Dublin 2


She's the person who is responsible for all this in the end.

Obviously writing to your local FF TD's will help get the ear of the Transport Minister but its unlikely to affect any change.

Only the DoT can do that.

AlekSmart

I can only second the other posters advices regarding what to do next.

Word reaches us today that Dublin Bus depot`s are to be visited shortly by a "Team" of inspectors/advisors/2nd principal officers who are to carry out "Observations" on how the places are run

Since AD 2002 the Department of Transport has kept a V E R Y tight grip on the day to day running of Dublin Bus.
Divisional Managers have had to satisfy a seemingly insatiable appetite for Statistics on virtually every aspect of a Depots operations.
The point about this is that The Department is ALREADY in possession of as much Information and raw statistics as would choke a bullock....yet we are now given to understand they require more....?

This is yet another example of administration for it`s own sake,plenty of noise,and coloured smoke but NOTHING concrete which could in any way be attributable to any specific official or Minister.

Take for example the curent Dublin Bus ticketing system of Wayfarer TGX.
This is a highly adaptable system which offers vast capability in terms of live capture or download of Bus,Route,Duty or Driver specific data.

Yet it now appears the Department require a Man with a quill and inkpot who will sit on an elevated platform and write slowly and laboriously on a vast amount of topics...none of which will include a single EXTRA Bus seat on the Lucan corridor.

There are a number of options open to Dublin Bus which could effect some REAL short term relief for the N4 Corridor routes.
One of these would be to IMMEDIATELY suspend the current Bus withdrawal programme and to IMMEDIATELY recommission the vehicles already withdrawn and awaiting disposal and place then IMMEDIATELY into service on the now un serviced "Circle Line" Corridor.

What the Department are currently involved in is little more than denial and obfuscation in order to continue this bizzarre "Pending Legal Challenge" nonsense.

Mr Dempsey has lately been waxing lyrical on the topic of "Sustainability" in public transport and I for one can see no better place to start displaying a committment to "Sustainability" than along the Lucan Corridor NOW.

All those in favour please note the facilitator`s Name and Address :

Ms Julie O Neill.
Secretary General.
Department of Transport.
Transport House.
Kildare St
Dublin 2.

I would also recommend a copy of any letter be sent to:
Mr Frank Fahy TD.
Chairman.
Jount Committee on Transport.
Leinster House.
Dublin2.

The reason for this is that the Committee has been to the forefront in asking arkward questions of the numerous Departmental general factotums,BUT,the difference being that the Civil Servants actually had to provide ANSWERS to the committee even if under priviledge.

For example,the Joint Committee is the ONLY forum whose members have been calling for attention to OFF-PEAK Bus Services as a very viable response which could be expidited at virtually nil cost when compared to the potential returns especially in these times of extortionate fuel costs..

There are more than enough Studies,Reports and Discussion Documents currently lying on the Secretary Generals desk and I am suggesting that she does not need any more !!

Buffman

I'm considering cycling to hazelhatch and training it from there. If you want a seat on a 67/x your gonna have to go up to the crodaun/aldi end of the town!

I agree with those above, db's hands are more or less tied by dot. I urge everyone affected to write to Ms Julie O Neill as suggested, and also to every local TD and councillor ye can think off. Seems to be the only way anything will change.

markf909

Noel Dempsey sent me a (personally signed) letter saying he would be in touch about it.

Thats how seriously they are taking it :rolleyes:

tvnutz

Buffman wrote: »

I'm considering cycling to hazelhatch and training it from there. If you want a seat on a 67/x your gonna have to go up to the crodaun/aldi end of the town!

ye i noticed that so i just get the 67 and another bus from town into ballsbridge. dont know if i could stand for 45mins on a crowded bus at 7.30am :P damn i miss the mortons buses.

J-B

I have had difficulty all week getting to work, I live in Raphael's Manor so thoguht I would be able to get the 120 but twice wasn't able to get on the bus as it was already full by the time it got to Celbridge. Walked into the village this morning and got a 67X which was also totally packed so loads of people had to stand the whole way in. I have written to the local TDs and will also write to the people mentioned by other posters. I really feel that we have to take a strong stand on this as the level of public transport provided for a town of Celbridge's population is ridiculous - I also think that they need to look at having alternate Dublin Bus routes from either side of Celbridge or increasing the amount of 120 buses going through Celbridge, it is not going to be pleasant in the winter having to walk into town in the pitch dark.

angrycommuter80

Well its now Thursday on the first week with the lack of services. And J-B I agree re the 120 buses which are coming from Edenderry they are full of early morning country commuters and are full by the time they get to the village. The 7.30X is full before its gets to the village anyone getting on at the xtravision stop is left standing. I understand there may be one local representative not from FF I may add is working hard on this issue so lets hope we get some results soon. Its getting to be a joke now and as you say J-B if it continues on to winter when the buses are fuller and the mornings are darker(even though this mornign wasnt so nice!)

markf909

angrycommuter80 wrote: »

Well its now Thursday on the first week with the lack of services. And J-B I agree re the 120 buses which are coming from Edenderry they are full of early morning country commuters and are full by the time they get to the village. The 7.30X is full before its gets to the village anyone getting on at the xtravision stop is left standing. I understand there may be one local representative not from FF I may add is working hard on this issue so lets hope we get some results soon. Its getting to be a joke now and as you say J-B if it continues on to winter when the buses are fuller and the mornings are darker(even though this mornign wasnt so nice!)

Guys I can only stress that you write to the top civil servant mentioned above.

Tell her honestly that it is her responsibility.

However, the bad news is that it is more likely to be months rather than weeks before the DoT do anything. Public transport is not something they care about as the top brass all have free car parking spaces so buses are an alien concept to them.

Also, get in touch with your local FF TD (Aine Brady? ).
Ring all of your local FF councilors. They can at least get the ear of the Minister.

HydeRoad

I've bad news for you folks, June, July and August were traditionally light months on Circle Line, when there weren't as many travelling due to holidays, etc.

Just you wait till September hits...

vektarman

markf909 wrote: »

Also, get in touch with your local FF TD (Aine Brady? ).
Ring all of your local FF councilors. They can at least get the ear of the Minister.

