new medicine entry route quidelines

maggie18x

did anyone read the new quidelines for entering into undergrad medicine 2009 with the new system?it says that all minimum subject reuirements be got in one leaving cert sitting.so that means if anyone repeated and did one of the requirements in the previous year-like maths or english, does that mean they can on longer get in through that route?:eek:

ZorbaTehZ

maggie18x wrote: »

so that means if anyone repeated and did one of the requirements in the previous year-like maths or english, does that mean they can on longer get in through that route?:eek:

Correct, you must fill all the requirements for subjects and points in the same sitting. You can read the brochure here.

straight_As

Interesting read.

Does this new system mean that all combined scores of over 780 will be automatically sufficient for med school entry? It would seem slightly futile if this was not the case as it would eliminate any 480 LCE points applicants, would it not, and consequently render the system obsolete?

Or will the application of places continue as is at present, therefore eliminating the point of the new system and simply making 860 combined the new 600?

I'm not saying that I'm for or against this system, it just appears to be rather pointless to allot a points threshold when the CAO offers places simply through a points-demand mechanism.

Would it not just be better to say the top x number of combined scores will be offered positions on each course?

poppy08

Oh crap! u serious!**** can u really do english in 1 year!?!? wahat are the other requirements apart from science subjects!?!?

ZorbaTehZ

straight_As wrote: »

Or will the application of places continue as is at present, therefore eliminating the point of the new system and simply making 860 combined the new 600.

I used pretty much the same sentence in another thread to describe the new system, and from what I see, that's exactly how it will work out. I wouldn't be impressed at all, but I guess we'll just have to wait an see how it goes.

poppy08 wrote:

Oh crap! u serious!**** can u really do english in 1 year!?!? wahat are the other requirements apart from science subjects!?!?

The requirement regarding english across all med schools here is an ordinary D3. Regardless, I think it's a great idea. No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".
If you click the link above, it gives all the requirements per college, including science.

Carsinian Thau

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

The requirement regarding english across all med schools here is an ordinary D3. Regardless, I think it's a great idea. No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".
If you click the link above, it gives all the requirements per college, including science.

I also think it's a good idea.
Even if some people say it'll be taxing that's no harm. Medschool and working as a doctor are not going to be easy anyway, may as well get used to the hard work before you even enter.

Piste

straight_As wrote: »

Or will the application of places continue as is at present, therefore eliminating the point of the new system and simply making 860 combined the new 600?

I was so delighted when I heard about the new system, but then I figured out it would end up like this, everyone will still be scrambling for the highest points possible, so tbh I don't see anyone getting medicine with fewer than 550 points


Also there's probably be more applicants with the current system.


What I'm hoping though is that people will think they only need 480 points instead of 570/560 and so more people will aim lower so there's less competition out there.

Carsinian Thau

Piste wrote: »

What I'm hoping though is that people will think they only need 480 points instead of 570/560 and so more people will aim lower so there's less competition out there.

Don't you think every other potential student will work that out too?
I doubt your "competition" is as dim as you hope.

peachystarr

I think its going to be a much better system, those that get in will still need to have high points up around 550/560 but it just means that they dont have to have 600, its that last 30/40 points that are the hardest to get so at least these people will have a chance to make up there points with the other test and the idea of 1 LC sitting is excellent cutting out all the repeaters dropping there harder subjects and picking up easy A1's in new subjects.

Piste

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Don't you think every other potential student will work that out too?
I doubt your "competition" is as dim as you hope.

Yeah I'm sure most people will have figured it out...but hopefully there's a few out there who wont have...

kellykl

I think the whole point is that HPAT is more of an aptitude test rather than an academic one. It's supposed to be something you can't study or prepare for. So you may have someone with 600 points who scores really low on the aptitide test and someone with 480 who scores really highly. Or, at least, this is what CAO and the department are thinking. In reality, it probably won't really make much difference. You still won't see many people below 550 getting in.

