Anyone watch the dog brothers on TV3 last night

smacl

Not a bad documentary at all, albeit that it was a wee bit one sided having been produced by the dog brothers themselves. The no refs, no judges, no medals thing was interesting, the emphasis being on participation. Was less impressed with the safety thing, even if the track record for serious injury is low.

I'd be interested in seeing how this compares with weapon sparring over here.

Leo?

Missed it, thought it was about bareknuckled boxing with a name like "underground fight club".

Roper

Not into stick fighting but the dog brothers attitude always interested me. They seem to be at the extreme end of the spectrum though, the opposite end being musical weapons forms of course

smacl

You obviously missed their morris dancing kata

Most of the stick fights, with one notable exception, seemed to end up as ground fights, finishing with either submission or G&P. Tactic seemed to be to rush your opponent to get inside of effective stick range. The one guy that got it wrong got knocked out by a stick blow to the head. Most of the stick work seemed to be strikes rather than stabs, not sure why.

Martin25

I saw about half of it. These guys are tough and are nice people outside the ring, but there are a lot of nasty injuries. On a DVD I saw one guy with his thumb destroyed from the knuckle up, and another with his kneecap pretty much knocked off.
Getting knocked out with a stick is not to be recommended.
How can any one work the next day following this type of injury?
I have been hit by sticks etc and its not that enjoyable! But there you go.
Martin

cowzerp

It was interesting, basically low standard MMA with sticks used, the sticks where used like blows instead of like stabbing because they hurt more as blows..if they where swords then they would of stabbed aswell..this was afight and not sword games!

spiral

I have a buddy who fights with the dog brothers in LA.
Basically one way or another you have to close the gap and take the other guy down. Otherwise you both end up whacking away at each other. He does FMA and is a purple belt in BJJ.
A lot of those guys do FMA and BJJ .

ch252

Yeah, I seen a triangle put on at one stage, it was as cowzerp said, very basic mma with sticks.http://www.dogbrothers.com/ Thats their site, loads of videos on youtube also.

spiral

Yeah its certainly a lot more realistic thyan some of the escrima tournaments I've seen video of where they have a huge padded jacket and helmet

Dragan

spiral wrote: »

Yeah its certainly a lot more realistic thyan some of the escrima tournaments I've seen video of where they have a huge padded jacket and helmet

Indeed, terrible that anyone should be concerned about participant safety.

I don't get the point in hurting someone else to the degree that these guys occassionally do in training, just so you can appear "hard".

spiral

in all honesty Dragan , no one forces them to do it and I think they recommend you come for a look before you participate. Some people who train with the sticks want an avenue where they can compete as realistically as possible.
That being said I probably think they could make it a bit safer but that would detract from their image or hardness. I think a few of them are probably a bit mad to be honest.

Kent Brockman

What are the chances of anyone ever actually being involved in a stick or knife 'fight' in reality?,Unless you are going to carry sticks and knives around all the time in case you are attacked by someone with similar weapons?

It all seems a bit pointless to me and all really only bravado and machoism.

Charlie3dan

Kent Brockman wrote: »

What are the chances of anyone ever actually being involved in a stick or knife 'fight' in reality?,Unless you are going to carry sticks and knives around all the time in case you are attacked by someone with similar weapons?

It all seems a bit pointless to me and all really only bravado and machoism.

Agree with Kent here.

I must admit I didn't see the documentary, but what I have seen looks like Jackass crossed with martial arts

Dave Joyce

Wow an amazing number of FMA "experts" with some interesting comments. If you think I'm been a bit defensive about FMA, well yes you're right particularly in the context of how some MMA guys reacted on a thread sometime ago when a poster ventured that the standard of striking in MMA in Ireland was poor. Of those guys with their negative attitudes, how many of you have done "any" training in FMA?

It all seems a bit pointless to me and all really only bravado and machoism.