That's the second time you've mentioned getting in touch with FF politicians on this thread, wouldn't it be better to get in touch with politcians whose party didn't get us into this mess in the first place....

J-B

http://www.labour.ie/emmetstagg/news/121425798769019.html

Presumably the more correspondence the Dept gets in relation to this issue the more helpful it would be to the grant of the additional licence?

serfboard

markf909 wrote: »

However, the bad news is that it is more likely to be months rather than weeks before the DoT do anything. Public transport is not something they care about as the top brass all have free car parking spaces so buses are an alien concept to them.

Absolutely. No-one in the DOT from the Minister down should be able to take their car into work. They will then see first-hand what kind of public transport we have in Dublin/the rest of the country. Can you imagine how quickly and how many problems would be resolved if this were the case?

Of course I know there are the usual two chances of this happening. :rolleyes:

markf909

vektarman wrote: »

That's the second time you've mentioned getting in touch with FF politicians on this thread, wouldn't it be better to get in touch with politcians whose party didn't get us into this mess in the first place....

That would seem logical, however, the opposition politicians are in not in a position to go directly to the Minster.

By all means you'll get a more sympathetic ear from others local TD's but their power is even more limited than your local FF TD.

I know it seems bizarre but thats my experience of things.

The pressure has to be applied directly to the politicians in power.

Davidth88

Below may be of interest , to set the record straight I have no connection to ANY political party.



1st July, 2008.

STAGG PRESSES MINISTER TO ALLOW DUBLIN BUS TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL BUS SERVICES IN CELBRIDGE

Last Thursday June 26th in the Dail Deputy Emmet Stagg raised An Adjournment Debate in relation to the serious difficulties for Public Transport Users arising from the closure of the Circle Line Bus Company that had a licence to operate 37 daily bus services between Celbridge and Dublin and given that the services would cease operation from Friday 27th June, Deputy Stagg requested the Minister to authorise Dublin Bus to operate the routes now left without a service forthwith to enable commuters to continue using public transport.

Minister of State John Maloney T.D., responding on behalf of the Minister for Transport stated that the loss of employment and the loss of the bus services was regrettable but did state that ‘Any application for the introduction of new services to and from Celbridge will be urgently considered by the Department of Transport’.

On foot of the Minister's response Deputy Stagg contacted Dublin Bus and requested them to submit a Licence Application to provide additional services in Celbridge to cover former Morton`s Customers who would be vying for places on existing Dublin Bus Services. A licence application was submitted yesterday Monday 30th June for additional services and having been in contact with the Department of Transport this is now being urgently considered stated Deputy Stagg. The Department stated Deputy Stagg are being cautious over the sanctioning of the licence to Dublin Bus over doubt's about the status of Morton`s existing licence.

However, Deputy Stagg has called on the Minister to act now and issue a licence for the additional services to Dublin Bus. At present large numbers of commuters are being forced to stand on buses all the way into Dublin because of the gap in services. This cannot be allowed to continue.

vektarman

markf909 wrote: »

That would seem logical, however, the opposition politicians are in not in a position to go directly to the Minster.

By all means you'll get a more sympathetic ear from others local TD's but their power is even more limited than your local FF TD.

I know it seems bizarre but thats my experience of things.

The pressure has to be applied directly to the politicians in power.

Fair point.

AlekSmart

Quote davidth88... "The Department stated Deputy Stagg are being cautious over the sanctioning of the licence to Dublin Bus over doubt's about the status of Morton`s existing licence."

WHOA there....aye up lad...what`s this all about ?

Whilst it`s not exactly surprising that the Department yet again gets involved in doubting it`s own sanity,it is somewhat revealing that it is now doubting the status of it`s own script.

If we now have a situation whereby The Department of Transport has been unable to monitor it`s own licences then it must be coming near time for a high profile resignation if not a dismissal......

Fair play to Deputy Stagg for at least making an effort,but this should really be unnecessary if the relevant Minister and his department were even remotely competent.

In fact,just to intrude upon Paul Morton`s patch yet again,perhaps there are grounds now for taking the Department of Transport to the EU courts for its lacklustre if not reckless management of the entire Lucan Corridor/Circle Line Collapse

Davidth88

Quote davidth88... "The Department stated Deputy Stagg are being cautious over the sanctioning of the licence to Dublin Bus over doubt's about the status of Morton`s existing licence."

WHOA there....aye up lad...what`s this all about ?

Mortons may have stopped the service , however they have NOT relinquished the licence. This may be causing some issues , hense the sentence above.


FYI

I wrote to all the local politicians yesterday. The only reaction I recvd so far was from Deputy Stagg and also Kevin Byrne .

J-B

I have also had a good response from Deputy Stagg. In relation to the existence or otherwise of the Mortons licence, while the Department may be cautious about this issue, I'm hoping that if enough pressure is exerted, something will be done about this situation. At the end of the day, the level and quality of public transport provided to Celbridge is inadequate and unacceptable so we need to keep the pressure on!

angrycommuter80

If it werent for Deputy Stagg and Cllr Kevin Byrne no local representatie would even act on this issue. Transport is one of the most important issues to many people living in Celbridge and a good transport link is vital for local people paticularly the express services and link to Ballsbridge. Morning and Evening commutes are becoming increasingly difficult. We must all live in hope that the dept of transport will grant the licence and that Mr. Morton who has alreadty disrupted enough peoples daily commute will relinquish his hold on the licence.

Beruthiel

I received this from Aine Brady this morning.

Dublin Bus applies to Department for additional peak services for Celbridge


Deputy Aine Brady has been informed by Dublin Bus that an application they have applied to the Department of Transport for additional peak service for Celbridge to cater for the demands that have arose following Circleline's decision to withdraw from the service.

'Dublin Bus have applied to the Department of Transport on Monday 30th June for additional peak departures from Celbridge and Lucan to cater for demands which arose as a result of the licensed operator withdrawing.' stated Deputy Brady who has made representations to Dublin Bus to increase their services to Celbridge.

'Dublin Bus have assured me that they are making every effort to progress the matter as fast as possible.'

'I will continue to work to ensure that we get a better long-term solution so that we can have a sustainable Public Transport Bus Service for Celbridge and surrounding areas.' concluded Deputy Brady.