Carsinian Thau

kellykl wrote: »

I think the whole point is that HPAT is more of an aptitude test rather than an academic one. It's supposed to be something you can't study or prepare for. So you may have someone with 600 points who scores really low on the aptitide test and someone with 480 who scores really highly. Or, at least, this is what CAO and the department are thinking. In reality, it probably won't really make much difference. You still won't see many people below 550 getting in.

You're right about the 550 but I think the major problem about the aptitude test is the assumption that people will answer it honestly. Loads of people would easily be smart enough to manipulate the way they answer a test to make them sound more doctory (it's a word!, adjective technically). I think that we're just adding an aptitude test to the mix but keeping the problem the same.
Maybe we should interview them as well. Although, I don't think I'd ever be comfortable telling random strangers (particularly ones that may end up teaching me) something like that about myself. As it is, I've only ever told one person the actual true reason behind it and she had to really earn that right.
Perhaps psychological screening would be the best route to take...

kaki

Psychological screening ftw. Although it could become so bizarre, that the people who were really really deadset on doing medicine could construct and present a doctory (totally a word) persona just for the screening. Because I'm not sure that there is any errectable barrier that cannot be swept aside by sheer bloodimindedness and toil.

But, yeah, I agree with kellykl. I can't see many folks on <550 getting in via the new system. T'was a lovely idea in theory.

LizT

kellykl wrote: »

I think the whole point is that HPAT is more of an aptitude test rather than an academic one. It's supposed to be something you can't study or prepare for. So you may have someone with 600 points who scores really low on the aptitide test and someone with 480 who scores really highly. Or, at least, this is what CAO and the department are thinking. In reality, it probably won't really make much difference. You still won't see many people below 550 getting in.

I did the HPAT to get into University of Ulster, to study Speech and Language therapy. I personally don't see the relevance of it to any profession. I came out thinking i did crap and ended up in the top 7%... It just seems completely random!

ZorbaTehZ

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

You're right about the 550 but I think the major problem about the aptitude test is the assumption that people will answer it honestly. Loads of people would easily be smart enough to manipulate the way they answer a test to make them sound more doctory (it's a word!, adjective technically). I think that we're just adding an aptitude test to the mix but keeping the problem the same.

From what I have seen of the equivalents - BMAT and AMAT tests - I'd be inclined to disagree. If I were to liken them to anything, then it would be to personality or IQ tests, with a strong test of a persons reasoning ability. Also worth noting that there will be no subjective correcting of answers (apart from the essay if they decided to include one) simply multiple choice which dominate the test.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Maybe we should interview them as well. Although, I don't think I'd ever be comfortable telling random strangers (particularly ones that may end up teaching me) something like that about myself. As it is, I've only ever told one person the actual true reason behind it and she had to really earn that right.
Perhaps psychological screening would be the best route to take...

Interviewing would be the single best way to judge a candidate's character and what should be ideally introduced - although I don't think one would need to go so far as a psychological screening

LizT

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

From what I have seen of the equivalents - BMAT and AMAT tests - I'd be inclined to disagree. If I were to liken them to anything, then it would be to personality or IQ tests, with a strong test of a persons reasoning ability. Also worth noting that there will be no subjective correcting of answers (apart from the essay if they decided to include one) simply multiple choice which dominate the test.

the HPAT always includes two essays.

ZorbaTehZ

lizt wrote: »

the HPAT always includes two essays.

Do you have a source for that - I had a quick look around before I made that post and all i could find was this which does not make any references to essays, althought it would seem strange if they did not include one tbh.

Piste

I've seen a sample paper for the HPAT (linked to in another thread) and yup there are essays on it. I don't like the look of the essays, for one thing I havent a clue how much to write, and also the titles are so vague and wishy washy...

ZorbaTehZ

And as was said on that same thread "that paper you linked is a sample for the University of Ulster's HPAT, not the HPAT for CAO courses"

Piste

Yeah there's no HPAT-Ireland paper yet because there's never been a HPAT-ireland test before. I'd say the HPAT-Ulster is the closest approximation to what the HPAT-Ireland test will be that we'll see for a while. I hope they put up a HPAT-Ireland sample paper at some point in case they decide to tinker around with the Ulster one and make some changes. That said, the Ulster HPAT looks very easy (though we might get stung on the essays- who knows?!) so they might decide to toughen it up a bit.

lizt wrote: »

the HPAT always includes two essays.