Hmm, a lot of people say this about guys that fight with limited rules in a cage too ya know! It amazes me that when "SOME" MMA afficiandos castigate TMA for the lack of reality/level of bullsheet, they then have the gall to make comments like the above and this is certainly not the first time I've heard this type of comment. Ok maybe you're not into FMA but you want to critise guys who want to see what works for real in an envirnoment with as few rules as possible???!!! WTF!!!!

Yeah its certainly a lot more realistic thyan some of the escrima tournaments I've seen video of where they have a huge padded jacket and helmet

Have you done any WEKAF style sparring Spiral, cause even with the all the gear it still CAN hurt like a MF and I've seen guys get cut through the helmet, ribs bruised through the suits and guys with hand fracutures through Ice hockey gloves!!

I don't get the point in hurting someone else to the degree that these guys occassionally do in training, just so you can appear "hard".

Dragan, its not about been/looking "hard". As Denny said during the film, some people want to test themselves under pressure/or in intense situations (and if you do FMA this is one of the most appropreiate places). Its like the guys that want to do any of Geoff Thompsons Animal Days!

What are the chances of anyone ever actually being involved in a stick or knife 'fight' in reality?,Unless you are going to carry sticks and knives around all the time in case you are attacked by someone with similar weapons?

Finally the best "quote"! If you actually trained any FMA you would know there is a lot more to the training than weapon work, Panantukan is Filipino boxing, Sikaran is Filipino kicking, Yaw Yan is Filipino Muaythai and Dumog is Filipino grappling. Apart from all the above, if you knew anything about FMA, you would be aware that part of the weapon training improves/compliments your empty hand skills. A lot of those skills taught/learnt in weapons training can be applied to empty hand training.

Tim_Murphy

Gotta go with Dave on this one.

Hmm, a lot of people say this about guys that fight with limited rules in a cage too ya know!

Indeed they would.

I'd have zero interest in doing stick fighting but as someone who occasionally like scrapping with people in a cage I’d hardly criticise it.

Dragan

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Dragan, its not about been/looking "hard". As Denny said during the film, some people want to test themselves under pressure/or in intense situations (and if you do FMA this is one of the most appropreiate places). Its like the guys that want to do any of Geoff Thompsons Animal Days!

Cool. Cheers for clearing that up.

spiral

Dave Im sure it does hurt with those jackets , just saying the Dog Brothers stuff is more realistic IMO.
No interest in participating but I think its goodb theres a venue for people to test themselves this way if they wish.

Nothingcompares

The dog brothers thing is more along the lines of NHB VT rather than MMA. MMA is a sport, it's fighting but it's a sport with rules and procedure rather than gentlemanly agreements. I don't condone this type of meet up nor do I condone other extreme hobbys like 200km marathons or sky diving - just reckless endangerment.

Scramble

I have a couple of the Dog Brothers DVDs (the instructional material) and it's interesting stuff. 'MMA with sticks' is a fair enough description of it, although I think they'd argue that they do keep quite close to their FMA root arts, although I gather that alot of what they do now is actually from krabi krabong.

From what I can tell there's a few things that should be noted about their approach: The Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association teaches all the various stuff they do and has members all over the world. Of these guys, I think only a comparatively small number actually fight at the Gatherings. In this respect, it's probably no different to the way in which most MMA gyms have lots of guys training but only a few who actually compete in the cage.

The other thing is that while the Gatherings are obviously risky and injuries occur most of the guys fighting seem to know each other and exhibit a lot of respect for one another. If this is the way their group wants to test themselves out a few times a year (it's not like it's happening every weekend) then I think more power to them. Seems no different to me than any other combat sport in principle.

Roper

It's not like they're ambushing some guy. They agree to meet, know the score and have certain safety limits in place.

I wouldn't get in a fight with a man who wanted to hit me with a stick! I have enough trouble with knees, kicks and punches! But I swung a stick around with Scuttery and Ush a few years back and had great craic and found it bloody hard.