Ends - Aine Brady TD

markf909

'Dublin Bus have assured me that they are making every effort to progress the matter as fast as possible.'

If only it were that simple.
I sincerely hope that the anonymous ones in the DoT are working on this.

angrycommuter80

I was speaking with Cllr Kevin Byrne this morning who advised me a meeting has been set up for next Wedensday July 16th with Dublin Bus rep Joe Stobie, the Director of transport in Kildare county council and all local county cllrs. This meeting should bring some progress on this issue lets hope! At least we have someone working in our favour

HydeRoad

angrycommuter80 wrote: »

We must all live in hope that the dept of transport will grant the licence and that Mr. Morton who has alreadty disrupted enough peoples daily commute will relinquish his hold on the licence.

If Dublin Bus instate express bus services between St. Raphael's, Oldtown Mill, Celbridge and Ballsbridge, they will be putting in place the service that those residents pleaded for for years, and which Mortons provided. If they instate anything less than that, then they are resorting to what they did before, which is ignoring the wishes of a large part of the travelling public.

Paul Morton may have disrupted the commute of people who do not wish private operators to run bus services, but Dublin Bus for years disrupted the people of Celbridge by not offering the services the people wanted and asked for, and disrupted them further by expending unreasonable effort in trying to put the competitor out of business.

Dublin Bus are in the business of providing public transport. If they provided the quality of service people wanted, there would be no need and no market for private operators. Private operators simply fill the gaps Dublin Bus do not, and it is shameful that Dublin Bus come along afterwards and complain about that. Why wouldn't Dublin Bus sit down with Circle Line, and come to a shared operating agreement? Circle Line would have been delighted with that, and it would have taken pressure off Dublin Bus. No, Circle Line had to be annihilated.

There was nothing stopping Dublin Bus sending more buses to Leixlip and Maynooth. Those areas were not on the Circle Line route. They could have got the licence just as easily as Mortons got a licence to operate through to Ballsbridge. Just another case of the eldest child wanting all the cream for himself, and if he can't have it all, then nobody is to have any. And when he gets it, he wastes half of it.

KC61

HydeRoad wrote: »

If Dublin Bus instate express bus services between St. Raphael's, Oldtown Mill, Celbridge and Ballsbridge, they will be putting in place the service that those residents pleaded for for years, and which Mortons provided. If they instate anything less than that, then they are resorting to what they did before, which is ignoring the wishes of a large part of the travelling public.

Paul Morton may have disrupted the commute of people who do not wish private operators to run bus services, but Dublin Bus for years disrupted the people of Celbridge by not offering the services the people wanted and asked for, and disrupted them further by expending unreasonable effort in trying to put the competitor out of business.

Dublin Bus are in the business of providing public transport. If they provided the quality of service people wanted, there would be no need and no market for private operators. Private operators simply fill the gaps Dublin Bus do not, and it is shameful that Dublin Bus come along afterwards and complain about that. Why wouldn't Dublin Bus sit down with Circle Line, and come to a shared operating agreement? Circle Line would have been delighted with that, and it would have taken pressure off Dublin Bus. No, Circle Line had to be annihilated.

There was nothing stopping Dublin Bus sending more buses to Leixlip and Maynooth. Those areas were not on the Circle Line route. They could have got the licence just as easily as Mortons got a licence to operate through to Ballsbridge. Just another case of the eldest child wanting all the cream for himself, and if he can't have it all, then nobody is to have any. And when he gets it, he wastes half of it.

Would that it were that simple. DB did apply for increased services in Leixlip and Maynooth and were told by the Department "no". They wanted to use the tri-axle buses on those routes, and were told "no".

The Department is applying a really narrow view to any licence application, which is such that ANY DB service that intersects with a private operation anywhere along the route is unlikely to be granted a service improvement.

While no one excuses DB behaviour in the 1980s (in not serving the new areas of Celbridge) or in the 1990s in disrupting Morton's operations from day one, it would be fair to say that after time passed the two services did (to a degree) co-habitate to a point (except for some bad apples rocking the boat).

The events since May 2007 when Circle Line launched their all day service really demonstrate how ridiculous the whole situation is. I blame everyone for this mess - DB (for not serving the areas in the first place), the Department and Government for not dealing with the licensing reform or transport integration, and Circle Line for not promoting the service effectively from the start.

I do wonder if Circle Line had awaited the reform of the transport legislation before launching the all day service, would we be in this mess? (And I'm not having a go at them - just raising the question). I rather suspect we would not. They had an excellent niche service that (in my view) is (under the current legislation) the area where private operators can excel (and they did), but the current setup does not favour in any way off-peak competition.

Constantly blaming one operator-vs-another is not going to solve the problem. However, lobbying government and the Department is frankly the best option. There are a whole myriad of issues here, but raking over old dirt repeatedly is not going to be a solution. What is needed is positive thinking and some firm actions. Ultimately action from Government with regard to revising the relevant legislation is going to be the only solution and until that happens we are going to be stuck with a situation where people have to go to local politicians to get a bus service, when transport professionals without any loyalty to any operator should be the ones designing the network!!!!

John R

HydeRoad wrote: »

If Dublin Bus instate express bus services between St. Raphael's, Oldtown Mill, Celbridge and Ballsbridge, they will be putting in place the service that those residents pleaded for for years, and which Mortons provided. If they instate anything less than that, then they are resorting to what they did before, which is ignoring the wishes of a large part of the travelling public.

Paul Morton may have disrupted the commute of people who do not wish private operators to run bus services, but Dublin Bus for years disrupted the people of Celbridge by not offering the services the people wanted and asked for, and disrupted them further by expending unreasonable effort in trying to put the competitor out of business.

Even if that is what did happen (which I do not believe is correct) then what is the problem? That is what business is about; expanding your own business and being more successfull than your competitors.


The simple truth is that Mortons started a service on a corridor that DB was already running services on with only small areas of unique routeing. They then complained bitterly when DB increased their services despite the areas experiencing massive population growth over the period. Everything DB did to improve their services was put down to a dastardly plan to destroy Mortons/Circle Line rather than them just doing what they have been doing all across their network; increasing capacity to cope with increased demand in what was a growing economy.