How long are the essays? And in the last section where it says "develop a piece of wiriting in response to one or more of the following statements" How many did you write about?



Maybe they just want the essays to make sure our writing's illegible enough for prescriptions :pac:

Carsinian Thau

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

From what I have seen of the equivalents - BMAT and AMAT tests - I'd be inclined to disagree. If I were to liken them to anything, then it would be to personality or IQ tests, with a strong test of a persons reasoning ability. Also worth noting that there will be no subjective correcting of answers (apart from the essay if they decided to include one) simply multiple choice which dominate the test.

Good point. I'd guess that'd be something like the tests used when applying to UCAS to get medicine. I only ever looked at the samples but they seemed challenging. Kind of what you'd want for medical students to be good at.

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

Interviewing would be the single best way to judge a candidate's character and what should be ideally introduced - although I don't think one would need to go so far as a psychological screening

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Carsinian Thau

lizt wrote: »

the HPAT always includes two essays.

Would the judging of essays have the required objectivity to fairly award places to people though?
We'd have to have a fair few people to read the essays and they might have different ideas as to what constitutes the most suitable type of answer.

LizT

As far as I'm aware the HPAT for medicine will follw pretty much the same format as the one I did. The essays - pretty random! The first one I had to do we were given a load of statistics about children exercising and childhood obesity and basically you just have to write an essay containing these facts. The second one I had to do was where I was given about five different quotes all about the passing or time and regrets... I had no clue what to write, basically waffled my way through the two of them and got a good score! There's a time limit as well on each section of the test. The essays were about 30 minutes each I think although I can't be sure!

LizT

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Would the judging of essays have the required objectivity to fairly award places to people though?
We'd have to have a fair few people to read the essays and they might have different ideas as to what constitutes the most suitable type of answer.

Two different examiners correct the essay part of your test.

Carsinian Thau

lizt wrote: »

As far as I'm aware the HPAT for medicine will follw pretty much the same format as the one I did. The essays - pretty random! The first one I had to do we were given a load of statistics about children exercising and childhood obesity and basically you just have to write an essay containing these facts. The second one I had to do was where I was given about five different quotes all about the passing or time and regrets... I had no clue what to write, basically waffled my way through the two of them and got a good score! There's a time limit as well on each section of the test. The essays were about 30 minutes each I think although I can't be sure!

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

rainbow kirby

Interesting read - though I can't see it making much of a difference.

turgon

Medicine smells funny.

But its good that people with a genuine interest will now get a chance.

Malmedicine

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".

Your heads up your arse mate.

1. No such thing as an easy A1 ever
2. Slacker repeaters - don't think they exist, especially if looking to do medicine.

Carsinian Thau wrote:

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Medically based stuff..... Why? You know absolutely diddly squat about medicine and yet you want questions on it or to review stats and answer an essay on it? The other example you put forward is equally absurd.And dear god hope they are not marked by medics!!!!!!

Difficulties with interviewing are as you said neopotism, favouritism, gender issues ( ideally the med schools would like 50/50 and this would be a chance to redress the increase that has occured due to girls getting higher marks in the LC).
The best way is the fairest way IMO and that way is the CAO. You work hard you get it, if you dont get it first time ,repeat (trust me you'll work twice as hard and you'll should have filled all matriculation requirments so you can drop 'subjects that do not interest you and pick up subjects that do'). Oh and apply to UCAS, if your only willing to do medicine in Ireland, you have to ask yourself, 'Do you want it that much then?'

Carsinian Thau

Malmedicine wrote: »

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".

Your heads up your arse mate.

1. No such thing as an easy A1 ever
2. Slacker repeaters - don't think they exist, especially if looking to do medicine.

Carsinian Thau wrote:

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Medically based stuff..... Why? You know absolutely diddly squat about medicine and yet you want questions on it or to review stats and answer an essay on it? The other example you put forward is equally absurd.And dear god hope they are not marked by medics!!!!!!