David Jones

Didnt see the documentary, but myself, JK and Dave Roche on our first trip to LA in 2000 got to roll with Marc Denny, He was a blue belt under the Machados at the time and pretty slick on the ground, gi and no gi. Seemed a little crazy but then everyone in LA is.

Kent Brockman

First of all Dave my comment was not in anyway directed at FMA (didn't know what that was til I googled it ) and I'm sorry if it annoyed you.

I didnt see the program and having read the thread was merely offering my opinion on people learning to stab and slash, and beat other people with sticks. (it also seems that people can be seriously hurt while learning to do this?)

It amazes me that when "SOME" MMA afficiandos castigate TMA for the lack of reality/level of bullsheet, they then have the gall to make comments like the above and this is certainly not the first time I've heard this type of comment.

In fairness you dont know me and seem to have included me in some group that you have a beef against (as per above comment). I learn Bjj for fittness and enjoyment. Thats it.

Finally the best "quote"! If you actually trained any FMA you would know there is a lot more to the training than weapon work, Panantukan is Filipino boxing, Sikaran is Filipino kicking, Yaw Yan is Filipino Muaythai and Dumog is Filipino grappling. Apart from all the above, if you knew anything about FMA, you would be aware that part of the weapon training improves/compliments your empty hand skills. A lot of those skills taught/learnt in weapons training can be applied to empty hand training.

To this statement all I can say is that my post was specifically re learning and practicing how to fight with sticks and knives, nothing else.

This is a forum where different people with different points of view and different backgrounds can discuss, debate and offer different opinions on particular subjects. It would be quite boring if we all agreed all the time.

I ,as many others do, have my own opinions on many things which I have never trained in or practiced. This will not always concur with others and their opinions but I would like to think I can voice this opinion and listen to other different ones without disrespecting or being disrespected.

Again this was not meant to disrespect you or what you practice, it is more of a lack of understanding on my part as to why people would want to hurt each other with sticks , or learn to fight with Knives.

Thats all

Scramble

From Marc Denny :-

Woof Gentlemen:

To assist you in your search for what to make of what we do, in the middle of a busy day may I quickly offer the following?

While I got an "executive producer" credit, that is more eye wash than anything else. The fact is that I had no control at all and there were some things in the piece which I did not care for at all and that my concerns were ignored.

The selection of fight footage does give the impression received by many here: low-level MMA with sticks. Our "DB Gathering" is open to all levels and the fighting reflects that. The high level fights of the day were not shown by Nat Geo. Nor was I allowed to use a slo-mo explanation of even one sequence to help people appreciate the very high level of skill which is shown by the better fighters. Please forgive the advertisement, but for some visuals of technique in application, go to www.dogbrothers.com and click on the "Dos Triques" promo clip to see a modified version of the combination commonly known as "Redondo Three" repeatedly used in conjunction with different triangular footwork patterns. Would you have recognized any of that without it being broke down for you, let alone by watching the footage poorly selected by a clueless Holllywood weenie who thought the crashing and grappling more exciting? Bottom line-- Agreeing that the documentary offers no proof of what I say, I do assert that we have some seriously high quality fighters and fights.

Concerning Krabi Krabong, it certainly has become part of the mix, but in my opinion the FMA overwhelmingly remain the main source. By the way, for those calling us "MMA with sticks" please consider that maybe the direction of history is the reverse-- Muay Thai (and its influence on MMA) came from Krabi Krabong, and there is a school of thought which thinks the shift from palm up boxing (John L Sullivan) to palm down of the modern era is due to the influence of Filipino Panajakman and related systems http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=206.0 As for what we do, the FMA have been fighting with these weapons long before there were martial arts tournaments and sport cage fights :-)

As for the meaning and merit of it all, that is up to you and I intrude no further.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

Martin25

Dave
I should have added that I found that hitting people with sticks was rather therapeutic! Seriously though, the FMA are a great art and I have been practising them for more than 20 years.
Martin

Dave Joyce

Cool, must more positive second page, thanks for that guys. Wasn't looking for people to agree with me, just a case of each to his own and just having a bit of respect for each others viewpoint.