HydeRoad wrote: »

Dublin Bus are in the business of providing public transport. If they provided the quality of service people wanted, there would be no need and no market for private operators. Private operators simply fill the gaps Dublin Bus do not, and it is shameful that Dublin Bus come along afterwards and complain about that.

Since the early 90's DB have been held back by the very licencing system Mortons/Circle Line used to curtail their N4 corridor improvements and in many cases have found it impossible to get approval to expand into areas they currently do not serve. The North Clondalkin/Adamstown corridor for example, remind us again what operator was this service denied because of?


Why wouldn't Dublin Bus sit down with Circle Line, and come to a shared operating agreement? Circle Line would have been delighted with that, and it would have taken pressure off Dublin Bus. No, Circle Line had to be annihilated.[/QUOTE]

So you are saying that Paul Morton who has made no secret of his long held animosity towards CIE/DB made serious efforts to operate in partnership with them? Do tell because I'm sure this is news to us all.

HydeRoad wrote: »

There was nothing stopping Dublin Bus sending more buses to Leixlip and Maynooth. Those areas were not on the Circle Line route.

Remind us again which part of the N4 corridor Circle Line did their surveys of that proved DB were running a bus every 2 minutes or whatever that was used in their complaint to the DOT about DB running extra buses?

HydeRoad wrote: »

They could have got the licence just as easily as Mortons got a licence to operate through to Ballsbridge.

Just like how they easily got a licence for the 141 Swords-Santry-Drumcondra-City service?

Oh no, wait. Because of a private operator running a service that is similar in start and finish locations only they have been completely shot down on the 141.



The simple truth is that whatever about any outside influences Circle Line sunk themselves, they failed to publicise their increased services, failed to provide roadside or internet timetables, chopped and changed their services at short notice and then seemed perplexed as to why nobody was using them.

You have mentioned how great they were towards their customers, I wonder would the same feelings be shared by anybody eho had been waiting for an off-peak or late night bus when none turned up due to Circle Line cancelling these services without any notice?


I have no doubt that had DB said "Oh Paul Morton is now running to Celbridge and Lucan now so we should just quietly go away" that CL would have been a success but just because they kept running the routes they ALREADY HAD before Mortons/CL turned up is hardly justification for them to be blamed for the demise of CL. Frankly if that sort of relatively mild competition was too much for CL to handle I'd hate to see what they would have done in the face of a deregulated market with the likes of Stagecoach and their well-rehearsed methods of killing off small operators.


One more thing, perhaps it is now time for you HydeRoad to inform the board of your connection to this topic, If you are the person I (very strongly) suspect you are it is only fair that your posts are put into the context of your own bias, an impartial observer you are not.

HydeRoad

I am very far from being an impartial observer. I am a former employee of Dublin Bus, of Mortons, of Circle Line, of Aircoach, and of other private bus operators. I live, sleep and eat buses. I am presently a taxi driver, because of all those bus operators, I found none that I could work for on an ongoing basis. For their various reasons, they all have their problems. I am not a spokesperson for any of them. I will defend the CUSTOMER in all these debates. The nearest I ever got to operating a customer friendly service was with Circle Line. Paul Morton is a rare example of a born and dedicated busman. He loves buses, and he was very proud of the customer orientated service he instigated, and that is why I grew to respect him so much.

The only operator in Dublin with the infrastructure and the ability to provide a comprehensive citywide customer orientated bus service is Dublin Bus. And on various levels, they do very well. Unfortunately, the overall package is far from ideal, between government interference, an antiquated licensing system, Dublin City Council, the unions, and a very apparent arrogance in Dublin Bus itself.

The private sector cannot and surely will not provide anything like the same level of infrastructure that a state funded organisation can. The best that can be hoped for is a regulated system whereby individual routes are tendered, and Dublin Bus should be subject to an independent regulator as much as a private operator. Yet when it comes to things like driver training, investing in technology, environmental awareness, the state funded operator has a huge advantage, and Dublin Bus are at the forefront of that in many ways on a European scale.

So why does it not seem to percolate down to the customer? We read everywhere the stories of people waiting for buses, rude and aggressive staff, leaving early, bunching, poling, a rotten ticketing system and fare structure, rampant vandalism, lack of information, etc. Many of these are internal Dublin Bus issues, many are external influences, and many are problems that just as much face private operators. The thing is, Dublin Bus are not very vocal about a lot of issues that concern the customer on the ground, beyond glib PR spin about customer charters, etc. Yet Dublin Bus seem to find their voice when somebody else tries to do something different. Why is that?

The basis of what Circle Line wanted to do was very good. Of course there were some very fundamental flaws too. Eventually, the flaws would have been dealt with, and most of the problems ironed out. Circle Line were just as hamstrung by the Department as Dublin Bus were. But while Dublin Bus had time and state money, Circle Line did not. It is a terrible shame that an operator like Paul Morton, who had a vision for an alternative bus service, could not continue. We know what Dublin Bus provide, the same service they have always provided, which is like the curate's egg, good in parts. We will never know what Paul Morton might have provided. He never had a chance.

The Circle Line service was very popular with the customers in Celbridge. Years of reliability and good customer service were ruined in the last year, probably because Paul tried to do too much too soon. But he was in a corner. Dublin Bus were so aggressive in fighting him through every avenue - the Department, the integrated ticketing, the bus stops - everything was a fight, that decisions often had to be taken in haste rather than given the time they deserved. Pulling services at short notice wasn't done out of bloody mindedness. Things like that were desperate last minute measures to try to keep the business afloat.

Paul Morton was very well respected in the industry, by everyone he met, except Dublin Bus, who physically blanked him at every meeting they shared. It was embarrassing to behold. There were a whole range of issues they should have debated with him. They had their views, he had his, on integrated ticketing, social welfare travel, bus stops, everything. They didn't want debate. They tried to pretend he didn't exist. I am very bitter, that the state operator, who didn't seem to care less whether customers had the quality of service they desired, could turn out to be so aggressive against somebody else who had a vision of the customer and a different way of doing things.