Difficulties with interviewing are as you said neopotism, favouritism, gender issues ( ideally the med schools would like 50/50 and this would be a chance to redress the increase that has occured due to girls getting higher marks in the LC).
The best way is the fairest way IMO and that way is the CAO. You work hard you get it, if you dont get it first time ,repeat (trust me you'll work twice as hard and you'll should have filled all matriculation requirments so you can drop 'subjects that do not interest you and pick up subjects that do'). Oh and apply to UCAS, if your only willing to do medicine in Ireland, you have to ask yourself, 'Do you want it that much then?'

I won't address what you said to the other poster but I'd like to say that there's no need to be so agressive.

Out of curiosity, how do you know I know "diddly squat" about medicine?
I know what obesity is and I think analysing the impact of excercise on it is something anyone with a basic interest in medicine and a leaving cert should be capable of.
I also think it appropriate for medical students to have an awareness of death and what would constitute an approximately correct attitude to dealing with it.
I don't think it right to call any suggestion along those lines absurd. Of course, for some reason you strike me as being fairly arrogant and naturally, in such case, wouldn't like to see the introduction of anything that doesn't work for you.

Feel free not to respond to this unless you feel like being more constructive with your feedback.

LizT

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

sillymoo

lizt wrote: »

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

Seconded

Carsinian Thau

lizt wrote: »

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

Completely agree with this.
The ability to remember an entire shelf of textbooks doesn't make a good doctor. Personality and attitude are way more important.

Malmedicine

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I won't address what you said to the other poster but I'd like to say that there's no need to be so agressive.

Out of curiosity, how do you know I know "diddly squat" about medicine?

Well would you like me to flounce about and tell you that indeed everything you commented on is correct. Are you a Doctor in disguise/ a med student/ some one who reads the times health supplement???? I'm guessing the third at best hence the diddly squat remark.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I know what obesity is and I think analysing the impact of excercise on it is something anyone with a basic interest in medicine and a leaving cert should be capable of.

How do you measure obesity? What are the flaws of this system? How could the impact of exercise be skewed? What defines obesity/exercise/impact? Ok so lets say you do know all of the above, fine good . . . did you do biology? Did the taking of that subject aid you? Maybe your parents are in a medical field or something else down those lines and that has aided you? Is it fair to ask the same question to someone who (a) hasn't taken biology (remember its not a pre requiste for most courses) or (b) doesn't have parents as doctors etc. If you place questions on the exam like that you are benefitting certain students at the detriment of others, something I think you are battling against.

I'm not trying to bash your enthusiasm or interest in medicine.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I also think it appropriate for medical students to have an awareness of death and what would constitute an approximately correct attitude to dealing with it.

An awareness of death and how it affects people? The correct attitude to dealing with it? As you said medical students should be able to answer these questions but unless you have had the misfortune to have to deal with these questions, I don't feel prospective med students are in a position to answer these questions truthfully (as opposed to properly). Thats why I thought it absurd to ask prospective students to answer questions about dealing with death and the emotions it entails when hopefully for the vast majority they have not expierianced it and consequently them. Med students learn through the course/experiance how to deal with these questions both internally and externally.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Of course, for some reason you strike me as being fairly arrogant and naturally, in such case, wouldn't like to see the introduction of anything that doesn't work for you.

Feel free not to respond to this unless you feel like being more constructive with your feedback.

I know your heart is in the right place but honestly your giving examples that I really believe are just not fair, workable or in the best interest of the majority of students who would be taking it.

The UCAS system is a decent system for the UK(plenty of med schools compared to here, not as big a chance as old school ties or doctors rubbing doctors backs, only 5 here?) but there are plenty of flaws in it also. An essay as a screening tool is highly subjective, and as you said about work expieriance it should be important, but what stops someone from lying?? What would stop a school from having a template year after year for getting students through?

This one really gets my goat though

To Lizt as well,

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

The ability to remember an entire shelf of textbooks doesn't make a good doctor. Personality and attitude are way more important

It might'nt make a good doctor but it sure as hell helps . Personality and attitude will get you so far but if you can't commit to the work involved, it sure does make it hard to progress to actually being in a position for someone to call you doctor. High points do show an ability to be able to handle high workloads which is needed. And there are plenty of people who go into college as a shy retiring wallflower and come out of their shell and develop their personality, something that may have been suppressed in secondary school either by school or peers.