Annoying thing is I have my issues with some Dog Bros stuff and moreso Denny himself, but here I found myself having to defend them:(. However, they ARE innovators and I will always repsect them for that.

Martin25

Yea you can't really bull**** about how something won't workwhen someone is fighting hard like that!

DeVore

As I understand it there is also a certain amount of "fight club" psychology/psychotherapy involved to in terms of "testing" oneself.

I'm not sure I'd like to go that far but then again, they arent insisting I do

So long as the combatants are:
1. Mental competent
2. Have seen examples of what they are getting themselves into
3. Capable of defending themselves against their intended opponent (skillwise)

then I'm not sure I would want anyone stopping them. I certainly don't want them to hit ME with those sticks thanks, but if they want to knock each other about to excise some pent up emotion, hey go nuts.

DeV.

Nothingcompares

replace sticks with live blades and does your stance change?

Martin25

Impact weapons need more body torque and power behind them. Blades are a touch weapon and the stance tends to tighten up to cover the vital areas as much as possible ,having the hands open and waving about is for the movies!

DeVore

Nothingcompares wrote: »

replace sticks with live blades and does your stance change?

No, actually it wouldnt. I would, though, insist on observation by third parties to ensure that the requirements I listed above are strictly enforced.

I support voluntary euuthanasia too and I believe suicide should be decriminalised (if it hasnt already). Its your body, your life, I honestly believe you should be allowed to do what you want with it.

I *would* consider anyone who participated to be idiots and selfish cnuts with no regard for the people who love them and have to pick up the pieces but thats their problem.
I would have nothing to do with facilitating it, promoting it, or enabling it in any way. Thats *my* choice. After that, lop each others heads off if you want.

DeV.

Nothingcompares

I wasn't disputing their "right" to do this I just wanted to highlight the inherent silliness of it. I can't help but think there are very few dog sisters out there, this type of behaviour is really only something a group of lads can indulge themselves in.

Martin25

There are female fighters as well

Scramble

Yep, they give females that fight at the gatherings the designation 'cat' as opposed to 'dog'. (Seriously)

I don't think it's that surprising that females participate as well as guys. If women train and enjoy MMA, then I don't think this is significantly different.

From what I take from these guys, my impression is that it isn't just about machismo (although sure, whose to say for a few guys maybe it is... just like in other martial arts). It seems to have started off as them taking their conventional FMA training and just wanting to know if it actually did what it said on the tin. Then they realised they had a format for testing themselves and obviously they liked what happened when they started doing that. If you watch the clips a lot of them are professionals, cops etc. they don't strike me as meatheads just doing it for the self-harm.

DeVore

I certainly dont want to give the idea that I think they are meatheads into self harm. My comments were in response to the "thought experiment" of replacing the sticks with sharp weapons, which significantly ups the ante!

DeV.

Yilmaz

I thought the programme was interesting enough. I wouldn't fancy it myself but if the fighters are of sound mind and know what's involved I wouldn't disagree with their choice to do it.

Odysseus

Nothingcompares wrote: »

The dog brothers thing is more along the lines of NHB VT rather than MMA. MMA is a sport, it's fighting but it's a sport with rules and procedure rather than gentlemanly agreements. I don't condone this type of meet up nor do I condone other extreme hobbys like 200km marathons or sky diving - just reckless endangerment.

Hope I'm not going to far off topic but as an ultra runner and somebody who has had a full malfunction whilst jumping a few years back [I'm not a excellent jumper] but still considerd safe. When it turned bad I was able to follow the required procedure.

I just can't contemplate how you would consider such activities to be reckless. I had a bad run less than two week ago I finished but it took alot for the last 40k the event medic drove beside me at least 6-7 times checking I was fit to continue, nothing reckless there.