If you feel throwing tomatoes at me personally somehow lessens my argument, that's a shame. I have no vested interest in anyone only the customer service or lack of. I would like to see Dublin Bus consider the customer first and foremost in all their dealings, and I do not see that. I will champion the efforts of anyone who tries to do things differently, and while I might be ambivalent about a state operator who either cannot or will not improve their customer service, I cannot stand silently by while they attack somebody else who tries to give the customer a voice. The day Dublin Bus really champion the customer on the ground, I will commend them. They have an opportunity now, with the people of Celbridge.

MiniD

It's all very well saying the owner of Mortons is passionate about buses and a dedicated businessman, but I find it crazy that a businessman would let a bus service operate for years without any proper timetables and bus stops for customers. Surely displaying the times of your service would be the first thing any bus operator should do. I know Dublin Bus can have their moments with customer information, but compared to Circle Line they were a shining light.

Circle Line had 3 routes. Putting timetables on bus stops would not have been the hardest of tasks. The bus stop heads were too high, it was hard to read what bus company served the stops and timetables were non existent.

It's similar with Aircoach, who invested in shiny new Bus Stops a few months back but have since left them standing bare of information. No timetable, no routing, no information at all.

The thing which puzzles me is that right up until the week when Circle Line stopped, their buses were full of passengers, so they weren't loosing revenue to Dublin Bus. So what changed that caused them to go bust? Dublin Bus hasn't done anything in the last few years on the Lucan corridor because they have been blocked by the DOT. So what caused Circle Line to close?

KC61

MiniD wrote: »

It's all very well saying the owner of Mortons is passionate about buses and a dedicated businessman, but I find it crazy that a businessman would let a bus service operate for years without any proper timetables and bus stops for customers. Surely displaying the times of your service would be the first thing any bus operator should do. I know Dublin Bus can have their moments with customer information, but compared to Circle Line they were a shining light.

Circle Line had 3 routes. Putting timetables on bus stops would not have been the hardest of tasks. The bus stop heads were too high, it was hard to read what bus company served the stops and timetables were non existent.

It's similar with Aircoach, who invested in shiny new Bus Stops a few months back but have since left them standing bare of information. No timetable, no routing, no information at all.

The thing which puzzles me is that right up until the week when Circle Line stopped, their buses were full of passengers, so they weren't loosing revenue to Dublin Bus. So what changed that caused them to go bust? Dublin Bus hasn't done anything in the last few years on the Lucan corridor because they have been blocked by the DOT. So what caused Circle Line to close?

Circle Line's buses at peak hour were full.....this didn't quite translate to the rest of the buses that they operated all day since May of last year (albeit at a decreasing frequency as time progressed), and certainly didn't apply at any time of the day between Ballsbridge and Nutgrove.

Davidth88

There are a number of points here.

I am sure Paul Morton is a fine business man , and a good ' bus ' man.

Let me give you a Celbridge Resident's view.

It was total rubbish that DB were ' flooding ' the route to Celbridge ( just take a look at the timetable if you don't believe me , one bus every 25 mins or so ). For Paul Morton to state this as a reason certainly turned me against him to some extent.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?route=67a

Indeed we were constantly told by DB that they could not increase the bus service to Celbridge because there was a competing service and they were not allowed to because of this. ( is this true or some ' spin ' ? )

The CL bus route was very badly advertised, as stated here the timetable was like a ' state secret ' . The bus stops were not obvious and looked unused, if I was a casual passerby I would not have thought these were live.

( Rather like the train connector bus service run by someone else which is a real mystery to most people in Celbridge )

A good proportion of Celbridge now has no bus service at all , if you live in Old Town Mill or up the Clane side of town.

Most people find it extremely frustrating that we have to go through Lucan/Chapelizod all the time. I have had instances where I have been on a 67 that was totally jammed solid and people were being turned away, the when you got to Lucan half the people got off the bus. How many of the people that were turned away were going to Celbridge. You can't blame the people living in Lucan they just get on the first bus they can.

MiniD

KC61 wrote: »

Circle Line's buses at peak hour were full.....this didn't quite translate to the rest of the buses that they operated all day since May of last year (albeit at a decreasing frequency as time progressed), and certainly didn't apply at any time of the day between Ballsbridge and Nutgrove.

The all day service hasn't been running for some months now, but their peak services were still packed up until the last day. To add to my earlier post, when the all day service was launched, there were no timetables provided to passengers. If memory serves me right, they then pulled a lot of their evening buses without any notice to passengers before cancelling the service completely.

I wouldn't wait at a bus stop for a service I wasn't familiar with where there was no timetable. It's not surprising their all day service flopped.

HydeRoad

Some posters here seem to be suggesting that the lack of timetables and the pulling of services are a reason why Circle Line should not have been given a licence to run. Maybe I am reading too much into that.

Nobody goes into business with the intention of hiding their product from the customer, or taking it off the shelf when people look for it.

Temporary timetables were handed out on board the buses. The plan was always to circulate the areas served with timetables, and advertise. Unfortunately, because of the pressure put on the company from the very beginning, the full licensed service was never able to be operated. Published timetables were never allowed. Timetables for bus stops had all been prepared, and a printer ready to go. A website was developed up to a point, but had to be abandoned, because it would only be online for a few days, before the Dept. of Transport would be on the telephone requesting it's removal. The same with any published or advertised timetable.

Circle Line needed to run the full service in order to be allowed advertise, but was unable to run the full service from day one. There was limited funding available, but there would have been enough to get the business up and running if there had not been such forceful opposition to it.

Of course there are many things that might have been done differently, but it seems that whatever decisions the company took, it was going to run into trouble and opposition. A small company edging it's way into a large competitor's market might expect that. But when that competitor is state funded, it creates an impossibly unfair playing field, which was Paul Morton's point.

Dublin Bus seemed not to be in a position for years to put in the level of bus service that Celbridge required. Whether they could not, or would not, I do not know. Perhaps they could not for many of the same reasons Circle Line eventually could not.

The fact is this, and it's not a biased stance, it's a simple observation - The service initially was inadequate. There was an opportunity for someone else to fill the gap. Paul Morton was INVITED many years ago to fill it. He filled it, and built up the service as long as the demand was there.