Stepherunie

Essays are a woeful way to go. Especially the topics that are being presented here.

17/18 years olds shouldn't have to have dealt with these types of things. People that age shouldn't be able to be competent in dealing with death. I'm 23 and have seen people die whilst on placement in hospital and it still affects me.

I still remember vividly the first person that I saw about to die when I was doing my radiography placement. I was 19 and I went home that night and cried because it was such a crazy experience. And yet someone suggests that we should see how people would suggest how they cope with it, nothing prepares you for it and asking them to write an essay is asking them to come up with their own beliefs about themselves and then realise that there actual reaction is completely different.

If someone had asked me before that day I would have told them that I would have said a prayer for that man, then collect my thoughts and move on because I thought I was strong enough for it not to affect me. Instead I couldn't get that mans' face out of my head for the rest of the day.


You need to be realistic about these things, when I applied to the UK I had to write about 24 short paragraphs talking about how I had dealt with previous experiences, and they ranged from rows with friends to pressurised situations.

You can learn a lot by peoples past, it is a guide to the future. Hypotheses do not aid you because they don't give you a representation of who those people really are.

Carsinian Thau

Malmedicine wrote: »

Well would you like me to flounce about and tell you that indeed everything you commented on is correct. Are you a Doctor in disguise/ a med student/ some one who reads the times health supplement???? I'm guessing the third at best hence the diddly squat remark.

How do you measure obesity? What are the flaws of this system? How could the impact of exercise be skewed? What defines obesity/exercise/impact? Ok so lets say you do know all of the above, fine good . . . did you do biology? Did the taking of that subject aid you? Maybe your parents are in a medical field or something else down those lines and that has aided you? Is it fair to ask the same question to someone who (a) hasn't taken biology (remember its not a pre requiste for most courses) or (b) doesn't have parents as doctors etc. If you place questions on the exam like that you are benefitting certain students at the detriment of others, something I think you are battling against.

I'm not trying to bash your enthusiasm or interest in medicine.

An awareness of death and how it affects people? The correct attitude to dealing with it? As you said medical students should be able to answer these questions but unless you have had the misfortune to have to deal with these questions, I don't feel prospective med students are in a position to answer these questions truthfully (as opposed to properly). Thats why I thought it absurd to ask prospective students to answer questions about dealing with death and the emotions it entails when hopefully for the vast majority they have not expierianced it and consequently them. Med students learn through the course/experiance how to deal with these questions both internally and externally.

I know your heart is in the right place but honestly your giving examples that I really believe are just not fair, workable or in the best interest of the majority of students who would be taking it.

The UCAS system is a decent system for the UK(plenty of med schools compared to here, not as big a chance as old school ties or doctors rubbing doctors backs, only 5 here?) but there are plenty of flaws in it also. An essay as a screening tool is highly subjective, and as you said about work expieriance it should be important, but what stops someone from lying?? What would stop a school from having a template year after year for getting students through?

This one really gets my goat though

It might'nt make a good doctor but it sure as hell helps . Personality and attitude will get you so far but if you can't commit to the work involved, it sure does make it hard to progress to actually being in a position for someone to call you doctor. High points do show an ability to be able to handle high workloads which is needed. And there are plenty of people who go into college as a shy retiring wallflower and come out of their shell and develop their personality, something that may have been suppressed in secondary school either by school or peers.

Your points about how both systems are flawed are true. But I do prefer the idea of personality being taken into account over academic ability alone. My reasoning behind this is to lessen the possibility that people with bad attitudes would become doctors.
The one trait that I can't stand in doctors is arrogance. Not the type of arrogance that seems to occur in people who work really hard and become so good that they find it difficult to believe that they're not God but the arrogance that comes from doctors who like to think they're better than everyone else because they've been through medical school and have passed their boards exams and have worked in their position for x years.
Unfortuantely I've met quite a few of those type (the worst being a GP who didn't even try to pretend that he didn't think himself to be an entirely separate species to me).
I've encountered students with that type of attitude as well. In far too many of those cases I've heard them say that they intend to study med. Some have gotten it, others haven't. I dread to think that people like that would become doctors.