Nothingcompares

Reckless because I don't think there is anything to gain by ultra running only things to lose (it's not unusual for people to have heart attacks while running regular marathons). Obviously there is personal gain but that's another matter.

Odysseus

I ran with a man in his seventies a few times, had done over 500 ultra still running and still a lot fitter than alot of men in his seventies. I know one doctor who connects marathons with heart attacks but to the best of my knowledge they are rare. As far as I know 2 people have died in marathon in Ireland. Last year over 10,000 ran in Dublin alone, for the most part unless your a professional in your sport aren't all our sporting endeavours for personal gain, even the dog brothers.

Cheers for your reply but clearly as a ultra runner I would disaggre, I would say its like getting involved in stuff like the dog brothers and one the person possesses the ability to do so, its an informed choice rather than reckless endagerment.

DeVore

Surely its a sliding scale?

I was a snowboarder for many years and have done myself a number of "mischiefs" including a snapped femur and compressed vertibrae. While I would love to irradicate those times of pain, I wouldnt be so quick to do so if it meant losing the memories of standing on top a mountain and realising my place in the universe.

All activities carry danger, all life is risk I guess. The line is drawn by each person individually and I would draw my line well before the Dog Bros sort of activity, but they have their own lines and they arent hurting anyone who isnt fully informed it seems.

DeV.

Dave Joyce

replace sticks with live blades and does your stance change?

What is you motovation in asking a question like this???

Nothingcompares

Dave Joyce wrote: »

What is you motovation in asking a question like this???

My motivation was to see a better understanding of the basis of devore's (and using him as proxy, other people's) opinions on the subject of reckless body endangerment.

crokester

Nothingcompares wrote: »

My motivation was to see a better understanding of the basis of devore's (and using him as proxy, other people's) opinions on the subject of reckless body endangerment.

Kev. Uve got to be kidding!? "Reckless bodily endangerment?" A stick is as hard as an elbow, a knee, or a shin; all of which are planted at great speed on guys heads and faces in an MMA or MT fight.

SorGan

crokester wrote: »

Kev. Uve got to be kidding!? "Reckless bodily endangerment?" A stick is as hard as an elbow, a knee, or a shin; all of which are planted at great speed on guys heads and faces in an MMA or MT fight.

rattan sticks are not as hard as an elbow, but more a heavy bamboo.
bloody hurt though.:)

DeVore

I think its an interesting topic about the right of self-determination and the level of acceptible risk. From what I can see the Dog Bros are at the top of my comfort zone and probably a bit past it but I would be annoyed if anyone told me I couldnt go Snowboarding or rock-climbing.

However, I dont have children or a wife so I dont have "dependants". When you throw them into the mix, it gets a little more complex. I would still go snowboarding but I would have to say that anyone who recklessly endangered themselves when they are committed to being part of a co-dependant social group are just selfish asses imho. Its one of the reasons I DONT have a family in fact.

In MMA I think its a relatively safe sport believe it or not. Its pretty hard to do serious damage to a trained fighter before any referee worth his salt would stop the fight. For example, I would lay money that being a yachtsman is statistically a lot more dangerous then being an MMA fighter.

Risk is a graduate scale, everyone has their cut off point. I just think that we are too quick to enforce our points on others sometimes.

DeV.

DeVore

crokester wrote: »

Kev. Uve got to be kidding!? "Reckless bodily endangerment?" A stick is as hard as an elbow, a knee, or a shin; all of which are planted at great speed on guys heads and faces in an MMA or MT fight.

Yes, but thats why he upped the ante to swords, to test the "edge cases" so to speak. To find out where my support for self-determination would falter. Its a "thought experiement" (I hope!).

If I had changed my mind for swords or my argument became obviously untenable, then we would know that there is some difference between sticks and swords, a sea-change if you like, which would be worth investigation. As it happens, it hasn't really changed anything which in itself is a revelation!

DeV.

columok

Perception is an amazing thing. I don't get much of a chance to train MMA these days, training rugby instead, but before any kind of MMA league fight I'd be really nervous. Even when I saw say one minor injury out of 60-70 fights.