When Dublin Bus, for whatever reason, discovered they wanted to put all the extra buses into Celbridge, it seems they expected Paul Morton to just disappear into thin air. Paul Morton made a massive investment in the Celbridge bus service, and you can be sure he took quite a hit when it closed. You cannot give someone the opportunity to invest in something, and then pull their business out from under them when it doesn't suit any more.

There are plenty of arguments about the propriety of private enterprise being given unregulated access to the bus industry, and I accept most of them. That is where the Department of Transport would ideally step in with an independent regulator, in co-operation with an overall transport policy for Dublin, to whom the state and private operators would all answer to.

This didn't happen. Instead, a private operator was left flailing, trying to keep his business on track against all the odds, in the wake of a massive state funded competitor, who naturally enough in a purely business sense, tried to put him out of business. Both operators were hamstrung by an inadequate transport administration, resulting in animosity, and no possible hope of co-operation, with the real losers at the end being the ever suffering travelling public.

Personally I was bitter, because I saw all the effort that went into trying to improve the bus service into Celbridge. Some of the initiatives were regular clockface timetables (i.e. on the half hour all day), and a much simplified fare structure with just two fare bands, a standard fare and a 'short' fare, which initially were intended to be rounded coins, until it became obvious the business was slipping. The service was much faster, avoiding as it did Chapelizod, and with a limited stop arrangement on the main drag of the route. That is the main reason it was such a popular service. The day the Chapelizod bypass opened, long bus routes like the 66 and 67 should have been rerouted that way. It is simple commonsense.

There was to be full integration with everything. Integration with LUAS was accomplished on an interim basis through the RPA, but Dublin Bus objected very noisily to Circle Line being allowed to integrate with anyone, on the basis that it gave recognition to someone they felt should not be recognised. What had anyone to gain by taking that stance? The customer lost out. Circle Line lost out. And Dublin Bus gained nothing by it. It was a purely vindictive stance, of no benefit to anyone.

The bus stops were a sore point. They looked awful. Each bus stop sign cost in the region of €300, including poles, plates, and a guy to dig a hole and plant them. That was no idle investment. But after initially putting Mortons bus stop signs on them, with a space left below for timetables, the fuss over the inability to put in the whole licence including weekend services from day one meant timetables were never allowed. As for carousels at eye level, it would have been great to have them at some point in the future. Everything would have been put in on a step by step basis. But it all depended on the company getting on it's feet.

In an ideal business sense, services would have been introduced on a step by step basis, building the business up slowly. But there was great pressure on Paul to initiate the whole licence all at once, which was a huge leap from the small bus service it was before. The fear was there, that if less of a licence was applied for, nothing more would be granted, and anything less than a half hour frequency would not have sold well to the travelling public.

Like I say, I am sure many decisions were taken in error, and many things were done that on reflection might have been thought out differently. But the pressure that was brought to bear on the fledgling company was enormous, and grossly unfair. The sheer animosity of a small number of posts on these threads gives an idea of the kind of animosity and objection the company faced daily.

I apologise for hogging the Boards on this topic. I apologise if I seem to be championing one side of the argument too much. I hope not to post again on the topic. I only hate to see Paul Morton villified, because whatever your views on private versus state operation, I am aware of all the arguments from every side, and I only look for the consensus in the middle that would see the customer as the focal point of it all, and Circle Line, if nothing else, might have been the impetus for improved services to the Celbridge area, and if successful, a model for other districts, whoever eventually was charged with their operation.

MiniD

HydeRoad wrote: »

Timetables for bus stops had all been prepared, and a printer ready to go. A website was developed up to a point, but had to be abandoned, because it would only be online for a few days, before the Dept. of Transport would be on the telephone requesting it's removal. The same with any published or advertised timetable.

Are you saying Circle Line were not allowed place timetables on their bus stops because of the Department Of Transport?

If I remember correctly, the very top plate on the timetable had the times of the peak departures, but these wore away as the years went on and were never replaced. How were you allowed advertise these times, but not update them?

There was to be full integration with everything. Integration with LUAS was accomplished on an interim basis through the RPA, but Dublin Bus objected very noisily to Circle Line being allowed to integrate with anyone, on the basis that it gave recognition to someone they felt should not be recognised. What had anyone to gain by taking that stance? The customer lost out. Circle Line lost out. And Dublin Bus gained nothing by it. It was a purely vindictive stance, of no benefit to anyone.

When you say Dublin Bus made 'noise', what exactly did they do? Didn't the Circle Line/Luas smart card system go ahead?

Carawaystick

i can't for a second believe a company could not publish their timetable n the internet if they wanted.
it could be done at a remove - spouses/childs/boards.ie website if the principle co. could not through some arcane legal crap

Davidth88

Hi,

I only hate to see Paul Morton villified, because whatever your views on private versus state operation,

I certainly wouldn't villify him, however it was very disingenious of him to say ' the route was flooded by DB ' in 5 years I saw little or no improvment in the 67 route.

I am staggered that say that any attempt by Mortons to publisise the route would be blocked by DoT, thats incredible ! If he stated the reasons you state below I would have had a lot more sympathy with him.

Anyway , between the ' jigs and the reels ' Celbridge has been left high and dry, with a rubbish bus service servicing a large town.

I agree totally with your comment about the Chapelizod bypass , anyone who has sat looking at the West County Hotel for 20 mins while you sit in traffic will agree with you there .

KC61

Hyde Road, correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that Circle Line submitted a licence application for an enhanced service on the Celbridge route, including all day services and weekends, and for whatever reason were unable to operate it from the very beginning?

Surely then, either:
1) A revised licence application should have been submitted that could have been operated;
or
2) The services should not have been launched until the company were in a position to operate according to the terms of the licence

If I'm reading your post correctly, the Department were basically saying that your advertised timetables should comply with the licence issued, something all other operators have to comply with?

Surely when it was felt that the licensed services could not be operated, revised applications should have been made for a realistic service level? Maybe they were, I'm fully aware of the length of time that the Department takes on these things, which is completely unrealistic for commercial enterprises, but an operator has to play by the rules, especially when they complain about other operators not doing so.

But from what I'm reading of your post, Circle Line (for whatever reason) did not comply with the service level as specified in their licence and the Department was enforcing the rules by not letting them advertise a lower level of service.