I'll admit that in the relatively small number of medical students that I do know, I don't see a lot of that trait. Perhaps I'm blind to it though.

I don't think we'll ever find a system that really works. And in the end of the day, provided they're competent it doesn't really amtter what type of doctor you have, provided you have one.

Piste

Malmedicine wrote: »

Carsinian Thau wrote:

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Medically based stuff..... Why? You know absolutely diddly squat about medicine and yet you want questions on it or to review stats and answer an essay on it? The other example you put forward is equally absurd.And dear god hope they are not marked by medics!!!!!!

I'd just like to clear up, for the first essay you're not expected to know anything about the topic, and it wont always be medical-based either. You're given various statistics and various forms (bar charts, pie charts, bullet points etc.) and you have to correllate them in an essay. All the information is given to you, you don't have to know anything before hand.

lizt wrote: »

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

That makes a massive assumption that everyone going to into medicine wants to become a doctor. Of course the vast majority will be entering medicine with the aim to becoming a doctor, but there are other possibilites such as research, medical journalism etc.

I'd also much rather the doctor that knew medicine inside out and could cure me than the doctor that could charm my pants off.

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

That makes a massive assumption that everyone going to into medicine wants to become a doctor. Of course the vast majority will be entering medicine with the aim to becoming a doctor, but there are other possibilites such as research, medical journalism etc.

Sorry but this just seems a little silly - why spend 5 to 6 years studying medicine and your aim is not to become a doctor? If you want to get into research or medical journalism etc. dont do medicine! There are other mediaclly related courses you can do if that rocks your boat eg biomedical science. Even if your aim is not to become a doctor, and you do medicine, you will still have to practice after qualifying in your intern year, and it wont be fun being on call with very little sleep if you really want to be a journalist! At the end of the day, the worst doctors I have come across are the ones that were pushed into doing medicine and do not enjoy their job.

Piste

The really serious medical research at the top level would require a medical degree at least. But I realise that most people that do medicine want to be doctors, I don't think we should cherry-pick the people that have the best personalities though.

For things like surgery where the only contact you'll have with your patient is explaining the procedure eforehand and mybe saying how it went afterwards skill is far more important than personality.

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

The really serious medical research at the top level would require a medical degree at least.

Actually surprisingly no - for example most of the researchers who are doing reserch in RCSI actually started by doing science degrees in Trinity.

For things like surgery where the only contact you'll have with your patient is explaining the procedure eforehand and mybe saying how it went afterwards skill is far more important than personality.

People forget how important a good personality is, yes to be a surgeon you need to be skillful however you also need to be able to talk to the patient and earn their trust before eg. open heart surgery where the patient will be terified. Besides the relationship with the patient, you also need to be able to relate to their families, and with other staff. Nobody wants to work with somebody who has terrible interpersonal skills!

Piste

I agree that nobody wants to deal with someone who has terrible interpersonal skillz, but those people are few and far between, I'd prefer someone who was polite, maybe a little shy but told me what I needed to know and was technically brilliant rather than someone who was lovely and made me feel completely at ease but left their scalpel inside me!

I think more emphasis needs to be put on section 2 of the HPAT, that's the part that's mostly about relating to people. That'd weed out the people who are socially retarded but academically brilliant.

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

I agree that nobody wants to deal with someone who has terrible interpersonal skillz, but those people are few and far between, I'd prefer someone who was polite, maybe a little shy but told me what I needed to know and was technically brilliant rather than someone who was lovely and made me feel completely at ease but left their scalpel inside me!

I think more emphasis needs to be put on section 2 of the HPAT, that's the part that's mostly about relating to people. That'd weed out the people who are socially retarded but academically brilliant.