In contrast I'm cool as a cucumber before rugby matches. Now this season alone I've seen some horrific rugby injuries: broken legs, broken arms, chipped elbows, dislocated knees and so on. Yet I wouldn't hesitate about playing rugby next season.

JK came down to one of our training sessions and I put it to him that I wouldn't think twice about playing a season of 80 minute rugby games on two months training yet I wouldn't accept a fight on 3 months training. I've seen few injuries over 7 years of martial arts training and plenty playing rugby. So the real question is whether it's risk of injury we actually fear?

I would argue that the real fear is one of humiliation. It's easy to get lost in one of 30 players over 80 minutes but you alone standing just as yourself with nobody else to rely on - that's tough. There are no excuses. No bravado. Just bringing what you have with no hiding. The situation is (necessarily) real enough to bring the real you out. I think this is true of any worthwhile combat sport. Maybe this is true for any solo sports.

The difference I suppose with combat sports is that they're a great forum for people to deal with their natural aggressive competitiveness and learn to deal with their "monkey smash other monkey" instincts.

I'd agree with DeVore in terms of being quite libertarian about people's rights to do whatever (knives, swords, whips, tridents). I find it a lot healthier to see people participating in something honest and upfront like the Dog Brothers than doing something rife with self-delusion and fantasy like a lot of martial arts training.

You might question however in a society where people are supported by each other (financially) whether people have the right to risk burdening a society with injuries obtained in extreme personal development but I think that's a whole other argument.

Dave Joyce

I'm just back from a few days away with the family so I couldn't reply till now. The DB's stuff might look bad but AFAIK there has been no very serious injuries particularly when you consider what they do. If you look at the prison warden who had a back injury and came out unscathed and the fact that when someone is pretty much out of it, fights get stopped pretty quick, I think peoples chances of getting seriously hurt are very small.

So the real question is whether it's risk of injury we actually fear?

Good question. I played a lot of rugby in my youth and my son plays now which has really rekindled my interest but looking at senior rugby nowadays I'm inclinded to go Fuvk That!! too much chance of been injured BUT the amount of guys I train that have NEVER been injured in MA but have suffered fairly bad injuries in GAA, rugby soccer etc.

Kent Brockman

I would argue that the real fear is one of humiliation. It's easy to get lost in one of 30 players over 80 minutes but you alone standing just as yourself with nobody else to rely on - that's tough. There are no excuses. No bravado. Just bringing what you have with no hiding. The situation is (necessarily) real enough to bring the real you out. I think this is true of any worthwhile combat sport. Maybe this is true for any solo sports.

Its probably due more to the fact that your opponents objective is to inflict as much damage on you as he can by pounding on your head, bending your limbs and choking you:rolleyes: in MMA.

In rugby the objective is to score more points than the opposition, so there is not the same worry about getting hurt.Same imo would apply to all one on one non-combat sports.
I would chance my arm against the world champ in tennis, pool, snooker,chess etc,etc and even play have a kick around with world class footballers (and be proud to do it), and get totally hammered with out any fear or even thoughts of getting hurt----But there is no way I would get in a cage to fight with even a novice!

columok

Objective aside, I risk considerably more physically playing rugby now than I did fighting in the MMA league and yet I know which one would scare me more...

In terms of injuries per man hour rugby is way higher than MMA or even the dog brothers. This is true across the senior levels. Also with MMA you can tap to a choke or armbar or oma plata- it's acceptable and understood. You can't tap out of a double hit or being at the bottom of a ruck.

Anyway I know fine well how tough MMA is as a sport- what I'm arguing is that with the dog brothers for all the ferocity your risk of injury isn't necessarily what's scary. It's more likely to be the fear of putting your ego on the line and coming up short in front of all those people (and yourself). I have enormous respect for the DBs a bunch of guys who make no excuses and hide behind nothing.