I may be doing Circle Line an injustice, but that appears to be what you are saying in your post?

(I am trying to keep away from any alleged issues with Dublin Bus when I'm making this post. Just trying to understand the issues a bit better).

HydeRoad

Last post on this, promise! The argument will just go round and round like a bus going nowhere! The licence applied for was a half hourly frequency on each route, all day, seven days a week. That was the service that should have been put in place, and that Circle Line wanted to put in place. By the time launch day came, the company was already realizing just how much damage was being inflicted. Circle Line was committed at that stage, and even to reapply for a licence for a much reduced service, would have ruined the whole ethos of what had been planned, and would probably not have forestalled the eventual outcome. I cannot go into it further without getting back into all the petty stuff. There's no point. So I'm off over to the Animals & Pets forum, where I don't have to read about buses...

AlekSmart

At day`s end it appears to point to a business plan which was not fully thought-out.

It sounds as if Paul Morton may,in his desire to succeed in the face of his perceived Dublin Bus persecutors have failed to give due consideration to ALL aspects of his application.

However the situation CURRENTLY existing is TOTALLY centred upon the inability of a Minister and his Senior Officials to recognize a very real emergency and to sanction an immediate response to allieviate commuters hardship.

The ongoing refusal of the Minister and Department is what is focusing peoples minds now.

The political and commercial ramifications of the Circle Line collapse should not be used as an excuse for Departmental Inaction.

Some persistent comments within the industry point to Circle Lines principles being less than unhappy with how things are developing which,if true,points to some form of contrived situation engineered to achieve a commercial goal..???

J-B

I think all the points raised by various contributors are interesting and useful in that they provide a background to what is currently going on.

But isn't there a danger that if everyone becomes caught up in the merits of the Mortons v Dublin Bus debate that we will lose sight of the current situation which is that we have a woefully inadequate system?

The 120/123 buses are not accessible to commuters in Celbridge in the morning as they are already full by the time they get there. Therefore this means that the only "express" type bus you can get is a 67X, of which there is the grand total of 4 in the morning to serve a population of 17,000 - 20,000 (not sure of exact figures!) As other posters have pointed out, getting the 67 is more like taking a scenic tour around west Dublin due to its bizarre route.

We all need to make these points very clearly to our public representatives, otherwise we will be left indefinitely in this situation.

MiniD

Hyde Road, can you explain further when you say...

By the time launch day came, the company was already realizing just how much damage was being inflicted.

What damage was inflicted on Circle Line? As someone who is still confused by the claims that Dublin Bus were responsibile for Circle Line's closure, I'm interested find out what "damage" was caused by Dublin Bus?

There was to be full integration with everything. Integration with LUAS was accomplished on an interim basis through the RPA, but Dublin Bus objected very noisily to Circle Line being allowed to integrate with anyone

Again, to pick up on an earlier post you made, what did Dublin Bus do to object to Circle Line having a Smart Card system? Didn't the Smart Card system go ahead with Circle Line and Luas?

Can you also elaborate on your claim that it was The Department Of Transport which prevented Circle Line publishnig timetables on the web and putting bus times on bus stops along the route?

I'd like to point out that I'm not pro-Dublin Bus or private operator, just someone with an interest in Dublin transport. You've made a lot of claims in your posts without explaining them in any great detail.

KC61

J-B wrote: »

I think all the points raised by various contributors are interesting and useful in that they provide a background to what is currently going on.

But isn't there a danger that if everyone becomes caught up in the merits of the Mortons v Dublin Bus debate that we will lose sight of the current situation which is that we have a woefully inadequate system?

The 120/123 buses are not accessible to commuters in Celbridge in the morning as they are already full by the time they get there. Therefore this means that the only "express" type bus you can get is a 67X, of which there is the grand total of 4 in the morning to serve a population of 17,000 - 20,000 (not sure of exact figures!) As other posters have pointed out, getting the 67 is more like taking a scenic tour around west Dublin due to its bizarre route.

We all need to make these points very clearly to our public representatives, otherwise we will be left indefinitely in this situation.

Well it is important to understand what went wrong, insofar as the same mistakes do not get repeated.

The system is the real problem here. And I think the manner in which the Department reviews licence applications for new services or enhancements to existing services is the nub of the issue.

It's all very well saying that 217 buses service the general area. That is not the point. It is the numbers of buses serving specific areas that is the issue. They all have to travel along the Lucan QBC, but each area needs a decent service. Hopefully some sense will prevail and some semblance of an adequate service will be developed for Lucan South, Leixlip, Maynooth, and Celbridge, through a combination of direct services and more buses on the existing routes.

In fairness to DB, they have developed new direct routes along several QBC's that do not deviate off the main road in the last couple of years such as the 145 (Stillorgan/Bray), 151 (South Clondalkin), 128 (Malahide Road), 4/4A (Ballymun and Blackrock), 140 (Finglas Road).

What is needed are new services along the Lucan QBC from Maynooth/Leixlip and Celbridge that, once they reach the N4, route directly along it without visiting Lucan Village or Chapelizod, before continuing through the city centre to perhaps UCD via Ballsbridge.

They have been unable to do this before now because Circle Line were already in place, but perhaps something will be delivered in the coming months.

What I would expect to happen is that in the first instance DB have applied to operate some extra services on existing services. The development of new routes will require additional buses, of which there are limited numbers in the fleet. This will take longer to deliver for that reason.

The lobbying of politicians needs to be on the specific issue of buses for particular areas and not the wider QBC, and also the issue of additional buses needs to be addressed in order to meet the demands of the ever increasing customer base in this area.

J-B

I received a response from the Minister yesterday saying that they are committed to reforming the legislation in this area etc.

There was no mention whatsoever of the additional licences that Dublin Bus have apparently applied for and in fact the letter stated that my original letter (which amongst other things raised all the points previously made by everyone regarding the inadequacy of the 67 service and route) was being passed to Dublin Bus for them to deal with. I am going to wait to see what happens arising from the meeting tomorrow and then respond.

Obviously any legislative change in this area is to be welcomed but we also need concrete action in terms of increased services as soon as possible.