Fair enough! Mind you the majority people I know doing medicine are great and have the best personalities yet are still academically brilliant - I suppose you had to be to get into the course before the new guidelines! Thats the ideal combination really. And id happily let them leave a scapel in me

Piste

I suppose you'd get so much from suing them that it'd be worth it...


I'd imagine that most people who start out in medicine are grand and all, but once they begin to realise they can play God and tinker around with people's bodies they get more arrogant. Can't see that changing with the new system!

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

I suppose you'd get so much from suing them that it'd be worth it...


I'd imagine that most people who start out in medicine are grand and all, but once they begin to realise they can play God and tinker around with people's bodies they get more arrogant. Can't see that changing with the new system!

Well we will see how it goes....... Guess your headed for medicine then? Bumpy long road but pleasent surprises on the way

Anyway I think this thread has gone WAY off topic!

ZorbaTehZ

Malmedicine wrote:

Your heads up your arse mate.

1. No such thing as an easy A1 ever
2. Slacker repeaters - don't think they exist, especially if looking to do medicine.

1,380 views of this thread, and you're the only one that disagrees with me. All your replies have been extremely trollish so far, so I'll leave it at that.

I'd like to point out again that there's yet to be any sources provided for what's been said so far in the thread regarding the essays, with the only HPAT-Ireland sources indicating there wont be any essays at all.

Piste

The HPAT-Ulster test contains two essays, it's likely that the HPAT-ireland test will be modelled on the HPAT-Ulster because it's tried and tested. I think most of the comments on this thread in relation to essays have been hypothetical- IF there were essays on the HPAT-Ireland exam.


ZorbahTehZ don't cry troll just because someone's opinon differs from yours, I can see nothing trollish in Malmedicine's posts, s/he just disagrees with you is all.

LizT

Piste wrote: »

That makes a massive assumption that everyone going to into medicine wants to become a doctor. Of course the vast majority will be entering medicine with the aim to becoming a doctor, but there are other possibilites such as research, medical journalism etc.

I'd also much rather the doctor that knew medicine inside out and could cure me than the doctor that could charm my pants off.

I don't believe it does make that assumption. One would simply state that their aim is to eventually become a medical journalist or whatever in their personal statement.

Piste

What personal statement?

LizT

Piste wrote: »

What personal statement?

For UCAS you have to write a personal statement. that was the point I was trying to make - that's why the British system is better for medicine applicants. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

poppy08

well i want to do med. just did leaving cert, didn't get points, got 520. Applyed to Ucas tho, had a jaw droppingly good personal statemnet ( <thats my careers cousellors words, not mine), full of medical charity/training (order of malta etc.). aptitutude was normal. still didn't get in?. Apparently i don't match "social criteria". Although i think the irish system tough with high marks, atleast u know what you need to get in to med. in Britian they just pick and choose whoever they want- no exactly a better system IMO

Carsinian Thau

poppy08 wrote: »

well i want to do med. just did leaving cert, didn't get points, got 520. Applyed to Ucas tho, had a jaw droppingly good personal statemnet ( <thats my careers cousellors words, not mine), full of medical charity/training (order of malta etc.). aptitutude was normal. still didn't get in?. Apparently i don't match "social criteria". Although i think the irish system tough with high marks, atleast u know what you need to get in to med. in Britian they just pick and choose whoever they want- no exactly a better system IMO

Sorry to hear that.
But seeing as you're at 520, repeating sounds like a good option.
Cut out subjects like English etc. and things could get easier. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. But if you decide to reapply to UCAS, it may be a good idea to get more than one guidance counsellor to take a look at your personal statement.

poppy08

yea, i have already bookd my place in a grind school as i am determined to study med, Don't think i'll bother reapplying to UCAS, only a couple of colleges will consider repeat students and only in rare cases have they been accepted . And with the new irish requirements for med. i need to resit eng, irish,french, maths. This year i got A1's in all 3 science subjects but my problem is i'm not so hot only the others!. i think all over the country there are peole who know they want med. and for whatever reason they can't get into it. Ultimately i suppose those who keep at it and finally qualify as a doctor will learn alot from their struggle and make them better doctors in the end!.....atl east thats what i tell myself to help me sleep at night:o