J-B

Just to let everyone know, I got an update on the meeting on Weds. Apparently Dublin Bus have submitted an application for a licence to run an extra 3 67X buses in the morning and in the evening. This is currently with the Department (interesting given that the Minister's response to me made no reference to this!) Kildare County Council are writing to the Minister to ask him to address this issue.

The need for other areas in Celbridge to be covered by Dublin Bus was also discussed but it was not clear in the response received as to whether a licence application had actually been made for this service.

So I'm planning to write to Dublin Bus to get them to clarify exactly what they have applied for and to ask them, if they have not done already, to apply for a licence to run an additional route along the route covered previously by the Circle Line. I'm also planning to write back to the Minister to request details on the status of the licence applications. Anyone want to join me?

AlekSmart

Before J-B or any other posters get too excited about actually recieving responses from Minister Dempsey and a duplicate response from a Senior Departmental Official there are some rather worrying developments afoot.

There is presently ongoing some form of Departmental Audit (OOps sorry ANOTHER Departmental Audit) of Bus Atha Cliath operations.

However it appears that this particular one is centred upon areas where IMMEDIATE cost savings can be made to satisfy the current Civil Service Guidance Memo regarding these things.

Word in the Hood is that "savings" of a true 3% are being required as of yesterday :cool:

I suspect also that the Departmental Auditing officials belong to a totally seperate and independent section of the Department,quite possibly headquartered in Knock or someplace and as such will know absolutely naught about happenings or concerns in West Dublin.....("Not my area of responsibility...sorry" ).

As mentioned elsewhere,I would recommend a flurry of letterwriting and e-mails to ALL the usual suspects as mark my words Public Transport USERS are not at the top of this Department of Transport`s concerns.....the principle of self-preservation has well and truly kicked in !!!

J-B

Believe me I am not holding out too much hope for any sort of competent or speedy response to all the issues raised but like you am of the view that the more correspondence sent in the better!

AlekSmart

Indeed J-B,but I would say that there is only one issue which the Minister should be focusing upon and that is satisfying the current need for IMMEDIATE public transport needs on the N4 corridor and then as a secondary one providing a framework for attracting more business to the Bus network.

yellowbelly

Paul Morton ran an excellcent bus service but Dublin Bus did not saturate Celbridge with Extra Buses and that did not put him out of business. I use the Bus daily from Celbridge and the service is inadequate for example not only at peak times but there is an hour between buses at nine thirty in the morning the next bus is ten thrity which can be nearing eleven when it reaches Celbridge. I was on the ten thrity on Wednesday 23rd July 2008 and the bus was full in Celbridge the bus passed by two mothers with Children and could not take them on board. There should be a service operating every half an hour throughout the day to the city cente from celbridge. There is no feeder bus running to the train station either. I think that the travelling population of celbridge should get together to form a lobby group i would be only to willing to join. I would be only to willing to gather signatures to lobby to get some sort of decent tranpsort service for the celbridge area. Two 67x are not going to be enough to cater for the travelling population of celbridge the buses are packed at the moment imagine what it is going to like when all the children return to school in september. I am fed up with Dublin Bus Paul Morton and the Dept of Transport and all the blame association that is going on about why cirle line went out of business I think itwould be great if Minister Dempsey read these boards because it is the travelling population who use public transport at the moment who are suffering!!!!! I know one thing for sure it was not extra buses going to the Celbridge that put paul morton out of business i did admire the service he provided but i do object to him stating that Dublin Bus put extra services on the Celbridge route as that did not happen and i feel that paul morton who started his service in celbridge is being very disloyal to his loyal customers in celbridge who supported him for the last few years with these comments......

J-B

Has anyone got any idea of when these 3 new morning services are due to start and what times they go at?

Was on the 7 40 Bus Eireann service today - easily 20 people standing waiting at Setanta House hotel stop, some people had to stand and then when the bus got into Celbridge, the 4 people at the stop there were left behind in the rain. It is unreal that Celbridge residents have been left to try to make this skeleton service work. :mad:

AlekSmart

J-B and any other residents of this "saturated" corridor should be constantly aware that their plight does not figure at all on the to-do list of the Department of Transport.

Putting aside the claims of Circle Line Bus,which can and should be deliberated upon fully in a properly constituted Court of Law,there is presently existing a Public Transport shortfall as a direct consequence of the Circle Line "collapse".

This shortfall,given the nature of the area and the dearth of existing services consequently amounts to an emergency situation.
It is therefore incumbent upon the Minister for Transport to intervene and use his CONSIDERABLE discretionary powers under the 1932 Transport Act to INSTRUCT Bus Atha Cliath to immediately allocate EXTRA resources to address the shortfall.

Once again I stress this direction could and should be given by the Minister acting IN THE IMMEDIATE PUBLIC INTEREST and without prejudice to any Legal Action which may (or may not) arise.

At this moment in time Bus Atha Cliath proposes to withdraw from service some 120 vehicles for which tenders have already been invited.

These vehicles are perfectly servicable and are being withdrawn in order to facilitate the Companys ongoing committment to 100% Low-Floor operation by 2012 and maintain it`s fleet strength at a strictly monitored 1182 vehicles.

The fact that the UK Bus Dealers are offering the vehicles directly on to the UK market for ongoing service up to 2016 with minor certification work attended to appears lost on the Department and its increasingly lacklustre Minister.

I suggest that with immediate effect a number of these vehicles and a complement of staff to operate them should be deployed on the N4 Corridor on a Full-Service basis (0530-2330 7 Day service).

I stress that these resources ARE PRESENTLY available and I suggest that to continue with the withdrawal and disposal policy is most assuredly NOT in the Public Interest and therefore counter to the Ministers oath of office ?

The present stand-off which the Minister and His Senior Advisors appear quite happy with has nothing whatsover to do with meeting the needs of the West Dublin/Kildare citizens who are trying to avail of Public Transport as advised by one side of the Ministers mouth while the other side tells them to go to Hell.

Circle Line Bus,Swords Express and a retinue of others have very publicly decided to talk legal challenges so it should be incumbent on them to do just that and in the interim refrain from any further inflamatory statements or gestures.

The continued hue and cry from these Private Operators is merely allowing the Department of Transport and it`s Minister to sit on their hands and get paid for doing NOTHING. :eek: